Have you noticed how torpedos have become next to useless because of Borg Kits, and Tac Team? Its already insult to canon that the torpedos don't do much to shields while being shown otherwise in the shows and movies, but its also a contradiction of what kind of DPS they give it when it fires from NPC's. Topedo spread coming out of an NPC battleship or Dreadnought rips through your shields and half your hull, yet they don't do any shield penetration for players. The only type ships can now enjoy the use torpedos are escorts/ destroyers because they are armed with cannons that rip through shield within second, then they could drop their volley of torpedos on to the bare hull of their target. Ships that has to use beams can't wear down shields nearly as fast and don't work at all against Tac Team and Borg kits, so cruisers can't enjoy the use of the torpedos , at all. How is that supposed to be fair and balance, Mr. Dev?
Its funny how the ships that was designed in canon to fire a single burst topedo spread is only allowed to fire the least amount of torpedos per spread, while escort ships that don't fire spread volleys in the shows, are allowed to fire the most amount of torpedos per spread. There is not one show or movie showing the BOPs firing more than one torpedo at a time. In DS9, the Defiant never fired more than two torpedos at a time, and can only fire more than two in a consecutive order. Most of the ships in canon only fire consecutive order of torpedos, except for the Galaxy types. Even the Sovereign couldn't fire a one burst spread of torpedos or otherwise it would of easily found the Scimitar, possibly even damaging it. If you read the manual or Memory Alpha, you will see that the Sovereign Enterprise has 10 torpedo bays(3 fore, 6 aft, and 1 quantum fore launcher), the ship was not designed to fire at once burst spread but consecutively.
This is just to show the great lengths, that the Devs went to give all the firepower to one class of ships to enjoy. People would say, "Cruisers are for tanking," but you don't get rewards or credit for "tanking." You don't get drops for taking hits, instead you get drops for killing stuff or dealing damage. You don't get the top end game drop for 1st place for taking the most hits, but for getting the most kills. There needs to be a balance to give other classes of ships to be top killing machines so their players can enjoy that same rewards escort players get. Now with the new BOFF abilities that allow you to subnuke players take away people's tanking abilities. This is being used in most PVP teams so it makes the tank player, an easy target with no teeth. There is no real atiquate defense against this because Science Team may undo the subnuke timers but it doesn't return the buffs that were turned off, thus making you still vulnerable to attack.
While I understand your plight and sympathise with you for it you are barking up the wrong tree... Cryptic/PWE AND the playerbase has spoken and the common theme here is unless you arte in an escort of some form you are a pointless ship taking up space that could be filled by an escort..... been that way since the beginning I am afraid....
you wanna give the cruisers back thier bite give them torp launchers that fire in 360 degree arcs..... regardless of the torpedo type... if its a torp that gets mounted on a cruiser it gets a 360 degree firing arc period... but only for the Fed Cruisers... since no one plays KDF anymore since all the good KDF toys are available to feds already anyway....
Major Xi'Zzin I.R.W. Raptor's Claw Storm Eagle Class WarbirdFleet Ha'feh I have never trusted humans, and I never will
The problem isn't just the weapons. The entire system needs major surgery in order to balance it. As long as weapon mod powers are TAC powers the other ships will never catch up. As for tanking, any ship can tank. The escorts dodge/shield tank, the sci ships shield tank and the cruisers shield and hull tank.
Personally I would replace those TAC weapon mod. powers with other emphasizing mobility and tactics, use the beam/cannon/torpedo/mine powers in an additional system (targeting computer, first officer or whatever) that's independent of the type of ship, then make each class of ship favor a type of weapon, dual cannons for escorts, beam arrays for cruisers and torpedo weapons for science ships, and balance it out so that any type of ship of the same tier with similar gear would do and survive the same amount of damage, just in a different way as I described above.
The problem isn't just the weapons. The entire system needs major surgery in order to balance it. As long as weapon mod powers are TAC powers the other ships will never catch up. As for tanking, any ship can tank. The escorts dodge/shield tank, the sci ships shield tank and the cruisers shield and hull tank.
Personally I would replace those TAC weapon mod. powers with other emphasizing mobility and tactics, use the beam/cannon/torpedo/mine powers in an additional system (targeting computer, first officer or whatever) that's independent of the type of ship, then make each class of ship favor a type of weapon, dual cannons for escorts, beam arrays for cruisers and torpedo weapons for science ships, and balance it out so that any type of ship of the same tier with similar gear would do and survive the same amount of damage, just in a different way as I described above.
I agree whole heartedly. I just made this thread about weapons, because its a step to recognize the imbalance and what can be fixed. Its your weapons that will gain you rewards for kills in PVP and PVE. You can make the case about mobilty, HP and resistance, shields, and BOFF layout.
While I understand your plight and sympathise with you for it you are barking up the wrong tree... Cryptic/PWE AND the playerbase has spoken and the common theme here is unless you arte in an escort of some form you are a pointless ship taking up space that could be filled by an escort..... been that way since the beginning I am afraid....
you wanna give the cruisers back thier bite give them torp launchers that fire in 360 degree arcs..... regardless of the torpedo type... if its a torp that gets mounted on a cruiser it gets a 360 degree firing arc period... but only for the Fed Cruisers... since no one plays KDF anymore since all the good KDF toys are available to feds already anyway....
I wouldn't ask for 360 degree arcs for torpedos because it wouldn't make sense. There is no such torpedo weapon in Star Trek canon. Just give the torpedos more teeth and they are fine where they are. The most attacked part of a cruiser from an escort is it's rear, so puting powerful torpedos in that area would discourage players from hanging back there too long. It's like when you fight the NPC Dreadnoughts, you avoid hanging around its front and rear arcs because it's torpedo spreads will deal you a death blow or near death blow.
I can agree on 1 point.. any event that calculates a drop/reward for doing the most damage should be changed to include a engineers 'survivability rating' or something like that, which calculated adds to whatever the lower damage a cruiser does and puts in on par with escorts in score values.
I can also agree to a certain extent about the ST Shows not showing something like what Spread III looks like, however nor do we see every torpedo spread strike the captains have ordered while in battle, so it is entirely possible we never were shown it, and to a certain extent too it might not have had that effect to help save on the vfx costs of episodes.
I'll have to disagree with you on torps doing nothing to shields.. they certainly can and cruisers still get spread II or high yield II whichever of your choosing. Obviously builds are quite different across the board so torpedo damage varies in mileage, and if your finding torps being too restrictive for you, I'd suggest the rapid-reload transphasic torps, then it matters even less if shields are up or not. Grab a tractor too if you need something to hold your target long enough to squeeze the launcher in the arc, then your set.
My only 1 annoyance I get with torps is when that 30-45K tricobolt torpedo hits a shield sliver and is reduced to like 2K, but I shrug it off and just keep on the pressure.
---
"We are the Borg. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Resistance is futile."
Sincerely,
The Cube Assimilating Your Ship Right Now
And what happens with escorts equip these stronger torp launchers?
They can reverse the amount of torpedos per spread for the escort, so instead of the cruisers having the least amounts of torpedos per volley, the escorts should get the least, since they can arm cannons.
I can agree on 1 point.. any event that calculates a drop/reward for doing the most damage should be changed to include a engineers 'survivability rating' or something like that, which calculated adds to whatever the lower damage a cruiser does and puts in on par with escorts in score values.
I can also agree to a certain extent about the ST Shows not showing something like what Spread III looks like, however nor do we see every torpedo spread strike the captains have ordered while in battle, so it is entirely possible we never were shown it, and to a certain extent too it might not have had that effect to help save on the vfx costs of episodes.
I'll have to disagree with you on torps doing nothing to shields.. they certainly can and cruisers still get spread II or high yield II whichever of your choosing. Obviously builds are quite different across the board so torpedo damage varies in mileage, and if your finding torps being too restrictive for you, I'd suggest the rapid-reload transphasic torps, then it matters even less if shields are up or not. Grab a tractor too if you need something to hold your target long enough to squeeze the launcher in the arc, then your set.
My only 1 annoyance I get with torps is when that 30-45K tricobolt torpedo hits a shield sliver and is reduced to like 2K, but I shrug it off and just keep on the pressure.
Just read Memory Alpha about the Galaxy Class tactical systems and it will explain why it can fire a torpedo spread of five at one time. None of the other ship classes even mention it.
"There were also fore and aft torpedo launchers on the engineering section. (TNG: "Conundrum") Each launch tube was capable of firing at least five photon torpedoes simultaneously, each torpedo capable of being independently targeted. (TNG: "The Arsenal of Freedom", "Yesterday's Enterprise") "
Just because other ship classes dont mention them doesn't mean they don't exist. The Akria and Promethus would be prime examples of ships that almost certainly would have that same ability in ST as the Galaxy, just based on looking at the roles & ship designs these type of ships played in ST.
There are also many cruiser setups that'll work wonders with exposing the hull. Grab 4 to 6 tetryon beams, and load the other slots with torps, let the tetryon strip the shields down, turn slightly to fire off that high yield 2/spread II on the exposed hull works wonderfully. Other hybrid beam types that will do shield damge also apply. Further enhanced with flow capacitors in the particular build.
There is also the ability to take polarons, and a sci energy siphon ability to really reduce all of their abilities, maybe even cause shields to drop briefly for a nice shieldless torpedo hit.
Then there finally is the all up straight up torpedo fun building, taking all torpedos, 2 or 3(depending on max tac consoles) consoles of that specialized torpedo damage enhancers, with skills in torpedos, and then of course the reduced torpedo fire time duty officers and all torpedos or not those shields and hull will take a beating.
Simply put, there are several options avaliable to cruisers that while not quite as direct as a rapid fire heavy cannon escort to bring a shield facing down, shows the options are there.
---
"We are the Borg. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Resistance is futile."
Sincerely,
The Cube Assimilating Your Ship Right Now
Just because other ship classes dont mention them doesn't mean they don't exist. The Akria and Promethus would be prime examples of ships that almost certainly would have that same ability in ST as the Galaxy, just based on looking at the roles & ship designs these type of ships played in ST.
There are also many cruiser setups that'll work wonders with exposing the hull. Grab 4 to 6 tetryon beams, and load the other slots with torps, let the tetryon strip the shields down, turn slightly to fire off that high yield 2/spread II on the exposed hull works wonderfully. Other hybrid beam types that will do shield damge also apply. Further enhanced with flow capacitors in the particular build.
There is also the ability to take polarons, and a sci energy siphon ability to really reduce all of their abilities, maybe even cause shields to drop briefly for a nice shieldless torpedo hit.
Then there finally is the all up straight up torpedo fun building, taking all torpedos, 2 or 3(depending on max tac consoles) consoles of that specialized torpedo damage enhancers, with skills in torpedos, and then of course the reduced torpedo fire time duty officers and all torpedos or not those shields and hull will take a beating.
Simply put, there are several options avaliable to cruisers that while not quite as direct as a rapid fire heavy cannon escort to bring a shield facing down, shows the options are there.
Negative, you can't assume the ability of tactical systems just because you would like a ship to perform a certain way. If the manual donesn't say it or its not mentioned in Memory Alpha or Beta, then is doesn't happen.
The Akira didn't fire spreads, it fired consecutively. The word "spread" was mentioned in describing the array of torpedo lauchers, since it has 15 independent launchers. Nothing said about a single burst of torpedos. It doesn't have one large torpedo bay that can fit five torpedos in it at a time. The Akira is not even supposed to be an escort, armed with cannons, like in this game but a Heavy Cruise that can launch small crafts.
The Prometheus says phasers and torpedos as armaments, and the only things making it special is it's multi vector system, regenerative shielding and it is the fastest warp ship in the fleet at the time. I'm sure if it had special torpedo abilities it would not have gone unmentioned.
STO has your head all screwed up on what's canon and what isn't. Go read Memory Alpha and Beta, to learn ships before you assume something.
...what's with all the 'I want everything and nobody else should have anything!' threads?
That's not just the OP, btw. I've noticed it in almost every damn thread, it's a wonder the Devs haven't given up in disgust at the playerbase.
Back to the thread though, I don't see the problem at all. If you want to be more DPS go grab an escort from ship requisitions, it's not that difficult, or if you want your cruiser class to do more damage learn to adapt your playstyle/consoles/loadout, but you're going to have to accept that making a ship that does absolutely everything will REALLY TRIBBLE the balance.
Personally, I love the escort DPS ability, but I've stopped using my escort because having all the firepower in the world doesn't mean anything when you spend half the STF on res timer, (and yet I don't see escort player crying in the forum threatening to ragequit if they don't get the same resilience as the cruisers) so I changed from an escort TO a cruiser. At first I thought I'd have to resign myself to doing minimal damage but instead of throwing a tantrum at the Devs I changed my playstyle/loadout and now my cruiser actually outperforms my escort in every field!
My point is this, no one ship class is better than any other in my experience, it's just a matter of finding one that suits your playstyle and then modifying it to compliment the goal you're aiming for, oh, and also learn to accept that you can't have everything your own way, trust me, you'll feel better when you stop sweating over the inconsequential stuff.
***The above ramblings are, as always, my own opinion. Based on my experiences and interpreted by my mind, they by no means reflect the universal truth (unless coincidentally). Peace.***
...what's with all the 'I want everything and nobody else should have anything!' threads?
That's not just the OP, btw. I've noticed it in almost every damn thread, it's a wonder the Devs haven't given up in disgust at the playerbase.
Back to the thread though, I don't see the problem at all. If you want to be more DPS go grab an escort from ship requisitions, it's not that difficult, or if you want your cruiser class to do more damage learn to adapt your playstyle/consoles/loadout, but you're going to have to accept that making a ship that does absolutely everything will REALLY TRIBBLE the balance.
Personally, I love the escort DPS ability, but I've stopped using my escort because having all the firepower in the world doesn't mean anything when you spend half the STF on res timer, (and yet I don't see escort player crying in the forum threatening to ragequit if they don't get the same resilience as the cruisers) so I changed from an escort TO a cruiser. At first I thought I'd have to resign myself to doing minimal damage but instead of throwing a tantrum at the Devs I changed my playstyle/loadout and now my cruiser actually outperforms my escort in every field!
My point is this, no one ship class is better than any other in my experience, it's just a matter of finding one that suits your playstyle and then modifying it to compliment the goal you're aiming for, oh, and also learn to accept that you can't have everything your own way, trust me, you'll feel better when you stop sweating over the inconsequential stuff.
Thats where the balance is gone. This game is supposed to be balance and fun for every type of player, not just escort flyers. Its easy for you to just go with the flow, no matter how wrong it is. You not the type of person that believes in fighting for their right. If you don't like the threads, because they are not singing praises, then close you eyes, don't look at them. You are not a Dev so you don't know what they are thinking. They type in yellow anyway when they speak.
I will say this again, THERE IS NO REWARD FOR TAKING HITS OR MAKING SPAM IN THIS GAME. YOU ONLY GET CREDIT FOR KILLS.
STO has your head all screwed up on what's canon and what isn't. Go read Memory Alpha and Beta, to learn ships before you assume something.
Honestly? Canon is a fantastically stupid way to build a game, for several reasons:
1) Most importantly, Star Trek canon is notoriously inconsistent with itself. In any given episode, the writers were more interested in trying to tell a good story than they were with keeping everything consistent across five different live-action series, ten movies, and god-knows how many tech manuals, blueprints, official guides, novels, comics, cartoons, etc. In truth there is no 'one' canon, most people can (and do) take whatever bits they prefer, and handwave away the rest.
2) Canon is restrictive. Even if there were one perfect, internally consistent canon, treating it like a sacred scripture would be horrifically limiting. Since there is a document somewhere that says that Galaxy class phaser arrays are supposedly the most powerful in Starfleet, you now have to make that happen, regardless of the fact that later ships like the Defiant, Prometheus, and Sovereign classes are logically supposed to be 'more powerful' warships. Moreover, you are forced to eliminate whole sections of Star Trek Fandom, because they don't 'fit' - like TOS uniforms? Too bad, those are out-of-date. Like the Excelsior class? Sorry, it's obsolete! Etc. Finally, if you treat canon as a bright boundary around what is acceptable, then you can never progress the story, because every new ship, new race, etc. you add is now 'not canon'.
3) Canon was never, ever designed with an eye towards gameplay. STO is a game, and therefore has different needs than the writers who were creating static narratives. In a movie, we don't really care that a particular ship is more/less powerful than another, or that we can't quite tweak the ship to look/act the way we want, or whatever. We are merely watching the story, not participating in it. Once you are in a game, and ostensibly are a part of the narrative, everything changes - few people are interested in playing a game where they are the perpetual underdogs, for example. Thus, if you stick to 'canon', where a particular ship is 'the best' because a writer said so for plot reasons, then EVERYONE will want that ship - which creates a problem when someone points out that in canon, there were only like 12 of that ship built, so everyone else has to make do with something else. That's highly lame.
Ultimately, if something really bothers you as being 'not canon', all you have to do is do what the Star Trek writers did - spend 5 minutes coming up with a technobabble explanation to cover it. I'll get you started:
As designed, the Prometheus class starship lacked rapid-fire torpedo launchers, as there were concerns that the hull stresses from rapid launches might bind the delicate connectors for the Multi-vector system. However, by 2374, advances in inertial dampener technology enabled far better recoil compensation for torpedo launchers. This, coupled with continuing developments in weapons miniaturization, led to a general refit of the Prometheus' torpedo systems, enabling each launcher to fire up to four torpedoes in rapid succession.
Easy. Give me your next canon issue and I'll solve that too:)
Ultimately, if something really bothers you as being 'not canon', all you have to do is do what the Star Trek writers did - spend 5 minutes coming up with a technobabble explanation to cover it. I'll get you started:
As designed, the Prometheus class starship lacked rapid-fire torpedo launchers, as there were concerns that the hull stresses from rapid launches might bind the delicate connectors for the Multi-vector system. However, by 2374, advances in inertial dampener technology enabled far better recoil compensation for torpedo launchers. This, coupled with continuing developments in weapons miniaturization, led to a general refit of the Prometheus' torpedo systems, enabling each launcher to fire up to four torpedoes in rapid succession.
Easy. Give me your next canon issue and I'll solve that too:)
Well played sir. *tips hat*
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Thats where the balance is gone. This game is supposed to be balance and fun for every type of player, not just escort flyers. Its easy for you to just go with the flow, no matter how wrong it is. You not the type of person that believes in fighting for their right. If you don't like the threads, because they are not singing praises, then close you eyes, don't look at them. You are not a Dev so you don't know what they are thinking. They type in yellow anyway when they speak.
I will say this again, THERE IS NO REWARD FOR TAKING HITS OR MAKING SPAM IN THIS GAME. YOU ONLY GET CREDIT FOR KILLS.
not entirely true, you get credit for healing done, dmg done, assistant kills, and objectives completed...half of those do not include dealing dmg.
example: starbase 24, if you heal yourself while taking the beating from multiple ships (tanking) you will end up first place and get the shiny loot.
on the subject of building games 100% canon, i think mrtshead said everything there is to say about the it...and more.
i want to add, that maybe an adventure or something of that kind...most definately a singleplayer game can be 100% canon, but multiplayer is basically impossible..otherwise it becomes dull, even more than STO is right now.
on a related subject: just wondering if this thread too will hit 60 pages with a circleing argument that basically is just a "need help, i can't make it work" kind of thing.
torpedos are far from useless, if used correctly they are dangerous burst weapons on any starship class.
also, i find torpedo damage in canon actuually laughable and beyond reasonable. Consider that even a weak nuclear device is far more powerfull than even a tricobald device in the shows. Also very contradicting in shows...when the defiant fired quantum torpedos on a planet you could see the explosions from orbit...yet when they are fired during battle it has the power of 500lb conventional bomb...even if they specifically say highest yield.
So comparing canon torpedos with ingame torpedos is absolutely flawed, since not even canon can establish the firepower of a torpedo. And the yield setting is a crappy explanation for that, the effects are tuned for scrren effect, nothing more...the game tries to copy that. The flaw of those torpedos lie within canon, not in the game actually. If torpedos where presented consequently in only ONE way, than the game would reproduce them accordingly, but they are not...so you can't even copy canon torpedos since that would mean they are incredibly powerfull one time and incredibly weak the next time.
basically what crytic did as a workaround to this canon dilemma, they made them on hull only powerfull. thats pretty genius from a gameplay point of view and since there wasn't really much to work with from canon.
Negative, you can't assume the ability of tactical systems just because you would like a ship to perform a certain way. If the manual donesn't say it or its not mentioned in Memory Alpha or Beta, then is doesn't happen.
The Akira didn't fire spreads, it fired consecutively. The word "spread" was mentioned in describing the array of torpedo lauchers, since it has 15 independent launchers. Nothing said about a single burst of torpedos. It doesn't have one large torpedo bay that can fit five torpedos in it at a time. The Akira is not even supposed to be an escort, armed with cannons, like in this game but a Heavy Cruise that can launch small crafts.
The Prometheus says phasers and torpedos as armaments, and the only things making it special is it's multi vector system, regenerative shielding and it is the fastest warp ship in the fleet at the time. I'm sure if it had special torpedo abilities it would not have gone unmentioned.
STO has your head all screwed up on what's canon and what isn't. Go read Memory Alpha and Beta, to learn ships before you assume something.
Just because other ship classes dont mention them doesn't mean they don't exist. The Akria and Promethus would be prime examples of ships that almost certainly would have that same ability in ST as the Galaxy, just based on looking at the roles & ship designs these type of ships played in ST.
There are also many cruiser setups that'll work wonders with exposing the hull. Grab 4 to 6 tetryon beams, and load the other slots with torps, let the tetryon strip the shields down, turn slightly to fire off that high yield 2/spread II on the exposed hull works wonderfully. Other hybrid beam types that will do shield damge also apply. Further enhanced with flow capacitors in the particular build.
There is also the ability to take polarons, and a sci energy siphon ability to really reduce all of their abilities, maybe even cause shields to drop briefly for a nice shieldless torpedo hit.
Then there finally is the all up straight up torpedo fun building, taking all torpedos, 2 or 3(depending on max tac consoles) consoles of that specialized torpedo damage enhancers, with skills in torpedos, and then of course the reduced torpedo fire time duty officers and all torpedos or not those shields and hull will take a beating.
Simply put, there are several options avaliable to cruisers that while not quite as direct as a rapid fire heavy cannon escort to bring a shield facing down, shows the options are there.
Honestly? Canon is a fantastically stupid way to build a game, for several reasons:
1) Most importantly, Star Trek canon is notoriously inconsistent with itself. In any given episode, the writers were more interested in trying to tell a good story than they were with keeping everything consistent across five different live-action series, ten movies, and god-knows how many tech manuals, blueprints, official guides, novels, comics, cartoons, etc. In truth there is no 'one' canon, most people can (and do) take whatever bits they prefer, and handwave away the rest.
2) Canon is restrictive. Even if there were one perfect, internally consistent canon, treating it like a sacred scripture would be horrifically limiting. Since there is a document somewhere that says that Galaxy class phaser arrays are supposedly the most powerful in Starfleet, you now have to make that happen, regardless of the fact that later ships like the Defiant, Prometheus, and Sovereign classes are logically supposed to be 'more powerful' warships. Moreover, you are forced to eliminate whole sections of Star Trek Fandom, because they don't 'fit' - like TOS uniforms? Too bad, those are out-of-date. Like the Excelsior class? Sorry, it's obsolete! Etc. Finally, if you treat canon as a bright boundary around what is acceptable, then you can never progress the story, because every new ship, new race, etc. you add is now 'not canon'.
3) Canon was never, ever designed with an eye towards gameplay. STO is a game, and therefore has different needs than the writers who were creating static narratives. In a movie, we don't really care that a particular ship is more/less powerful than another, or that we can't quite tweak the ship to look/act the way we want, or whatever. We are merely watching the story, not participating in it. Once you are in a game, and ostensibly are a part of the narrative, everything changes - few people are interested in playing a game where they are the perpetual underdogs, for example. Thus, if you stick to 'canon', where a particular ship is 'the best' because a writer said so for plot reasons, then EVERYONE will want that ship - which creates a problem when someone points out that in canon, there were only like 12 of that ship built, so everyone else has to make do with something else. That's highly lame.
Ultimately, if something really bothers you as being 'not canon', all you have to do is do what the Star Trek writers did - spend 5 minutes coming up with a technobabble explanation to cover it. I'll get you started:
As designed, the Prometheus class starship lacked rapid-fire torpedo launchers, as there were concerns that the hull stresses from rapid launches might bind the delicate connectors for the Multi-vector system. However, by 2374, advances in inertial dampener technology enabled far better recoil compensation for torpedo launchers. This, coupled with continuing developments in weapons miniaturization, led to a general refit of the Prometheus' torpedo systems, enabling each launcher to fire up to four torpedoes in rapid succession.
Easy. Give me your next canon issue and I'll solve that too:)
Canon is a fantastically stupid in your opinion because you don't like guidlines that conflict with your wishes. Canon is not restrictive, it should be a guideline from which a story starts and how baseline schematics on technology starts. After that, then you can add customization. Canon can be an excuse if they wanted to use a reason why they made certain ships act a certain way, but when there is no canon fact to back it it up, then it show a personal bais. The base turn rates, powers, and known ship abilities should follow canon first then allow players to customize as they they see fit. It this game, the abilities of the ships are mostly customized by the DEV's instead of the players because of BOFF layouts, console layouts, ship inert modifiers, and base performance that don't reflect canon. The Devs are the ones that restricted players to use their ships in a certain way. Players didn't choose which ship should be a science ship, tank, or DPS ship, it was the devs. That's where your restriction is. They contradicted themselves when they let certain ships play all the roles at the same time, so if they let one group of ship types play multi roles, they should allow all the ships to play multi roles. When Devs makes certain ships out perform others just to make a certain crowd happy, then that is imbalance, and the rest of the players unhappy. If you make a large portion of Star Trek fans unhappy, then they will leave the game and they will populate some other game.
I had used Star Trek canon as a reference to show the bias and inconsistancy in the game. The canon argument was not show what torpedos are supposed to do for damage but to show how far the Devs went to give certain ships an advantage over others. I had started another agument about bringing the DPS of beams to to level of cannons but of course it met stiff opposition from players who use cannons. Torpedos is another matter. One contradiction in just this game is that the torpedos comming from NPC's do great DPS to shields while player's torpedos are nerfed. The bais is when torpedos are ineffective for use on a cruiser since it's beams can not strip down shields, while use on an escort is highly effective because it's cannons easily strip down shields, leaving an exposed hull to be destroyed by torpedos.
Honestly? Canon is a fantastically stupid way to build a game, for several reasons:
1) Most importantly, Star Trek canon is notoriously inconsistent with itself. In any given episode, the writers were more interested in trying to tell a good story than they were with keeping everything consistent across five different live-action series, ten movies, and god-knows how many tech manuals, blueprints, official guides, novels, comics, cartoons, etc. In truth there is no 'one' canon, most people can (and do) take whatever bits they prefer, and handwave away the rest.
2) Canon is restrictive. Even if there were one perfect, internally consistent canon, treating it like a sacred scripture would be horrifically limiting. Since there is a document somewhere that says that Galaxy class phaser arrays are supposedly the most powerful in Starfleet, you now have to make that happen, regardless of the fact that later ships like the Defiant, Prometheus, and Sovereign classes are logically supposed to be 'more powerful' warships. Moreover, you are forced to eliminate whole sections of Star Trek Fandom, because they don't 'fit' - like TOS uniforms? Too bad, those are out-of-date. Like the Excelsior class? Sorry, it's obsolete! Etc. Finally, if you treat canon as a bright boundary around what is acceptable, then you can never progress the story, because every new ship, new race, etc. you add is now 'not canon'.
3) Canon was never, ever designed with an eye towards gameplay. STO is a game, and therefore has different needs than the writers who were creating static narratives. In a movie, we don't really care that a particular ship is more/less powerful than another, or that we can't quite tweak the ship to look/act the way we want, or whatever. We are merely watching the story, not participating in it. Once you are in a game, and ostensibly are a part of the narrative, everything changes - few people are interested in playing a game where they are the perpetual underdogs, for example. Thus, if you stick to 'canon', where a particular ship is 'the best' because a writer said so for plot reasons, then EVERYONE will want that ship - which creates a problem when someone points out that in canon, there were only like 12 of that ship built, so everyone else has to make do with something else. That's highly lame.
Ultimately, if something really bothers you as being 'not canon', all you have to do is do what the Star Trek writers did - spend 5 minutes coming up with a technobabble explanation to cover it. I'll get you started:
As designed, the Prometheus class starship lacked rapid-fire torpedo launchers, as there were concerns that the hull stresses from rapid launches might bind the delicate connectors for the Multi-vector system. However, by 2374, advances in inertial dampener technology enabled far better recoil compensation for torpedo launchers. This, coupled with continuing developments in weapons miniaturization, led to a general refit of the Prometheus' torpedo systems, enabling each launcher to fire up to four torpedoes in rapid succession.
Easy. Give me your next canon issue and I'll solve that too:)
Well spoken, though I agree with the other poster as well.
This thread quickly devolves into " I want .........." and becomes completely unbalanced way often.
So if we designed thew layout of meach ship acording to canon then the akira class (armitage class) would have the abilty to fit 15 torp tubes. hmm that would be a tad over powered, so how thay get round it? with a consule. You can have the ships to the same specs as the shows it would be a technical nightmare.
but a 15 torp tube set up akira would be fun
Been Playing since day one of STO and still likes its
So if we designed thew layout of meach ship acording to canon then the akira class (armitage class) would have the abilty to fit 15 torp tubes. hmm that would be a tad over powered, so how thay get round it? with a consule. You can have the ships to the same specs as the shows it would be a technical nightmare.
but a 15 torp tube set up akira would be fun
No, I didn't say anthything weapon layout but it would only be fun if player torpedos were not nerfed to less than NPC level. There is no game period, that can match canon schematics of weapon numbers because the computer will get bogged down trying to keep up with every fuction. I don't expect the game to let you fire all of the Sovereign's 16 phasers and torpedo launcher. I was trying to point out the contradiction of this game making ships, that aren't designed to fire torpedo spreads, fire 6+ torpedos at one target while the ships, that are designed to fire torpedo srpeads, fire 3 or 4 torpedos at one target. I hope in the future they will gradually add weapon slots to ships so they can get closer to their numbers.
The weapon layouts they have right now are just a basic numbers the Devs picked to keep the program simple. It could of been more or less. Canon layouts can reflect the basic fuction or performance of the ship. For example, the Defiant's canon class comes with quad phaser pulse cannons, so that what should of been on the ship from the start. The ship should have the same shield modifier of 1 as the other ships because it has not been shown as a ship that can take alot of hits from a capitol ship, but rather dodge them. Then let the player decide if he wants to modify his shields, weapons, and engines. BOFFs, I think, should be universal to let the players decide whether his ship will be Tac , Sci or Eng oriented. Also I think the console slots should be universal as well so players can put what ever console that he likes instead of DEVs dictating on how many of certain types consoles can be applied.
The best example of Devs customized ships are the lock box ships. All of them serve completely different purpose that the player is pretty much left out of the loop in customization. One that "takes the cake" is the Jem'Hadar Attack Ship, that seems to be the hardest to kill ship in the game for its, speed and shield durability. The Devs wanted to make it a PVP juggernaught so they gave it extra power mods across weapons, shield, and engines. Canon would of dictated that it couldn't play the juggernaught role becaue it was one the easiest destroyed ship in the show. Once mated with the Borg kit, then its indestructable. Other lock box ships come with their own perks that are customized by the Devs and not the players, thus making a race on who can get the "I Win" ships first. They should make things to where players can make their own "I win" ships out any class ship they want.
STO has your head all screwed up on what's canon and what isn't. Go read Memory Alpha and Beta, to learn ships before you assume something.
I appreciate your assumption about what's going on in my head.. didn't realize you could read minds! Perhaps next time you can ask my permission before reading & analyzing my mind? Thank you.
Anyways I actually do read Memory Alpha as I see fit, but the difference is I am willing to fill in the gaps in order to satisfy any non-canon introduced mechanics into canon so I can have a enjoyable experience with the game.
Just the same as I filled it in with Star Trek Armada I with the Galaxy class having quantum tops and all sorts of those special powers across several ST games.
Fact being though this is the Devs world. Told from their perspectives, their minds (mostly. Restricted by engine, coding complexity etc.). I would LOVE some of these inconsistencies with canon and STO fixed, but considering balancing (being the biggie -- imagine needing 200+ member raid to in-canon take out a tac cube!!), the immense complexities of MMO software coding packages, and other computing restrictions.. if you want to enjoy the game, you gotta loosen up on the canon interpretations some, just like any other ST game.
I'll put a ST DVD into the Blu Ray player when I want total 100% canon.
---
"We are the Borg. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Resistance is futile."
Sincerely,
The Cube Assimilating Your Ship Right Now
I was going to try to respond to you point by point, but it just got silly, so I'll try this:
First, you have no idea what my wishes are, but even if you were right that my only reason for opposing you is that I don't want to lose the 'privileged' status of escorts, that doesn't mean I'm wrong about how dumb canon is as a yardstick.
In fact, everything else that you said about bias etc PROVES my first point - you are deciding which canon YOU like, and discarding anything else, because the canon is so inconsistent that you can do so.
For example, where is your canon source for how (say) the Prometheus and Galaxy classes compare? I'll give you a hint - there ISN'T one. They never go toe-to-toe in the shows, and they are never directly compared side to side. So, now what? We know that both ships are considered by their respective fans as 'the best', and there's no 'objective' canon to guide us as to who wins, so what do we do? No matter what decision we make, it will always involve some measure of 'personal bias' as you put it.
Here's the long and short of it: You have an agenda, you want cruisers to be made more powerful by hook or by crook because you are dissatisfied with how your favorite ship operates, and you are reaching for 'canon' to try to justify your feelings. You are also consistently misrepresenting your personal opinions, biases, and observations as 'fact', when they are nothing of the kind. The fact is that in this game, the Devs made the decision that cruisers were going to be tanks/healers, escorts would do damage, and sci would be debuff/CC. The extent to which they hit those design goals may be up in the air, but that is the theory. If you don't like, it, fine - but don't expect a total overhaul of the fundamental game design theory to match your own bias.
I appreciate your assumption about what's going on in my head.. didn't realize you could read minds! Perhaps next time you can ask my permission before reading & analyzing my mind? Thank you.
Anyways I actually do read Memory Alpha as I see fit, but the difference is I am willing to fill in the gaps in order to satisfy any non-canon introduced mechanics into canon so I can have a enjoyable experience with the game.
Just the same as I filled it in with Star Trek Armada I with the Galaxy class having quantum tops and all sorts of those special powers across several ST games.
Fact being though this is the Devs world. Told from their perspectives, their minds (mostly. Restricted by engine, coding complexity etc.). I would LOVE some of these inconsistencies with canon and STO fixed, but considering balancing (being the biggie -- imagine needing 200+ member raid to in-canon take out a tac cube!!), the immense complexities of MMO software coding packages, and other computing restrictions.. if you want to enjoy the game, you gotta loosen up on the canon interpretations some, just like any other ST game.
I'll put a ST DVD into the Blu Ray player when I want total 100% canon.
Canon is just a guidline from where to start. The Devs have made ships fit their own likes and not let the player have a say in it. Thats where many fans are not happy. I think you have your Star Trek games mixed up. There are no Galaxy Class in Star Trek Armada I, the were in Armada II and ships are not customizable just upgraded. Those torpedos are orange photon torpedos. Only in Starfleet Command III, ships are customizable with weapons, shields, and warp cores. You was just limited to how many weapons were allowed to be put on certain ships. That game is the closest to canon out of all the Star Trek games. The performence of the ship was based on the experience of your crew instead of pormance coming from factory specs. I miss that game.
In this game, in the name of balance they so called cripple one type of ship to let another fit a role. They have gotten carried away with it. Now we have nerfed torpedos, overpowered cannons, and indefensible science abilities. We have one group of ships dominating all the others. Would you say thats balance?
THE DPS OF TORPEDOS NEED TO MATCH THAT OF THE NPC'S.
I was going to try to respond to you point by point, but it just got silly, so I'll try this:
First, you have no idea what my wishes are, but even if you were right that my only reason for opposing you is that I don't want to lose the 'privileged' status of escorts, that doesn't mean I'm wrong about how dumb canon is as a yardstick.
In fact, everything else that you said about bias etc PROVES my first point - you are deciding which canon YOU like, and discarding anything else, because the canon is so inconsistent that you can do so.
For example, where is your canon source for how (say) the Prometheus and Galaxy classes compare? I'll give you a hint - there ISN'T one. They never go toe-to-toe in the shows, and they are never directly compared side to side. So, now what? We know that both ships are considered by their respective fans as 'the best', and there's no 'objective' canon to guide us as to who wins, so what do we do? No matter what decision we make, it will always involve some measure of 'personal bias' as you put it.
Here's the long and short of it: You have an agenda, you want cruisers to be made more powerful by hook or by crook because you are dissatisfied with how your favorite ship operates, and you are reaching for 'canon' to try to justify your feelings. You are also consistently misrepresenting your personal opinions, biases, and observations as 'fact', when they are nothing of the kind. The fact is that in this game, the Devs made the decision that cruisers were going to be tanks/healers, escorts would do damage, and sci would be debuff/CC. The extent to which they hit those design goals may be up in the air, but that is the theory. If you don't like, it, fine - but don't expect a total overhaul of the fundamental game design theory to match your own bias.
Name some canon inconsistancies thats relevant to what we are talking about, Torpedos.
You are right, you only want the escort to be the dominating force. When you are on the receiving end of all the goodies, of course you not going to to see the unfairness. It would be a conflict of interest for you to judge whats ging on in this game. Unfortunately, this game consist of more than just you or one group of people. The balance got away from this game when all the rewards went to the ship getting the most kills. The balance got away when only escorts hog all the vary rare End Game gear while cruisers and other types get common gear. The balance got away when the PVP arenas became dominated by escorts and lock box ship that tank and DPS.
If I wanted to be bais then I would ask for the cruisers to be the best ships in the game, but you did not see any such words coming for me.
Canon is just a guidline from where to start. The Devs have made ships fit their own likes and not let the player have a say in it. Thats where many fans are not happy. I think you have your Star Trek games mixed up. There are no Galaxy Class in Star Trek Armada I, the were in Armada II and ships are not customizable just upgraded. Those torpedos are orange photon torpedos. Only in Starfleet Command III, ships are customizable with weapons, shields, and warp cores. You was just limited to how many weapons were allowed to be put on certain ships. That game is the closest to canon out of all the Star Trek games. The performence of the ship was based on the experience of your crew instead of pormance coming from factory specs. I miss that game.
In this game, in the name of balance they so called cripple one type of ship to let another fit a role. They have gotten carried away with it. Now we have nerfed torpedos, overpowered cannons, and indefensible science abilities. We have one group of ships dominating all the others. Would you say thats balance?
THE DPS OF TORPEDOS NEED TO MATCH THAT OF THE NPC'S.
"Once and Again" first mission in ST Armada I in the "Omega" series of missions, Ambassador's Spock Galaxy is the critical mission ship, 2 more show up in "A Line in the Sand".. additionally you can also have it added to your Adv. Shipyard with a mod. Armada II your quite correct was Galaxy with Photons.
As far as balance goes.. We all have a different perceptions of balance, and no one is ever going to be completely satisfied with any type of balancing act. In my opinion is it balanced? No, but its not absurd. And if they change it? Well everyone is just going to find that "perfect" build yet again, say everything else is a useless class/ability, and repeat this process all over again. Additionally adding this layer of complexity with torp. spread restrictions as just an example is just going to confuse those having to plot out yet another layer of what does what on what type charts detracting from its appeal as a simpler game than others to pick up and play. I wouldn't mind the extra complexity personally but others would.
---
"We are the Borg. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Resistance is futile."
Sincerely,
The Cube Assimilating Your Ship Right Now
while i don't see any reason to change how torpedos work currently, i would have loved to see torpedos as a sort of commodity.
every ship had 1-2 torpedo launchers build in, and you fire torpedos until you run out of them.
lets say a cruiser then had a complement of around 1000 torpedos onboard. and the type is determend by your choice. lets say you have 500 photons and 500 quantum. In combat you have the ability to switch between torpedo types...until you run out.
lets say cruisers and sci vessels had launchers front and aft, while the standard escort had one only in front.
an escort only has a compliment of 500, while a sci had 750 and a cruiser 1000.
something like the device slots...cruisers have 4 slots with 250 per stack, sci 3, etc.
standard common torpedos could be bought from npcs, while rare and very rare were crafted and/or via doff missions aquired.
that is, i hope we all can agree, actually canon since running out of torpedos happend several times during the shows. Also it would give cruisers and sci vessel a slight, still balanced edge towards escorts, because they have more heavy weaponry aboard, and still carry 8 beams.
But again, this is just an idea, i'm not unhappy with the current system.
*edit: i also want to add, that maybe the launcher is a sepperate slot in the ship inventory, like hangars for instance. And launchers can be put in, to maybe increase recharge time or certain types, or base yield, or flying speed.
Rapid launchers as an example: fire 2 torpedos at a time.
or efficent launcher: only uses half torpedo per shot.
We just need 180 degrees launchers. And that torpedoes are not so much mitigated by shields. Said that, I'm using torpedoes on all my ships.
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you wanna give the cruisers back thier bite give them torp launchers that fire in 360 degree arcs..... regardless of the torpedo type... if its a torp that gets mounted on a cruiser it gets a 360 degree firing arc period... but only for the Fed Cruisers... since no one plays KDF anymore since all the good KDF toys are available to feds already anyway....
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Personally I would replace those TAC weapon mod. powers with other emphasizing mobility and tactics, use the beam/cannon/torpedo/mine powers in an additional system (targeting computer, first officer or whatever) that's independent of the type of ship, then make each class of ship favor a type of weapon, dual cannons for escorts, beam arrays for cruisers and torpedo weapons for science ships, and balance it out so that any type of ship of the same tier with similar gear would do and survive the same amount of damage, just in a different way as I described above.
at least you're consistent lol
I agree whole heartedly. I just made this thread about weapons, because its a step to recognize the imbalance and what can be fixed. Its your weapons that will gain you rewards for kills in PVP and PVE. You can make the case about mobilty, HP and resistance, shields, and BOFF layout.
I wouldn't ask for 360 degree arcs for torpedos because it wouldn't make sense. There is no such torpedo weapon in Star Trek canon. Just give the torpedos more teeth and they are fine where they are. The most attacked part of a cruiser from an escort is it's rear, so puting powerful torpedos in that area would discourage players from hanging back there too long. It's like when you fight the NPC Dreadnoughts, you avoid hanging around its front and rear arcs because it's torpedo spreads will deal you a death blow or near death blow.
I can also agree to a certain extent about the ST Shows not showing something like what Spread III looks like, however nor do we see every torpedo spread strike the captains have ordered while in battle, so it is entirely possible we never were shown it, and to a certain extent too it might not have had that effect to help save on the vfx costs of episodes.
I'll have to disagree with you on torps doing nothing to shields.. they certainly can and cruisers still get spread II or high yield II whichever of your choosing. Obviously builds are quite different across the board so torpedo damage varies in mileage, and if your finding torps being too restrictive for you, I'd suggest the rapid-reload transphasic torps, then it matters even less if shields are up or not. Grab a tractor too if you need something to hold your target long enough to squeeze the launcher in the arc, then your set.
My only 1 annoyance I get with torps is when that 30-45K tricobolt torpedo hits a shield sliver and is reduced to like 2K, but I shrug it off and just keep on the pressure.
"We are the Borg. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Resistance is futile."
Sincerely,
The Cube Assimilating Your Ship Right Now
And what happens with escorts equip these stronger torp launchers?
They can reverse the amount of torpedos per spread for the escort, so instead of the cruisers having the least amounts of torpedos per volley, the escorts should get the least, since they can arm cannons.
Just read Memory Alpha about the Galaxy Class tactical systems and it will explain why it can fire a torpedo spread of five at one time. None of the other ship classes even mention it.
"There were also fore and aft torpedo launchers on the engineering section. (TNG: "Conundrum") Each launch tube was capable of firing at least five photon torpedoes simultaneously, each torpedo capable of being independently targeted. (TNG: "The Arsenal of Freedom", "Yesterday's Enterprise") "
Ref: http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Galaxy_class
There are also many cruiser setups that'll work wonders with exposing the hull. Grab 4 to 6 tetryon beams, and load the other slots with torps, let the tetryon strip the shields down, turn slightly to fire off that high yield 2/spread II on the exposed hull works wonderfully. Other hybrid beam types that will do shield damge also apply. Further enhanced with flow capacitors in the particular build.
There is also the ability to take polarons, and a sci energy siphon ability to really reduce all of their abilities, maybe even cause shields to drop briefly for a nice shieldless torpedo hit.
Then there finally is the all up straight up torpedo fun building, taking all torpedos, 2 or 3(depending on max tac consoles) consoles of that specialized torpedo damage enhancers, with skills in torpedos, and then of course the reduced torpedo fire time duty officers and all torpedos or not those shields and hull will take a beating.
Simply put, there are several options avaliable to cruisers that while not quite as direct as a rapid fire heavy cannon escort to bring a shield facing down, shows the options are there.
"We are the Borg. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Resistance is futile."
Sincerely,
The Cube Assimilating Your Ship Right Now
Negative, you can't assume the ability of tactical systems just because you would like a ship to perform a certain way. If the manual donesn't say it or its not mentioned in Memory Alpha or Beta, then is doesn't happen.
The Akira didn't fire spreads, it fired consecutively. The word "spread" was mentioned in describing the array of torpedo lauchers, since it has 15 independent launchers. Nothing said about a single burst of torpedos. It doesn't have one large torpedo bay that can fit five torpedos in it at a time. The Akira is not even supposed to be an escort, armed with cannons, like in this game but a Heavy Cruise that can launch small crafts.
The Prometheus says phasers and torpedos as armaments, and the only things making it special is it's multi vector system, regenerative shielding and it is the fastest warp ship in the fleet at the time. I'm sure if it had special torpedo abilities it would not have gone unmentioned.
STO has your head all screwed up on what's canon and what isn't. Go read Memory Alpha and Beta, to learn ships before you assume something.
That's not just the OP, btw. I've noticed it in almost every damn thread, it's a wonder the Devs haven't given up in disgust at the playerbase.
Back to the thread though, I don't see the problem at all. If you want to be more DPS go grab an escort from ship requisitions, it's not that difficult, or if you want your cruiser class to do more damage learn to adapt your playstyle/consoles/loadout, but you're going to have to accept that making a ship that does absolutely everything will REALLY TRIBBLE the balance.
Personally, I love the escort DPS ability, but I've stopped using my escort because having all the firepower in the world doesn't mean anything when you spend half the STF on res timer, (and yet I don't see escort player crying in the forum threatening to ragequit if they don't get the same resilience as the cruisers) so I changed from an escort TO a cruiser. At first I thought I'd have to resign myself to doing minimal damage but instead of throwing a tantrum at the Devs I changed my playstyle/loadout and now my cruiser actually outperforms my escort in every field!
My point is this, no one ship class is better than any other in my experience, it's just a matter of finding one that suits your playstyle and then modifying it to compliment the goal you're aiming for, oh, and also learn to accept that you can't have everything your own way, trust me, you'll feel better when you stop sweating over the inconsequential stuff.
Thats where the balance is gone. This game is supposed to be balance and fun for every type of player, not just escort flyers. Its easy for you to just go with the flow, no matter how wrong it is. You not the type of person that believes in fighting for their right. If you don't like the threads, because they are not singing praises, then close you eyes, don't look at them. You are not a Dev so you don't know what they are thinking. They type in yellow anyway when they speak.
I will say this again, THERE IS NO REWARD FOR TAKING HITS OR MAKING SPAM IN THIS GAME. YOU ONLY GET CREDIT FOR KILLS.
Honestly? Canon is a fantastically stupid way to build a game, for several reasons:
1) Most importantly, Star Trek canon is notoriously inconsistent with itself. In any given episode, the writers were more interested in trying to tell a good story than they were with keeping everything consistent across five different live-action series, ten movies, and god-knows how many tech manuals, blueprints, official guides, novels, comics, cartoons, etc. In truth there is no 'one' canon, most people can (and do) take whatever bits they prefer, and handwave away the rest.
2) Canon is restrictive. Even if there were one perfect, internally consistent canon, treating it like a sacred scripture would be horrifically limiting. Since there is a document somewhere that says that Galaxy class phaser arrays are supposedly the most powerful in Starfleet, you now have to make that happen, regardless of the fact that later ships like the Defiant, Prometheus, and Sovereign classes are logically supposed to be 'more powerful' warships. Moreover, you are forced to eliminate whole sections of Star Trek Fandom, because they don't 'fit' - like TOS uniforms? Too bad, those are out-of-date. Like the Excelsior class? Sorry, it's obsolete! Etc. Finally, if you treat canon as a bright boundary around what is acceptable, then you can never progress the story, because every new ship, new race, etc. you add is now 'not canon'.
3) Canon was never, ever designed with an eye towards gameplay. STO is a game, and therefore has different needs than the writers who were creating static narratives. In a movie, we don't really care that a particular ship is more/less powerful than another, or that we can't quite tweak the ship to look/act the way we want, or whatever. We are merely watching the story, not participating in it. Once you are in a game, and ostensibly are a part of the narrative, everything changes - few people are interested in playing a game where they are the perpetual underdogs, for example. Thus, if you stick to 'canon', where a particular ship is 'the best' because a writer said so for plot reasons, then EVERYONE will want that ship - which creates a problem when someone points out that in canon, there were only like 12 of that ship built, so everyone else has to make do with something else. That's highly lame.
Ultimately, if something really bothers you as being 'not canon', all you have to do is do what the Star Trek writers did - spend 5 minutes coming up with a technobabble explanation to cover it. I'll get you started:
As designed, the Prometheus class starship lacked rapid-fire torpedo launchers, as there were concerns that the hull stresses from rapid launches might bind the delicate connectors for the Multi-vector system. However, by 2374, advances in inertial dampener technology enabled far better recoil compensation for torpedo launchers. This, coupled with continuing developments in weapons miniaturization, led to a general refit of the Prometheus' torpedo systems, enabling each launcher to fire up to four torpedoes in rapid succession.
Easy. Give me your next canon issue and I'll solve that too:)
Well played sir. *tips hat*
not entirely true, you get credit for healing done, dmg done, assistant kills, and objectives completed...half of those do not include dealing dmg.
example: starbase 24, if you heal yourself while taking the beating from multiple ships (tanking) you will end up first place and get the shiny loot.
on the subject of building games 100% canon, i think mrtshead said everything there is to say about the it...and more.
i want to add, that maybe an adventure or something of that kind...most definately a singleplayer game can be 100% canon, but multiplayer is basically impossible..otherwise it becomes dull, even more than STO is right now.
on a related subject: just wondering if this thread too will hit 60 pages with a circleing argument that basically is just a "need help, i can't make it work" kind of thing.
torpedos are far from useless, if used correctly they are dangerous burst weapons on any starship class.
also, i find torpedo damage in canon actuually laughable and beyond reasonable. Consider that even a weak nuclear device is far more powerfull than even a tricobald device in the shows. Also very contradicting in shows...when the defiant fired quantum torpedos on a planet you could see the explosions from orbit...yet when they are fired during battle it has the power of 500lb conventional bomb...even if they specifically say highest yield.
So comparing canon torpedos with ingame torpedos is absolutely flawed, since not even canon can establish the firepower of a torpedo. And the yield setting is a crappy explanation for that, the effects are tuned for scrren effect, nothing more...the game tries to copy that. The flaw of those torpedos lie within canon, not in the game actually. If torpedos where presented consequently in only ONE way, than the game would reproduce them accordingly, but they are not...so you can't even copy canon torpedos since that would mean they are incredibly powerfull one time and incredibly weak the next time.
basically what crytic did as a workaround to this canon dilemma, they made them on hull only powerfull. thats pretty genius from a gameplay point of view and since there wasn't really much to work with from canon.
fairy tail bla bal bal
fairy tail bla bal bal
Canon is a fantastically stupid in your opinion because you don't like guidlines that conflict with your wishes. Canon is not restrictive, it should be a guideline from which a story starts and how baseline schematics on technology starts. After that, then you can add customization. Canon can be an excuse if they wanted to use a reason why they made certain ships act a certain way, but when there is no canon fact to back it it up, then it show a personal bais. The base turn rates, powers, and known ship abilities should follow canon first then allow players to customize as they they see fit. It this game, the abilities of the ships are mostly customized by the DEV's instead of the players because of BOFF layouts, console layouts, ship inert modifiers, and base performance that don't reflect canon. The Devs are the ones that restricted players to use their ships in a certain way. Players didn't choose which ship should be a science ship, tank, or DPS ship, it was the devs. That's where your restriction is. They contradicted themselves when they let certain ships play all the roles at the same time, so if they let one group of ship types play multi roles, they should allow all the ships to play multi roles. When Devs makes certain ships out perform others just to make a certain crowd happy, then that is imbalance, and the rest of the players unhappy. If you make a large portion of Star Trek fans unhappy, then they will leave the game and they will populate some other game.
Well spoken, though I agree with the other poster as well.
This thread quickly devolves into " I want .........." and becomes completely unbalanced way often.
R.I.P
but a 15 torp tube set up akira would be fun
No, I didn't say anthything weapon layout but it would only be fun if player torpedos were not nerfed to less than NPC level. There is no game period, that can match canon schematics of weapon numbers because the computer will get bogged down trying to keep up with every fuction. I don't expect the game to let you fire all of the Sovereign's 16 phasers and torpedo launcher. I was trying to point out the contradiction of this game making ships, that aren't designed to fire torpedo spreads, fire 6+ torpedos at one target while the ships, that are designed to fire torpedo srpeads, fire 3 or 4 torpedos at one target. I hope in the future they will gradually add weapon slots to ships so they can get closer to their numbers.
The weapon layouts they have right now are just a basic numbers the Devs picked to keep the program simple. It could of been more or less. Canon layouts can reflect the basic fuction or performance of the ship. For example, the Defiant's canon class comes with quad phaser pulse cannons, so that what should of been on the ship from the start. The ship should have the same shield modifier of 1 as the other ships because it has not been shown as a ship that can take alot of hits from a capitol ship, but rather dodge them. Then let the player decide if he wants to modify his shields, weapons, and engines. BOFFs, I think, should be universal to let the players decide whether his ship will be Tac , Sci or Eng oriented. Also I think the console slots should be universal as well so players can put what ever console that he likes instead of DEVs dictating on how many of certain types consoles can be applied.
The best example of Devs customized ships are the lock box ships. All of them serve completely different purpose that the player is pretty much left out of the loop in customization. One that "takes the cake" is the Jem'Hadar Attack Ship, that seems to be the hardest to kill ship in the game for its, speed and shield durability. The Devs wanted to make it a PVP juggernaught so they gave it extra power mods across weapons, shield, and engines. Canon would of dictated that it couldn't play the juggernaught role becaue it was one the easiest destroyed ship in the show. Once mated with the Borg kit, then its indestructable. Other lock box ships come with their own perks that are customized by the Devs and not the players, thus making a race on who can get the "I Win" ships first. They should make things to where players can make their own "I win" ships out any class ship they want.
I appreciate your assumption about what's going on in my head.. didn't realize you could read minds! Perhaps next time you can ask my permission before reading & analyzing my mind? Thank you.
Anyways I actually do read Memory Alpha as I see fit, but the difference is I am willing to fill in the gaps in order to satisfy any non-canon introduced mechanics into canon so I can have a enjoyable experience with the game.
Just the same as I filled it in with Star Trek Armada I with the Galaxy class having quantum tops and all sorts of those special powers across several ST games.
Fact being though this is the Devs world. Told from their perspectives, their minds (mostly. Restricted by engine, coding complexity etc.). I would LOVE some of these inconsistencies with canon and STO fixed, but considering balancing (being the biggie -- imagine needing 200+ member raid to in-canon take out a tac cube!!), the immense complexities of MMO software coding packages, and other computing restrictions.. if you want to enjoy the game, you gotta loosen up on the canon interpretations some, just like any other ST game.
I'll put a ST DVD into the Blu Ray player when I want total 100% canon.
"We are the Borg. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Resistance is futile."
Sincerely,
The Cube Assimilating Your Ship Right Now
I was going to try to respond to you point by point, but it just got silly, so I'll try this:
First, you have no idea what my wishes are, but even if you were right that my only reason for opposing you is that I don't want to lose the 'privileged' status of escorts, that doesn't mean I'm wrong about how dumb canon is as a yardstick.
In fact, everything else that you said about bias etc PROVES my first point - you are deciding which canon YOU like, and discarding anything else, because the canon is so inconsistent that you can do so.
For example, where is your canon source for how (say) the Prometheus and Galaxy classes compare? I'll give you a hint - there ISN'T one. They never go toe-to-toe in the shows, and they are never directly compared side to side. So, now what? We know that both ships are considered by their respective fans as 'the best', and there's no 'objective' canon to guide us as to who wins, so what do we do? No matter what decision we make, it will always involve some measure of 'personal bias' as you put it.
Here's the long and short of it: You have an agenda, you want cruisers to be made more powerful by hook or by crook because you are dissatisfied with how your favorite ship operates, and you are reaching for 'canon' to try to justify your feelings. You are also consistently misrepresenting your personal opinions, biases, and observations as 'fact', when they are nothing of the kind. The fact is that in this game, the Devs made the decision that cruisers were going to be tanks/healers, escorts would do damage, and sci would be debuff/CC. The extent to which they hit those design goals may be up in the air, but that is the theory. If you don't like, it, fine - but don't expect a total overhaul of the fundamental game design theory to match your own bias.
Canon is just a guidline from where to start. The Devs have made ships fit their own likes and not let the player have a say in it. Thats where many fans are not happy. I think you have your Star Trek games mixed up. There are no Galaxy Class in Star Trek Armada I, the were in Armada II and ships are not customizable just upgraded. Those torpedos are orange photon torpedos. Only in Starfleet Command III, ships are customizable with weapons, shields, and warp cores. You was just limited to how many weapons were allowed to be put on certain ships. That game is the closest to canon out of all the Star Trek games. The performence of the ship was based on the experience of your crew instead of pormance coming from factory specs. I miss that game.
In this game, in the name of balance they so called cripple one type of ship to let another fit a role. They have gotten carried away with it. Now we have nerfed torpedos, overpowered cannons, and indefensible science abilities. We have one group of ships dominating all the others. Would you say thats balance?
THE DPS OF TORPEDOS NEED TO MATCH THAT OF THE NPC'S.
Name some canon inconsistancies thats relevant to what we are talking about, Torpedos.
You are right, you only want the escort to be the dominating force. When you are on the receiving end of all the goodies, of course you not going to to see the unfairness. It would be a conflict of interest for you to judge whats ging on in this game. Unfortunately, this game consist of more than just you or one group of people. The balance got away from this game when all the rewards went to the ship getting the most kills. The balance got away when only escorts hog all the vary rare End Game gear while cruisers and other types get common gear. The balance got away when the PVP arenas became dominated by escorts and lock box ship that tank and DPS.
If I wanted to be bais then I would ask for the cruisers to be the best ships in the game, but you did not see any such words coming for me.
"Once and Again" first mission in ST Armada I in the "Omega" series of missions, Ambassador's Spock Galaxy is the critical mission ship, 2 more show up in "A Line in the Sand".. additionally you can also have it added to your Adv. Shipyard with a mod. Armada II your quite correct was Galaxy with Photons.
As far as balance goes.. We all have a different perceptions of balance, and no one is ever going to be completely satisfied with any type of balancing act. In my opinion is it balanced? No, but its not absurd. And if they change it? Well everyone is just going to find that "perfect" build yet again, say everything else is a useless class/ability, and repeat this process all over again. Additionally adding this layer of complexity with torp. spread restrictions as just an example is just going to confuse those having to plot out yet another layer of what does what on what type charts detracting from its appeal as a simpler game than others to pick up and play. I wouldn't mind the extra complexity personally but others would.
"We are the Borg. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Resistance is futile."
Sincerely,
The Cube Assimilating Your Ship Right Now
every ship had 1-2 torpedo launchers build in, and you fire torpedos until you run out of them.
lets say a cruiser then had a complement of around 1000 torpedos onboard. and the type is determend by your choice. lets say you have 500 photons and 500 quantum. In combat you have the ability to switch between torpedo types...until you run out.
lets say cruisers and sci vessels had launchers front and aft, while the standard escort had one only in front.
an escort only has a compliment of 500, while a sci had 750 and a cruiser 1000.
something like the device slots...cruisers have 4 slots with 250 per stack, sci 3, etc.
standard common torpedos could be bought from npcs, while rare and very rare were crafted and/or via doff missions aquired.
that is, i hope we all can agree, actually canon since running out of torpedos happend several times during the shows. Also it would give cruisers and sci vessel a slight, still balanced edge towards escorts, because they have more heavy weaponry aboard, and still carry 8 beams.
But again, this is just an idea, i'm not unhappy with the current system.
*edit: i also want to add, that maybe the launcher is a sepperate slot in the ship inventory, like hangars for instance. And launchers can be put in, to maybe increase recharge time or certain types, or base yield, or flying speed.
Rapid launchers as an example: fire 2 torpedos at a time.
or efficent launcher: only uses half torpedo per shot.