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Pay 2 Win...what?
lillithiae
Member Posts: 0 Arc User
People talk about "pay 2 win", but what exactly do they think people are "winning"? By the devs own admission, hardly anyone PvPs, so that is essentially a non factor. And in PvE, no one gets anything better than anyone else for having a "better" ship or gear. So how exactly is this game "pay 2 win" if there is nothing you are "winning"?
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The most obvious effect this has is on PvP, where the best available gear is necessary for dominating.
But there is also competitive PvE content.
Someone who paid for a better ship, better gear, better weapons will likely snatch that first prize in a fleet action or warzone from you.
it let's people progress faster and more efficient than you, if you don't invest yourself and you will never be able to catch up by grinding and close the performance gap.
And P2W is a big factor why PvP doesn't gain much new players. Teh amount of ability spam in there puts off many newcomers right away.
PvP is dead and broken to a point where ripping it out has been publicly discussed twice by devs and while that doesn't seem like the direction we're headed, total overhaul is.
Fleet actions are eliminating "first place" in S7 and getting rewards for things other than damage. In general, damage and control are most of what people get more of. When you see high healing getting equal consideration in S7, the C-Store becomes, at worst, Pay 4 Role.
Efficiency? Sure. Faster? Enh. As long as most of the team has it, you still benefit.
And as noted in every one of these threads, you can earn quite a bit in game. And theoretically get any C-Store item.
I know that while I've spent an uncomfortable amount on this game, I've also picked up hundreds of dollars of C-Store credit from PWE surveys and by selling dilithium.
I think the more uncomfortable part of this all is the realization for some players that nobody can have it all. And money may help there but even money alone won't do it.
Why do you think anyone hardly PvPs?? It is due to P2W. But the problem goes back way further than that. How many PvP maps have been created since beta? Zero. When QA tests aspects of the game, do they test it out in PvE or PvP? PvE (i.e. SNB and SDO doffs). Basically, Cryptic has ignored PvP since beta, so you can't blame the player base for no one PvPing today. The P2W consoles without appropriate ability counters and lockbox ships that have better stats than in-game ships, further exacerbates the problem.
I AM NOT A FAN OF PWE!!!!
MEMBER SINCE JANUARY 2010
Oh thats easy: because it sucks. Even before they started selling what could be considered "overpowered" items in the game store, this game never had much of a PvP following, which proves that "P2W" wasnt the problem, it was the way they made PvP.
In general, I think PvP in MMOs is best:
- When everyone has a role aside from DPS.
AND/OR
- When it's team-based.
AND/OR
- When scenarios are designed with a narrative, guided arc to account for numeric and ability imbalances.
Some of the best PvP I ever played in online RPGs was largely a competitive raiding race where a few players could lag behind to give a boss an assist, akin to Alterac Valley in WoW.
Two bosses per side. Objectives along the way that influence boss fights. Summonable bosses along the way. You can lag behind to PvP more but doing so may leave your side undergunned against the PvE bosses in there.
I said that it exacerbated the problem and further destroyed what little was left of PvP. It contributed, but was not the direct cause. Stick a knife in a wound, but don't remove it right away and the victim's chances of living are increased.. twist the knife and the victim will probably die. The knife was no additional PvP content, no testing of items, abilities, skills, etc, in PvP environment. Twisting the knife is P2W, lockbox ships, etc..
I AM NOT A FAN OF PWE!!!!
MEMBER SINCE JANUARY 2010
Right now there is very little to actually "need" in the cstore other than more slots for various things
I believe this is the way they intend to get rid of PvP once and for all - Just how many new people are going to start to PvP when the older guys have the Best gear and the skills and all the new rep bonus+weapons/skill bonus
= NO NEW PvP Players - or they try a few times and say ***k this!!!
Eventually the old timers will disappear and that will be the end of PvP - a few will stay - just enough to keep destroying any newcomers - which will continue the cycle of new pvp giving up.
its a brilliant stategy by the Dev's to finish off PvP - cudos!!(This is my sense of humor - but sometime changes have unitended consequences)
I don't think it's brilliant to spend money on something they'd discontinue.
As is, if they wanted to go that route, they'd rip the band aid off.
I was kidding that they are doing this on purpose - I thought you would get my posting style by now - i will modify the post to say that.
However, you did not address the issue - this change to PvP - will it lead to the conclusions that i have drawn?
Considering the current dilithium/zen exchange rate and the abundancy of free Zen offers, once you've set up a bit of a contraband production/turn-in chain, you can pick up 2k+ Zen/week with ease.
/edit:
Good grief. What kind of crappy software doesn't reckognize Pound and Euro signs nowadays? Very 1999ish...
^^^^^
This type of thing has been stated as fact with EVERY Season update since the game launched. It hasn't come to pass yet; and there's still a number of 'old timers' that still PvP.
I agree PvP is in a bad state in STO (but, to be honest Cryptic has never really implement PvP well in any of their MMOs going all the way back to "City of Heroes".)
That said, at least they are communicating more directly with the PvP community on the forums; have been responsive to a few concerns; and are still planning to do a PvP revamp.
In the end though the fact is, PvP is not usually a big group in any MMO (just very vocal) as most major PvP focused MMOs (with the notable exception of EvE Online) haven't survived long in the Western market. (And no, neither WoW nor Guild Wars 1 and 2 are PvP focused MMOs.)
Even after this Season update, PvP in STO will limp along at about the same level it has since the 2010 launch.
PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
no.
the best pvp players in every game are already miles ahead of new pvpers even with the same weapons and equipment through simple skill alone. while its probably has put some off it has not brought the destruction of pvp worldwide.
not every game is played against these uber players. sometimes you even team with these uber players and suddenly feel all great as you crush someone else. its swings and roundabouts.
if there is a visible progression for new players to aim at then they can at least give themselves goals to aim for and hopefully get better along the way.
I agree, the Dilithium exchange is awesome (especially now that there's a Dilithium sink).
However, I will nitpick on the quoted statement a little. The following things are not obtainable without money:
- Collector's Edition perks (namely the Red Matter Capacitor)
- Gold perks (bag/bank/accountbank capacity**)
- Veteran perks (namely Fireworks and the Chimera)
** You can purchase extra capacity as both FTP/Gold, but the absolute maximum capacity is greater for Gold than it is for FTP
I dunno, I think CoX PvP was actually very decent if not great for that setting, especially after the Incarnate system was introduced. Now THAT was pay 2 win as f2p players were blocked from the entire Incarnate system *UNLIKE* STO.
Although STO seems to need a revamp of their PvP system, it is a double-edged sword for the devs to let us know if they are working on it: Yes = not hard enough, No = abandonment of a class of players.
At the same time, and I have said it elsewhere, but if anyone really wants PvP in a space ship setting, nothing beats EVE Online, hands down. I mean, STO should be working to beat EO, but the bar is set very high (imo).
Utter rot. I always hear this excuse trotted out by people who just can't be bothered to try/discover/experiment with builds and/or tactics. NOBODY is invincible (except the black knight)...
Personally the reason I haven't done as much PvP as I'd like is because there's never enough Klingon players in the queues to actually launch a game...
Devs have been quoted as saying that C-Store ships should be a bit OP, otherwise people wouldn't pay for them, then what is the incentive to acquire the lockbox/lobi ships (which some people spend hundreds of dollars to get because of the odds), unless they are even better. I would almost say that lockbox/lobi ships are +1 to Fleetships.
Other p2w stuff would be player classes that give players unique advantages, like the Cats ability to jump which if you've played IGE can come in real handy.
LTS, here since...when did this game launch again?
For example, progressing through the Fleet Starbase Tiers by eliminating a resource grind to get access to better gear. Buy Zen convert to Dilithium and the Dilithium grind is gone. Buy ship modules or keys and sell for Millions to buy those Doffs and items you need. So when you walk through the tiers you get access to the best Fleet ships and Equipment available. Same applies to the the upcoming reputation resource sink.
Being able to sell zen store items on the exchange has ruined the economy. But Cryptic like it because people well spend up big.
Normally in a f2p games it's free to be in it but if you want the best items you have to buy them.
What it requires is a superior or imbalanced items for cash only. Any item you can require for free, even hardcore grinding, is NOT a pay2win item.
One way of doing that could be say locking stf's for everyone who isn't a gold member.
An item example could be LTS ships ASSUMING those were the top of everything there is (which we of course know is a joke even saying)
This is 1 of 2 subjects where I consider sto superior to most f2p games and on the frontline against pay2win
Seriously how does the Bug fair up against the Fleet defiant - 1vs1
oh wow.. go fight an experienced pvp'er in a mobius, galor, or bug
I AM NOT A FAN OF PWE!!!!
MEMBER SINCE JANUARY 2010
Bug Ship versus Fleet Defiant
+1.5k Hull
+0.3 Shields
2 Lt. Universal BOFF slots
-1 Science Console
+1 Engineering Console
+3 to the turn rate
I love my Fleet Defiant, don't get me wrong, but it too is a P2W ship, that you or someone else has to buy FSM for with cash and/or own the Retrofit. Stat wise Bug ship gets it, in application with one player being more skilled and better outfitted its a bit closer to call. In truth, your talking about spending money here for about 10% better stats off the base Defiant Retrofit (minus the shields).
EDIT: Almost forgot, Bug you can also use as of Lower Half Admiral and the Fleet Defiant is only at lvl 50 and you have to be or get it from a fleet that has reached that lvl shipyard where it becomes available. I was using my Wells at lvl 40 and what a difference.
LTS, here since...when did this game launch again?
Further, someone w/high number of alts can bot doff mission if nothing else for dilithium. If you're a casual player grinding away you're competing vs someone who's could have over 30 accounts grinding away while they're off at work or doing otherthings.
Think about it:
1. 2k from turn in contraband
2. 500 for shipping off passengers.
3. over 1k Foundry daily (also easy to bot).
etc
They aren't working for this, they've just set up a bot and have 8kx30/day = 240000 dilithium per day.
Meanwhile if you casual you're at best 8-16k dilithium per day for 1-2 toons. Most casual players won't make 8k/day and they now have to compete w/the botters for the Zen.
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
I think the problem here is philosophically with the idea that time = money = a certain amount of skill. The interchangeability of these things is what F2P is based on.
That said, I have some nuanced views on the subject.
My big issue however is not with P2W but with the idea of time, skill, and money game assets depreciating in value at the same rate.
The underpinning behind why I think cosmetic items are a safer and more popular sell, even in games with little or no PvP is that they don't depreciate. Likewise why skill and chance based titles and mounts are good -- because they don't depreciate in value as fast.
Whereas I think players are much more okay with time rewards depreciating over time.
And that's my big problem with time = money = skill, as long as the game isn't open PvP centric.
And when it comes to PvP, I'm more in favor of pay for balance.
I have taken on galors and other so called pay 2 win ships before and sometime i loose somtimes i come out on top. nothing to prove they are any better.
also i forgot to add origionally, it can Only be pay 2 win if you actually have to pay for the items, grind enough dilithium and bobs yer uncle, i manager to buy a galaxy x soley from dilithium convertion.