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Not able to put enough kinetic resistances

omgrandalthoromgrandalthor Member Posts: 364 Arc User
edited October 2012 in PvP Gameplay
Ok fully specked in armor and 2 MKXI kinetic resistance consoles on because that is all the escort allows you still get insta killed by the 4 tric mines. This was in a test the ship hit was moving with EPS1 Tacteam and TSS2 going it still got killed instantly :/ below are the mine damage to the ship done with a MKXI Tricobalt mine. so anyone know how to get a ship over 100k hull?!

Dr.Evil deals 1398 (28516) Kinetic Damage to you with Mine Explosion.

Dr.Evil deals 3153 (30657) Kinetic Damage to you with Mine Explosion.

Dr.Evil deals 23420 (23889) Kinetic Damage to you with Mine Explosion.

Dr.Evil deals 29551 (30142) Kinetic Damage to you with Mine Explosion.
Post edited by Unknown User on
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  • skurfskurf Member Posts: 1,071 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Kill the mines, fly away from them, or hit brace for impact. It's not worth wasting engineering console slots on something so specific when they could be used to help with other, more widespread issues, like energy damage, turning radius, etc. The only time I use monotanium is if their team is transphasic heavy.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    i talked about mines and the resist skill, seems people just dont care atm. higher things on the list?
  • omgrandalthoromgrandalthor Member Posts: 364 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    I do fly away from them! Never get to fight in karrat any more because every one I see in there is dropping these so not only do you have 4 on your butt its more like 16 chasing you around then the subnuke tb spam on top yea boom lol. In large fights you cant always see them stealthy little TRIBBLE they are!
  • skurfskurf Member Posts: 1,071 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Mines are one reason I carry cannon scatter volley. Even a scatter volley from only your rear turrets will take out all the mines. And when you run from them, if you hit evasive or APO there's no way they will hit you.
  • tick0tick0 Member Posts: 243 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    I'm in the boat of wanting them balanced. It's just ridiculous how they are at the moment.

    And if they're not overpowered, then why the spontaneous massive increase in the use of them? Hmm?

    There are many situations where you simply cannot hit them / cannot out-manoeuvre them. For example, how easy would it be to just tractor someone (if you've any common sense, you'd do this when they've got no hold resistances up or if they're on CD), AMS them, use Dispersal Pattern Beta 3 and dumb 4 tric mines next to them. Boom, dead. This seems to be widely popular for B'Rels currently.

    That's just one example...
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  • bubblygumsworthbubblygumsworth Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Point defence, TBR, grav wells, cannon scatter volley.

    Looks like that you're getting hit with tric mines, you can avoid this.
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  • omgrandalthoromgrandalthor Member Posts: 364 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    2 tric mines with disp pat 3 beats the cool-down of csv and point defense :/ best i see is the old die warp out or omega run and pray they don't subnuke you! And if they ams you or scramble you yea you go boom! Found a new troll to do with them in my temporal ship fly up drop em rewind time when it is done they are already blowing up lol.
  • tick0tick0 Member Posts: 243 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Point defence, TBR, grav wells, cannon scatter volley.

    Looks like that you're getting hit with tric mines, you can avoid this.

    This way or the highway? No thanks.

    All builds shouldn't be thrown around the place all due to the simple buff of a mine type. That's ridiculous. Balance them out to a reasonable level and all of our problems are solved.

    EDIT: Had a fun interfleet match with Show Me Your Critz today. Here's the results from a parser:

    http://sphotos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/286156_4373640331562_1310939049_o.jpg

    As we can see, Ricky Bobby dealt a tonne of damage. Let's look into this hax!

    http://sphotos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/169119_4373679212534_615267676_o.jpg

    I don't know about you, but when I saw that 'Mine Explosion' accounted for 1.27 million of his damage score (that's 23% as you can see in the pie chart), I went WUUUUUUUUUUUT. So I asked Ricky Bobby what mine he was using on the aft of his Jem... He said he was using a single tric mine, unspecced.

    This just doesn't seem right...
    star_trek_razzle_dazzle_by_schematization-d37701m.gif
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  • rjam0rjam0 Member Posts: 70 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Dr.Evil deals 29551 (30142) Kinetic Damage to you with Mine Explosion.

    Firstly, the player name...:rolleyes:

    Secondly, the worst thing about these mines is that if one of them hits for a crit...they all crit on you...not only instapopping you, but by some freak miracle...you don't die from them, you're disabled from the Tricobalt anomalies...
  • pottsey5gpottsey5g Member Posts: 4,326 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    tick0 wrote: »
    /hphotos-ak-snc6/286156_4373640331562_1310939049_o.jpg[/URL]

    As we can see, Ricky Bobby dealt a tonne of damage. Let's look into this hax!

    http://sphotos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/169119_4373679212534_615267676_o.jpg

    I don't know about you, but when I saw that 'Mine Explosion' accounted for 1.27 million of his damage score (that's 23% as you can see in the pie chart), I went WUUUUUUUUUUUT. So I asked Ricky Bobby what mine he was using on the aft of his Jem... He said he was using a single tric mine, unspecced.

    This just doesn't seem right...
    Seems perfectly fine to me as dispersal pattern 3 is a Commander skill most likely backed up by the attack pattern that lowers Kinetic resistance. Why should a weapon that fires once ever 60seconds with a commander power not do high damage?

    Do your really think 23% is too much damage for a commander skill? How much damage do the other DPS commander skills do? If anything dispersal pattern 3 is on the low end of damage. How does it compare to commander level rapid fire or scatter volly? EDIT: Looking at your link the Commander skill did almost half the damge with mines over the lt commander skill. You also have to take into account mines are AoE so if 3 targets are hit that is x3 DPS on parser even if 2 of those targets only took a dint to shields.

    The real problem is Engineers are meant to be the mine layers but Engineers in cruisers do not have access to Commander Mine powers.
  • tick0tick0 Member Posts: 243 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    pottsey5g wrote: »
    Seems perfectly fine to me as dispersal pattern 3 is a Commander skill most likely backed up by the attack pattern that lowers Kinetic resistance. Why should a weapon that fires once ever 60seconds with a commander power not do high damage?

    Do your really think 23% is too much damage for a commander skill? How much damage do the other DPS commander skills do? If anything dispersal pattern 3 is on the low end of damage. How does it compare to commander level rapid fire or scatter volly? EDIT: Looking at your link the Commander skill did almost half the damge with mines over the lt commander skill. You also have to take into account mines are AoE so if 3 targets are hit that is x3 DPS on parser even if 2 of those targets only took a dint to shields.

    The real problem is Engineers are meant to be the mine layers but Engineers in cruisers do not have access to Commander Mine powers.

    Um, I have no idea where you're getting Dispersal Pattern 3 from. Ricky Bobby doesn't use those at all... And I don't believe he uses Attack Pattern Beta either if that's what you were getting at when you said "lowers Kinetic resistance".

    We're talking about a single tricobalt mine with no speccing into kinetic damage or use of dispersal patterns whatsoever. Also, as you pointed out, it has a 60 second CD. All of this and yet that little lonesome tric accounted for a quarter of his overall damage score.

    Btw, I have nothing against Ricky in this situation, it's just a good example.
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  • carl103carl103 Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    To be far he'd have got better % totals out of other mine types as tric's have the lowest DPS of the lot. But from a raw balance PoV i've long thought tric's should be dropped in damage 50% and dropped in CD 50%. Would put paid to the silly super crits.
  • tick0tick0 Member Posts: 243 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    carl103 wrote: »
    To be far he'd have got better % totals out of other mine types as tric's have the lowest DPS of the lot.

    Actually, he wouldn't have. If you compare it to someone who uses Chroniton Mines, the damage difference is quite large.

    A good example is the match we had before this. One of the escorts on my team, Jam0, was using a single unspecced Chroniton Mine Launcher which accounted for 76,524 (4%) of his damage total. Since this match only lasted 12 minutes compared to the second match which lasted 22 minutes, you can assume that it could have been about 150,000.
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  • bareelbareel Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    The real problem with them IMHO is something that also applies to torp spread/HY as well in some situations (like Dono).

    As you can see from the log even though they all likely hit within mere seconds of one another the first two dropped your shield and its corresponding resistance allowing the others to hit for full (relatively) damage to your hull. Torp Spead with its multiple instant hits does the same thing. Also of note if the hit deals enough damage to drop the shield it seems that it also ignores the shield's resistance even if part of the damage is applied to the shield but I never truly tested that.

    Simply put if they hit so fast not even tac team can redistribute the shield then they should be reduced by the shields resistance as well. Anything else is simply a bug IMHO. This would also fix the balance issue.
  • matteo716maikaimatteo716maikai Member Posts: 823
    edited October 2012
    I dunno about you but when I use my tric mine launchers it amazes me at how often I only get 10k or so for a hit. That's usually after I've sensor scanned them ad grav pulses them. Of course I fly science so unless I know their shields down (shield stripper) the mines don't get numbers anywhere near what I hear they can get. Even when I do know the shields down I get no more then 35k to a hit.

    Sounds like to me the mines are fine, it's buffs as a tactical (and tactical buffs) applying to them that make them insane... Sounds a lot like the issue with tacs and science powers to me.

    FAw and scatter volley and situational awareness and te point defense turret and the auto defense turret and using mines of your own or using pets on intercept... Sounds like a fair enough ways to "counter" this weapon to me. Oh ad any aoe dmg ability (shockwave grav well turns rift eject warp plasma)

    Since I'm science I have to actually plan my mine drops I can't just dump them and wait for a magic number hit like a tac captain can. Why should I be punished for using finess when they're causing the issue with brute strength?
  • bareelbareel Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Ok just did a little bit of quick testing and there IS a bug with shield resists vs Kinetic damage somewhere. I just don't know where exactly.

    I sat there and shot at a ship with a Q torp buffed to hit for between 6.5k up to 18k per hit and the resistances were not consistent at all as reported by the log. Perhaps I am just misreading it I didn't have enough time on my good box to do a through test but with shields up at times it would reduce the damage by up to 90% from a crit and at other times barely by 50%. It was...odd. If someone with more time/expertise on the matter wants to take a crack at it we just all might learn something.
  • carl103carl103 Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Actually, he wouldn't have. If you compare it to someone who uses Chroniton Mines, the damage difference is quite large.

    A good example is the match we had before this. One of the escorts on my team, Jam0, was using a single unspecced Chroniton Mine Launcher which accounted for 76,524 (4%) of his damage total. Since this match only lasted 12 minutes compared to the second match which lasted 22 minutes, you can assume that it could have been about 150,000.

    Sorry but it's a lower DPS mine, you can't not get better values out of it. I'd suggest your freind is just very good with mines by comparision to the other guy or was using them in a drasticlly diffrent way.

    That said, like i allready mentioned, the real issue is it's too bursy with that 60 second CD. Cut it to 30 with an equally large base damage drop and the silly supercrits and 4x super crits go bye bye without hurting it overall.
  • shimmerlessshimmerless Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    I think part of the gripe comes from the fact that it costs very little to put a tric on any ship, even if you don't intend on building around it or buffing it in any way. If they were front weapons people would probably have a lot less of a problem, but as it stands what do you lose really for fielding one? A turret?
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  • pottsey5gpottsey5g Member Posts: 4,326 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    tick0 wrote: »
    Um, I have no idea where you're getting Dispersal Pattern 3 from. Ricky Bobby doesn't use those at all... And I don't believe he uses Attack Pattern Beta either if that's what you were getting at when you said "lowers Kinetic resistance".

    We're talking about a single tricobalt mine with no speccing into kinetic damage or use of dispersal patterns whatsoever. Also, as you pointed out, it has a 60 second CD. All of this and yet that little lonesome tric accounted for a quarter of his overall damage score.

    Btw, I have nothing against Ricky in this situation, it's just a good example.
    The only way he could get that many hits with that DPS is to use Dispersal Patterns. I might be wrong about the level used but looking at the numbers there is no way he did not use Dispersal Patterns. A single tricobalt mine with a 100% hit ratio averages out at 556dps with his numbers and a single tricobalt would take over 38 minutes to drop 38mines. As the match was under 38mins and as the DPS was higher than 556 he must have used Dispersal Patterns unless I missed something. I see nothing wrong with around 1000dps from a skill.

    EDIT: Well I guess he could have done it without Dispersal Patterns if he used more then 1 mine launcher.
  • falloutx23falloutx23 Member Posts: 456
    edited October 2012
    pottsey5g wrote: »
    The only way he could get that many hits with that DPS is to use Dispersal Patterns. I might be wrong about the level used but looking at the numbers there is no way he did not use Dispersal Patterns. A single tricobalt mine with a 100% hit ratio averages out at 556dps with his numbers and a single tricobalt would take over 38 minutes to drop 38mines. As the match was under 38mins and as the DPS was higher than 556 he must have used Dispersal Patterns unless I missed something. I see nothing wrong with around 1000dps from a skill.

    EDIT: Well I guess he could have done it without Dispersal Patterns if he used more then 1 mine launcher.

    your factoring in critz, APA, GDF, Tacfleet, FOMM, Sensor scans, and all hull debuffs that are being applied at the time they're hitting?
  • husanakxhusanakx Member Posts: 1,674 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    I don't agree that these need adjusting myself... I will say though that yes Ricks numbers are 100% one mine with zero patterns.

    Tric mines are stupid good... they are mostly easy to defend against.... I don't care for 2 things 1 they are easy to loose in the spam fields. I would like to see any MES value tric mines where given removed. They are the one mine type that doesn't deserve such a thing. Secondly they are AOE and they will kill you if you are just anywhere close to them... which makes for sort of dumb complete luck mechanics when one hits a sci fleet ship... or someone Elses Mine Ect. Considering that people can now lay up to 4 of them... I would like to see the aoe turned down a bit on them.
  • pottsey5gpottsey5g Member Posts: 4,326 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    falloutx23 wrote: »
    your factoring in critz, APA, GDF, Tacfleet, FOMM, Sensor scans, and all hull debuffs that are being applied at the time they're hitting?
    Yes all included. He did 38hits, highest hit 54,525, lowest hit 0, average hit for everything 33,418.39. Assuming he had it on auto fire and no other mines 1 launcher means 1 shot every 60seconds so 557dps if he did not use attack patterns.

    Either two mine launchers or 1 mine launcher with attack pattern 1 should in theory double DPS to 1,114. Although in practice I expect a lot of miss?s so my bets are he used pattern 2 or 3. Hard to say without seeing the full log and how many 0 damage hits he had.
  • pottsey5gpottsey5g Member Posts: 4,326 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    husanakx wrote: »
    I will say though that yes Ricks numbers are 100% one mine with zero patterns.
    How is that possible without cheating? 1 mine per 60seconds over 20mins means a max of 20mines dropped. He dropped way more than 20 mines.
  • carl103carl103 Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    AFAIK don't projectile doffs effect the CD? can't remeber...
  • bitemepwebitemepwe Member Posts: 6,760 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    tick0 wrote: »
    I'm in the boat of wanting them balanced. It's just ridiculous how they are at the moment.

    And if they're not overpowered, then why the spontaneous massive increase in the use of them? Hmm?

    There are many situations where you simply cannot hit them / cannot out-manoeuvre them. For example, how easy would it be to just tractor someone (if you've any common sense, you'd do this when they've got no hold resistances up or if they're on CD), AMS them, use Dispersal Pattern Beta 3 and dumb 4 tric mines next to them. Boom, dead. This seems to be widely popular for B'Rels currently.

    That's just one example...

    Mines arenpopular now becuase the mine BOff abilities where recently buffed and I think mines in general got alittle direct love.

    I use a single unbuffed Tric and its even good that way. Especially if you time the use of fomm or ApD with it.

    In general mines now have a use incombat and people are finding combo's to use them in
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  • pottsey5gpottsey5g Member Posts: 4,326 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    carl103 wrote: »
    AFAIK don't projectile doffs effect the CD? can't remeber...
    Projectile doffs should only work for Torpedoes. Anyone tested them with mines?
  • husanakxhusanakx Member Posts: 1,674 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    No torp doffs don't effect mines.

    Yes Ricky uses one torpedo. No he doesn't cheat.

    It was an interfleet all escort pew pew match. He was in an escort running omega and captain tac buffs. I wouldn't doubt he caught 2 at once a few times perhaps not killing both but still doing massive dmg... it adds up pretty darn quickly.

    I don't myself think the dmg is the issue (yes its stupid high)... I don't think with that type of dmg that they even really deserve to be aoe anymore though... considering they can be patterned if you want an aoe style effect... they for sure don't deserve the rift chance. Any MES value they have should be removed as well.
  • bitemepwebitemepwe Member Posts: 6,760 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    falloutx23 wrote: »
    your factoring in critz, APA, GDF, Tacfleet, FOMM, Sensor scans, and all hull debuffs that are being applied at the time they're hitting?

    All the normal Tac buffs aply to mines like any weapon, why not attempt to use them?

    A good ApA, Fomm, GDF, APO, TF always helps.

    In fact I surprised Kedric yesterday with a Tac buffed 40k Tric hit in Kerrat.

    I dont think they are OP at all. They are just seeing more use and they are making waves because of it..
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  • shimmerlessshimmerless Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Something else worth asking is why you'd bother taking a tric torp when you can get a much better effect out of a mine.
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  • bitemepwebitemepwe Member Posts: 6,760 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    And yet one more thing worth asking. Do tric mines effect the user like tric torps do?
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