So...I decided to play some queues today, mostly Arenas.
Now, while I've been enjoying my B'rel quite a bit in Ker'rat, it's fun, a part of my mind still said to me that 'these PvPers are just overreacting about overpowered stuff, P2W, and so on'.
I was wrong, very, VERY wrong.
I won't tell my tales, but I'll just say my eyes were opened, and ya'll are quite right. I saw much of the very things you all complain about here, and for good reason.
So I learned the hard way, but at least I learned.
This PvEer turned part-time PvPer better understands why you all think some things are overpowered, and agree considerably now.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
There's no substitute to getting humbled by a p2w premade. It's no fun at all, but you get a better appreciation for how strong some combinations can be and why this forum is so passionate about preserving balance in our game.
There's no substitute to getting humbled by a p2w premade. It's no fun at all, but you get a better appreciation for how strong some combinations can be and why this forum is so passionate about preserving balance in our game.
Yes Kerrat is a good place to experience the best and worse of pvp in small bits. You can still get into a good fight in Kerrat. The kind of fight that reminds you how good the pvp in this game COULD be.
Then you run into some Clowns in the ques all running P2W Synergy builds... Sometimes I blame those clowns. Cause frankly most of them should know better... they seem intent on ruining our game. I mean if the PvPers with a modicum of XP all choose to simply not run the worst of the worst the pvp ques would improve a ton... and who knows perhaps more fresh faces would stick around. Of course in the end it is completely Cryptics fault. They don't and likely never will care about PvP in this game. No matter what a handful of devs say. (those devs enjoy PvP as well and it shows... its unfortunate however they do not call the shots... I would assume there defense of the PvP situation I am sure has to do with who signs there pay checks... not that I speak for them... thats my feeling on that)
Anyway... PvP isn't always a cheese fest... I hope you still que from time to time... evenings where there is a good number of people not being noobs it can be a good time.
About once a month I que into pvp to
See if there is any improvement
I get one shotted I'n ground pvp from full
Shields and health with a character who can tank
The hardest pve I'n the game.
Been blown up upon spawning at karett
Or total loss of power I'n 5 seconds
Pvp I'n my humble opinion is a joke and a poor
Joke at that I'n this game.
Many options are simply not available to cryptic
For end game content because it's so unbalanced
And there losing a lot of money because of it.
A great many players would pvp if they had a reasonable
Chance to compete.as long as pvp stays like it is
The number of people doing pvp will not change except
Maybe a few less every week
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
About once a month I que into pvp to
See if there is any improvement
I get one shotted I'n ground pvp from full
Shields and health with a character who can tank
The hardest pve I'n the game.
Been blown up upon spawning at karett
Or total loss of power I'n 5 seconds
Pvp I'n my humble opinion is a joke and a poor
Joke at that I'n this game.
Many options are simply not available to cryptic
For end game content because it's so unbalanced
And there losing a lot of money because of it.
A great many players would pvp if they had a reasonable
Chance to compete.as long as pvp stays like it is
The number of people doing pvp will not change except
Maybe a few less every week
Read my sig for more info on how to better compete in Space PvP.
Remember that it's a team game. If your teammates aren't helping you out against a group of people who help each other, you don't stand much of a chance against them.
Read my sig for more info on how to better compete in Space PvP.
Remember that it's a team game. If your teammates aren't helping you out against a group of people who help each other, you don't stand much of a chance against them.
I agree completely
My fleet is about 98% pve so I usually have to pug
My pvp runs perhaps one will come with me
But not the same one the next time. :P
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
My fleet is about 98% pve so I usually have to pug
My pvp runs perhaps one will come with me
But not the same one the next time. :P
Come hang out in OrganizedPVP, good place to make groups.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] @Aquitaine985 Lag Industries STO PvP Fleet - Executive
A Sad Panda of Industrial calibre. 2010: This is Cryptic PvP. Please hold the line, your call is very important to us...
There's no substitute to getting humbled by a p2w premade. It's no fun at all, but you get a better appreciation for how strong some combinations can be and why this forum is so passionate about preserving balance in our game.
In my time earlier, I don't think I was going up against any premade teams. I say this since I saw no teams all from one fleet. Could be wrong of course.
But yes, that's exactly what I saw. In one match, my team was going up against a bug. Not surprising in and of itself, but it used some things that have often times been talked about on here. Not just the fact it was a bug in the first place. Mostly Borg heal procs, and as far as I could tell, SNB DOFFs. Again, could be wrong on the DOFFs.
Even besides those things, we just could NOT kill it.
Heck, one of the poor pugs with me, said he never even bothered adding DOFFs to his ship, but would after the match because I told him they could make a MASSIVE difference in performance, as evidenced by our opponents.
Yes Kerrat is a good place to experience the best and worse of pvp in small bits. You can still get into a good fight in Kerrat. The kind of fight that reminds you how good the pvp in this game COULD be.
Then you run into some Clowns in the ques all running P2W Synergy builds... Sometimes I blame those clowns. Cause frankly most of them should know better... they seem intent on ruining our game. I mean if the PvPers with a modicum of XP all choose to simply not run the worst of the worst the pvp ques would improve a ton... and who knows perhaps more fresh faces would stick around. Of course in the end it is completely Cryptics fault. They don't and likely never will care about PvP in this game. No matter what a handful of devs say. (those devs enjoy PvP as well and it shows... its unfortunate however they do not call the shots... I would assume there defense of the PvP situation I am sure has to do with who signs there pay checks... not that I speak for them... thats my feeling on that)
Anyway... PvP isn't always a cheese fest... I hope you still que from time to time... evenings where there is a good number of people not being noobs it can be a good time.
I agree on Ker'rat. It can show the extremes, good and bad, along with the lesser things. I've seen both sides use their cheese. Siphon drones for KDF completely draining a poor Fed, or Danubes totally holding down a KDF ship, not to mention loads of DOFFs everywhere.
My little B'rel dropping tric mines might not be fun to deal with for others, but it's a far cry from the worst things the game has to offer. At least with a torp boat, I can't use SNB DOFFs on it.
My thoughts from that haven't change too much, though in that time I've gotten wiser about PvPing and the game in general. Even so, I still enjoy PvPing when I do it, at least when it's fun and fair, as I'm sure most of you all who are still here, do.
And that's the big thing: Fun.
PvP in other MMOs I have played, wasn't fun. It was annoying, it was frustrating, might've been balanced, might not have. The players themselves were usually much worse than the actual PvP.
So, my PvP is normally fun, as long as I feel I am enjoying it (Zamorak forbid if we can enjoy anything in the game sometimes), I will do it. When I start to not have fun anymore, I stop.
I chose to queue up to change things instead of only Ker'rat anymore, and enjoyed it for the most part regardless. But I got a little wiser today in better understanding everyone's reason for really disliking the true imbalance in this game.
Let's not even get into the wait times you have to go through without doing a premade vs premade.
And Jellico, I know how you feel, my fleet is the same, even then for those who do PvP, it's mostly Ker'rat (not that I blame them).
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
So P2W B'rel are actually counterable with other P2W stuff (that you don't have to spend a siongle cent to buy)? What's the deal with that?
A B'rel is powerful, but far from invincible. P2W, possibly, but far from the cries of much worse things. Even so, a B'rel can be countered by a slew of non-P2W things, even average, everyday BOFF and captain abilities. Even if it couldn't be, the tric mines I drop are quite vulnerable as well to a number of powers.
Besides, P2W is an overused term sometimes, true or not, the more important issue lies with overpowered or not, which there are quite a few.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
Couple notes... many long time players aquired there brels back when the brel was free to players with an in game token... that could purchase the brel the klink sci ship or the karfi carrier.... Only recently have they been cstore only.
Also the brel is no more p2w then (93% of the fed) (86.6% of the klink) ships....
Here is the list of NONE p2w ships if we are calling the brel p2w...
Klink side these 4 ships....
Hegh'ta - Qin - Negh'Var - Vo'quv Carrier
Fed Side these 6 ships...
Assault - Star Crus - Patrol - advanced - Deep space - Recon
If the brel is p2w then so is every ship not listed above.
To be clear that would be the other 43 fed ships...
and 30 klink ships.
I did not want to criticize the use of B'rels. They are fun ships, and probably could even use a slight buff.
But you need to spend Zen or have to have paid a subscription for getting one, which fits into the definition of "P2W", and that makes the original post's assessment somewhat self-contradictory. It's more a matter of balancing more useful ("OP") and less useful ("UP") abilties in the game.
Which might be addressed by the power revamp that Borticus had mentioned to be planned for December.
Don't be daft... you are well aware of what constitutes what the majority of players will agree is p2w... as far as people mean p2w to be an ugly term.
As I pointed out EVERY single ship you fly outside of the original 10 end game ships are by the same definition P2W.....
Think of it this way if it came on a lowbie ship you purchased for no other reason then to aquire a console that you could then put on your end game ship its .... p2w.
If you purchased a key or purchased a key from someone who purchased a key to open a box to retrieve a console from another box... or a ship from the same box... or you used your in game EC to purchase those items from people that puchased a key to open a box... Its P2W.
Ships that come from the Cstore... have in general been mostly balanced... until recently. At some point Cryptic sold there souls and started adding crazy consoles to end game ships as well, as extra boff stations and extra console slots...
The Brel comes from a different time when Cstore Ships where in general saddled with draw backs to pay for there uniqueness.... yes its true though before people complained about Vestas and Time ships there was the intrepid... and before people complained about bugs there was defiant... The Brel was complained about hard before it was even released and the inital versions where so terrible that they where a joke beyond joke... its only since the F2P change over that they where unnerfed... and are now only a slightly funny joke.
Anyway why am I arguing with you anyway... you refuse to ever see points other then the one you came in with.
Of course. But that is true for everything. Vent Theta Radiation can be countered by Hazard Emitters, for example. And so on.
But those items that could be, by some standards, seen as OP are distributed among P2W and F2P stuff. I mean, just look at Tac captain powers like APA an GDF, or boff abilities like EPTS1.
...
But you need to spend Zen or have to have paid a subscription for getting one, which fits into the definition of "P2W", and that makes the original post's assessment somewhat self-contradictory. It's more a matter of balancing more useful ("OP") and less useful ("UP") abilties in the game.
Which might be addressed by the power revamp that Borticus had mentioned to be planned for December.
Indeed. Overpowered, doesn't play favorites, you could say.
You have a point with me sounding contradictory in what I am saying, but the main topic of the thread still holds, in that my eyes were opened, and I understand much more the reasons why PvPers hold so many things in the 'OP' status.
On my B'rel though, I actually wasn't using it earlier when I PvPed.
I admit, a power revamp might be a very good step in the right direction for bringing balance back into the game.
Another point on the topic of 'P2W' is that there really is very few things in the game you can pay to win in the first place. PvP is one potentially, but PvE content, as is often said on these forums, so easy you can do it without really trying if you are good enough. Aside from that, not too many choices.
Season 7 might help, but even Into the Hive and Hive Onslaught as our new STFs, while more difficult, are far from being so hard as to 'require' pay to win stuff.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
But please consider: Your "OP" list might differ quite a lot from another chap's. "OP" is used synonymously to "something I had not prepared my ship for" by some.
Is there a set of objectively measureable criteria to determine if something is "OP"?
I suppose not, such a thing would require a thread here a hundred pages long or more to truly decide what 'OP' would be in this game.
Even if others didn't agree on what was OP or not, no one can be expected to have the same opinions as others.
My B'rel might be considered OP by some, and not by others. As I consider SNB DOFFs, there might be someone who doesn't.
Regardless, OP is in the eye of the beholder is the simplest way of putting it.
Again, point from all this, is I gained an understanding, of WHY some things are considered overpowered, not really so much as to what 'overpowered' might mean, that's all, nothing more, nothing less.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
Having dabbled in the queues a few times and run a few premades in a PvE build cruiser I can hold my own against multiple decent F2P builds simultaneously but the moment a lockbox ship even looks at me I'm done...
Having done this and established my playing skill (I know a few tricks to get the upper hand on some ships) I find there are PvPers out there far better than me but at the end of the day I agree that the game is unbalanced and the P2W stuff way out of sync with game balance.
I think they should balance PvP and having done that build PvE on top of that balance. That would make the game in general far more fun to play.
My fleet is about 98% pve so I usually have to pug
My pvp runs perhaps one will come with me
But not the same one the next time. :P
Like Aquitaine said, there's an OrganizedPvP channel where we're always happy to give you a working team. Even just having one partner increases your odds of enjoying the night massively, it's tough to stress just how big a difference teamwork makes.
So P2W B'rel are actually counterable with other P2W stuff (that you don't have to spend a siongle cent to buy)? What's the deal with that?
Which season was the B'rel at again?
How many consoles, I forget.
Hardly qualifies as P2W when you place it in the same category as the d'Kora, Galor, Jem'Hadar, Temporal Destroyers & Temporal Science vessels, The Recluse and the Orb.
The B'rel just happens to be in the c-store because it was always the intent for KDF to buy the unlock like all other c-store ships. Lockbox ships are P2W. Though, at this point I am on the fence about the Vesta. It's the first "Lockbox" class ship open to the wallet.
So...I decided to play some queues today, mostly Arenas.
Now, while I've been enjoying my B'rel quite a bit in Ker'rat, it's fun, a part of my mind still said to me that 'these PvPers are just overreacting about overpowered stuff, P2W, and so on'.
I was wrong, very, VERY wrong.
I won't tell my tales, but I'll just say my eyes were opened, and ya'll are quite right. I saw much of the very things you all complain about here, and for good reason.
So I learned the hard way, but at least I learned.
This PvEer turned part-time PvPer better understands why you all think some things are overpowered, and agree considerably now.
Nice statement, but i think it also deserves to be said that most of who you are addressing are just as guilty by complaining about OP stuff, and as for using them at the same time.
I'm very sceptical of whether PvP in this game can ever be repaired, if i look at my own list of things which should change, the scale of those changes are so huge that it's almost unbelievable to make PvP wealthy again.
- First everything should get a balance pass, which will probably take at least 6 months.
- They need to decide to finally make all ships equal which is most likely going to interfere with their cash grabbing algorithms. Obviously not going to nerf any lockbox ships, so buff all the non lockbox ships. I doubt it will ever happen.
- We need retrait tokens, never going to happen. People don't bother with releveling for some traits which are (in my opinion) quite important. Even if it does happen, it will be paid.
- We need some way to get free respec tokens, without it, and they do constantly *** up the skilltree, you will again need to pay your way to optimization.
- Ship p2w consoles need more restriction, only 1 pay to win per ship is acceptable. Not ever going to happen.
- We need new PvP maps to keep PvP from becoming boring. Seeing how much maps they've come up with in the last 2 years... you might see a new PvP map every 2 years? (Thats positive thinking )
- We need a simple Shield distribution Toggle button on the UI instead of everyone mandatory to mess with binds. As it is now, the whole game is way too complicated to even be viable at PvP. Some PvP'ers already stopped playing long before they figure out you can actually bind your Shield distribution on your spacebar or WASD buttons. Most likely never going to happen, these kind of 'complicated' things will stop 95% of the PvP'ers at some point because they are all being instapopped and rely on RSP.
- PvP needs reward system, we need PvP gear and a PvP vendor where you need to PvP in order to get fancy new stuff, including fleet marks etc. Never going to happen.
- Cap'n lulz need a total revamp, too much work!
- Autofire and stuff is way to much trouble for the beginner PvP to comprehend on how to even set it up, and after 6 months of PvP they finally hear from someone else that its much better to use since we don't live in Season 2 anymore where macro'ing your weaponcycles could optimize your weapon firing. Suddenly they do much more damage. Takes months for someone to realize it, before that happens another 95% already couldn't be bothered with PvP anymore.
- The only PvP weapon gear that has never been made available in game is on the exchange rather then a official vendor i.e. Memory alpha always crapped you up with [dmg] TRIBBLE etc, where prices for the best weapons are averaging at 100M ec, thats 10 times a normal free to play guy can possibly posses. and they tend to keep it that way, you realise that the only way to really gain such amounts of money these days is by gambling lockboxes and sell your fancy ships? Thats what they want you to do. They purposely never give any widely available PvP gear (mk XII [acc]x3) weapons because they want you to obtain money with selling lockbox ships in order to achieve your goal, if you didn't realise this yet.
- Powerlevels are set up like a total newbie would, they should change the 4th profile and rename it to auxiliary rather then 'balanced' All the newbies all need to figure out how the powerlevel thingies work and need to save them afterwards, I'm always so annoyed whenever i obtain a new ship i have to reset my 'balanced' 4 profile back to full aux.
- Doffs and MK XII purp consoles are also uber expensive on the xchange, and the only way to obtain them is the same story as for the PvP weapon gear story above, or do massive grind, literally EVERYthing in this game that is related to being good at PvP is simply some form of pay to win. There is absolutely no tradeoff involved like you play more and you obtain it with playtime, play less and you are a rich man you can pay with real money, they stated it like that in the new f2p system and yeh im sure it will go nicely hand in hand with PVE.
Long story short, first of all this game's PvP need so much time investement from the player to even get close to becoming a good player is so very huge, 95% of the players simply couldn't be bothered. If you only find out certain things like distribute shields which is vital for your survival in PvP only after 6 months of playing PvP itself, most people wouldn't even be bothered playing PVP that long they've already gotten battered dozens of times and gave up. It probably already has been mentioned before that the learning curve is just huge in this game for PvP, I'm pretty sure this will only get more and more extended to a final point where there are only 10% of the current PvP'ers are left)
In order for this game's PvP to improve, not just PvP would need a revamp but the whole game would have to undergo drastic changes which is simply inevitable, even if they decide to somehow 'seperate' PvE from PvP (Which I highly doubt will ever happen, they will most likely tell us that the 'engine' simply cannot handle it like they say about all kind of things.)
The saddest part about all this is how the community itself is even making the whole experience even worse, they all complain p2w OP this ability OP that. FaW, Spread, Trico Mines, Danube spam, and now TBR as I've heard.
90% of the PvP community simply abuses those potentially overpowered aspects all the time and cry about it the other day, its just sad. Even if in my opinion it's the players fault here which makes PvP an even less enjoyable factor of this game, part is ofcourse to blame by crappy developers which have absolutely no idea what they are doing. It was no bug, this is no bug. TBR buffed this much, is that a bug? I havent tested it but i heard it can spike people with 20+K per pulse. However, I still think that this PvP community and their players is the icing on the cake on ruining the already horrible PvP in this game, which is really sad.
Funny thing is, most of this thinking could most likely be affiliated with a crappy player simply being crappy
That's why the bootcamp needs to succeed. If people get over the initial hurdle of learning the basics like keybinds, distribution, boff configurations, then they will likely stick with the game. Especially when they realize that they're no longer as squishy as they thought they were.
It's why I keep pointing PvEers to my siglink. It consolidates most of the useful information in this game.
I will try the pvp channel next time I take my
Ship out for a spin appreciate the advice.
Balancing pvp could be very simple I'n this game
Using the point system from sfc3
Each ship is given a combat point value
A bug may get a 20 combat value
A excelsior may get a 7
The devs could look at each ship I'n depth
To assign a value to it
I'n the que the players may have a 40 point match posted
So only 40 points of ships per side can play
It could be 3 on 5
That's the only way I see STO being balanced because
Combat abilities differ so greatly between ships, doffs,skills, Boffs
And gear
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
The saddest part about all this is how the community itself is even making the whole experience even worse, they all complain p2w OP this ability OP that. FaW, Spread, Trico Mines, Danube spam, and now TBR as I've heard.
90% of the PvP community simply abuses those potentially overpowered aspects all the time and cry about it the other day, its just sad. Even if in my opinion it's the players fault here which makes PvP an even less enjoyable factor of this game, part is ofcourse to blame by crappy developers which have absolutely no idea what they are doing. It was no bug, this is no bug. TBR buffed this much, is that a bug? I havent tested it but i heard it can spike people with 20+K per pulse. However, I still think that this PvP community and their players is the icing on the cake on ruining the already horrible PvP in this game, which is really sad.
+1 times a million, I'll never name names but it's mind-boggling how the same people who'll complain about the queues and about PvP being dead or about this or that FotM mechanic are the exact same people who abuse them the worst. I don't know if they think they're being "ironic" or funny or not, and personally I can just live with it if that's how they want to roll, but it doesn't help the impression of the game that any new player gets when they decide to try out this PvP thing.
That's why the bootcamp needs to succeed. If people get over the initial hurdle of learning the basics like keybinds, distribution, boff configurations, then they will likely stick with the game. Especially when they realize that they're no longer as squishy as they thought they were.
It's why I keep pointing PvEers to my siglink. It consolidates most of the useful information in this game.
as idealistic as the bootcamp is, the game simply is fail when it comes to pvp.
its like trying to treat the coughing you get from smoking rather then quitting smoking.
One fast and easy fix to pvp in regards to p2w, is to limit the console usage. Either restrict 1 p2w console pr ship or simply and easy limit the console to the native ship it came from. After all the players should buy the ship for its purpose, and not just for the consoles sake.
But who am i fooling -.-
Co-founder of The Spanish Inquisition TSI - Cause no one expects it!
PaxOttomana: gawd mirror event is like fighting a tsi premade, they keep comin and comin!
simply and easy limit the console to the native ship it came from. After all the players should buy the ship for its purpose, and not just for the consoles sake.
If you open that up to variants of the ship and you have a deal. For example the temporal set is what gives the Wells it's power so allow it to work on any temporal ship. Or the Excelsior console (Now only sold on the CMDR version) leave that available to all Excelsior variants.
But please consider: Your "OP" list might differ quite a lot from another chap's. "OP" is used synonymously to "something I had not prepared my ship for" by some.
Is there a set of objectively measureable criteria to determine if something is "OP"?
Well, part of the problem is that certain 'preparations' require a 500 Zen respec. Others require managing to find room to squeeze in a Boff power to counter specific attacks. Some ships don't exactly have a lot of room to spare, because they're only viable in a certain number of ways. Classic example would be the good ol' Hegh'ta. My current build more or less relies on a combination of two Tactical Team 1's and an RSP for the majority of tanking, with TSS and EptS for shield recovery and HE for hazard debuffing and a small hull heal.
I don't realistically have ROOM to squeeze in a Sci Team to counter the sci-spam BS I come across, or the sci-based P2W attacks that get used like cheese. Putting that in requires opening a big gap in my TT coverage, which is what keeps me alive 50-60% of the time. It also requires me to sacrifice a boff skill that I KNOW I get a lot of use out of. . .there are no 'unused' skills on my Hegh'ta.
So, the 'just lacking adequate preparation' line doesn't cut it with me, especially since you'd be hard pressed to have a build set up to respond to every friggin bit of cheese that's out there (AMS, gravitic pulse, danubes, subnukes/subnuke doffs, general sci spam, etc).
My list of what I consider OP isn't TOO big. I don't consider subspace jump to be OP, for example. I don't consider Theta Radiation to be OP. Most P2W stuff is generally ok with me, they're items of reasonable utility (heck, I'm using two P2W items myself!). Mostly, I get pissed off at stuff like AMS spam the instant you shoot someone, gravitic pulses that render you helpless in regards to escaping/maneuvering, 2-3 subnukes getting stacked onto you, danube spam (especially combined with other cheap BS tricks).
My PvP toon is Krov, of The House of Snoo. Beware of my Hegh'ta of doom.
Comments
There's no substitute to getting humbled by a p2w premade. It's no fun at all, but you get a better appreciation for how strong some combinations can be and why this forum is so passionate about preserving balance in our game.
Yes Kerrat is a good place to experience the best and worse of pvp in small bits. You can still get into a good fight in Kerrat. The kind of fight that reminds you how good the pvp in this game COULD be.
Then you run into some Clowns in the ques all running P2W Synergy builds... Sometimes I blame those clowns. Cause frankly most of them should know better... they seem intent on ruining our game. I mean if the PvPers with a modicum of XP all choose to simply not run the worst of the worst the pvp ques would improve a ton... and who knows perhaps more fresh faces would stick around. Of course in the end it is completely Cryptics fault. They don't and likely never will care about PvP in this game. No matter what a handful of devs say. (those devs enjoy PvP as well and it shows... its unfortunate however they do not call the shots... I would assume there defense of the PvP situation I am sure has to do with who signs there pay checks... not that I speak for them... thats my feeling on that)
Anyway... PvP isn't always a cheese fest... I hope you still que from time to time... evenings where there is a good number of people not being noobs it can be a good time.
See if there is any improvement
I get one shotted I'n ground pvp from full
Shields and health with a character who can tank
The hardest pve I'n the game.
Been blown up upon spawning at karett
Or total loss of power I'n 5 seconds
Pvp I'n my humble opinion is a joke and a poor
Joke at that I'n this game.
Many options are simply not available to cryptic
For end game content because it's so unbalanced
And there losing a lot of money because of it.
A great many players would pvp if they had a reasonable
Chance to compete.as long as pvp stays like it is
The number of people doing pvp will not change except
Maybe a few less every week
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
Read my sig for more info on how to better compete in Space PvP.
Remember that it's a team game. If your teammates aren't helping you out against a group of people who help each other, you don't stand much of a chance against them.
I agree completely
My fleet is about 98% pve so I usually have to pug
My pvp runs perhaps one will come with me
But not the same one the next time. :P
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
Come hang out in OrganizedPVP, good place to make groups.
@Aquitaine985
Lag Industries STO PvP Fleet - Executive
A Sad Panda of Industrial calibre.
2010: This is Cryptic PvP. Please hold the line, your call is very important to us...
In my time earlier, I don't think I was going up against any premade teams. I say this since I saw no teams all from one fleet. Could be wrong of course.
But yes, that's exactly what I saw. In one match, my team was going up against a bug. Not surprising in and of itself, but it used some things that have often times been talked about on here. Not just the fact it was a bug in the first place. Mostly Borg heal procs, and as far as I could tell, SNB DOFFs. Again, could be wrong on the DOFFs.
Even besides those things, we just could NOT kill it.
Heck, one of the poor pugs with me, said he never even bothered adding DOFFs to his ship, but would after the match because I told him they could make a MASSIVE difference in performance, as evidenced by our opponents.
I agree on Ker'rat. It can show the extremes, good and bad, along with the lesser things. I've seen both sides use their cheese. Siphon drones for KDF completely draining a poor Fed, or Danubes totally holding down a KDF ship, not to mention loads of DOFFs everywhere.
My little B'rel dropping tric mines might not be fun to deal with for others, but it's a far cry from the worst things the game has to offer. At least with a torp boat, I can't use SNB DOFFs on it.
Thanks, though it's far from my first post here. I managed to find my first thread I posted here: http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=338991
My thoughts from that haven't change too much, though in that time I've gotten wiser about PvPing and the game in general. Even so, I still enjoy PvPing when I do it, at least when it's fun and fair, as I'm sure most of you all who are still here, do.
And that's the big thing: Fun.
PvP in other MMOs I have played, wasn't fun. It was annoying, it was frustrating, might've been balanced, might not have. The players themselves were usually much worse than the actual PvP.
So, my PvP is normally fun, as long as I feel I am enjoying it (Zamorak forbid if we can enjoy anything in the game sometimes), I will do it. When I start to not have fun anymore, I stop.
I chose to queue up to change things instead of only Ker'rat anymore, and enjoyed it for the most part regardless. But I got a little wiser today in better understanding everyone's reason for really disliking the true imbalance in this game.
Let's not even get into the wait times you have to go through without doing a premade vs premade.
And Jellico, I know how you feel, my fleet is the same, even then for those who do PvP, it's mostly Ker'rat (not that I blame them).
A B'rel is powerful, but far from invincible. P2W, possibly, but far from the cries of much worse things. Even so, a B'rel can be countered by a slew of non-P2W things, even average, everyday BOFF and captain abilities. Even if it couldn't be, the tric mines I drop are quite vulnerable as well to a number of powers.
Besides, P2W is an overused term sometimes, true or not, the more important issue lies with overpowered or not, which there are quite a few.
I have heard it all now....
Couple notes... many long time players aquired there brels back when the brel was free to players with an in game token... that could purchase the brel the klink sci ship or the karfi carrier.... Only recently have they been cstore only.
Also the brel is no more p2w then (93% of the fed) (86.6% of the klink) ships....
Here is the list of NONE p2w ships if we are calling the brel p2w...
Klink side these 4 ships....
Hegh'ta - Qin - Negh'Var - Vo'quv Carrier
Fed Side these 6 ships...
Assault - Star Crus - Patrol - advanced - Deep space - Recon
If the brel is p2w then so is every ship not listed above.
To be clear that would be the other 43 fed ships...
and 30 klink ships.
Don't be daft... you are well aware of what constitutes what the majority of players will agree is p2w... as far as people mean p2w to be an ugly term.
As I pointed out EVERY single ship you fly outside of the original 10 end game ships are by the same definition P2W.....
Think of it this way if it came on a lowbie ship you purchased for no other reason then to aquire a console that you could then put on your end game ship its .... p2w.
If you purchased a key or purchased a key from someone who purchased a key to open a box to retrieve a console from another box... or a ship from the same box... or you used your in game EC to purchase those items from people that puchased a key to open a box... Its P2W.
Ships that come from the Cstore... have in general been mostly balanced... until recently. At some point Cryptic sold there souls and started adding crazy consoles to end game ships as well, as extra boff stations and extra console slots...
The Brel comes from a different time when Cstore Ships where in general saddled with draw backs to pay for there uniqueness.... yes its true though before people complained about Vestas and Time ships there was the intrepid... and before people complained about bugs there was defiant... The Brel was complained about hard before it was even released and the inital versions where so terrible that they where a joke beyond joke... its only since the F2P change over that they where unnerfed... and are now only a slightly funny joke.
Anyway why am I arguing with you anyway... you refuse to ever see points other then the one you came in with.
Indeed. Overpowered, doesn't play favorites, you could say.
You have a point with me sounding contradictory in what I am saying, but the main topic of the thread still holds, in that my eyes were opened, and I understand much more the reasons why PvPers hold so many things in the 'OP' status.
On my B'rel though, I actually wasn't using it earlier when I PvPed.
I admit, a power revamp might be a very good step in the right direction for bringing balance back into the game.
Another point on the topic of 'P2W' is that there really is very few things in the game you can pay to win in the first place. PvP is one potentially, but PvE content, as is often said on these forums, so easy you can do it without really trying if you are good enough. Aside from that, not too many choices.
Season 7 might help, but even Into the Hive and Hive Onslaught as our new STFs, while more difficult, are far from being so hard as to 'require' pay to win stuff.
I suppose not, such a thing would require a thread here a hundred pages long or more to truly decide what 'OP' would be in this game.
Even if others didn't agree on what was OP or not, no one can be expected to have the same opinions as others.
My B'rel might be considered OP by some, and not by others. As I consider SNB DOFFs, there might be someone who doesn't.
Regardless, OP is in the eye of the beholder is the simplest way of putting it.
Again, point from all this, is I gained an understanding, of WHY some things are considered overpowered, not really so much as to what 'overpowered' might mean, that's all, nothing more, nothing less.
Sokath, his eyes uncovered!
Archimede - Leader and Founder of "Raiders of Starfleet"
...and 21 other characters!
Having done this and established my playing skill (I know a few tricks to get the upper hand on some ships) I find there are PvPers out there far better than me but at the end of the day I agree that the game is unbalanced and the P2W stuff way out of sync with game balance.
I think they should balance PvP and having done that build PvE on top of that balance. That would make the game in general far more fun to play.
Like Aquitaine said, there's an OrganizedPvP channel where we're always happy to give you a working team. Even just having one partner increases your odds of enjoying the night massively, it's tough to stress just how big a difference teamwork makes.
vids and guides and stuff
[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
Which season was the B'rel at again?
How many consoles, I forget.
Hardly qualifies as P2W when you place it in the same category as the d'Kora, Galor, Jem'Hadar, Temporal Destroyers & Temporal Science vessels, The Recluse and the Orb.
The B'rel just happens to be in the c-store because it was always the intent for KDF to buy the unlock like all other c-store ships. Lockbox ships are P2W. Though, at this point I am on the fence about the Vesta. It's the first "Lockbox" class ship open to the wallet.
Nice statement, but i think it also deserves to be said that most of who you are addressing are just as guilty by complaining about OP stuff, and as for using them at the same time.
I'm very sceptical of whether PvP in this game can ever be repaired, if i look at my own list of things which should change, the scale of those changes are so huge that it's almost unbelievable to make PvP wealthy again.
- First everything should get a balance pass, which will probably take at least 6 months.
- They need to decide to finally make all ships equal which is most likely going to interfere with their cash grabbing algorithms. Obviously not going to nerf any lockbox ships, so buff all the non lockbox ships. I doubt it will ever happen.
- We need retrait tokens, never going to happen. People don't bother with releveling for some traits which are (in my opinion) quite important. Even if it does happen, it will be paid.
- We need some way to get free respec tokens, without it, and they do constantly *** up the skilltree, you will again need to pay your way to optimization.
- Ship p2w consoles need more restriction, only 1 pay to win per ship is acceptable. Not ever going to happen.
- We need new PvP maps to keep PvP from becoming boring. Seeing how much maps they've come up with in the last 2 years... you might see a new PvP map every 2 years? (Thats positive thinking
- We need a simple Shield distribution Toggle button on the UI instead of everyone mandatory to mess with binds. As it is now, the whole game is way too complicated to even be viable at PvP. Some PvP'ers already stopped playing long before they figure out you can actually bind your Shield distribution on your spacebar or WASD buttons. Most likely never going to happen, these kind of 'complicated' things will stop 95% of the PvP'ers at some point because they are all being instapopped and rely on RSP.
- PvP needs reward system, we need PvP gear and a PvP vendor where you need to PvP in order to get fancy new stuff, including fleet marks etc. Never going to happen.
- Cap'n lulz need a total revamp, too much work!
- Autofire and stuff is way to much trouble for the beginner PvP to comprehend on how to even set it up, and after 6 months of PvP they finally hear from someone else that its much better to use since we don't live in Season 2 anymore where macro'ing your weaponcycles could optimize your weapon firing. Suddenly they do much more damage. Takes months for someone to realize it, before that happens another 95% already couldn't be bothered with PvP anymore.
- The only PvP weapon gear that has never been made available in game is on the exchange rather then a official vendor i.e. Memory alpha always crapped you up with [dmg] TRIBBLE etc, where prices for the best weapons are averaging at 100M ec, thats 10 times a normal free to play guy can possibly posses. and they tend to keep it that way, you realise that the only way to really gain such amounts of money these days is by gambling lockboxes and sell your fancy ships? Thats what they want you to do. They purposely never give any widely available PvP gear (mk XII [acc]x3) weapons because they want you to obtain money with selling lockbox ships in order to achieve your goal, if you didn't realise this yet.
- Powerlevels are set up like a total newbie would, they should change the 4th profile and rename it to auxiliary rather then 'balanced' All the newbies all need to figure out how the powerlevel thingies work and need to save them afterwards, I'm always so annoyed whenever i obtain a new ship i have to reset my 'balanced' 4 profile back to full aux.
- Doffs and MK XII purp consoles are also uber expensive on the xchange, and the only way to obtain them is the same story as for the PvP weapon gear story above, or do massive grind, literally EVERYthing in this game that is related to being good at PvP is simply some form of pay to win. There is absolutely no tradeoff involved like you play more and you obtain it with playtime, play less and you are a rich man you can pay with real money, they stated it like that in the new f2p system and yeh im sure it will go nicely hand in hand with PVE.
Long story short, first of all this game's PvP need so much time investement from the player to even get close to becoming a good player is so very huge, 95% of the players simply couldn't be bothered. If you only find out certain things like distribute shields which is vital for your survival in PvP only after 6 months of playing PvP itself, most people wouldn't even be bothered playing PVP that long they've already gotten battered dozens of times and gave up. It probably already has been mentioned before that the learning curve is just huge in this game for PvP, I'm pretty sure this will only get more and more extended to a final point where there are only 10% of the current PvP'ers are left)
In order for this game's PvP to improve, not just PvP would need a revamp but the whole game would have to undergo drastic changes which is simply inevitable, even if they decide to somehow 'seperate' PvE from PvP (Which I highly doubt will ever happen, they will most likely tell us that the 'engine' simply cannot handle it like they say about all kind of things.)
The saddest part about all this is how the community itself is even making the whole experience even worse, they all complain p2w OP this ability OP that. FaW, Spread, Trico Mines, Danube spam, and now TBR as I've heard.
90% of the PvP community simply abuses those potentially overpowered aspects all the time and cry about it the other day, its just sad. Even if in my opinion it's the players fault here which makes PvP an even less enjoyable factor of this game, part is ofcourse to blame by crappy developers which have absolutely no idea what they are doing. It was no bug, this is no bug. TBR buffed this much, is that a bug? I havent tested it but i heard it can spike people with 20+K per pulse. However, I still think that this PvP community and their players is the icing on the cake on ruining the already horrible PvP in this game, which is really sad.
Funny thing is, most of this thinking could most likely be affiliated with a crappy player simply being crappy
It's why I keep pointing PvEers to my siglink. It consolidates most of the useful information in this game.
Ship out for a spin appreciate the advice.
Balancing pvp could be very simple I'n this game
Using the point system from sfc3
Each ship is given a combat point value
A bug may get a 20 combat value
A excelsior may get a 7
The devs could look at each ship I'n depth
To assign a value to it
I'n the que the players may have a 40 point match posted
So only 40 points of ships per side can play
It could be 3 on 5
That's the only way I see STO being balanced because
Combat abilities differ so greatly between ships, doffs,skills, Boffs
And gear
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
+1 times a million, I'll never name names but it's mind-boggling how the same people who'll complain about the queues and about PvP being dead or about this or that FotM mechanic are the exact same people who abuse them the worst. I don't know if they think they're being "ironic" or funny or not, and personally I can just live with it if that's how they want to roll, but it doesn't help the impression of the game that any new player gets when they decide to try out this PvP thing.
vids and guides and stuff
[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
as idealistic as the bootcamp is, the game simply is fail when it comes to pvp.
its like trying to treat the coughing you get from smoking rather then quitting smoking.
Do you even Science Bro?
But who am i fooling -.-
PaxOttomana: gawd mirror event is like fighting a tsi premade, they keep comin and comin!
If you open that up to variants of the ship and you have a deal. For example the temporal set is what gives the Wells it's power so allow it to work on any temporal ship. Or the Excelsior console (Now only sold on the CMDR version) leave that available to all Excelsior variants.
Do this and I will support your idea all the way
Well, part of the problem is that certain 'preparations' require a 500 Zen respec. Others require managing to find room to squeeze in a Boff power to counter specific attacks. Some ships don't exactly have a lot of room to spare, because they're only viable in a certain number of ways. Classic example would be the good ol' Hegh'ta. My current build more or less relies on a combination of two Tactical Team 1's and an RSP for the majority of tanking, with TSS and EptS for shield recovery and HE for hazard debuffing and a small hull heal.
I don't realistically have ROOM to squeeze in a Sci Team to counter the sci-spam BS I come across, or the sci-based P2W attacks that get used like cheese. Putting that in requires opening a big gap in my TT coverage, which is what keeps me alive 50-60% of the time. It also requires me to sacrifice a boff skill that I KNOW I get a lot of use out of. . .there are no 'unused' skills on my Hegh'ta.
So, the 'just lacking adequate preparation' line doesn't cut it with me, especially since you'd be hard pressed to have a build set up to respond to every friggin bit of cheese that's out there (AMS, gravitic pulse, danubes, subnukes/subnuke doffs, general sci spam, etc).
My list of what I consider OP isn't TOO big. I don't consider subspace jump to be OP, for example. I don't consider Theta Radiation to be OP. Most P2W stuff is generally ok with me, they're items of reasonable utility (heck, I'm using two P2W items myself!). Mostly, I get pissed off at stuff like AMS spam the instant you shoot someone, gravitic pulses that render you helpless in regards to escaping/maneuvering, 2-3 subnukes getting stacked onto you, danube spam (especially combined with other cheap BS tricks).