You're still going to have to pay dilithium for gear if you want it.
And whilst yes, many players will have the Mk XII space and ground sets, most likely they'll want the 'Adapted' sets. And the new Borg sets (Mk XII) and quite possibly the Romulan stuff - this will all cost Dilithium - hundreds of thousands of Dilithium.
alright so they took away dilithum for the projects, but actually buying the items and i'm going to assume the costumes as well are going to require dilithum.
Do we have any idea the exact cost? hundereds of thousands of dilithum seems a little extreme and the opposite of what cryptic has said is the whole point of this.
i don't have any mk xii sets so i've been looking forward to this as a way to finally get mine since i had no luck in over 50 elite stfs. (not a single piece dropped)
You also need Borg Neural Processors at 10 per Mk12 item. Currently someone with 100's of edc's and 10's of prototech are getting 15 or so.
In what sense is that even remotely fair?
wow 10 per item. so my 5 won't even get me one. very disappointed there. and i agree this does not seem fair at all for anyone from people like me with very little to those of you with massive amounts of items stored.
Fleet Base projects still require (copius amounts of) dilithium.
Omega/Romulan stores still require dilithium.
Dilithium store requires dilithium.
When you can cash out 100 proto salvage for 230k dilithium today versus 8k on patch day, I'd say that's a fairly sizable reduction. If we were getting, say, a third of that amount in dilithium and some additional OM/BNPs, that'd be another ballgame. But right now as it stands, it seems like we're getting the pretty short end of a very long and girthy stick.
Fleets at least have (hopefully) many people donating so if you need to save up you can do so because other people will donate. and unless they add mk xii items to the dil store, i'm sure we all already have better.
And i agree 230k to 8k is a little ridiculous.
not sure what i want to do right now. the 5 processors will make mk xii a little easier, and i do hate elite so i'm tempted, but considering i'm going to lose all the dilithum i could make right now is making it a tough choice.
the Knucle dragging mouth breathers at cyrptic PW realy hate there coustomers it is quite Obvious now. guess what a-holes your cutting your own throats. You have realy pissed off most of us with your crapy sucky money grubbing assinine f-up slop fest season 7 I hope you all get a-hole cancer and phalic warts
alright so they took away dilithum for the projects, but actually buying the items and i'm going to assume the costumes as well are going to require dilithum.
Do we have any idea the exact cost? hundereds of thousands of dilithum seems a little extreme and the opposite of what cryptic has said is the whole point of this.
i don't have any mk xii sets so i've been looking forward to this as a way to finally get mine since i had no luck in over 50 elite stfs. (not a single piece dropped)
The current (revised) price that's been mentioned is 32,000 Dilithium per Mk XII piece (i.e. PSG).
wow 10 per item. so my 5 won't even get me one. very disappointed there. and i agree this does not seem fair at all for anyone from people like me with very little to those of you with massive amounts of items stored.
Fleets at least have (hopefully) many people donating so if you need to save up you can do so because other people will donate. and unless they add mk xii items to the dil store, i'm sure we all already have better.
And i agree 230k to 8k is a little ridiculous.
not sure what i want to do right now. the 5 processors will make mk xii a little easier, and i do hate elite so i'm tempted, but considering i'm going to lose all the dilithum i could make right now is making it a tough choice.
You're going to have to run STFs anyway to rank up to Tier 3 and unlock your box - each Elite STF awards 1 x Borg Neural Processor - by the time you open that box you'll have way more BNPs than are in it
The current (revised) price that's been mentioned is 32,000 Dilithium per Mk XII piece (i.e. PSG).
You're going to have to run STFs anyway to rank up to Tier 3 and unlock your box - each Elite STF awards 1 x Borg Neural Processor - by the time you open that box you'll have way more BNPs than are in it
well though that is expensive it's not as bad as i thought. 96,000 for a full set isn't too bad IMO. though i'll admit that it's still higher than it probably should be.
i'm planning on only getting a full mk xii space and ground maco set so won't be so bad for me at least.
i enjoy running the regular stfs as long as i have good people, it's the elites that annoy me since i have very bad luck at getting the items, and then just as bad luck getting good people to run them with. Though i'm considering leaving my fleet and going into a much more active one so hopefully i'd have good people to do runs with then.
and if each elite always gives you one, then thats not too bad. would be 60 elites for me. and yeah considering how many i'd have to run already. probably better off getting my dilithum.
Think i'll hold off until the day before S7 launches though to see if they make any positive changes here but i know thats probably not going to happen.
just transferred again with some more EDC and other salvage and came out with the same number 4500 15 24000. I am really leaning to cashing out. I would walk away with 471K worth of dilithium.
Keep the data coming, I am putting it all into an Excel spreadsheet and will analyze it with a Discriminant Function Analysis (DFA) to look at where the group ?break? points are. Please only post in one thread. Right now I have 49 of your transfers in here and I can see the following pattern for the tiers:
I want to start by saying that I'm a mathematician, but statistics are definitely not my strong suit (I'm more of an algebraist). That said, I'm curious why you chose a DFA for your analysis. This problem doesn't seem to really satisfy the assumptions of a DFA model.
To be clear, I'd love to work with you to develop the most accurate model possible. Please don't interpret this as an attempt to discredit you, or to create a competing model.
My intuition as to how to solve this problem was as follows:
Assume that cryptic assigns a "value" to each commodity, and that if your "total value" is in a certain range, you will be assigned the crate corresponding to that category.
Then treat the problem as a large system of linear equations. I'm not entirely sure how I'd deal with the fact that the "total value" is known only up to a range. I was planning on crossing that bridge when I came to it, but it's possible that it could prove insurmountable.
In any event, could you share your spreadsheet, so that I (and others) have access to all the same data as you do, in an easy-to-read format?
Alright all, I have a calculator working. Please be advised I only have 120 data points from what people have posted. That being said at the moment it is only ~80.8% effective.
just CLICK HERE and let me know how it is working.
Also, please do not stop posting your results. The more conversions you guys report, the better the model will predict.
If you have any problems let me know. I am not sure but I may have the stat software I used at home so I might be able to refine this further this evening.
According to the reputation system on tribble, you can convert 5 BNPs into 1000 dilithium ore (+5 omega reputation points).
So, I will keep 10 EDCs, atm worth 1056 dilithium. After S7 launch you will recieve 1000 dilithium in the form of 5 BNPs and "pay" 56 dilithium for 1000 OM and 5 reputation points (-> If the conversion system is not changed)
Huzzah!!! I have the stat package at home...so I can probably do one more update before bed. It is up to correctly classifying 80.9% now so keep em coming. The problem cases seem to be what I am calling Tier 1-6. That is where much of the misclassification is happening.
I'm going to keep raising the issue. Doesn anyone how much of the Mk X, XI and XII gear in terms of Marks, Neural Processors, Dilitium and Time? How rich or poor are we by letting the stuff be converted?
Knowing the conversion Tier levels are meaningless unless we know the prices of the gear in the Omega Reputation Store.
I'm going to keep raising the issue. Doesn anyone how much of the Mk X, XI and XII gear in terms of Marks, Neural Processors, Dilitium and Time? How rich or poor are we by letting the stuff be converted?
Knowing the conversion Tier levels are meaningless unless we know the prices of the gear in the Omega Reputation Store.
This is exactly what I am trying to do with the conversion tool (see a few posts up). And yes, there are definite Tiers of conversion rewards.
Does anyone how much of the Mk X, XI and XII gear in terms of Marks, Neural Processors, Dilitium and Time?
All of the following projects currently have a 40-hour duration. This is a variable that is under scrutiny however, and may change (they were briefly 2-hour duration on Tribble).
Mk X Ground Set (per piece)
Omega Marks: 250
Dilithium: 3500
Expertise: 1000
Commodity Price: ~6000 EC
Mk XI Ground Set (per piece)
Omega Marks: 375
Dilithium: 5500
Expertise: 32,000
Commodity Price: ~20,000 EC
Mk XII Ground Set (per piece)
Omega Marks: 500
Borg Neural Processors: 10
Dilithium: 9000
Expertise: 64,000
Commodity Price: ~40,000 EC
Mk X Space Set (per piece)
Omega Marks: 500
Dilithium: 15,500
Expertise: 16,000
Commodity Price: ~10,000 EC
Mk XI Space Set (per piece)
Omega Marks: 750
Dilithium: 20,000
Expertise: 48,000
Commodity Price: ~30,000 EC
Mk XII Space Set (per piece)
Omega Marks: 1000
Borg Neural Processors: 10
Dilithium: 34,000
Expertise: 64,000
Commodity Price: ~40,000 EC
** all of the above is subject to change!
Jeremy Randall
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
All of the following projects currently have a 40-hour duration. This is a variable that is under scrutiny however, and may change (they were briefly 2-hour duration on Tribble).
<snip>
** all of the above is subject to change!
It looks like you left off Borg Neural Processors for the Mk XII Space Set, or will they not be required?
join Date: Sep 2009 - I want my changeling lava lamp!
All of the following projects currently have a 40-hour duration. This is a variable that is under scrutiny however, and may change (they were briefly 2-hour duration on Tribble).
Mk X Ground Set (per piece)
Omega Marks: 250
Dilithium: 3500
Expertise: 1000
Commodity Price: ~6000 EC
Mk XI Ground Set (per piece)
Omega Marks: 375
Dilithium: 5500
Expertise: 32,000
Commodity Price: ~20,000 EC
Mk XII Ground Set (per piece)
Omega Marks: 500
Borg Neural Processors: 10
Dilithium: 9000
Expertise: 64,000
Commodity Price: ~40,000 EC
Mk X Space Set (per piece)
Omega Marks: 500
Dilithium: 15,500
Expertise: 16,000
Commodity Price: ~10,000 EC
Mk XI Space Set (per piece)
Omega Marks: 750
Dilithium: 20,000
Expertise: 48,000
Commodity Price: ~30,000 EC
Mk XII Space Set (per piece)
Omega Marks: 1000
Dilithium: 34,000
Expertise: 64,000
Commodity Price: ~40,000 EC
** all of the above is subject to change!
And this just confirms, that the conversion crates are basically worthless. What buys us dozens of items now gets us one or two after the conversion.
All of the following projects currently have a 40-hour duration. This is a variable that is under scrutiny however, and may change (they were briefly 2-hour duration on Tribble).
Mk X Ground Set (per piece)
Omega Marks: 250
Dilithium: 3500
Expertise: 1000
Commodity Price: ~6000 EC
Mk XI Ground Set (per piece)
Omega Marks: 375
Dilithium: 5500
Expertise: 32,000
Commodity Price: ~20,000 EC
Mk XII Ground Set (per piece)
Omega Marks: 500
Borg Neural Processors: 10
Dilithium: 9000
Expertise: 64,000
Commodity Price: ~40,000 EC
Mk X Space Set (per piece)
Omega Marks: 500
Dilithium: 15,500
Expertise: 16,000
Commodity Price: ~10,000 EC
Mk XI Space Set (per piece)
Omega Marks: 750
Dilithium: 20,000
Expertise: 48,000
Commodity Price: ~30,000 EC
Mk XII Space Set (per piece)
Omega Marks: 1000
Dilithium: 34,000
Expertise: 64,000
Commodity Price: ~40,000 EC
All of the following projects currently have a 40-hour duration. This is a variable that is under scrutiny however, and may change (they were briefly 2-hour duration on Tribble).
[/I]
Thank you for the information.
EDIT: I R IDIOT, 2.
I been asking for prices all week. And there were in the patch notes.
0
archoncrypticMember, Cryptic DevelopersPosts: 0Arc User
edited November 2012
Since we've recently increased the cost in Neural Processors necessary to purchase items, we've just increased the number of Neural Processors that will be allotted to players in the conversion. You'll be getting approximately (but not exactly) twice as many as you're seeing on Tribble right now. Numbers are still in flux.
The big problem with the conversion is the substantial dilithium cost where none existed before, and the conversions giving a mere pittance in terms of that resource.
And this just confirms, that the conversion crates are basically worthless. What buys us dozens of items now gets us one or two after the conversion.
Yep - right now I can buy 7 pieces of Mk XII ground or space gear with my Proto Tech - that doesn't even touch on what I can buy with the 150 EDCs, 40 Proto Salvage and 52 Rare Salvage.
My box on Tribble nets me 3000 Marks, 13 BNPs and 4000 Dilithium. Even assuming I actually get 26 BNPs (which it seems, I won't) I can buy precisely 2 pieces of Mk XII ground or space with its contents (and I'll have to pay Dilithium on top since the quantity in the box doesn't cover it).
Disgraceful.
*Edit* based on what I've got and the costs listed - to have 'comparative' (though still lesser) value from this crate I would expect to receive:
6750 Omega Marks
70 Borg Neural Processors
173,000 Dilithium (which should be refined)
= 3 x Mk XI Space, 2 x Mk XII Space 5 x Mk XII Ground.
That still doesn't take into account the value of the Rare and Proto Salvage (just the Tech and EDCs). All talk of retaining our 'purchasing power' is quite simply a bare-faced lie.
Since we've recently increased the cost in Neural Processors necessary to purchase items, we've just increased the number of Neural Processors that will be allotted to players in the conversion.
But you see this is the problem. You increase the award (thank you) but you also indicate you've increased the base cost model too. Frankly IMHO, this means both long standing high balance STF vererans and newly minted F2P STF novices are both completely screwed. The newbies have to work harder to amass more BNPs and the veterans get nothing tangible as their increased award is offset by the increased cost needs.
Now if you were to also say "we've recently increased the amount of BPNs awarded for various activites, etc, blah blah blah ..." you see then at least both new and vet players know the BNP grind has been balanced, not simply increased for the sake of deluding players in their conversion values.
All of the following projects currently have a 40-hour duration. This is a variable that is under scrutiny however, and may change (they were briefly 2-hour duration on Tribble).
** all of the above is subject to change!
Wait, what?
After we pay for the piece of gear, we have to wait 40 hours to receive it? How is that fun?
Each new tidbit makes things even more ridiculous.
Comments
alright so they took away dilithum for the projects, but actually buying the items and i'm going to assume the costumes as well are going to require dilithum.
Do we have any idea the exact cost? hundereds of thousands of dilithum seems a little extreme and the opposite of what cryptic has said is the whole point of this.
i don't have any mk xii sets so i've been looking forward to this as a way to finally get mine since i had no luck in over 50 elite stfs. (not a single piece dropped)
wow 10 per item. so my 5 won't even get me one. very disappointed there. and i agree this does not seem fair at all for anyone from people like me with very little to those of you with massive amounts of items stored.
Fleets at least have (hopefully) many people donating so if you need to save up you can do so because other people will donate. and unless they add mk xii items to the dil store, i'm sure we all already have better.
And i agree 230k to 8k is a little ridiculous.
not sure what i want to do right now. the 5 processors will make mk xii a little easier, and i do hate elite so i'm tempted, but considering i'm going to lose all the dilithum i could make right now is making it a tough choice.
The current (revised) price that's been mentioned is 32,000 Dilithium per Mk XII piece (i.e. PSG).
You're going to have to run STFs anyway to rank up to Tier 3 and unlock your box - each Elite STF awards 1 x Borg Neural Processor - by the time you open that box you'll have way more BNPs than are in it
well though that is expensive it's not as bad as i thought. 96,000 for a full set isn't too bad IMO. though i'll admit that it's still higher than it probably should be.
i'm planning on only getting a full mk xii space and ground maco set so won't be so bad for me at least.
i enjoy running the regular stfs as long as i have good people, it's the elites that annoy me since i have very bad luck at getting the items, and then just as bad luck getting good people to run them with. Though i'm considering leaving my fleet and going into a much more active one so hopefully i'd have good people to do runs with then.
and if each elite always gives you one, then thats not too bad. would be 60 elites for me. and yeah considering how many i'd have to run already. probably better off getting my dilithum.
Think i'll hold off until the day before S7 launches though to see if they make any positive changes here but i know thats probably not going to happen.
I want to start by saying that I'm a mathematician, but statistics are definitely not my strong suit (I'm more of an algebraist). That said, I'm curious why you chose a DFA for your analysis. This problem doesn't seem to really satisfy the assumptions of a DFA model.
To be clear, I'd love to work with you to develop the most accurate model possible. Please don't interpret this as an attempt to discredit you, or to create a competing model.
My intuition as to how to solve this problem was as follows:
Assume that cryptic assigns a "value" to each commodity, and that if your "total value" is in a certain range, you will be assigned the crate corresponding to that category.
Set the value of an EDC to 1.
Make some assumptions, such as:
Value(EDC)<Value(Mk10Req)=Value(Rare Salvage) <=Value(Proto Salvage)=Value(Mk12Req)
Value(Mk11Req)=2*Value(Rare Salvage)
Value(EDC)<Value(Mk10tech)<=Value(Mk11Tech)<=Value(Mk11Tech)
Value(some level tech)=Value(Corresponding requisition)
Then treat the problem as a large system of linear equations. I'm not entirely sure how I'd deal with the fact that the "total value" is known only up to a range. I was planning on crossing that bridge when I came to it, but it's possible that it could prove insurmountable.
In any event, could you share your spreadsheet, so that I (and others) have access to all the same data as you do, in an easy-to-read format?
just CLICK HERE and let me know how it is working.
Also, please do not stop posting your results. The more conversions you guys report, the better the model will predict.
If you have any problems let me know. I am not sure but I may have the stat software I used at home so I might be able to refine this further this evening.
;... old stf rewards ...; ;... info from the crate ...;
In detail:
edc;rare salvage;proto salvage;rare tech;proto tech; ;OM;BNP;Dilithium
Old tribble toon receives:
287;52;51;17;08; ;3500;15;04000
Test runs with current toon:
449;74;75;24;13; ;4000;15;16000
449;74;25;24;13; ;4000;15;16000
449;25;25;24;13; ;4000;15;16000
449;00;00;24;13; ;4000;15;16000
449;00;00;10;13; ;3500;15;08000
449;00;00;00;13; ;3500;15;08000
449;00;00;00;05; ;3500;15;08000
449;00;00;00;00; ;3500;15;08000
349;00;00;00;00; ;3500;13;04000
249;00;00;00;00; ;3000;13;04000
149;00;00;00;00; ;2500;11;03000
049;00;00;00;00; ;1500;07;01000
029;00;00;00;00; ;1500;07;01000
019;00;00;00;00; ;1000;05;00000
013;00;00;00;00; ;1000;05;00000
012;00;00;00;00; ;1000;05;00000
011;00;00;00;00; ;1000;05;00000
010;00;00;00;00; ;1000;05;00000
009;00;00;00;00; ;0500;03;00000
According to the reputation system on tribble, you can convert 5 BNPs into 1000 dilithium ore (+5 omega reputation points).
So, I will keep 10 EDCs, atm worth 1056 dilithium. After S7 launch you will recieve 1000 dilithium in the form of 5 BNPs and "pay" 56 dilithium for 1000 OM and 5 reputation points (-> If the conversion system is not changed)
(note I posted this earlier already)
53EDCs, 5 Rare Borg Salvage, 47 Prototype Borg Salvage,
1 Prototype Shield Tech, 1 Prototype Engine Tech, 1 Prototype Deflector Tech,
1 Prototype Weapon Tech
turned into: 2500 OM, 11 BNP, 3000 Dil
(new)
51EDCs, 5 Rare Borg Salvage, 47 Prototype Borg Salvage,
1 Prototype Shield Tech, 1 Prototype Engine Tech, 1 Prototype Deflector Tech,
1 Prototype Weapon Tech
so 2 EDCs less means: 2000 OM, 9 BNP, 2000 Dil
Vornek@oberlerchner123 - Join Date: July 2008
Knowing the conversion Tier levels are meaningless unless we know the prices of the gear in the Omega Reputation Store.
This is exactly what I am trying to do with the conversion tool (see a few posts up). And yes, there are definite Tiers of conversion rewards.
All of the following projects currently have a 40-hour duration. This is a variable that is under scrutiny however, and may change (they were briefly 2-hour duration on Tribble).
Mk X Ground Set (per piece)
Omega Marks: 250
Dilithium: 3500
Expertise: 1000
Commodity Price: ~6000 EC
Mk XI Ground Set (per piece)
Omega Marks: 375
Dilithium: 5500
Expertise: 32,000
Commodity Price: ~20,000 EC
Mk XII Ground Set (per piece)
Omega Marks: 500
Borg Neural Processors: 10
Dilithium: 9000
Expertise: 64,000
Commodity Price: ~40,000 EC
Mk X Space Set (per piece)
Omega Marks: 500
Dilithium: 15,500
Expertise: 16,000
Commodity Price: ~10,000 EC
Mk XI Space Set (per piece)
Omega Marks: 750
Dilithium: 20,000
Expertise: 48,000
Commodity Price: ~30,000 EC
Mk XII Space Set (per piece)
Omega Marks: 1000
Borg Neural Processors: 10
Dilithium: 34,000
Expertise: 64,000
Commodity Price: ~40,000 EC
** all of the above is subject to change!
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
It looks like you left off Borg Neural Processors for the Mk XII Space Set, or will they not be required?
And this just confirms, that the conversion crates are basically worthless. What buys us dozens of items now gets us one or two after the conversion.
My bad. 10 BNP are also required. I will edit my post.
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
On Tribble this converted to equal: 8000 Omega Marks, 15 BNPs, 56K dilith.
Everyone who suggested convert NOW! you were right!
nice I am running on tribble see what i get
Not really, unlike in the original dilithium conversion, there will be no refined dilithium entering the economy, only ore....
Thank you for the information.
EDIT: I R IDIOT, 2.
I been asking for prices all week. And there were in the patch notes.
Yep - right now I can buy 7 pieces of Mk XII ground or space gear with my Proto Tech - that doesn't even touch on what I can buy with the 150 EDCs, 40 Proto Salvage and 52 Rare Salvage.
My box on Tribble nets me 3000 Marks, 13 BNPs and 4000 Dilithium. Even assuming I actually get 26 BNPs (which it seems, I won't) I can buy precisely 2 pieces of Mk XII ground or space with its contents (and I'll have to pay Dilithium on top since the quantity in the box doesn't cover it).
Disgraceful.
*Edit* based on what I've got and the costs listed - to have 'comparative' (though still lesser) value from this crate I would expect to receive:
6750 Omega Marks
70 Borg Neural Processors
173,000 Dilithium (which should be refined)
= 3 x Mk XI Space, 2 x Mk XII Space 5 x Mk XII Ground.
That still doesn't take into account the value of the Rare and Proto Salvage (just the Tech and EDCs). All talk of retaining our 'purchasing power' is quite simply a bare-faced lie.
Formerly redleader - Real join date is July 2008
But you see this is the problem. You increase the award (thank you) but you also indicate you've increased the base cost model too. Frankly IMHO, this means both long standing high balance STF vererans and newly minted F2P STF novices are both completely screwed. The newbies have to work harder to amass more BNPs and the veterans get nothing tangible as their increased award is offset by the increased cost needs.
Now if you were to also say "we've recently increased the amount of BPNs awarded for various activites, etc, blah blah blah ..." you see then at least both new and vet players know the BNP grind has been balanced, not simply increased for the sake of deluding players in their conversion values.
Wait, what?
After we pay for the piece of gear, we have to wait 40 hours to receive it? How is that fun?
Each new tidbit makes things even more ridiculous.