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How to counter a siphon/drain team?

skurfskurf Member Posts: 1,071 Arc User
edited October 2012 in PvP Gameplay
I was pugging it up the other day as I usually do and came a across a 4v4 Fed vs. KDF match. The KDF was a premade team using 2 Kar'Fi's and 2 BoP's. Both Kar'Fi were using siphon drones with gravity wells and tykens rifts. I think 1 BoP was using gravity wells also and the other tricobalts with DPB3. They were all using aceton assimilators, plasmonic leech, and polaron weapons. At any given time there were on average 6 assimilators on the field and when I would engage there would be around 4 gravity wells and a tykens rift or two. It was impossible to escape the gravity wells even with evasive maneuvers and APO activated because my engines were constantly between 0-10 power as well as my shields. My weapons were between 0-40 power, but not like I could ever turn to get them in firing arc, and if you've ever shot at someone with 40 weapons power, you know the futility of it. Every time I engaged I literally came to a complete hault and if I didn't die to just the gravity wells and energy weapons then the the tricobalts would get me.

I ended up leaving the match after 3 engagements with them, and to-date it is the only time I have ever purposefully left a match. It was just completely pointless to attempt to engage them as I would get completely shut down and blown up 10 seconds later. I had no idea how to go about engaging them, especially with pugs who were just as clueless as me, so I left :(
Post edited by skurf on
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Comments

  • lostusthornlostusthorn Member Posts: 844
    edited October 2012
    Very little you can do against a I-Win setup.
    All those power drain stuff does not belongs into the game in the first place.
  • thishorizonthishorizon Member Posts: 1,158
    edited October 2012
    yeah thats hard to do.

    stay out of 5k and spam aoe.

    yep. fun times.
  • husanakxhusanakx Member Posts: 1,674 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Easiest Fix.... warp out. No I'm not kidden.

    Warp out and make sure to tell them in zone before you go why your leaving.

    Explain to them that the handful of real klingon players in the game hate there frea*ing guts for destryoing the FvK ques...

    Seriously if I had one of the players on that team on my friends list they would be removed... they would be primary target any time I saw there @ handle anywhere anytime.

    People that insist on building teams around stuff we all know is broken and then que up in a que that already takes 30+ min to pop most nights... well I think I made my feelings clear... Best thing for them is to warp and hopefuly after staring at a que screen that doesn't pop for the rest of the night they will get the message.... IHATEHAVINGTOPLAYMYSTUPIDFEDSALLTHEDAM*TIME.

    End of rant.
  • thishorizonthishorizon Member Posts: 1,158
    edited October 2012
    also what husanak said.
  • jellico1jellico1 Member Posts: 2,719
    edited October 2012
    This and the invulnerable guys who also blow
    You away I'n 4 seconds is why I don't pvp

    As a fleet we pvp almost everyday with members
    Of our fleet, were also building up a Kdf fleet so
    We can enjoy that content as well

    The skills are so broken and unbalanced to pug
    Or even use fleet teams is really a waste of time
    Unless your exploiting some imbalance as a team
    So we don't bother

    Pvp is dead and will stay that way .......

    The only pvp content is and will be is I'n honorable
    Fleets who agree to certain rules I believe
    Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
    Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
    Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng

    JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
  • dontdrunkimshootdontdrunkimshoot Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    i ran into such a team last night, 3 carriers, 2 with drones. my team was helpless, i was not. because i had EWP1 on my vet ship, and thanks to 2 AtB i was dropping a second plasma before the first cloud even dissipated. they were complete fail without their drones, when i took that away their zombie builds were useless at damaging unsiphoned targets. 90% of their ability to do anything relied on their drones, they were the worst kind of scum in game, so i stomped a mud hole, made them eat ****, and buried them in plasma until they were defeated. felt so good, a victory for all who's energy levels have been repressed.

    http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/577844645357240778/D65314AB0CB8105AB7B743EAF91F91C49CA7E074/

    you can see by my teams numbers how shut down they were, i was administering friendly plasma clouds to them like you would administer HE lol. was a total TRIBBLE fest, we had carriers too i think, no runabouts though. surprised my processor survived.
  • falloutx23falloutx23 Member Posts: 456
    edited October 2012
    yeah these stupid teams suck. I haven't played pew'd with my klink in months due to the queue's being so dead and the fact that I don't want to be on these teams if I'm pugging. Before p2w garbage hit the scene, about 80% of my pew'ing was in my klink. Not because it was better, but because of the challenge. Out premade klink teams would lose to teams that we could easily handle with our fed toons, but klinks are just so damn fun to play. Of course, waiting 45 mins for a queue is not so much...
  • dontdrunkimshootdontdrunkimshoot Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    jellico1 wrote: »
    This and the invulnerable guys who also blow
    You away I'n 4 seconds is why I don't pvp

    As a fleet we pvp almost everyday with members
    Of our fleet, were also building up a Kdf fleet so
    We can enjoy that content as well

    The skills are so broken and unbalanced to pug
    Or even use fleet teams is really a waste of time
    Unless your exploiting some imbalance as a team
    So we don't bother

    Pvp is dead and will stay that way .......

    The only pvp content is and will be is I'n honorable
    Fleets who agree to certain rules I believe

    if you think that, you have 0 grasp of what your doing, seriously. review the help threads, ask questions, and be willing to learn. the game is about 85% perfectly balanced
  • jellico1jellico1 Member Posts: 2,719
    edited October 2012
    if you think that, you have 0 grasp of what your doing, seriously. review the help threads, ask questions, and be willing to learn. the game is about 85% perfectly balanced


    Really ?

    So what's your counter to the posters question ?

    How do you fight and win against this siphon team ?

    I see very little balance period I'n pvp this is just
    A worst case example

    I am willing to learn teach me how to fight with no
    Power
    Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
    Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
    Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng

    JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
  • skurfskurf Member Posts: 1,071 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    One thing I don't understand is why the devs gave one side 3 unique (and effective) power drain abilities (siphon drones, aceton assimilators, and plasmonic leech). When combined with universal power drain abilities like polaron weapons and tyken's rift, the amount of power drained is devastating and seems to be uncounterable if the team using them has any coordination, which the team that I faced did. To me, that seems like an obvious design flaw that should be fixed, but how long has it been this way (honest question as I'm new to PvP)?

    Would the game not be better if these 3 items were entirely removed from the game and the previous owners of them compensated in dilithium/zen? I have faced siphons before and yes they were annoying, and I have faced assimilators before and yes they were annoying, and I have faced plasmonic leech before and ok, it wasn't too bad by itself. But when these powers are combined (plus, combined even further with universal drains) and used in a coordinated effort that takes advantage of the lowered power levels it seems completely game-breaking. I have really enjoyed PvP up until that match, but I think I'm starting to understand why the queues are often empty.
  • falloutx23falloutx23 Member Posts: 456
    edited October 2012
    skurf wrote: »
    One thing I don't understand is why the devs gave one side 3 unique (and effective) power drain abilities (siphon drones, aceton assimilators, and plasmonic leech). When combined with universal power drain abilities like polaron weapons and tyken's rift, the amount of power drained is devastating and seems to be uncounterable if the team using them has any coordination, which the team that I faced did. To me, that seems like an obvious design flaw that should be fixed, but how long has it been this way (honest question as I'm new to PvP)?

    Would the game not be better if these 3 items were entirely removed from the game and the previous owners of them compensated in dilithium/zen? I have faced siphons before and yes they were annoying, and I have faced assimilators before and yes they were annoying, and I have faced plasmonic leech before and ok, it wasn't too bad by itself. But when these powers are combined (plus, combined even further with universal drains) and used in a coordinated effort that takes advantage of the lowered power levels it seems completely game-breaking. I have really enjoyed PvP up until that match, but I think I'm starting to understand why the queues are often empty.

    yes it would be better, but no, they wont do it. They've taken a stab at trying to fix it, but either they haven't put enough resources into it, or it's outside their capability to figure out. I have enough faith that it's not the latter to simply conclude it's just not that high on their priority list. This isn't saying it's not on their list at all, just not high up on it. Until it gets fixed, FvK will always suffer
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    surprised my processor survived.

    I have to turn settings down a bunch going into PvP these days. Didn't used to have the problem, but there are times where if I didn't - I swear I could hear groans from my rig and see steam coming out the side from where the tears were cooking.

    Between all the EWP/Plasma/Wells/Rifts/and drone spam... the screen tends to look like a cat ate a box of crayons and threw up on it. Somebody breaks out Temp stuff and I'll actually double cursor and get lost in desync...meh.
  • matteo716maikaimatteo716maikai Member Posts: 823
    edited October 2012
    Just wait until the Feds get these things in future lockboxes.

    You know it's gonna happen. Just wait and see.

    And the proposed siphion fix is still bad because the drones will have an unlimited amount of stacking and long term drain. Sure it'll take longer to drain but its still unlimited and can still be stacked.
  • skurfskurf Member Posts: 1,071 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    How about this: limit the maximum amount of power drained from any 1 ship to 50% of their maximum power, no matter how many power drains are stacked on them. That way you won't be a sitting duck dead in the water, but it won't invalidate these power drain abilities either.
  • starcommando101starcommando101 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    they should have major shared cooldown
    The Average PvP player
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    1) Teamwork and timing is #1
    2) You cannot "Kirk It" in every ship
    3) You are going to die, just get back up
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  • cliftona91cliftona91 Member Posts: 254
    edited October 2012
    I am a player who frequents the Klingon side often (4 KDf characters to 1 Fed character). I went into a private match with some guys and my Fleet Tor'kaht was at the receiving end of his own faction's power draining spam.

    As an honorable Klingon (saving for the decloaking alpha strikes, got to use what I have) I don't use Aceton Assimilators or Siphon Drones. I only use the Plasmonic Leech because even if I spec into it, the power drain isn't enough to make people worry, especially if they have specced into Power Insulators. I also use Polarons, but only because they're purple in color and the power drain proc doesn't happen often and clears in no time.

    But I think warp plasma or Topedo spreads can take care of drones and Assimilators.
  • travelingmastertravelingmaster Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    Welll, I can understand that one does that when he's having a bad day, but as a thought-out strategy? Nah. I mean, in a real war situation/open PvP, you'd obviously retreat and come back with lots of reinforcements if at all possible, but isn't PvP via the queues supposed to be like sports?

    Like thishorizon said, keeping some distance and using AOE attacks like EWP is what works best. The drain team will still be at an advantage, though. Energy drain is just a very good weapon.

    Has anyone ever tried to build a fed energy drain team?

    Nah, the Feddies just use their sci spam BS and subsystem targeting to disable and hold ships while bludgeoning them to death. They don't need energy draining.

    I love it when Feddies complain about KDF drain abilities, but don't seem to see a problem with pre-made sci spamming teams that also toss in a few pay-to-win abilities (graviton pulse being one). I don't do either, tbh. The only P2W I use is Impulse Capacitance Cell (which can be overcome with sci spam or subnukes). Other than that, I just rely on decloak alphastrikes, skill, and a bit of luck.
    My PvP toon is Krov, of The House of Snoo. Beware of my Hegh'ta of doom.
  • dalnar83dalnar83 Member Posts: 2,420 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Nah, the Feddies just use their sci spam BS and subsystem targeting to disable and hold ships while bludgeoning them to death. They don't need energy draining.

    I love it when Feddies complain about KDF drain abilities, but don't seem to see a problem with pre-made sci spamming teams that also toss in a few pay-to-win abilities (graviton pulse being one). I don't do either, tbh. The only P2W I use is Impulse Capacitance Cell (which can be overcome with sci spam or subnukes). Other than that, I just rely on decloak alphastrikes, skill, and a bit of luck.

    Did you just crawl out of Season 2-3 hole or something ? What is a sci spam in current state of DPS Online ?
    "Cryptic Studio’s Jack Emmert (2010): Microtransactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense. I like paying one fee and not worrying about it – like my cellphone. The world’s biggest MMO isn’t item based, even though the black market item GDP is bigger than Russia … microtransactions make me want to die.”
  • travelingmastertravelingmaster Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    dalnar83 wrote: »
    Did you just crawl out of Season 2-3 hole or something ? What is a sci spam in current state of DPS Online ?

    Sci spam is when they throw enough sci skills at you to where you run out of debuff-clearing abilities (very quickly). That's still quite applicable, especially when you don't have a dedicated and competent healer around. A good example would be to use sensor scramble, tractor beams, subsystem targeting (sci ships have this automatically, so I consider it a hybrid of sci and tac), sensor scan to massively debuff, subnucleonic beam, energy drain, and maybe throw in a few p2w moves in for flavor. Most sci spam is accompanied by a few eng abilities like warp plasma for extra holding and graphics overload.

    That's why I laugh at people whining about how sci skills are soooo underpowered. Yeah, a few could use a buff (Tachyon Beam, especially), but most of the people complaining are just people who aren't using science builds the way they're supposed to be used. . .to debuff, disable, or hold your opponents and wear through the defenses (or have teammates shred them). They're expecting to use science skills to DPS the heck out of everyone, and that's not what you're supposed to do with most sci skills.
    My PvP toon is Krov, of The House of Snoo. Beware of my Hegh'ta of doom.
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  • skurfskurf Member Posts: 1,071 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Nah, the Feddies just use their sci spam BS and subsystem targeting to disable and hold ships while bludgeoning them to death. They don't need energy draining.

    I love it when Feddies complain about KDF drain abilities, but don't seem to see a problem with pre-made sci spamming teams that also toss in a few pay-to-win abilities (graviton pulse being one). I don't do either, tbh. The only P2W I use is Impulse Capacitance Cell (which can be overcome with sci spam or subnukes). Other than that, I just rely on decloak alphastrikes, skill, and a bit of luck.
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    He probably means the Danubes.

    I am not a "Feddie" just here to complain and whine about how KDF is OP. In fact, I would say I spend 60-70% of my time on my 2 KDF toons vs. my 1 Fed toon. I was curious if there was a hard counter to this type of team. I'll try to carry some extra boffs and weapons for a layout to counter this with scatter volley, torp spread and eject warp plasma. It's not my prefered layout by any means, but if it's what I gotta do then it's what I gotta do.

    As for danubes, I really don't understand the complaints and comparisons to siphon drones. Yes, they're annoying, but there are hard counters built into the game that can pretty much make your ship immune to tractor beams, such as running 2 APO's, AP doffs, polarize hull, and evasive maneuvers. I have been on the receiving end of both siphon/drain teams as a Fed and tractor/hold teams as a Klink. It is much more manageable to deal with the tractors/holds than it is a fully decked out KDF drain team. Like I said, I'll try what has been recommended, but I have a feeling it ain't gonna be easy, especially with pugs.
  • shookyangshookyang Member Posts: 1,122
    edited October 2012
    skurf wrote: »
    One thing I don't understand is why the devs gave one side 3 unique (and effective) power drain abilities (siphon drones, aceton assimilators, and plasmonic leech).
    Aceton Assimilators' drain is broken. Against a ship with no skill points in Power Insulators, it drains 50% of what it says it will do. At 6 Power Insulators, it is resisted 100%.

    The only thing you have to worry about those is someone firing energy weapons on a tactical buffed Assimilator.
  • naz4naz4 Member Posts: 1,373 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Looks like the pandas need to dust off the anti tuq heghta builds again. :) Me, MT and a couple of others developed very specific builds to counter such a team. Yup, i know i cried once earlier, but........

    AOE is the way to go, but not in the way you think. Energy weapons are absolutely useless in this encounter.

    Husanak, it brinks your favourit weapons into play. The feared torpedos :) and a few other secrets to compliment.
    Aux based team healing is a no go for such an encounter so plenty of team heals is a must.

    PS, warp plasma is useless as you are generally tractored in place as well.
  • dontdrunkimshootdontdrunkimshoot Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    naz4 wrote: »
    Looks like the pandas need to dust off the anti tuq heghta builds again. :) Me, MT and a couple of others developed very specific builds to counter such a team. Yup, i know i cried once earlier, but........

    AOE is the way to go, but not in the way you think. Energy weapons are absolutely useless in this encounter.

    Husanak, it brinks your favourit weapons into play. The feared torpedos :) and a few other secrets to compliment.
    Aux based team healing is a no go for such an encounter so plenty of team heals is a must.

    PS, warp plasma is useless as you are generally tractored in place as well.

    even if you cant move and you release plasma, your killing the drones on you, its kinda fool proof. TBR is good too, even with no aux your dealing lots of damage to them. applying plasma to a team mate who is being siphoned is a quick fix on them too. you need very specific ships to pull off a effective plasma countering though
  • skurfskurf Member Posts: 1,071 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    naz4 wrote: »
    Looks like the pandas need to dust off the anti tuq heghta builds again. :) Me, MT and a couple of others developed very specific builds to counter such a team. Yup, i know i cried once earlier, but........

    AOE is the way to go, but not in the way you think. Energy weapons are absolutely useless in this encounter.

    Husanak, it brinks your favourit weapons into play. The feared torpedos :) and a few other secrets to compliment.
    Aux based team healing is a no go for such an encounter so plenty of team heals is a must.

    PS, warp plasma is useless as you are generally tractored in place as well.

    Why so cryptic? These drain team TRIBBLE need to be put in their place and it's not going to happen with people keeping secrets and giving vague innuendos on how to deal with them. If you know of a way please enlighten us all.
  • matteo716maikaimatteo716maikai Member Posts: 823
    edited October 2012
    Sci spam is when they throw enough sci skills at you to where you run out of debuff-clearing abilities (very quickly). That's still quite applicable, especially when you don't have a dedicated and competent healer around. A good example would be to use sensor scramble, tractor beams, subsystem targeting (sci ships have this automatically, so I consider it a hybrid of sci and tac), sensor scan to massively debuff, subnucleonic beam, energy drain, and maybe throw in a few p2w moves in for flavor. Most sci spam is accompanied by a few eng abilities like warp plasma for extra holding and graphics overload.

    That's why I laugh at people whining about how sci skills are soooo underpowered. Yeah, a few could use a buff (Tachyon Beam, especially), but most of the people complaining are just people who aren't using science builds the way they're supposed to be used. . .to debuff, disable, or hold your opponents and wear through the defenses (or have teammates shred them). They're expecting to use science skills to DPS the heck out of everyone, and that's not what you're supposed to do with most sci skills.

    ill stop sci spaming people when tactical stop DPS spamming.
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  • skurfskurf Member Posts: 1,071 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    shookyang wrote: »
    Aceton Assimilators' drain is broken. Against a ship with no skill points in Power Insulators, it drains 50% of what it says it will do. At 6 Power Insulators, it is resisted 100%.

    The only thing you have to worry about those is someone firing energy weapons on a tactical buffed Assimilator.

    So you're saying if you have 6 power insulators and you're in the middle of a field of aceton assimilators, it drains nothing? I find that hard to believe, but at this point anything is possible it seems. And where in its description does it say that aceton assimilators magically gobble up mines? Mines should counter assimilators, not the other way around. I wonder if this aspect of them is working as intended or if it's some strange bug that just happens to make mines useless against assimilator users.
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