Setting aside the issue of the Vesta, which may or may not break everything (I'm not jumping on that gravy train):
Wells TSV has:
30,000 hull
1.45 shield modifier
250 crew
15 turn rate
3 tac, 3 eng, 4 sci consoles
+15 Aux power
Temporal Backstep
Lt. Cmdr Uni
Lt. Uni
Ens. Eng.
Cmdr. Sci
Lt. Sci
Tholian Orb Weaver has:
30,000 hull
1.4 shield modifier
1200 crew
9 turn
3 tac, 3 eng, 4 sci consoles
+15 Aux power
Tholian Web Generator
Lt. Cmdr. Uni
Ens. Tac
Lt. Cmdr. Eng.
Cmdr. Sci
Ens. Si
In a way, I think the Wells is a great deal more versatile. They share the same bonus to Aux and the same console layout, but the Wells has a much higher turn rate and slightly higher shield modifier. I would also say that the Wells console is more beneficial than that of the Orb Weaver; the Wells console is a free hull and shield heal, while the Orb Weaver's console is... of dubious use as far as I can tell.
(Note: I have the Wells, but not the Orb Weaver).
I personally use the Wells with my tactical captain, and use both universal boffs as tactical boffs. With the high turn rate and good tactical boff setup available, this makes the Wells a pretty potent little ship. But of course you don't have to do that, and that's the benefit of the Wells.
Both ships share a science commander slot (obviously, as science ships). So then it all boils down to what else you want to do with it. The Orb Weaver has the potential to be a much better tank- you can slot in two engineering Lt. Cmdrs- while the Wells has the potential to be a much better escort with a Lt. Cmdr Tac and a Lt. Tac plus the higher turn rate.
Both ships would let you slot even more science officers, if you really wanted to go that way. Honestly, it seems to me that the Wells is a more versatile and more adaptable ship (helps with the two universal slots). The only situation in which I'd choose the Wells, I think, is if you wanted to go heavily into a science/tank build, and basically slotted another Engineering boff. That would be potent. But if you want to go tactical/science, I'd go with the Wells.
Having played both, the Wells outclasses the weaver in all aspects. My playing style leans more to an escort and the wells answers well with excellent mobility. The Aux bonus plays well, and the added effect of essentially a 'heal everything' console is great. Note: don't have your butt pointed at anything when you use the Tipler console - I have found myself inside cubes and portals with no way to get out.
I have added the Manheim console from the destroyer variant, making for a decent attack spike for 30 seconds.
27,800 hull
1.35 shield modifier
750 crew
13 turn
Six consoles (either 3, 2, 5 for the sci version, 4, 2, 4 for the tac version, or 3, 3, 4 for the eng version)
At least +10 to aux (+15 sci, +5 weps tac, +5 shields eng)
Lt. Tac
Lt. Eng.
Cmdr. Sci.
Ens. Uni.
Lt. Cmdr. Uni
1. Hangar bay
And of course the various console powers:
Sci: self and ally hull/shield repair and buff to particle generators
Tac: Spinal lance weapon
Eng: immunity to hold, repel close targets, reflect kinetic damage
So you've got a weaker hull and shields than both other ships, but with a turn that's slower than the wells and faster than the Orb Weaver.
On top of that, you have a boff layout that leads itself to specific tradeoffs; sometimes beneficial, sometimes not. For example, if you want to go tank you can put a Lt. Cmdr. Eng. into that universal slot and have a Lt./Lt. Cmdr pair, but that leaves you with ****ty tactical options (Lt. and Ens. at best; only a Lt. if you use that Ens. for Sci.) On the other hand, if you want to go tactical, you can slot a Lt. Cmdr Tac, which gives you the Lt./Lt.Cmdr pairing there. With the Ens. universal in engineering, you get a very balanced ship.
One of the issues here is the weapon. The Vesta can mount cannons, and in fact comes with a Mk XII dual heavy phaser cannon. Now, that phaser drains Aux instead of Weapons power. But you have two issues with this: First, you lose subsystem targeting. Second, this seems to leave you in a tight spot. You have a 3/3 weapons layout, and you could (I presume) run three Mk XII DHC [Aux] cannons forward with all power in Aux, but that seems to leave you without subsystem targeting on one hand and with ****ty options for aft weapons (unless you went all torpedoes aft, I suppose).
In a way, I see the Vesta as a more balanced ship than either the Wells or the Orb Weaver (which seem to lend themselves to Tac/Sci and Eng/Sci, respectively), but one that would require careful planning to get the best out of.
The hangar bay is of course the other wild card, and it gives the Vesta options neither other science ship has.
Now... the truth is I imagine trying to run the Vesta as an Armitage with SCIENCE is going to put its owner into a world of hurt, despite the fact that superficially the ships are much the same. I'm not even sure, if I had the Vesta, that I'd slot the dual cannons at all.
Though I'll be buying the Vesta pack, and the Vesta looks like a GREAT ship, I think it'll be my tac that uses it. I still can't see myself taking my sci toon out of the Wells class.
For a science player, the Wells has better turn, more hull, better shields, and arguably a better console layout.
It's very simple. The devs said each new lock box ship will be better than the last. And the Wells compared to the Orb Weaver is no exception. Wells is a better ship by far. The only thing the Orb Weaver has over the Wells is appearance, and that's only my opinion, not a fact.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
If you don't mind me asking, how is the Orb a better support craft? (Not a troll question or aggressive, I am genuinely curious)
Like the nebby, you can combine Lt Cmd Eng + Cmd Sci with another Lt. Cmd uni (sci or eng) for more heals, with the weaver. With just a TT 1 you give up on a lot of dmg, but cc in a healing goes through the roof.
Back in the good old days, that was kind of the nebula intrepid divide. Intrepid full on debuff/cc, but nebbie is the better cc/healer
Like the nebby, you can combine Lt Cmd Eng + Cmd Sci with another Lt. Cmd uni (sci or eng) for more heals, with the weaver. With just a TT 1 you give up on a lot of dmg, but cc in a healing goes through the roof.
Back in the good old days, that was kind of the nebula intrepid divide. Intrepid full on debuff/cc, but nebbie is the better cc/healer
Gotcha, thanks.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
It's very simple. The devs said each new lock box ship will be better than the last. And the Wells compared to the Orb Weaver is no exception. Wells is a better ship by far. The only thing the Orb Weaver has over the Wells is appearance, and that's only my opinion, not a fact.
That seems like bull, quite honestly. I have the D'Kora, the Galor, and the Wells and the Wells is certainly not decidedly better than the D'Kora and the Galor.
That seems like bull, quite honestly. I have the D'Kora, the Galor, and the Wells and the Wells is certainly not decidedly better than the D'Kora and the Galor.
But if you look carefully, you will notice that neither the D'Kora nor the Galor are a science ship. And that the Orb Weaver and Wells Timeship are.
O.O
Amazing...
Oh, and something else. Can the D'Kora or Galor do that science thingy with the other thingy and that shiny thingy that the Wells can? Oh right, excuse me, reverse time, freeze time, and basically snafu time? I don't think so. The Wells beats out the previous SCIENCE ship(s) by a lot. That's all I was saying. Guarantee when they come out with a new lockbox Cruiser it will probably be able to slaughter the Galor, and the next lockbox escort will make mincemeat out of the D'kora. Remember, ship classes matter :P
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
But if you look carefully, you will notice that neither the D'Kora nor the Galor are a science ship. And that the Orb Weaver and Wells Timeship are.
True, but that's got nothing to do with what you said, which is that every lockbox ship will be better than they last. It's not true. I have three of them.
Oh, and something else. Can the D'Kora or Galor do that science thingy with the other thingy and that shiny thingy that the Wells can? Oh right, excuse me, reverse time, freeze time, and basically snafu time? I don't think so.
Again, I have the Wells, I have the Tippler Cylinder, I have the Temporal Warfare set. It honestly isn't all that. I mean it's pretty shiny, but it's also kinda useless.
What do you guys think, for a science captain, which would be better?
The Wells has a better BOFF layout if you're going for maximum Science BOFF abilities.
However the Orb Weaver is a better all-rounder. In order to make the Wells be a better damage dealer than the Weaver, you need to use both Universal slots for Tactical BOFFs... which means you'll have virtually no Engineering BOFF skills. The Weaver can basically use the Universal LtCom for a Tac without giving anything up. (And personal preference, but I also find that the Tholian Web Generator Console is much more useful!)
That said, the Vestra will blow them both out of the water, at least under normal conditions. (The Orb Weaver BOFF layout will technically allow a few different viable setups that the Vestra layout won't - example: combining Aux2Bat1 + TBR3 without giving up Aux2SIF/EWP - but these will be more niche builds.) Sample Vestra Setup for STFs:
3x Aux-reliant DHCs Fore, 2x Tricobalt Mines + a Turret Aft
Running at 25Weapons|50Shields|25Engines|100Aux
(Peregrine Pets still do the highest Hull Damage Fedside, unless the new Romulan fighters change this they'll remain the best pick for pure additional +damage on STFs)
High damage output, Decent shield strength, Crazy Heals/Buffs.
Tactical Captain for preference, but a Sci shouldn't do too bad either.
True, but that's got nothing to do with what you said, which is that every lockbox ship will be better than they last. It's not true. I have three of them.
-.-
*facepalm*
You know, I would figure anyone who knows anything about this game would know that ship class is important, and it's a kind of goes without saying deal... That my statement from the devs would imply... that any new lockbox ship would outdo the SHIP OF THE SAME CLASSIFICATION from previous lockboxes... perhaps I should have been more specific, but I figured it was one of those not needing to be said and doing so would be insulting to you...
I need to stop assuming...
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
I'm afraid I can't read minds. If you want to say something, you need to actually type it out.
Alright. Then let me rephrase what I stated earlier with full details.
The devs have said that each lockbox ship will be better than the last of it's class. Which is why the wells is naturally better than the orb weaver in many if not all things. And why the next lockbox cruiser will probably be able to beat out the galor and d'kora.
Better?
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Alright. Then let me rephrase what I stated earlier with full details.
The devs have said that each lockbox ship will be better than the last of it's class. Which is why the wells is naturally better than the orb weaver in many if not all things. And why the next lockbox cruiser will probably be able to beat out the galor and d'kora.
Better?
Well, can you find a quote for that? Because, as I presume you are deciding that the D'Kora and the Galor are both cruisers, and owning both, I find them fairly evenly matched (albeit quite different). I couldn't say one is decidedly better than the other.
Well, can you find a quote for that? Because, as I presume you are deciding that the D'Kora and the Galor are both cruisers, and owning both, I find them fairly evenly matched (albeit quite different). I couldn't say one is decidedly better than the other.
I never said the d'kora was better than the galor or vice versa. I also put them under the cruiser category because the galor is a cruiser, and the d'kora doesn't really match anything else other than the new destroyers. I simply said that any NEW lockbox cruisers will probably be better than both of those ships.
As for the quote, that would involve digging for several hours through blogs and forum posts, a few hours that I really would rather spend doing something else. But I am almost positive I read it somewhere (either in the blogs or on the forums).
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
The devs have said that each lockbox ship will be better than the last of it's class.
I've never seen that quote either.
The closest I can think of are:
(i) The original statement way back outlining that lockbox ships are "intended to be rare" - because (Licensing Issues aside) they don't want half of Starfleet flying around in Ferengi Marauders or Cardassian Galors, etc.
(ii) Or this one from Jamz which was actually about a non-lockbox ship , and is a direct quote from a thread where he was disagreeing with someone who claimed that a new ship (Ambassador) should be equal to or more powerful than an old one (Oddysey).
"In an effort to continually improve the value and fun factor of obtaining and opening a Lock Box, we?ve embraced this promotion as an opportunity to revamp the contents of these previously-retired boxes, using the valuable lessons we?ve learned over the past several months of iteration. That?s another way of saying that we?re making them better, more valuable, and more fun."
There have been several similar pushes to try to get us to think of Lockboxes as a worthwhile investment. The guaranteed Lobi Crystals and Duty Officer additions in the Tholian boxes went a long way towards getting rid of the "you never get anything good out of lockboxes" mentality. But this was to increase the perceived value/worth of the lockboxes themselves, not the ships inside them...
Comments
As far as sci ship goes she should make both those lock-box ships obsolete.
Wells TSV has:
30,000 hull
1.45 shield modifier
250 crew
15 turn rate
3 tac, 3 eng, 4 sci consoles
+15 Aux power
Temporal Backstep
Lt. Cmdr Uni
Lt. Uni
Ens. Eng.
Cmdr. Sci
Lt. Sci
Tholian Orb Weaver has:
30,000 hull
1.4 shield modifier
1200 crew
9 turn
3 tac, 3 eng, 4 sci consoles
+15 Aux power
Tholian Web Generator
Lt. Cmdr. Uni
Ens. Tac
Lt. Cmdr. Eng.
Cmdr. Sci
Ens. Si
In a way, I think the Wells is a great deal more versatile. They share the same bonus to Aux and the same console layout, but the Wells has a much higher turn rate and slightly higher shield modifier. I would also say that the Wells console is more beneficial than that of the Orb Weaver; the Wells console is a free hull and shield heal, while the Orb Weaver's console is... of dubious use as far as I can tell.
(Note: I have the Wells, but not the Orb Weaver).
I personally use the Wells with my tactical captain, and use both universal boffs as tactical boffs. With the high turn rate and good tactical boff setup available, this makes the Wells a pretty potent little ship. But of course you don't have to do that, and that's the benefit of the Wells.
Both ships share a science commander slot (obviously, as science ships). So then it all boils down to what else you want to do with it. The Orb Weaver has the potential to be a much better tank- you can slot in two engineering Lt. Cmdrs- while the Wells has the potential to be a much better escort with a Lt. Cmdr Tac and a Lt. Tac plus the higher turn rate.
Both ships would let you slot even more science officers, if you really wanted to go that way. Honestly, it seems to me that the Wells is a more versatile and more adaptable ship (helps with the two universal slots). The only situation in which I'd choose the Wells, I think, is if you wanted to go heavily into a science/tank build, and basically slotted another Engineering boff. That would be potent. But if you want to go tactical/science, I'd go with the Wells.
Having played both, the Wells outclasses the weaver in all aspects. My playing style leans more to an escort and the wells answers well with excellent mobility. The Aux bonus plays well, and the added effect of essentially a 'heal everything' console is great. Note: don't have your butt pointed at anything when you use the Tipler console - I have found myself inside cubes and portals with no way to get out.
I have added the Manheim console from the destroyer variant, making for a decent attack spike for 30 seconds.
27,800 hull
1.35 shield modifier
750 crew
13 turn
Six consoles (either 3, 2, 5 for the sci version, 4, 2, 4 for the tac version, or 3, 3, 4 for the eng version)
At least +10 to aux (+15 sci, +5 weps tac, +5 shields eng)
Lt. Tac
Lt. Eng.
Cmdr. Sci.
Ens. Uni.
Lt. Cmdr. Uni
1. Hangar bay
And of course the various console powers:
Sci: self and ally hull/shield repair and buff to particle generators
Tac: Spinal lance weapon
Eng: immunity to hold, repel close targets, reflect kinetic damage
So you've got a weaker hull and shields than both other ships, but with a turn that's slower than the wells and faster than the Orb Weaver.
On top of that, you have a boff layout that leads itself to specific tradeoffs; sometimes beneficial, sometimes not. For example, if you want to go tank you can put a Lt. Cmdr. Eng. into that universal slot and have a Lt./Lt. Cmdr pair, but that leaves you with ****ty tactical options (Lt. and Ens. at best; only a Lt. if you use that Ens. for Sci.) On the other hand, if you want to go tactical, you can slot a Lt. Cmdr Tac, which gives you the Lt./Lt.Cmdr pairing there. With the Ens. universal in engineering, you get a very balanced ship.
One of the issues here is the weapon. The Vesta can mount cannons, and in fact comes with a Mk XII dual heavy phaser cannon. Now, that phaser drains Aux instead of Weapons power. But you have two issues with this: First, you lose subsystem targeting. Second, this seems to leave you in a tight spot. You have a 3/3 weapons layout, and you could (I presume) run three Mk XII DHC [Aux] cannons forward with all power in Aux, but that seems to leave you without subsystem targeting on one hand and with ****ty options for aft weapons (unless you went all torpedoes aft, I suppose).
In a way, I see the Vesta as a more balanced ship than either the Wells or the Orb Weaver (which seem to lend themselves to Tac/Sci and Eng/Sci, respectively), but one that would require careful planning to get the best out of.
The hangar bay is of course the other wild card, and it gives the Vesta options neither other science ship has.
Now... the truth is I imagine trying to run the Vesta as an Armitage with SCIENCE is going to put its owner into a world of hurt, despite the fact that superficially the ships are much the same. I'm not even sure, if I had the Vesta, that I'd slot the dual cannons at all.
For a science player, the Wells has better turn, more hull, better shields, and arguably a better console layout.
Think of the wells as +intrepid, and the orb as +1 nebula.
The orb net is a great non-griefing, non-op, but still usefull zone denial ability. but you don't have to use it on the ship tbh.
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
If you don't mind me asking, how is the Orb a better support craft? (Not a troll question or aggressive, I am genuinely curious)
Like the nebby, you can combine Lt Cmd Eng + Cmd Sci with another Lt. Cmd uni (sci or eng) for more heals, with the weaver. With just a TT 1 you give up on a lot of dmg, but cc in a healing goes through the roof.
Back in the good old days, that was kind of the nebula intrepid divide. Intrepid full on debuff/cc, but nebbie is the better cc/healer
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
Gotcha, thanks.
But if you look carefully, you will notice that neither the D'Kora nor the Galor are a science ship. And that the Orb Weaver and Wells Timeship are.
O.O
Amazing...
Oh, and something else. Can the D'Kora or Galor do that science thingy with the other thingy and that shiny thingy that the Wells can? Oh right, excuse me, reverse time, freeze time, and basically snafu time? I don't think so. The Wells beats out the previous SCIENCE ship(s) by a lot. That's all I was saying. Guarantee when they come out with a new lockbox Cruiser it will probably be able to slaughter the Galor, and the next lockbox escort will make mincemeat out of the D'kora. Remember, ship classes matter :P
Again, I have the Wells, I have the Tippler Cylinder, I have the Temporal Warfare set. It honestly isn't all that. I mean it's pretty shiny, but it's also kinda useless.
The Wells has a better BOFF layout if you're going for maximum Science BOFF abilities.
However the Orb Weaver is a better all-rounder. In order to make the Wells be a better damage dealer than the Weaver, you need to use both Universal slots for Tactical BOFFs... which means you'll have virtually no Engineering BOFF skills. The Weaver can basically use the Universal LtCom for a Tac without giving anything up. (And personal preference, but I also find that the Tholian Web Generator Console is much more useful!)
That said, the Vestra will blow them both out of the water, at least under normal conditions. (The Orb Weaver BOFF layout will technically allow a few different viable setups that the Vestra layout won't - example: combining Aux2Bat1 + TBR3 without giving up Aux2SIF/EWP - but these will be more niche builds.)
Sample Vestra Setup for STFs:
3x Aux-reliant DHCs Fore, 2x Tricobalt Mines + a Turret Aft
Running at 25Weapons|50Shields|25Engines|100Aux
EPTS1
EPTS1, Aux2SIF1
PH1, HE2, TSS3, GW3
TT1, CRF1
TT1, CSV1, APB2, DPB3
(Peregrine Pets still do the highest Hull Damage Fedside, unless the new Romulan fighters change this they'll remain the best pick for pure additional +damage on STFs)
High damage output, Decent shield strength, Crazy Heals/Buffs.
Tactical Captain for preference, but a Sci shouldn't do too bad either.
-.-
*facepalm*
You know, I would figure anyone who knows anything about this game would know that ship class is important, and it's a kind of goes without saying deal... That my statement from the devs would imply... that any new lockbox ship would outdo the SHIP OF THE SAME CLASSIFICATION from previous lockboxes... perhaps I should have been more specific, but I figured it was one of those not needing to be said and doing so would be insulting to you...
I need to stop assuming...
Alright. Then let me rephrase what I stated earlier with full details.
The devs have said that each lockbox ship will be better than the last of it's class. Which is why the wells is naturally better than the orb weaver in many if not all things. And why the next lockbox cruiser will probably be able to beat out the galor and d'kora.
Better?
Well, can you find a quote for that? Because, as I presume you are deciding that the D'Kora and the Galor are both cruisers, and owning both, I find them fairly evenly matched (albeit quite different). I couldn't say one is decidedly better than the other.
I never said the d'kora was better than the galor or vice versa. I also put them under the cruiser category because the galor is a cruiser, and the d'kora doesn't really match anything else other than the new destroyers. I simply said that any NEW lockbox cruisers will probably be better than both of those ships.
As for the quote, that would involve digging for several hours through blogs and forum posts, a few hours that I really would rather spend doing something else. But I am almost positive I read it somewhere (either in the blogs or on the forums).
I've never seen that quote either.
The closest I can think of are:
(i) The original statement way back outlining that lockbox ships are "intended to be rare" - because (Licensing Issues aside) they don't want half of Starfleet flying around in Ferengi Marauders or Cardassian Galors, etc.
(ii) Or this one from Jamz which was actually about a non-lockbox ship , and is a direct quote from a thread where he was disagreeing with someone who claimed that a new ship (Ambassador) should be equal to or more powerful than an old one (Oddysey).
(iii) or this blog
"In an effort to continually improve the value and fun factor of obtaining and opening a Lock Box, we?ve embraced this promotion as an opportunity to revamp the contents of these previously-retired boxes, using the valuable lessons we?ve learned over the past several months of iteration. That?s another way of saying that we?re making them better, more valuable, and more fun."
There have been several similar pushes to try to get us to think of Lockboxes as a worthwhile investment. The guaranteed Lobi Crystals and Duty Officer additions in the Tholian boxes went a long way towards getting rid of the "you never get anything good out of lockboxes" mentality. But this was to increase the perceived value/worth of the lockboxes themselves, not the ships inside them...