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Star Field Of Dreams

stevehalestevehale Member Posts: 437
edited November 2012 in PvP Gameplay
If you build it, they will come.

The premise is that PvP won't get the attention we've been promised unless or until we get more people to play. Boot camp and openness about builds with new players are all well and good but doesn't this seem backwards?

PvP has been virtually neglected for years. It suffers from failure to be seriously considered in either long term or short term design plans. Almost every new thing introduced to the game has some detrimental impact on the quality of PvP. And yet this is the state of the game that we are supposed to be trying to sucker... er... intice new players to step into?

To what end? See who and how many can stomach this nonsense in hopes that one day enough will come along to warrant a complete change in some season down the road? I don't understand the logic that says this aspect of the game is very important to our overlords but also that they won't fix it until more people express interest in it.

But then again, they've been stringing a few of us along with promises and hope with little substance for years. Maybe it's just easier this way.
__________________________________________
Foundry: Yet Another Borg Mission
It's terrible but easy, and these Borg are way cooler than the mess STO and Voyager left us.
May not actually be "way" cooler or even "slightly" cooler.
Post edited by stevehale on

Comments

  • playhard88playhard88 Member Posts: 733 Arc User
    edited November 2012
    stevehale wrote: »
    If you build it, they will come.

    The premise is that PvP won't get the attention we've been promised unless or until we get more people to play. .

    Im agree with you, is ridiculus, how they pretend that ppl play PvP if they don't put any attention on it? Even they admited in a blog entry that "pvp sucks in he current state".

    If they want ppl to play PvP, give to ppl a reason for it, dosn't work in the other way.
    John Sheridan@playhard88 - FED Tactical
    Vin Naftero@playhard88 - FED Sciencie
    K'tan@playhard88 - KDF Tactical
    Argento@playhard88 - RRF Tactical (FED)
  • upyournacelles2upyournacelles2 Member Posts: 197 Arc User
    edited November 2012
    To be fair, I think we all know the truth deep down. Cryptic as a company can't just come out and say "we really don't care about pvp". From a business standpoint, that makes no sense as long as they are still making money at it. However, where I think they cross the line is when they make promises they have no intention of keeping.

    The writings on the wall.
    If it walks like it back and talk like a duck...
    Actions be louder than words

    All of these one liners are basically saying the same thing. They all point to the fact that cryptic doesn't care about Pvp. Let's look at their actions and history.

    Broken promises
    Can't keep a dev that will work on Pvp
    Inability to balance the game
    Won't hire a dev that knows how to pvp
    No new content
    Won't fix bugs that are detrimental to Pvp
    Money grab items targeted at PVP'ers

    Some of us have seen these patterns for years now while some of us are new and don't realize how long this has been going on. The question you have to ask yourself is how long can a company treat their customers this way before you realize that it's not getting any better. The answer to this question is different for each person but eventually it will always be reached
  • glassguitarglassguitar Member Posts: 427 Arc User
    edited November 2012
    It might interest you to know that both Borticus and Branflakes attended the first conference call for boot camp, and there is actually a lot of enthusiam from the dev team about fixing PvP, but they need to be able to show PWE that it is worth the investment to focus on it. Both Bran and Bort are PERSONALLY interested in PvP and are doing everything they can to get it pushed up the priority list.

    As far as your other points, cheese consoles etc. aside a lot of players need help with every basic things to be able to be enjoy PvP such as builds, keybinds and al the things we learn thorugh PvP that we don;t need to know in the "so easy I can faceroll it" world od PvE. You don't have to be part od theeffort but to downtalk the fact that a group of us are willing to give of our time and energy to help do what we can for PvP is just plain thoughtless.

    We cahnge things one person at a time in the real world, same thing applies here.
  • p2wsucksp2wsucks Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2012
    It might interest you to know that both Borticus and Branflakes attended the first conference call for boot camp, and there is actually a lot of enthusiam from the dev team about fixing PvP, but they need to be able to show PWE that it is worth the investment to focus on it. Both Bran and Bort are PERSONALLY interested in PvP and are doing everything they can to get it pushed up the priority list.

    As far as your other points, cheese consoles etc. aside a lot of players need help with every basic things to be able to be enjoy PvP such as builds, keybinds and al the things we learn thorugh PvP that we don;t need to know in the "so easy I can faceroll it" world od PvE. You don't have to be part od theeffort but to downtalk the fact that a group of us are willing to give of our time and energy to help do what we can for PvP is just plain thoughtless.

    We cahnge things one person at a time in the real world, same thing applies here.

    Did you happen to inquire why Borticus wrote using a bug which allows for Boff abilities outside of the design isn't considered exploiting or griefing?

    Why they won't enforce exploiting or griefing? Perhaps there are other parts of their own ToS they don't want to enforce?

    How about how that same bug has been around for years and it and others show up again after every major patch?

    Why despite claims of a fix in the pipeline, it still isn't after 2 patches?

    Why a team of fleet members PvPing don't get Fleet merits?

    How about why there hasn't been a Dev who's publically assumed the role of the last "PvP Dev"?

    How about the Mgt has said they don't want PvP and won't put resources into PvP?

    How every Mgt choice to weaken PvP has been made?

    1a. You know things like the previously mention reward system creating nothing but PvE grinds which are needed to improve PvP builds yet only available via PvE.

    1b. Then using PvE vs PvP playtime as a reason to justify lack of PvP investment.

    2. Lack of balance, varying degrees of P2W

    3. Lack of MMO scaled PvP environments

    4. No PvP foundry features despite requests for such since the foundry was in its design phase

    5. Influx of NPC pet spam

    6. Abilities which can't be countered (ie timeship's)

    7. Opening up FvF PvP instead of expanding existing cross faction PvP playability

    8. Gating KDF character creation by needing to make a Fed 1st and be leveled

    9. Never fixing the only Open system PvPvE environment after it's been broken for years

    10. Doffs and other items being broken for months if not longer

    11. Nothing to actually compete for in PvP win or lose it doesn't matter.

    12. Having the only means to do controlled tests (private queues) be shut down.

    13. Having little if any testing time on Tribble.

    14. Not having any power adjustments made the few times we get to test something on tribble.

    15. Zero accountablitiy on Cryptic's part in 1. identifying significant bugs, 2. informing players on bugs 3. enforcing the ToS for those who exploit/grief using said bugs

    I could go on and you may feel free to do what you want, but after putting up with a crappy product w/an EP who lies and teaches his employees to lie I will express myself as I see fit. Make no mistake it wasn't Bort who ran that "it's technically not an exploit" b.s. talking point out. It came from the EP bser.
    [Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
    Random Quote from Kerrat
    "Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
    C&H Fed banter
  • upyournacelles2upyournacelles2 Member Posts: 197 Arc User
    edited November 2012
    posted 10/16/2012 in regards to the temporal set
    We've said it before: All powers should have a counter and/or resistance.

    So, look for this to be updated in the future.

    Has it happened yet?
  • trueprom3theustrueprom3theus Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2012
    Well, it's good they can find time to fix scarfs and other TRIBBLE...
    Hear! Sons of Kahless
    Hear! Daughters too.
    The blood of battle washes clean.
    The Warrior brave and true.
    We fight, we love, and then we kill...
  • trueprom3theustrueprom3theus Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2012
    p2wsucks wrote: »
    Did you happen to inquire why Borticus wrote using a bug which allows for Boff abilities outside of the design isn't considered exploiting or griefing?

    Why they won't enforce exploiting or griefing? Perhaps there are other parts of their own ToS they don't want to enforce?

    How about how that same bug has been around for years and it and others show up again after every major patch?

    Why despite claims of a fix in the pipeline, it still isn't after 2 patches?

    Why a team of fleet members PvPing don't get Fleet merits?

    How about why there hasn't been a Dev who's publically assumed the role of the last "PvP Dev"?

    How about the Mgt has said they don't want PvP and won't put resources into PvP?

    How every Mgt choice to weaken PvP has been made?

    1a. You know things like the previously mention reward system creating nothing but PvE grinds which are needed to improve PvP builds yet only available via PvE.

    1b. Then using PvE vs PvP playtime as a reason to justify lack of PvP investment.

    2. Lack of balance, varying degrees of P2W

    3. Lack of MMO scaled PvP environments

    4. No PvP foundry features despite requests for such since the foundry was in its design phase

    5. Influx of NPC pet spam

    6. Abilities which can't be countered (ie timeship's)

    7. Opening up FvF PvP instead of expanding existing cross faction PvP playability

    8. Gating KDF character creation by needing to make a Fed 1st and be leveled

    9. Never fixing the only Open system PvPvE environment after it's been broken for years

    10. Doffs and other items being broken for months if not longer

    11. Nothing to actually compete for in PvP win or lose it doesn't matter.

    12. Having the only means to do controlled tests (private queues) be shut down.

    13. Having little if any testing time on Tribble.

    14. Not having any power adjustments made the few times we get to test something on tribble.

    15. Zero accountablitiy on Cryptic's part in 1. identifying significant bugs, 2. informing players on bugs 3. enforcing the ToS for those who exploit/grief using said bugs

    I could go on and you may feel free to do what you want, but after putting up with a crappy product w/an EP who lies and teaches his employees to lie I will express myself as I see fit. Make no mistake it wasn't Bort who ran that "it's technically not an exploit" b.s. talking point out. It came from the EP bser.

    That's pretty much everything I can think of asking the cryptic management... You can't have a big pvp player base as long as you keep neglecting pvp. They know it but don't care and keep dstahl us with "it's coming soon" theme. Lame!
    Hear! Sons of Kahless
    Hear! Daughters too.
    The blood of battle washes clean.
    The Warrior brave and true.
    We fight, we love, and then we kill...
  • stevehalestevehale Member Posts: 437
    edited November 2012
    It might interest you to know that both Borticus and Branflakes attended the first conference call for boot camp, and there is actually a lot of enthusiam from the dev team about fixing PvP, but they need to be able to show PWE that it is worth the investment to focus on it. Both Bran and Bort are PERSONALLY interested in PvP and are doing everything they can to get it pushed up the priority list.

    As far as your other points, cheese consoles etc. aside a lot of players need help with every basic things to be able to be enjoy PvP such as builds, keybinds and al the things we learn thorugh PvP that we don;t need to know in the "so easy I can faceroll it" world od PvE. You don't have to be part od theeffort but to downtalk the fact that a group of us are willing to give of our time and energy to help do what we can for PvP is just plain thoughtless.

    We cahnge things one person at a time in the real world, same thing applies here.

    It would interest me more if I could see something tangible that pointed to their words being somehow different from the lip service of the past. I also fully support the idea of players supporting players to make a troubled game better. I certainly didn't mean to sound like that isn't significant. It is! It's just more than a little backwards.

    If you build it, they will come. If it works when they get here they might even stay.
    __________________________________________
    Foundry: Yet Another Borg Mission
    It's terrible but easy, and these Borg are way cooler than the mess STO and Voyager left us.
    May not actually be "way" cooler or even "slightly" cooler.
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited November 2012
    Well, it's good they can find time to fix scarfs and other TRIBBLE...

    I wish my Bat'leth didn't cut my right arm off repeatedly while running. It's not that big a deal on my Fed, since I prefer the Naus blade - but I went to Gre'thor and back for that Bat'leth on my KDF. :)

    BTW, it's clear that PWE needs a means to monetize PvP before they will put any major effort into it. With lock boxes, ship sales for consoles, etc, etc, etc - being a primary means of making money from the game for them - it doesn't bode well for PvP when those things are among the list of complaints.

    If you want them to improve PvP, come up with ideas to help them take your money in ways that you're more comfortable with them taking it...

    edit: pesky typos/grammar - it's 5 AM, ffs.
  • edited November 2012
    This content has been removed.
  • havamhavam Member Posts: 1,735 Arc User
    edited November 2012
    p2wsucks wrote: »
    How every Mgt choice to weaken PvP has been made?

    1a. You know things like the previously mention reward system creating nothing but PvE grinds which are needed to improve PvP builds yet only available via PvE.

    1b. Then using PvE vs PvP playtime as a reason to justify lack of PvP investment.

    2. Lack of balance, varying degrees of P2W

    3. Lack of MMO scaled PvP environments

    4. No PvP foundry features despite requests for such since the foundry was in its design phase

    5. Influx of NPC pet spam

    6. Abilities which can't be countered (ie timeship's)

    7. Opening up FvF PvP instead of expanding existing cross faction PvP playability

    8. Gating KDF character creation by needing to make a Fed 1st and be leveled

    9. Never fixing the only Open system PvPvE environment after it's been broken for years

    10. Doffs and other items being broken for months if not longer

    11. Nothing to actually compete for in PvP win or lose it doesn't matter.

    12. Having the only means to do controlled tests (private queues) be shut down.

    13. Having little if any testing time on Tribble.

    14. Not having any power adjustments made the few times we get to test something on tribble.

    15. Zero accountablitiy on Cryptic's part in 1. identifying significant bugs, 2. informing players on bugs 3. enforcing the ToS for those who exploit/grief using said bugs

    I could go on and you may feel free to do what you want, but after putting up with a crappy product w/an EP who lies and teaches his employees to lie I will express myself as I see fit. Make no mistake it wasn't Bort who ran that "it's technically not an exploit" b.s. talking point out. It came from the EP bser.

    /Please hold the line
    PWE wants great PvP, whenever the Pandas have carried me through a match, i had soo much fun, I and the company i speak on behalf do everything in our power to make sure everything will be great. ...EH what questions, no sorry can't answer these, let me patch you through the proper operater
    /please hold the line
  • stevehalestevehale Member Posts: 437
    edited November 2012
    I'm sure that there are a number of ways to milk a PvPer without resorting to balance destroying gimmicks. Better game play begets a more dedicated and supportive player base.

    One of the biggest things they could do, short of selling respecs for EC, is lower the zen price to 50-100, add multipacks at discounted rates, and make them tradable on the exchange (like keys). Never mind the fact that respecs should be free until things are straightened out with bugs and description errors, but the cost is prohibitively high for a single character purchase. Respecs cost cryptic nothing so why not run it as a low price volume based commodity? Furthermore, PvPers likely enjoy the chance to respec more frequently than your typical PvEer. Folks think I'm weird for having fun trying new combinations of skills and sets but that's something that could be beneficial across the entire game.

    Why does there even need to be a specific money scheme for this specific portion of the game? Anything in the z store has appeal to just about every subset of the gaming population. PvPers enjoy new ships, they need the goodies from doff packs and missions, everyone can use more space for inventory and crew, etc. a specific scheme for PvP smacks of literal P2W gimmicks or even an expansion prohibitive tax on an already nearly inaccessible feature.

    All of this really boils down to accessibility and appeal. Things that work and are fun are more accessible and more appealing. Give people something to draw them in. Don't expect them to line up in hopes that things will get better.
    __________________________________________
    Foundry: Yet Another Borg Mission
    It's terrible but easy, and these Borg are way cooler than the mess STO and Voyager left us.
    May not actually be "way" cooler or even "slightly" cooler.
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited November 2012
    stevehale wrote: »
    Respecs cost cryptic nothing so why not run it as a low price volume based commodity?

    While I wouldn't say that it costs them nothing, I've always wondered about their logic behind the pricing. While the price need not be "low" - it's so ridiculously high as it stands, that outside of toons with single toon unlocks (odd, eh - how Cryptic's increased the number of these) - folks are likely just to reroll.

    Instead of saying running even with a 200-250 Zen price - they've gone about increasing the odds that you'll pay the higher price for a respec. Of course, with that gamble - they're also going to lose folks who say effit.

    It's the whole $2 vs. $5 marketing thing. A couple of bucks? No big deal. Oh, it's an Abe? Honest Abe don't play that... Hell no. Folks tend not to think about it, when they're getting nickel and dimed - once you get into certain denominations... well, they think about it. While $5 may not be that big of a deal to them - it's in the arena of where they might wonder where else they could spend that $5...

    ...and yes, a lower price on respecs would likely provide more income from PvP folks as they chase FoTM builds or change ships, etc, etc, etc.
  • redrickyredricky Member Posts: 1,004 Arc User
    edited November 2012
    Ray. People will come Ray. They'll come to Earth Spacedock, for reasons they can't even fathom. They'll materialize on the transporter pad, not even sure why they're doing it. They'll arrive at Admiral Quinn's office, innocent as children, longing for the future. Of course, we won't mind if you look around, we'll say, it's F2P... They'll pass over the money without even thinking about it, for it is money they have, and pew they like.

    Ray. Just grind the dil.

    And they'll walk out to the bridge; sit in a duty uniform on a perfect alpha shift. They'll find they have reserved seats with fleeties in a pre-made, flying ships they first knew as children and cheered their heroes. And they'll join the game and it'll be as if they dipped themselves in magic waters. The memories will be so thick they'll have to brush them away from their faces.


    Ray. If you don't grind this PvE you won't get passives or gear.

    People will come Ray.

    You're underpowered Ray. You grind now or you'll be underpowered and you'll lose every match.

    The one constant through all the years, Ray, has been Trek. P2W has rolled by like an army of steamrollers. Balance has been erased like a blackboard, rebuilt and erased again. But PvP has marked the time. This field, this game: it's a part of our past, Ray. It reminds us of all that once was good and that could be again. Oh...people will come Ray. People will most definitely come.
    ---

    "Hey Dad? You wanna have some pew pew?"

    "I'd like that."

    *cries*
    _______________
    CommanderDonatra@Capt.Sisko: ahhh is it supposed to do that?
    Norvo Tigan@dontdrunkimshoot: hell ya, maybe
  • dontdrunkimshootdontdrunkimshoot Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2012
    ^ hopefully this moves the devs enough to throw pvp a single bone before the new year, of 2014.
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