test content
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc

Time for a console change

devorasxdevorasx Member Posts: 693
edited November 2012 in PvP Gameplay
After some discussion and deliberation i want to open up a debate for a change to how consoles, which are offcourse purchased, could work to improve the current state of pvp:

That the console can only be used on the native ship it came from.

Its in effect on the Vesta, and on the Intrepid. Why shouldnt this rule apply for the remainder?
This will encourage people to choose varied ships then constantly flying cookie cutter ships. It would even promote tinkering with skills and abilites from multiple ships instead of the same old ones which will hamper pvp growth. Or are people too afraid too lose their payed advantage that they outright refuse such a change, even if it would improve the state of pvp?

Please do discuss :)
Co-founder of The Spanish Inquisition TSI - Cause no one expects it!

PaxOttomana: gawd mirror event is like fighting a tsi premade, they keep comin and comin!
Post edited by devorasx on

Comments

  • grindsmygears1grindsmygears1 Member Posts: 64 Arc User
    edited November 2012
    devorasx wrote: »
    That the console can only be used on the native ship it came from.

    ^^ this ^^
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited November 2012
    devorasx wrote: »
    That the console can only be used on the native ship it came from.

    They wouldn't sell the ships if they were not universal/semi-universal. It's why they made that change earlier in the year...

    ...of course, I left shortly after they made that change. I didn't like how much it looked like I was whining and crying about the P2W console changes.

    I'm still not sure why I came back - lol - if anything, it's only gotten worse with that.

    Still, I can't see them changing it back - and - I even jumped on the bandwagon. I bought an Oberth! /cough
  • thegrimcorsairthegrimcorsair Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2012
    No way this is gonna happen until they have Fleet analogs for every C-store non-RA ship, as this would faceplant their (already tepid) sales.
    If you feel Keel'el's effect is well designed, please, for your own safety, be very careful around shallow pools of water.
  • erkyss2erkyss2 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2012
    But than, consoles wouldn`t be so much universal then. I mean it`s not bad idea, but just an quick e.g. Some1 have bought a galaxy x, and now owns a fleet defiant and now he want to use cloak, but he can`t? No real point. Or i understood this completly wrong due to the fact that english is not my primary language.. :confused:
  • dalnar83dalnar83 Member Posts: 2,420 Arc User
    edited November 2012
    I would rather prefer if there was special console slots instead. And ships had various numbers of those "extra systems" to balance them with others. So even sub par ships could have advantage with these extra systems, while ships like bug would get none :P
    "Cryptic Studio’s Jack Emmert (2010): Microtransactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense. I like paying one fee and not worrying about it – like my cellphone. The world’s biggest MMO isn’t item based, even though the black market item GDP is bigger than Russia … microtransactions make me want to die.”
  • stevehalestevehale Member Posts: 437
    edited November 2012
    I think it's a really good idea. I suspect it'll be a hard sell to the customization crowd and the z store sales team though.

    Originally they were only usable by the native ship or specific ship classes (except the BoP which could carry almost all of them). They could go back to that so these things could be balanced more easily for a class of ship.

    Similarly, most of the consoles were tied to specific types of console slots rather than being fully universal. This way any player could use an ability they really liked on any ship but it came at a strategic cost.

    Any of these changes would greatly improve things because when theses restrictions were removed they really hurt things (for PvP, obviously it was a good move for customization though).

    One thing they never did completely was work these things into existing mechanics regarding shared systems and global cool downs. I think the speed burst console did a little with evasive a but that is about the extent. Consoles can be activated as many and as quickly as the UI allows which goes in the face of all other in game balancing restrictions.
    The consoles (or many of them) should in my opinion have their own global cool downs and ideally much longer individual cool downs to encourage more strategic use.

    One way to compensate players for increasing these cool downs might be to include some moderate passive abilities. The Theta console might add 5 to Engine power and 15 to Particle Gens for example.

    There are ways to sell products that are appealing without making them poorly balanced.
    __________________________________________
    Foundry: Yet Another Borg Mission
    It's terrible but easy, and these Borg are way cooler than the mess STO and Voyager left us.
    May not actually be "way" cooler or even "slightly" cooler.
  • shimmerlessshimmerless Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2012
    I like Steve's tack on balancing the consoles themselves with cooldowns and such, but honestly I'm not sure if we can ever go back to binding consoles to their respective ships (assuming that was how things used to be). Most of the big name consoles aren't even faction-exclusive any more, and there'd probably be all sorts of customer issues since many of the consoles do after all come from reward packs that had to be paid for somewhere along the line.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    vids and guides and stuff

    [9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
  • maicake716maicake716 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2012
    anyone remember when they were orginally like that?


    .... then they released the lower tier ships with consoles and all hell broke loose.
    mancom wrote: »
    Frankly, I think the only sound advice that one can give new players at this time is to stay away from PVP in STO.
    Science pvp at its best-http://www.youtube.com/user/matteo716
    Do you even Science Bro?
  • aetam1aetam1 Member Posts: 228 Arc User
    edited November 2012
    Lower tier ships are the reason that will never happen. You buy yourself a ship for a few lvls with the knowledge that you can at least use the console at max lvl. They can't justify the price otherwise.

    But it would still leave the option to bind the console to a ship class. Like AMS comes with a cruiser so it's only useable on cruisers. While I doubt they will change the consoles since it would mean many upset customers they could at least have some restrictions for new consoles they are going to create.

    Also I think the biggest problem of consoles is that they break the balance of counters. Normally you would need high lvl science slots on your ship for most cc abilities. That kind of limits them and makes it able for a team to carry a sufficient amount of counters. Now with the consoles every ship can carry additional high lvl cc abilities but no ship can carrier additional counters.
    So how can we balance this? What we need are probably things like more immunities after we got hit with something. Or maybe an increasing resistance during a match? Like each time you get hit by grav pulse you gain some resistance and the next hit will have limited duration, or something like that.
    Or just give us more counters. Might be the best and easiest way. Like let Aux to Struct cure grav pulse. Give some additional powers the ability to clear the effects of consoles. That would not really affect pve, the consoles would still be useful in pvp but we would have an easier way defending against it.

    Give us a chance at fighting the consoles. Who knows, if can build proper build to fight them the pvp community might actually accept them.

    My stomach is clear and my mind is full of bacon!
  • havamhavam Member Posts: 1,735 Arc User
    edited November 2012
    aetam1 wrote: »
    Or just give us more counters.

    That is just going to increase the power creep, Cc abilities are suffering enough. HE already clears everything, heals and buffs resists. Which means we need so much more cc to overcome the already universal counters from ensin BO, and one skill tree options counters all.....
    Penalties in terms of CD seem the way to go. AMS shares cd, with SS, JS, and VM. Additionally make them drain energy, or include other opportunity costs. How about: anti-matter will weaken your shield giving you an 25% bleedthrough for 10s after use.

    Together we this can balance individual consoles, cd's would be a start.
  • maicake716maicake716 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2012
    aetam1 wrote: »
    Lower tier ships are the reason that will never happen. You buy yourself a ship for a few lvls with the knowledge that you can at least use the console at max lvl. They can't justify the price otherwise.

    But it would still leave the option to bind the console to a ship class. Like AMS comes with a cruiser so it's only useable on cruisers. While I doubt they will change the consoles since it would mean many upset customers they could at least have some restrictions for new consoles they are going to create.

    Also I think the biggest problem of consoles is that they break the balance of counters. Normally you would need high lvl science slots on your ship for most cc abilities. That kind of limits them and makes it able for a team to carry a sufficient amount of counters. Now with the consoles every ship can carry additional high lvl cc abilities but no ship can carrier additional counters.
    So how can we balance this? What we need are probably things like more immunities after we got hit with something. Or maybe an increasing resistance during a match? Like each time you get hit by grav pulse you gain some resistance and the next hit will have limited duration, or something like that.
    Or just give us more counters. Might be the best and easiest way. Like let Aux to Struct cure grav pulse. Give some additional powers the ability to clear the effects of consoles. That would not really affect pve, the consoles would still be useful in pvp but we would have an easier way defending against it.

    Give us a chance at fighting the consoles. Who knows, if can build proper build to fight them the pvp community might actually accept them.

    thats why "class" consoles would be best. they could only fit onto ships that meet that class.

    like grav pulse only be usable on science ships, or AMS being a cruiser only thing etc etc.

    like it used to be...
    mancom wrote: »
    Frankly, I think the only sound advice that one can give new players at this time is to stay away from PVP in STO.
    Science pvp at its best-http://www.youtube.com/user/matteo716
    Do you even Science Bro?
  • aetam1aetam1 Member Posts: 228 Arc User
    edited November 2012
    havam wrote: »
    That is just going to increase the power creep, Cc abilities are suffering enough. HE already clears everything, heals and buffs resists. Which means we need so much more cc to overcome the already universal counters from ensin BO, and one skill tree options counters all.....
    Well I would introduce console only counters. Meaning the ordinary CC abilities would not really suffer. At the moment we need ET to clear VM. Now ET shares a cooldown with TT and ST. So very few carry an ET or have it ready when needed. That means we can't really defend against grav pulse since we are already short on ET. If we had another way to counter grav pulse the console would not be that much of a problem. Now grav pulse is only an example. If we put console counters on already popular heals, like let's say TSS would clear AMS. That means I could force to them to use TSS on someone who is not in the need of healing and therefore reducing their ability to heal the person who gets attacked.
    It would just mean almost everybody could counter AMS but it would still be useful to draw out heals. Also since TSS only gets a specific AMS counter and would not clear SS science in general should be ok.
    havam wrote: »

    Penalties in terms of CD seem the way to go. AMS shares cd, with SS, JS, and VM. Additionally make them drain energy, or include other opportunity costs. How about: anti-matter will weaken your shield giving you an 25% bleedthrough for 10s after use.

    Together we this can balance individual consoles, cd's would be a start.

    Shared cd would also be a way to go. And longer immunities after the ability hits you even if its cleared. Something like after you get hit by AMS you are immune for 30sec. One console is mostly not the problem, it's more a team spamming them.

    My stomach is clear and my mind is full of bacon!
  • devorasxdevorasx Member Posts: 693
    edited November 2012
    Wonder if Borticus can add some input to this :)
    Co-founder of The Spanish Inquisition TSI - Cause no one expects it!

    PaxOttomana: gawd mirror event is like fighting a tsi premade, they keep comin and comin!
  • havamhavam Member Posts: 1,735 Arc User
    edited November 2012
    aetam1 wrote: »
    Well I would introduce console only counters. /snip


    Shared cd would also be a way to go. And longer immunities after the ability hits you even if its cleared. Something like after you get hit by AMS you are immune for 30sec. One console is mostly not the problem, it's more a team spamming them.

    i don't remember when exactly, but Bort commented that because they want people to be able to combine console powers, shared cd for c-store consoles are not an option. Still, giving them Cds with BO abilities seem a possibel way to introduce opportunity costs.

    I really like immunities to prevent chaining.

    As for counters, I'm just afraid that having HE TSS and ST clear everything punishes cruisers and sci ships. People are already bitchin about having to bring ET, sorry you escorts can't bring all that alone. Maybe if LT.Cmd and Cmd level sci/eng skills were the counters I could see some use.
  • snoge00fsnoge00f Member Posts: 1,812 Arc User
    edited November 2012
    PvPers have great ideas, but they only listen to bean counters.

    How else do you explain the influx of nonsense consoles and doffs of limited utility to PvE, yet disastrous consequence to PvP? :(
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • bitemepwebitemepwe Member Posts: 6,760 Arc User
    edited November 2012
    maicake716 wrote: »
    anyone remember when they were orginally like that?


    .... then they released the lower tier ships with consoles and all hell broke loose.
    aetam1 wrote: »
    Lower tier ships are the reason that will never happen. You buy yourself a ship for a few lvls with the knowledge that you can at least use the console at max lvl. They can't justify the price otherwise.

    As much as the Idea of locked Consoles sounds like a good one these people are right.

    They released many lower Tier vessels with consoles just to sell them and if not for the console they would never have been bought by the playerbase.

    If they revert to locking them down then I wish to have a refund for my purchasing of the Qorgh at Commander level since the Bio-nueral warhead is now useless, refund for my purchase of Puyjag and the GpG, a refund for the Chi'Tang and its Subspace jumper console, a refund for the Ning'Tao and its Quad cannons, etc etc. The list could go for quite a while as the proposed changes would lock the consoles down to a Lower tier purchase that loses all value when you rank up to endgame.

    If one uses the console sor not is irelevant as a purchase was made becuase the consoles can be used on other ships as one ranked up and thats the only value said purchases had for most players.
    Make Fleet versions of said vessels that can use the same consoles as thier lower tier counterparts and it would be better than just locking them down all together on purchases made in good faith.
    Leonard Nimoy, Spock.....:(

    R.I.P
  • snoge00fsnoge00f Member Posts: 1,812 Arc User
    edited November 2012
    Yeah, it would be a cluster**** of epic proportions.

    Just not worth it even if it introduces some balance to the consoles. The headaches from giving refunds would not make it worth it to Cryptic/PWE.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • aetam1aetam1 Member Posts: 228 Arc User
    edited November 2012
    havam wrote: »

    As for counters, I'm just afraid that having HE TSS and ST clear everything punishes cruisers and sci ships. People are already bitchin about having to bring ET, sorry you escorts can't bring all that alone. Maybe if LT.Cmd and Cmd level sci/eng skills were the counters I could see some use.

    Well I would say since every ship can bring every console why should not every ship be able to counter it? Mind you I don't want them to be able to counter the Boff skills, only the consoles. I don't want to punish cruisers or sci ships, I just want everybody to be able to defend against a console and not against Boff skills.
    But even if you make other skills into counters, like Aux to Struct. Yes it can be used by almost everyone but it needs at least a lt eng station. That means if you want it use you might loose RSP. And with 2 EPtS you are probably full in an escort and can not carry something like ET to defend against VM.

    My stomach is clear and my mind is full of bacon!
  • bitemepwebitemepwe Member Posts: 6,760 Arc User
    edited November 2012
    snoge00f wrote: »
    Yeah, it would be a cluster**** of epic proportions.

    Just not worth it even if it introduces some balance to the consoles. The headaches from giving refunds would not make it worth it to Cryptic/PWE.

    Only becuase it goes back to something that Cryptic has pulled many times in STO, invalidating a purchase's value after the fact.

    Fix the issue but stop making me regret (again) the spending of my money on STO.
    Leonard Nimoy, Spock.....:(

    R.I.P
  • brickyardbrickyard Member Posts: 81 Arc User
    edited November 2012
    devorasx wrote: »
    Please do discuss :)

    ^^ THIS ^^
    P2W is Pay to Play for me, what else? Duh! :D
  • thisslerthissler Member Posts: 2,055 Arc User
    edited November 2012
    stevehale wrote: »
    I think it's a really good idea. I suspect it'll be a hard sell to the customization crowd and the z store sales team though.

    Originally they were only usable by the native ship or specific ship classes (except the BoP which could carry almost all of them). They could go back to that so these things could be balanced more easily for a class of ship.

    Similarly, most of the consoles were tied to specific types of console slots rather than being fully universal. This way any player could use an ability they really liked on any ship but it came at a strategic cost.

    Any of these changes would greatly improve things because when theses restrictions were removed they really hurt things (for PvP, obviously it was a good move for customization though).

    One thing they never did completely was work these things into existing mechanics regarding shared systems and global cool downs. I think the speed burst console did a little with evasive a but that is about the extent. Consoles can be activated as many and as quickly as the UI allows which goes in the face of all other in game balancing restrictions.
    The consoles (or many of them) should in my opinion have their own global cool downs and ideally much longer individual cool downs to encourage more strategic use.

    One way to compensate players for increasing these cool downs might be to include some moderate passive abilities. The Theta console might add 5 to Engine power and 15 to Particle Gens for example.

    There are ways to sell products that are appealing without making them poorly balanced.

    They should likely put a global cooldown into this game. That would make a lot of the bad things go away. But anyways.

    First big boo boo was letting the captains out of thier ships with captains powers intact. That was a no no. Don't give me that 'modular ship design' bull**** I was handed last time. Make captain powers inherent in the ship class. Continue to allow players to put skill points into whatever they wish. If you skill your captain to use patterns and manuevers and then put him in a science ship, you're TRIBBLE.

    This was followed with universal consoles. Some have suggested making the consoles specific to engineering, tactical, or science. Very simple and elegant solution. If they were also affected by skills to a greater extent, even better. And by that I mean reduce the baseline effect drastically, and allow skills to bring it up to where it is now. So we won't be getting a 'VunderKonsole' that allows a ship to do amazing things unless the ship has a slot for it, and the skills to use it.

    On a side note, how did mine dispersal and subsytem targeting end up in tactical? It is pretty clear that isn't where they were intended to be. That change had to be in beta at some point. So now tactical has them, is loaded down with hugely uninteresting consoles, and is pretty much just a drag to fit either of those abilities in.

    Anyway glad I could stop in. Many good things brought up in this thread! Nice to see.

    Cheers and happy flying.

    Oh wait. This wouldn't be the PVP forum if I didn't do.........

    ;)
  • drkfrontiersdrkfrontiers Member Posts: 2,477 Arc User
    edited November 2012
    devorasx wrote: »
    After some discussion and deliberation i want to open up a debate for a change to how consoles, which are offcourse purchased, could work to improve the current state of pvp:

    That the console can only be used on the native ship it came from.

    Its in effect on the Vesta, and on the Intrepid. Why shouldnt this rule apply for the remainder?
    This will encourage people to choose varied ships then constantly flying cookie cutter ships. It would even promote tinkering with skills and abilites from multiple ships instead of the same old ones which will hamper pvp growth. Or are people too afraid too lose their payed advantage that they outright refuse such a change, even if it would improve the state of pvp?

    Please do discuss :)

    Until they increase the number of ships available to the KDF this is a no brainer in terms of the intent.

    Essentially what you are proposing would relegate these unplayable:

    [Console - Universal - Plasmonic Leach]
    [Console - Universal - Barrier Field Generator]
    [Hangar - Orion Interceptors]
    [Console - Universal - Aceton Assimilator]

    Last time I checked that does not leave much unless you're in a carrier.

    I would much rather that remove all consoles period. Have EACH ship come with an innate built-in extra "special" BOFF power not console.
  • adamkafeiadamkafei Member Posts: 6,539 Arc User
    edited November 2012
    I wouldn't mind as long as it can be used on all variants of the ship as well. The Excelsior for example has two variants at two levels but only the lower lvl one comes with it's console
    ZiOfChe.png?1
  • paxottomanpaxottoman Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2012
    I believe they made the decision to move away from limitations on the use of consoles long ago when they made them universal to every ship.

    For all we know, next week the ablative can be equipped on an Engineer Recluse. I'd keep my lips sealed from here on, they just might do that lol.

    I mean just look what Borticus just said last:
    Would you all rather have cookie-cutter ships with pre-assigned abilities and equipment that leave you with no customization or choice

    He'll call this a "cookie cutter" thread, or confetti thread since we throw the words Over Powered around too often.

    Yeah, so that's what you're dealing with. Good luck!
    Turkish RP Heroes
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • snoge00fsnoge00f Member Posts: 1,812 Arc User
    edited November 2012
    Ablative on my Eng Recluse. :P

    Evil hands slap together in congress.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • upyournacelles2upyournacelles2 Member Posts: 197 Arc User
    edited November 2012
    I like the idea of ship type limitations. This would get them a bit more under control, but also give cryptic an out to do it. Everyone can still use their consoles they've bought still, just not all on the same type of ship. This still however would hamper their sales which I've never really seen them make a decision to do. It would probably help if we could come together as a community and say something like "if you made consoles ship type bound, we as a community would support these consoles" to let the devs know that a decision to help us out wont bite them in the a$$ so much from our end. We know the pve crowd would TRIBBLE up a storm, so I'm sure they'd like to know we at least have their back on the decision.
  • bitemepwebitemepwe Member Posts: 6,760 Arc User
    edited November 2012
    snoge00f wrote: »
    Ablative on my Eng Recluse. :P

    Evil hands slap together in congress.

    Ablative armor on a B'rel-R torpedo/mine boat.

    A far more evil fantasy for me.:P
    Leonard Nimoy, Spock.....:(

    R.I.P
  • aetam1aetam1 Member Posts: 228 Arc User
    edited November 2012
    paxottoman wrote: »
    He'll call this a "cookie cutter" thread, or confetti thread since we throw the words Over Powered around too often.

    Yeah, so that's what you're dealing with. Good luck!

    I don't think we use the words "over powered" very often here. Also the limitation to certain ships was only one suggestion. I don't think that will ever happen so we are proposing different things. I don't know if a dev will read that but it would be nice to hear what they think.
    I don't want the consoles useless or ban them from pvp. We simply are looking for a way to balance them to increase the fun of everyone.

    My stomach is clear and my mind is full of bacon!
  • bitemepwebitemepwe Member Posts: 6,760 Arc User
    edited November 2012
    adamkafei wrote: »
    I wouldn't mind as long as it can be used on all variants of the ship as well. The Excelsior for example has two variants at two levels but only the lower lvl one comes with it's console

    As long as this was the course I would have no issue.
    Though they may have to create some endgame versions of certain ships.
    Leonard Nimoy, Spock.....:(

    R.I.P
Sign In or Register to comment.