How about allowing really big war ships like the Bortasqu to be able to shoot dual cannons and/or heavy dual cannons in a 180 deg arc? They are already so slow turning, that installing DHCs is a questionable choice. (I still do it, but i would never go into PvP with it).
However the size of the ship for me clearly justifies the ability to use those big high yield weapons as turret like emplacements or so. I would not go that far to give them 360 deg arcs, but I feel 180 would be justified.
Mind also I am not talking about torps or things like the disruptor autocannon, as I feel those things are justified with the firing arc they already posses.
This would make the Bortasqu (and possible similar warships) kind of a slow turning broadsider, but not quite so as the most damage potential would remain in a 90 deg arc.
Could always go to regular cannons... honestly does *anyone* use the regular cannon at all?
Wampaq@Jnoh, Fleet Leader: ..Bloodbath and Beyond[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]'Iw HaH je Hoch! ALL HOLDINGS FINISHED! - Starbase 5-5-5-5 || Embassy 3-3-3 || Mine 3-3-3 || Spire 3-3-3 A laid back KDF fleet welcoming independent, casual, & part-time players and groups. Roms & alts welcome. Send in-game mail to Wampaq@Jnoh, visit our recruitment thread and FB page for more info.
single cannons? I certainly don't use them, they are just too puny. IMO the point of a dreadnought cruiser with poor manoeuvrability is to use heavy weaponry, but a firing arc of 45 deg is just too small. It could work if the weapons range was increased to 20 km maybe.
Single cannons need to be revisited, imho. Maybe some kind of high inefficency, massive DPS per shot, slow/low refire, and innate CrtH + CrtD? Then mark them for Cruiser/battlecruiser only?
Something to bring them into closer balance with the DHCs.
EDIT: just mulled over some data on them, and frankly they went the wrong direction with them. They fire too frequently and too low per volley, and need to become the opposite end of the spectrum. Even leaving their DPS alone @ 212 for a white Mk XII, make their Volley a single shot of 212damage, once per second. Add the same innate CritD as Dual Heavy but also add an innate CritH to them (in addition to any quality mods). Make them cruiser/battle cruiser only, and you should see a use for them. BIG hits, slow hits, but bigger arcs.
Wampaq@Jnoh, Fleet Leader: ..Bloodbath and Beyond[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]'Iw HaH je Hoch! ALL HOLDINGS FINISHED! - Starbase 5-5-5-5 || Embassy 3-3-3 || Mine 3-3-3 || Spire 3-3-3 A laid back KDF fleet welcoming independent, casual, & part-time players and groups. Roms & alts welcome. Send in-game mail to Wampaq@Jnoh, visit our recruitment thread and FB page for more info.
I know Cyptic is toying around with the idea of a "broadside" ship for each faction, whereas the front and rear slots would become port and starboard slots for firing arcs. The idea would be most beneficial for a ship that could mount cannons in addition to torpedo launchers.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I don't care how long you've been playing. I only care about how you play.
And remember to follow the rules.
No, I don't think they went in the right direction with Cannons. I feel like they would be better served as a slow firing, high crit weapon. Even dropping the base DPS a little if need be. I'm thinking primarily of the broadsider coming up, and how it seems silly the whole game's dual cannons and dual heavies are king.
See my edit above.
Wampaq@Jnoh, Fleet Leader: ..Bloodbath and Beyond[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]'Iw HaH je Hoch! ALL HOLDINGS FINISHED! - Starbase 5-5-5-5 || Embassy 3-3-3 || Mine 3-3-3 || Spire 3-3-3 A laid back KDF fleet welcoming independent, casual, & part-time players and groups. Roms & alts welcome. Send in-game mail to Wampaq@Jnoh, visit our recruitment thread and FB page for more info.
Giving big ships a 180 degree arc for DHCs would make them overpowered.
The word balance often comes to play in these discussions, reasons to give players an incentive to fly different classes of ships. Tradeoffs are made so that ships of different classes at the same tier are on a roughly equal standing allowing players with different playing styles to be competitive. For Big ships, their statistical advantage in crew/shields/armor has to be compensated for by decreased maneuverability and preventing them from mounting the most powerful weapons. While smaller ships have the advantage in DPS and maneuvering but pay for it in reduced crew/shield/armor. To allow a Big ship a 180 degree arc for DHCs would have to be compensated by some loss of the Ship's other advantages, failure to do that would eventually result in entire classes of ships abandoned in favor of this one design.
If something is not broken, don't fix it, if it is broken, don't leave it broken.
Oh, and the mirror Neg'var looks like its firing beams to me...
Wampaq@Jnoh, Fleet Leader: ..Bloodbath and Beyond[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]'Iw HaH je Hoch! ALL HOLDINGS FINISHED! - Starbase 5-5-5-5 || Embassy 3-3-3 || Mine 3-3-3 || Spire 3-3-3 A laid back KDF fleet welcoming independent, casual, & part-time players and groups. Roms & alts welcome. Send in-game mail to Wampaq@Jnoh, visit our recruitment thread and FB page for more info.
Yeah balance wise it wold be bad for them to get bigge arcs.
@Jnod: And if you did that why would i ever mount them? Look not everyon plays PvP, a wepaon thats only good for short sharp bursts is usless in PVE, sustained is what m,atter there.
the issue with single cannons is that only non-escorts would consider mounting them, but sci get better DPS out of DBB's and cruisers need more than 180 arc to get them all shooting.
I know Cyptic is toying around with the idea of a "broadside" ship for each faction, whereas the front and rear slots would become port and starboard slots for firing arcs. The idea would be most beneficial for a ship that could mount cannons in addition to torpedo launchers.
Now that would be brilliant. I would buy it the moment they release it. And no, it wouldn't make good cannon ships. But it would make great beam ships. A cruiser with one forward and backward facing weapon and 3 left/right firing weapons would be perfect.
I wouldn't mind this, more so for all ships, not just Fed or KDF, give all cruisers a bit more teeth. Just so long as their DPS isn't equal with DCs and DHCs as we have them now.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
@Jnod: And if you did that why would i ever mount them? Look not everyon plays PvP, a wepaon thats only good for short sharp bursts is usless in PVE, sustained is what m,atter there.
At least then they would be useful to someone! :eek:
Wampaq@Jnoh, Fleet Leader: ..Bloodbath and Beyond[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]'Iw HaH je Hoch! ALL HOLDINGS FINISHED! - Starbase 5-5-5-5 || Embassy 3-3-3 || Mine 3-3-3 || Spire 3-3-3 A laid back KDF fleet welcoming independent, casual, & part-time players and groups. Roms & alts welcome. Send in-game mail to Wampaq@Jnoh, visit our recruitment thread and FB page for more info.
On a broadside built boat (1 fore 6 sides 1 aft mounts) how are beams going to be any better than they are now with a 270 firing arc?
Cannons would rock on such a beast but they would only be able to fire 3 weapons to a single side plus 2 beam arrays with thier overlapping firing arc. You lose 3 weapons on the broadside.
I think Single cannons need a wider firing arc of 200-220.
Dual cannons need a wider firing arc of 90.
and DHCs are fine the way they are.
I see it from a pve perspective. It is way easier to control range to a target if you just need to go back and forth.
Now, if you have beams to both sides of the ship then their overlapping firing arc is in the frontal and the rearward hemisphere of your ship.
6 beams plus one torpedo provide a good fire concentration. In PvE it is quite easy to keep a target in front of you. Therefore, 6 beams + 1 torp= win imo.
The only way for overlapping between all your beams and a torpedo atm is to get the 180 deg. quantum torp.
Just 4 cannons shooting to each side on the other hand doesn't appeal to me.
I think Single cannons need a wider firing arc of 200-220.
Dual cannons need a wider firing arc of 90.
and DHCs are fine the way they are.
I agree, there needs to be a reason to mount dual cannons since they're not as good at getting their payload off as quickly as dual heavies. I'd also love to be able to mount them to a faster moving cruiser like an Excelsior. Heck I'd still be happy if they reduced the DPS output if it meant having a 90 degree arc.
I finally bit the bullet and gave a no torp all cannon/turret build a try with my Tac/Excelsior STF probe buster yesterday and I'm sold on the concept. I hate the way it looks, but it's effective. I just wish the single cannons shot from different mounts on the saucer section rather than all of them from one point, it looks stupid.
Thats what single cannons are for, they are pretty strong but not as strong as DHC, but they get 180 degree firing arc. I use DHC on my Tac Bortasqu in PVE and single cannons in PVP. Decloaking alpha from tac bortasqu even with single cannons still is enough to kill many people outright considering its buffed by 5 tac consoles and you have 1 more turret then escorts to help make up for the weaker single cannons. Any target strong enough to survive the cannons can be eliminated with disruptor autocannon. Bortasqu with 180 degree DHC would be completley OP, never any reason to use other ships if they did that.
No we don't need 180 degree DHC, the single cannons serve that purpose, give them a try, even very rares aren't to expensive.
I find single cannons to be highly underrated, they are great for cruisers, even can be fun on escorts sometimes to make it easy to keep other escorts in firing arc in dog fights, this lowers burts dps against targets but gives much higher sustained dps since you are almost always hitting them allowing you to wear target down. I actually have easier time keeping cannons on target with cruisers then using broadside, since the 180 degree arc is bigger then the broadside arc where the front and rear beams firing arc intersect.
I don't think a slowly turning ship like the Bortasqu would be overpowered in PVP when having a 180 arc with DHC even. At this manoeuvrability you'd still be a sitting duck with a 180 deg rear blind spot.
As I said, single cannon are just too puny for a ship of that size. It's like you'd equip the Missouri from WW2 with just machine guns.
It takes practice but I have little trouble hitting stuff with Bortasqu in pvp with cannons.
Use evasive manuver doff, attack pattern omega, engine power should be somewhere around 70/50, Impulse thrusters and engine performance skills maxed, and use reverse while turning too. Use a tractor beam too if that still isn't enough.
Single cannons are not puny, their dps isn't that much lower then DHC. Especially when buffed by the only 5 tac console ship the KDF gets. 4 single cannons with 4 turrets and 5 tac consoles is about the same as 4DHC and 3 turrets buffed by only 4 tac consoles, and when using DHC in PVE the advantage goes completley to Bortasqu.
@marc8219, thanks for the advice, I already use the ship like you describe, except I use 3 DHC+ 1 quantum in the front and I didn't skill specifically for max manoeuvrability. But I manage quite well. I just don't envision such a big ship to be in a dogfight with a tiny escort like a defiant.
I would however generally like to see weapon hardpoints like in Starfleet Commad. All ships there had a unique layout and arcs. In STO all ships are extremely generic and only differ in boff power slots. Generic might be easier to balance but is also boring.
I would however generally like to see weapon hardpoints like in Starfleet Commad. All ships there had a unique layout and arcs. In STO all ships are extremely generic and only differ in boff power slots. Generic might be easier to balance but is also boring.
I've never played that game, but agree with the sentiment. Ship fitting could be so much more dynamic and interesting than just simply putting the highest level weapons you can.
Lynis, Orion Engineer, main Rrezeth, Gorn Tactical, primary alt Nari, Orion Science, secondary alt
for those who don't know how statfleet command worked, here is a screenshot of the weapons layout as an example:
The arc of a weapon was defined by the ship rather than the weapon itself. This also made for example dual beams or cannons unnecessary as you mounted 2 beam emitters or cannons in the two slots. The loadout was devided into primary weapons and heavy weapons and their slots were not generic.
for those who don't know how statfleet command worked, here is a screenshot of the weapons layout as an example:
The arc of a weapon was defined by the ship rather than the weapon itself. This also made for example dual beams or cannons unnecessary as you mounted 2 beam emitters or cannons in the two slots. The loadout was devided into primary weapons and heavy weapons and their slots were not generic.
There were also weight limits for every ship, and every 'section' of the ship (only so much for weapons, shields, systems, and engines), so it would be quite difficult to load a small escort-level ship with TRIBBLE-kicking firepower. My favorite loadout in SFC3, personally, was to put a pair of Pulse Phasers and 1-2 quantum torpedoes onto a Defiant. Forward-firing, but makes for a highly maneuverable ship with a nasty sting.
I never liked Romulan ships, largely because I never got the hang of using the cloak in that game. Romulan ships always seemed weaker than Klingon or Federation ships of the same weight class (probably because Romulan disruptors were weaker?), and the cloak + torpedoes never seemed to make up for it.
EDIT: Oh, and the Romulan D'deridex Warbird maneuvered like a fat cow.
My PvP toon is Krov, of The House of Snoo. Beware of my Hegh'ta of doom.
for those who don't know how statfleet command worked, here is a screenshot of the weapons layout as an example:
The arc of a weapon was defined by the ship rather than the weapon itself. This also made for example dual beams or cannons unnecessary as you mounted 2 beam emitters or cannons in the two slots. The loadout was devided into primary weapons and heavy weapons and their slots were not generic.
Yes but SFC rules wouldn't function here, it was basically the heavier the ship the better. Odyssey and Bortasqu' would be the best of their respective factions where escorts would be by far the weaker or weakest of ships.
The size trumps all system in SFC would make science and escorts completely obsolete at endgame level. When bigger is better of course they don't have to worry about what type of weapons a ship can equip because quite simply...the biggest is built to be the best.
SFC 3, good times. They even had a good looking K'Vort model.
The trade in SFC was between firepower and agility. I was more than happy with my Vor'cha while my friends went streight to Souvereign and Negh'var.
Not working here in STO, but the idividual weapon arcs were really nice. As already said, I would love ships that offer a bit diversity in that regard.
Weapon sizes like in eve for example would be a wonderful thing, too. Feels kinda strange to mount the same weapons on a Bortas and a shuttle.
The idea of heavy beams for cruisers is imo a step in the right direction.
SFC 3, good times. They even had a good looking K'Vort model.
The trade in SFC was between firepower and agility. I was more than happy with my Vor'cha while my friends went streight to Souvereign and Negh'var.
Not working here in STO, but the idividual weapon arcs were really nice. As already said, I would love ships that offer a bit diversity in that regard.
Weapon sizes like in eve for example would be a wonderful thing, too. Feels kinda strange to mount the same weapons on a Bortas and a shuttle.
The idea of heavy beams for cruisers is imo a step in the right direction.
I always preferred sfc 1/2/op...they took a lot of the skill and fun out with sfc 3.
Im sorry but with all the virtually indestructible Defiants and Bug Ships out there how can any of you argue against buffing non-escort ships?
180 degree DHCs might give us more of a chance against these damn tank-scorts, maybe even let 1 or 2 Fed cruisers mount them as well
Looking for a great fleet, then try the UFP/House of Kular, visit ufplanets.comfor more infoA forum post should be like a woman's skirt, long enough to cover the subject matter but short enough to keep things interesting.
hmm... Dual Heavy Turrets.... more power than a regular turret with lower attack radius and they fire like dual cannons rather than single cannons. if for no other reason than a difference in look.
could even restrict them to larger ships. ie No BoP's or Escorts can use them.
Comments
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Something to bring them into closer balance with the DHCs.
EDIT: just mulled over some data on them, and frankly they went the wrong direction with them. They fire too frequently and too low per volley, and need to become the opposite end of the spectrum. Even leaving their DPS alone @ 212 for a white Mk XII, make their Volley a single shot of 212damage, once per second. Add the same innate CritD as Dual Heavy but also add an innate CritH to them (in addition to any quality mods). Make them cruiser/battle cruiser only, and you should see a use for them. BIG hits, slow hits, but bigger arcs.
ALL HOLDINGS FINISHED! - Starbase 5-5-5-5 || Embassy 3-3-3 || Mine 3-3-3 || Spire 3-3-3
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Personally I would love to be able to fire heavy cannons every which way kinda like this, but unfortunately game balance dictates otherwise
Rrezeth, Gorn Tactical, primary alt
Nari, Orion Science, secondary alt
I don't care how long you've been playing. I only care about how you play.
And remember to follow the rules.
See my edit above.
ALL HOLDINGS FINISHED! - Starbase 5-5-5-5 || Embassy 3-3-3 || Mine 3-3-3 || Spire 3-3-3
A laid back KDF fleet welcoming independent, casual, & part-time players and groups. Roms & alts welcome.
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The word balance often comes to play in these discussions, reasons to give players an incentive to fly different classes of ships. Tradeoffs are made so that ships of different classes at the same tier are on a roughly equal standing allowing players with different playing styles to be competitive. For Big ships, their statistical advantage in crew/shields/armor has to be compensated for by decreased maneuverability and preventing them from mounting the most powerful weapons. While smaller ships have the advantage in DPS and maneuvering but pay for it in reduced crew/shield/armor. To allow a Big ship a 180 degree arc for DHCs would have to be compensated by some loss of the Ship's other advantages, failure to do that would eventually result in entire classes of ships abandoned in favor of this one design.
ALL HOLDINGS FINISHED! - Starbase 5-5-5-5 || Embassy 3-3-3 || Mine 3-3-3 || Spire 3-3-3
A laid back KDF fleet welcoming independent, casual, & part-time players and groups. Roms & alts welcome.
Send in-game mail to Wampaq@Jnoh, visit our recruitment thread and FB page for more info.
Rrezeth, Gorn Tactical, primary alt
Nari, Orion Science, secondary alt
@Jnod: And if you did that why would i ever mount them? Look not everyon plays PvP, a wepaon thats only good for short sharp bursts is usless in PVE, sustained is what m,atter there.
the issue with single cannons is that only non-escorts would consider mounting them, but sci get better DPS out of DBB's and cruisers need more than 180 arc to get them all shooting.
Now that would be brilliant. I would buy it the moment they release it. And no, it wouldn't make good cannon ships. But it would make great beam ships. A cruiser with one forward and backward facing weapon and 3 left/right firing weapons would be perfect.
At least then they would be useful to someone! :eek:
ALL HOLDINGS FINISHED! - Starbase 5-5-5-5 || Embassy 3-3-3 || Mine 3-3-3 || Spire 3-3-3
A laid back KDF fleet welcoming independent, casual, & part-time players and groups. Roms & alts welcome.
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Cannons would rock on such a beast but they would only be able to fire 3 weapons to a single side plus 2 beam arrays with thier overlapping firing arc. You lose 3 weapons on the broadside.
I think Single cannons need a wider firing arc of 200-220.
Dual cannons need a wider firing arc of 90.
and DHCs are fine the way they are.
R.I.P
Now, if you have beams to both sides of the ship then their overlapping firing arc is in the frontal and the rearward hemisphere of your ship.
6 beams plus one torpedo provide a good fire concentration. In PvE it is quite easy to keep a target in front of you. Therefore, 6 beams + 1 torp= win imo.
The only way for overlapping between all your beams and a torpedo atm is to get the 180 deg. quantum torp.
Just 4 cannons shooting to each side on the other hand doesn't appeal to me.
I agree, there needs to be a reason to mount dual cannons since they're not as good at getting their payload off as quickly as dual heavies. I'd also love to be able to mount them to a faster moving cruiser like an Excelsior. Heck I'd still be happy if they reduced the DPS output if it meant having a 90 degree arc.
I finally bit the bullet and gave a no torp all cannon/turret build a try with my Tac/Excelsior STF probe buster yesterday and I'm sold on the concept. I hate the way it looks, but it's effective. I just wish the single cannons shot from different mounts on the saucer section rather than all of them from one point, it looks stupid.
No we don't need 180 degree DHC, the single cannons serve that purpose, give them a try, even very rares aren't to expensive.
I find single cannons to be highly underrated, they are great for cruisers, even can be fun on escorts sometimes to make it easy to keep other escorts in firing arc in dog fights, this lowers burts dps against targets but gives much higher sustained dps since you are almost always hitting them allowing you to wear target down. I actually have easier time keeping cannons on target with cruisers then using broadside, since the 180 degree arc is bigger then the broadside arc where the front and rear beams firing arc intersect.
As I said, single cannon are just too puny for a ship of that size. It's like you'd equip the Missouri from WW2 with just machine guns.
Use evasive manuver doff, attack pattern omega, engine power should be somewhere around 70/50, Impulse thrusters and engine performance skills maxed, and use reverse while turning too. Use a tractor beam too if that still isn't enough.
Single cannons are not puny, their dps isn't that much lower then DHC. Especially when buffed by the only 5 tac console ship the KDF gets. 4 single cannons with 4 turrets and 5 tac consoles is about the same as 4DHC and 3 turrets buffed by only 4 tac consoles, and when using DHC in PVE the advantage goes completley to Bortasqu.
I would however generally like to see weapon hardpoints like in Starfleet Commad. All ships there had a unique layout and arcs. In STO all ships are extremely generic and only differ in boff power slots. Generic might be easier to balance but is also boring.
I've never played that game, but agree with the sentiment. Ship fitting could be so much more dynamic and interesting than just simply putting the highest level weapons you can.
Rrezeth, Gorn Tactical, primary alt
Nari, Orion Science, secondary alt
The arc of a weapon was defined by the ship rather than the weapon itself. This also made for example dual beams or cannons unnecessary as you mounted 2 beam emitters or cannons in the two slots. The loadout was devided into primary weapons and heavy weapons and their slots were not generic.
but a new weapon that was cruiser spec only maybe a fix
There were also weight limits for every ship, and every 'section' of the ship (only so much for weapons, shields, systems, and engines), so it would be quite difficult to load a small escort-level ship with TRIBBLE-kicking firepower. My favorite loadout in SFC3, personally, was to put a pair of Pulse Phasers and 1-2 quantum torpedoes onto a Defiant. Forward-firing, but makes for a highly maneuverable ship with a nasty sting.
I never liked Romulan ships, largely because I never got the hang of using the cloak in that game. Romulan ships always seemed weaker than Klingon or Federation ships of the same weight class (probably because Romulan disruptors were weaker?), and the cloak + torpedoes never seemed to make up for it.
EDIT: Oh, and the Romulan D'deridex Warbird maneuvered like a fat cow.
Yes but SFC rules wouldn't function here, it was basically the heavier the ship the better. Odyssey and Bortasqu' would be the best of their respective factions where escorts would be by far the weaker or weakest of ships.
The size trumps all system in SFC would make science and escorts completely obsolete at endgame level. When bigger is better of course they don't have to worry about what type of weapons a ship can equip because quite simply...the biggest is built to be the best.
The trade in SFC was between firepower and agility. I was more than happy with my Vor'cha while my friends went streight to Souvereign and Negh'var.
Not working here in STO, but the idividual weapon arcs were really nice. As already said, I would love ships that offer a bit diversity in that regard.
Weapon sizes like in eve for example would be a wonderful thing, too. Feels kinda strange to mount the same weapons on a Bortas and a shuttle.
The idea of heavy beams for cruisers is imo a step in the right direction.
I always preferred sfc 1/2/op...they took a lot of the skill and fun out with sfc 3.
180 degree DHCs might give us more of a chance against these damn tank-scorts, maybe even let 1 or 2 Fed cruisers mount them as well
A forum post should be like a woman's skirt, long enough to cover the subject matter but short enough to keep things interesting.
could even restrict them to larger ships. ie No BoP's or Escorts can use them.
Rrezeth, Gorn Tactical, primary alt
Nari, Orion Science, secondary alt