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aceton assimiliator/advanced power siphons in fed/kdf matches

wast33wast33 Member Posts: 1,855 Arc User
edited October 2012 in PvP Gameplay
...ok...:
to me it's almost impossible to enjoy a match in pvp as a fed, with those two above mentioned abilities in play.

most likely not when a klingon has set an aceton assimiliator in the mid of the fed spawn, as just happened in a match.
it stayed the whole match, torps turrets did not get in action and i got an energy-weapons only build. no speak about 2, 3, or more of them in a row...

advanced power siphons speaks for themselves for anyone who ever crossed their way.

...what you get is just like a switching the off-button of your ship and a cinema view on the last seconds it gots (yeah i know, there's a respawn ;)...).

i think we're happier, the faster we get rid off both. at least pvp should be a challenge for the kdf too, or is it already one? (the times i tried it with my kdf toon doesn't really seemed so) ^^

may i'm wrong or just have no clue in ship-building. so: what do you think? (beside trolling ;))
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • snoge00fsnoge00f Member Posts: 1,812 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    I feel ya, man.

    Sadly that's the way the game has gone with toys and doffs. There's no turning back unfortunately.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • tick0tick0 Member Posts: 243 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    You're certainly not alone in finding these two incredibly annoying.

    Some changes are coming for Siphon Drones with Season 7 (according to Borticus). As for AAs, I'm unsure.
    star_trek_razzle_dazzle_by_schematization-d37701m.gif
    @f4tamy | Sad Pandas
  • wast33wast33 Member Posts: 1,855 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    tick0 wrote: »
    You're certainly not alone in finding these two incredibly annoying.

    Some changes are coming for Siphon Drones with Season 7 (according to Borticus). As for AAs, I'm unsure.

    ...hope they make them more like cheapjacks. annoying but not harming, that would be ok for me (INDEED I WANT THEM GO). thx for the input ;)
  • criminiuscriminius Member Posts: 184 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    It's a catch twenty-two. Klinks cry fvk queues are down and some can't figure out why. Now klinks have ams too. This game is not for the lactose intolerant.
  • snoge00fsnoge00f Member Posts: 1,812 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Those people who wont queue would whine about BOPs if there were no consoles.

    It's always something with some people.

    I always queued solo in FvK with my Fed chars, even when I knew there was a high likelihood of running into QEW/WOG/LORE partial premades or what not.

    I miss the old style alpha strike teams.

    Edit:

    To clarify, this was more in response to Crim's idea that Klingons empty the queues.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • devorasxdevorasx Member Posts: 693
    edited October 2012
    People should complain less and adapt more. There is already a topic regarding it and a solution prorposed
    Co-founder of The Spanish Inquisition TSI - Cause no one expects it!

    PaxOttomana: gawd mirror event is like fighting a tsi premade, they keep comin and comin!
  • ghostyandfrostyghostyandfrosty Member Posts: 864
    edited October 2012
    Just have 2 ships that have warp plasma. :P
    One ship with GW (and a doff)

    And use Torps. You should be using Torps already in FvK as they are the most reliable bop killing weapon in the entire game.

    Also frankly, if leech and aceton are bothering you. Use Power Insulator ranks.

    Oh hell and in your case equip some frigging advanced Peregrines and set them to Intercept mode. the peregrines will one shot the drones. Jeeze.
  • stevehalestevehale Member Posts: 437
    edited October 2012
    For some reason two assimilators can be deployed at a time and in a very short time, which wouldn't be so bad if mines and heavy torpedoes could be used against them. Maybe they can sell us a TBR console with a cool down similar to the assimilators.

    If I ever figure out how to load up a Voldy upgrade on my Complaint I'll be thrilled to fire off some Gravity Wells or Warp Plasma.

    At least the old Alpha Strike teams took skill and timing.
    __________________________________________
    Foundry: Yet Another Borg Mission
    It's terrible but easy, and these Borg are way cooler than the mess STO and Voyager left us.
    May not actually be "way" cooler or even "slightly" cooler.
  • ghostyandfrostyghostyandfrosty Member Posts: 864
    edited October 2012
    The OP is in an Akira. He can already deploy Plasma.

    He also thanks to said Akira has the ability to respec himself and put a torp spread with a quantum on standby into his ensign.

    He has 2 solid anti spam counters right there that will also increase his over all effectiveness in fvk pvp. Oh my bad if he respecs and gets torps, he has 3 solid fvk choices anyway. :rolleyes: hell for carrier duty he could even go without speccing into that torp, just have the ens and a torp in inventory. It'll still oneshot drones.

    Cruisers particularly ones with Lt Cmdr Eng slots, should already be carrying warp plas in their builds as that's the only solid thing (along with having double epts and double extends) that a lt cmdr eng cruiser has over the oddy, along with their superior mobility.

    Also, mvams should be carrying some kind of AOE CC ability, period in the lt cmdr sci slot. There's no excuse not to, especially in fvk as many of the sci AOEs also disable cloak.

    People are just Stupid is 90 percent of the problem.
  • stevehalestevehale Member Posts: 437
    edited October 2012
    Sure. But many of the mechanics are pure **** too.
    __________________________________________
    Foundry: Yet Another Borg Mission
    It's terrible but easy, and these Borg are way cooler than the mess STO and Voyager left us.
    May not actually be "way" cooler or even "slightly" cooler.
  • ghostyandfrostyghostyandfrosty Member Posts: 864
    edited October 2012
    True. but honestly while the drones are ludicrous they aren't nearly as bad as they are presently because of just how stupid people are over all. "hurrrrrr AOE whats that? I don't need no AOE I R HERO!"

    They deserve to get an TRIBBLE beating so hard that even Anne would feel happy by comparison.
  • edited October 2012
    This content has been removed.
  • bitemepwebitemepwe Member Posts: 6,760 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Siphon drones suck but are they not due for a change soon?

    As well it sucks to be locked down all time by subsysttarget teams and Danubes with escort running gun and being healed by cruisers. Not to mention the odd science vessel.

    Maybe the siphon drone changes will soothe some players without borking them up.
    Leonard Nimoy, Spock.....:(

    R.I.P
  • falloutx23falloutx23 Member Posts: 456
    edited October 2012
    bitemepwe wrote: »
    Siphon drones suck but are they not due for a change soon?

    As well it sucks to be locked down all time by subsysttarget teams and Danubes with escort running gun and being healed by cruisers. Not to mention the odd science vessel.

    Maybe the siphon drone changes will soothe some players without borking them up.

    I agree with the system lockdown builds roach. Anyone that says science is dead is badly mistaken. I've decided not to run my sci if there's already two on a critz team already because it just can't be any fun to play against. There's just nothing that can be done against the amount of different ways we can bring the hurt with that much sci. We screwed around with it one night and faced afterburners usual tanky as hell build. He just melted faster than I've ever seen him and he couldn't run, couldn't defend, couldn't fight back, nothing...

    Decided to dust off my engy that night and start running him a lil more when our good sci players are already causing havoc.
  • cliftona91cliftona91 Member Posts: 254
    edited October 2012
    Last night I fought against the evil Klinguns (and lost, of course...) spamming aceton, siphons and even AMS...ahhh, come on!:mad:
    But...Anne?:confused:

    Well Starwrath, at the very least this "Evil Klingun" won't use such cheap tricks to get his kills.
  • ghostyandfrostyghostyandfrosty Member Posts: 864
    edited October 2012
    Last night I fought against the evil Klinguns (and lost, of course...) spamming aceton, siphons and even AMS...ahhh, come on!:mad:
    But...Anne?:confused:

    Yes. Anne. People that don't think about bringing AOEs to pvp, let alone FvK deserve to be beat so hard Anne has room to feel sorry for them.

    I have Visual Confirmation that a pug made can stomp a mud hole in carrier siphon, assim, leech, Target Sub, lolaron, tric mine and Tyken spam and walk it dry. With only one SNB on our team.

    I'm saving the edited vid now and as soon as it finishes I'm uploading it.

    Had we more AOE, than what I and one other person (m3w with TBR IIRC) carried we would have had a 15 and 0 shut out. As it was me simply adding 2 AOEs (Faw 3 and Faw2) we went from 5 to 15 the first round to finishing 15 to 8 in the second round.
  • wast33wast33 Member Posts: 1,855 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    thx for all the input and discussion. i've to add, that i hardly use my armitage against klinks. it does not got the counters and survivability i need against them (yes, torp console with what... a 3 min cooldown? not very effective versus pet-spam ^^). even scatter volley fails mostly against advanced pets.

    also i WANT a full energy weapon build on my escorts (full dps output, backupped with consoles), on all other types i run the 180 degree torp (which doesn't save me from siphons; fire at will also doesn't, but should?!^^).
    devorasx wrote: »
    People should complain less and adapt more. There is already a topic regarding it and a solution prorposed

    i was glad to read about the counters given, but i'm not sure if forcing players to respec in those abilities to enjoy pvp is right. in fact it says: adapt or die. this way or none (from what i saw, those abilities and plasmonic leach are used a lot).
    just encountered a klink who was kind of laughing and enjoying the fact, that he hardly meets any opponent who was able to fight him, and that his plasmonic console stacks up to 15 times ^^...

    -->
    my experience is just: witthout those 2 abilities and the plasmonic demon, fighting against klinks is almost on an "equal" base (means any side could win with all the other gimmicks in play; there are more than enough counters for, f.e. runabouts).
    with them in play feds don't ever get a real chance.
    <--

    just a thought to add: for most abilites there are boff-counters (are there?). tractors, hull polarize. plasma, eng-team, and so on... are there boff abilities i didn't spot against power drains? may this would be a solution, without the necessity for players to respec, or gear up with certain consoles.
  • falloutx23falloutx23 Member Posts: 456
    edited October 2012
    PVP by nature is "adapt or die"
  • ghostyandfrostyghostyandfrosty Member Posts: 864
    edited October 2012
    wast33 wrote: »
    thx for all the input and discussion. i've to add, that i hardly use my armitage against klinks. it does not got the counters and survivability i need against them (yes, torp console with what... a 3 min cooldown? not very effective versus pet-spam ^^). even scatter volley fails mostly against advanced pets.

    also i WANT a full energy weapon build on my escorts (full dps output, backupped with consoles), on all other types i run the 180 degree torp (which doesn't save me from siphons; fire at will also doesn't, but should?!^^).



    i was glad to read about the counters given, but i'm not sure if forcing players to respec in those abilities to enjoy pvp is right. in fact it says: adapt or die. this way or none (from what i saw, those abilities and plasmonic leach are used a lot).
    just encountered a klink who was kind of laughing and enjoying the fact, that he hardly meets any opponent who was able to fight him, and that his plasmonic console stacks up to 15 times ^^...

    -->
    my experience is just: witthout those 2 abilities and the plasmonic demon, fighting against klinks is almost on an "equal" base (means any side could win with all the other gimmicks in play; there are more than enough counters for, f.e. runabouts).
    with them in play feds don't ever get a real chance.
    <--

    just a thought to add: for most abilites there are boff-counters (are there?). tractors, hull polarize. plasma, eng-team, and so on... are there boff abilities i didn't spot against power drains? may this would be a solution, without the necessity for players to respec.

    I know for a fact that FAW does counter siphons. If you are smart about warp plasma deployment they can't even get close to you so you can just gun them all the hell down. Also Torp Spread. as in the Ensign. Plas, + Peregrines + Torp Spread every 15 seconds = pretty well suppressed pets.

    Power Drains counter straight up energy based setups that aren't carrying CC or Interceptors. People need to realize this and that yes indeed torps do have a place in pvp.

    To say nothing of AOEs like warp plasma. If I can do it. Anyone can.

    You should already have torps in your inventory if you are going to be serious about FvK, this is nothing new. And people take their FvF setups in. and get steamrolled, and for good reason. KDF don't fight the same.

    After todays little match against a pretty well skilled carrier team, loaded with all the choiciest drains. Drones aren't nearly as OP as people think they are. Sure they need a tweak. But it's not so overboard as an auto win. It's called Take Friggin AOEs to FVK (hell you should take AOE to all pvp anyway!)
  • wast33wast33 Member Posts: 1,855 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    falloutx23 wrote: »
    PVP by nature is "adapt or die"

    hopefully you didn't overread "this way or none" ;)... there should be several ways to adapt i guess.
  • ghostyandfrostyghostyandfrosty Member Posts: 864
    edited October 2012
    wast33 wrote: »
    hopefully you didn't overread "this way or none" ;)... there should be several ways to adapt i guess.

    There are.

    I can list some for you right off the top of my head that would have worked every bit as well as what I did earlier if not better.

    1 Grav Well with Doff. Grav well makes a farce out of siphons. Especially 2 ships with it. if you are in an mvam, you should -strongly- consider taking GW1, Tykens 2, TBR2 (or TBR1). Also if you are in an mvam... again you have a spare ensign... there's Torp Spread 1 again.

    If you are in a sci ship, taking a Tykens, Grav Well, and PSW should definitely enter your mind. You should also probably load up on at least one Torpedo Spread.

    If you are in a Cruiser that has even just the Cmdr Eng. You should probably consider taking at least Eject Plasma1 and FAW2. If you're in a cruiser that has a spare ensign, go ahead and take up FAW1 as well. Or hell, if you're in an AC load up with Torp Spread 2 and 1 and keep the TT handy.

    Excelsior/Galor? FAW2, FAW3, and Plasma3 are your friends. (what I fielded today)

    If you are in an Akira you better take warp plasma 1 and Advanced Peregrines set to intercept mode. Take CSV1 while you are at it as well, and load up a Torp Spread 1 in your spare ensign and load up a quantum, even if you aren't specced in torps, a TS1 tac buffed quantum will gutter shot a whole bunch of Siphon Drones in one go. And or maim /destroy Aceton Assims.

    If you are in a Defiant. You damn well better take a CSV2. To use when you need to clear spam off the field between everyone elses cyling. Same applies if you are in a jemmy. And look another spare ensign ship. torp spread 1.

    If you are in a Carrier, load at least 1 hangar with Peregrines, have a shockwave handy, and a Grav Well 3 or TBR 3.

    Or you can field Quantum Mines, with Dispersal Pattern betas. Tric Mines, Plasma mines (my personal favorite as with spec it's a guaranteed affair)

    If everyone did this, or even just the people that read this forum, siphons and carriers in general would decline in use all over again. Just like they did post introduction when the original Premades were rolling the ques around.

    I'm starting to find myself agreeing with someone that left sto along time ago who was never any good to start with as a pvper, but I think just this one time he was right. FvF has killed the talent level of the average pvper.
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    falloutx23 wrote: »
    PVP by nature is "adapt or die"

    Spare weapons, spare consoles, spare BOFFs, spare DOFFs...different alcohol choices.
  • wast33wast33 Member Posts: 1,855 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    There are.

    I can list some for you right off the top of my head that would have worked every bit as well as what I did earlier if not better.

    1 Grav Well with Doff. Grav well makes a farce out of siphons. Especially 2 ships with it. if you are in an mvam, you should -strongly- consider taking GW1, Tykens 2, TBR2 (or TBR1). Also if you are in an mvam... again you have a spare ensign... there's Torp Spread 1 again.

    If you are in a sci ship, taking a Tykens, Grav Well, and PSW should definitely enter your mind. You should also probably load up on at least one Torpedo Spread.

    If you are in a Cruiser that has even just the Cmdr Eng. You should probably consider taking at least Eject Plasma1 and FAW2. If you're in a cruiser that has a spare ensign, go ahead and take up FAW1 as well. Or hell, if you're in an AC load up with Torp Spread 2 and 1 and keep the TT handy.

    Excelsior/Galor? FAW2, FAW3, and Plasma3 are your friends. (what I fielded today)

    If you are in an Akira you better take warp plasma 1 and Advanced Peregrines set to intercept mode. Take CSV1 while you are at it as well, and load up a Torp Spread 1 in your spare ensign and load up a quantum, even if you aren't specced in torps, a TS1 tac buffed quantum will gutter shot a whole bunch of Siphon Drones in one go. And or maim /destroy Aceton Assims.

    If you are in a Defiant. You damn well better take a CSV2. To use when you need to clear spam off the field between everyone elses cyling. Same applies if you are in a jemmy. And look another spare ensign ship. torp spread 1.

    If you are in a Carrier, load at least 1 hangar with Peregrines, have a shockwave handy, and a Grav Well 3 or TBR 3.

    Or you can field Quantum Mines, with Dispersal Pattern betas. Tric Mines, Plasma mines (my personal favorite as with spec it's a guaranteed affair)

    If everyone did this, or even just the people that read this forum, siphons and carriers in general would decline in use all over again. Just like they did post introduction when the original Premades were rolling the ques around.

    I'm starting to find myself agreeing with someone that left sto along time ago who was never any good to start with as a pvper, but I think just this one time he was right. FvF has killed the talent level of the average pvper.

    thanks for your replies! i hope this will help many, though for me the only really new was that solution mentioned with consoles and respec.
    i don't like it, nor i ever got the feeling, torps are needed against klnks or in a build anyway (just if you like to have them in ;)).

    p.s.: i don't know/care if i'm untalented, stupid, or whatever (in your eyes). i do got aoe's on most of my ship-builds. just had a game in my defiant, scatter volley included, where i used that ability, buffed and in connection with my ap dhc's (most bop's just plop when i hit them, buffed and with that build). i hardly killed the most of the advanced power siphons, but no way to get them all (you know, mostly other klinks are also around).
    but may i also always build my ships wrong. for me the op is just obvious on those abilites ^^.

    i don't want to struggle, so i please you to go on with your informative posting style, by letting out the personal sounding. maybe people are too stupid for pvp, maybe i am, but that's not the topic of this thread ;)...
  • ghostyandfrostyghostyandfrosty Member Posts: 864
    edited October 2012
    wast33 wrote: »
    thanks for your replies! i hope this will help many, though for me the only really new was that solution mentioned with consoles and respec.
    i don't like it, nor i ever got the feeling, torps are needed against klnks or in a build anyway (just if you like to have them in ;)).
    i guess you're only replying on siphons with your post? so the question now should be: are there boff-counters for drains (personal ones were mentioned/linked somewhere above)?

    p.s.: i don't know if i'm just untalented, or always build my ships wrong, but for me, the op is obvious on those abilites.

    Surely you have particle generators ranked. It's such an easy skill to get points for. especially with 0 torp spec. 2 boff skill changes, and peregrines would make a world of difference there. (You don't even need the Torpedo point defense console...which also helps Tremendously every couple mins) even just having Plasma will help you.

    Siphons are what put teams well past the edge of recovery. Otherwise, you can still manage to maintain high enough power levels to get the job done.

    Also, you need to rank Power Insulators. Seriously, aceton, and leech especially can't even phase you if you have 6 in PI.

    There are all sorts of soft counters like EPTX, batteries, EPS power transfer, the warp core engineer (power bonus doff). Evasive out of the Rifts before your engines go down etc.

    You want to improve so I have no issue with you by the way. It's the other clowns that would try to treat the game like it were FvF. You can't. As a defiant other than a spread and CSV (maybe a TBR1 in the sci slot too) there's not much else you can do but hope your team mates are not completely TRIBBLE. (most feds are.. even in fvf.. which is alot Easier to master)
  • wast33wast33 Member Posts: 1,855 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Surely you have particle generators ranked. It's such an easy skill to get points for. especially with 0 torp spec. 2 boff skill changes, and peregrines would make a world of difference there. (You don't even need the Torpedo point defense console...which also helps Tremendously every couple mins) even just having Plasma will help you.

    Siphons are what put teams well past the edge of recovery. Otherwise, you can still manage to maintain high enough power levels to get the job done.

    Also, you need to rank Power Insulators. Seriously, aceton, and leech especially can't even phase you if you have 6 in PI.

    There are all sorts of soft counters like EPTX, batteries, EPS power transfer, the warp core engineer (power bonus doff). Evasive out of the Rifts before your engines go down etc.

    thanks a lot for all the hints :). for me all possible answers seem to be given, i hope anyone now can take something out off this thread.
    i guess i won't try the respec, my toon is specced as tac (power levels, damage, engine, shields and so), but i also may will give it a try :). sci-slots on my defiant are reserved for polarize hull and shield... dunno the name by now :D.
    i do also totally agree: fvk is not fvf, and as a fed i always liked the challenge kdf offered to me, but... you know (thread-title) ;).
  • stevehalestevehale Member Posts: 437
    edited October 2012
    EPS Transfer isn't simply drained within seconds of popping it? Maybe it's a combination of all other stuff being stacked but EPtX, EPS Tranfer, and stuff like that just adds a couple of seconds before the power is gone again. They need to cap how much can be drained and work on some stacking resistance or diminishing returns.

    Leech also increases the gap between your power levels and the power level of your attackers. So even if your drain isn't as insane as it was, the person Leeching has significantly more power before using any of the other drains available.
    __________________________________________
    Foundry: Yet Another Borg Mission
    It's terrible but easy, and these Borg are way cooler than the mess STO and Voyager left us.
    May not actually be "way" cooler or even "slightly" cooler.
  • ghostyandfrostyghostyandfrosty Member Posts: 864
    edited October 2012
    wast33 wrote: »
    thanks a lot for all the hints :). for me all possible answers seems to be given, i hope anyone now can take something out off this thread.
    i guess i won't try the respec, my toon is specced as tac (power levels, damage, engine, shields and so), but i also may will give it a try :).

    Hey if you need anything at all spec wise, or pointers feel free to mail me either on this forum or in game.

    in game you can add me as a friend or send me mails my handle there is @Mavairo . :)
  • ghostyandfrostyghostyandfrosty Member Posts: 864
    edited October 2012
    stevehale wrote: »
    EPS Transfer isn't simply drained within seconds of popping it? Maybe it's a combination of all other stuff being stacked but EPtX, EPS Tranfer, and stuff like that just adds a couple of seconds before the power is gone again. They need to cap how much can be drained and work on some stacking resistance or diminishing returns.

    Leech also increases the gap between your power levels and the power level of your attackers. So even if your drain isn't as insane as it was, the person Leeching has significantly more power before using any of the other drains available.

    Leech only drains 5 power hale if you have PI ranked. the enemy gets a +16 bonus true.

    But you have a +10 from Maco (or should. Why aren't you fielding Maco shield? Seriously! :P ) so there's only a +10 gap. Assim drains another like 5 tops. Assims best perk actually comes when something shoots it, it give syou effectively 2 free turrets in dps if people keeps shooting them against all targets within 5km of the assim. A warpcore engineer easily can cover that gap. (and the kdf has other things he should be putting in his doff slots anyway)

    Again, the "Problem" is Siphon Drones. and even that really is not nearly as much of an issue as you think it might be in 5v5. Earlier today I and pretty much one other person shut down an entire Carrier Drain Team. with 2 ships. The score was 8 to 1 (which is where I began filming) at one point and ended 15 to 8. If the feds aren't ******* they won't lose. Or shouldn't lose.

    I'm sure you'll want visual confirmation of what I'm saying and You'll have it. The video is 30 percent uploaded already.

    Even moderate AOE use and decent coordination will suppress the spam pretty quickly. and none of us had plasma, tric, or quantum mines which make the job even easier.

    God forbid had we come into that arena with a Balance Team of 2 tac 2 sci and an eng. Because had the scis been loaded down in AOE that match would have been laughably easy.
  • wast33wast33 Member Posts: 1,855 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    ... damn it... all this made me hungry now :D. i'll just go, see if i still can let some bop's plop :).
    Hey if you need anything at all spec wise, or pointers feel free to mail me either on this forum or in game.

    in game you can add me as a friend or send me mails my handle there is @Mavairo .

    thanks for! i will contact you when/if i can't stand the truth any longer ;). may one time we can do a match together, so you'll see if i'm a proper pvp'er already or not. referring to publics, just look out for any waste ;).
  • stevehalestevehale Member Posts: 437
    edited October 2012
    I'm not concerned with video proof. I know you aren't lying and I don't think you are necessarily wrong. I do think you are over stating the simplicity of dealing with some of this stuff though. Things don't always work out as smoothly in practice as on paper and we both know the vast skill gap between typical players.

    Couple that with the fact that siphon related TRIBBLE makes people lazy. It's used so heavily, and effortlessly, that people forget how to play. I sincerely doubt a decent Carrier built to exploit these ignorant mechanics is going to be so easily swatted aside.
    __________________________________________
    Foundry: Yet Another Borg Mission
    It's terrible but easy, and these Borg are way cooler than the mess STO and Voyager left us.
    May not actually be "way" cooler or even "slightly" cooler.
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