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Bort: What is your wishlist for PvP

havamhavam Member Posts: 1,735 Arc User
edited October 2012 in PvP Gameplay
So its nice and sunny and I'm in a good mood.

Bort, since you seem to have taken over the job of PvP Zsar, despite my occasional disagreements here and there, I m glad that you did.

While it is pretty clear that baby steps, or bread crumbs, is all that is in store for pvp until S9, and based on past experiences, long after that, I don't have the slightest idea about your reasons for whatever changes happen with each patch.

From your point of view, what is the guiding principal of PvP development? I understand that you cannot spill the beans on current developements, timelines, etc, it would be better not to. But in general terms, what is it you guys want to achieve with your changes, and how did you identify xyz as a problem.

I think knowing more about your perspective might help us provide more constructive feedback as well.

TL; DR Is there method to this madness?
Post edited by havam on

Comments

  • matteo716maikaimatteo716maikai Member Posts: 823
    edited October 2012
    havam wrote: »
    So its nice and sunny and I'm in a good mood.

    Bort, since you seem to have taken over the job of PvP Zsar, despite my occasional disagreements here and there, I m glad that you did.

    While it is pretty clear that baby steps, or bread crumbs, is all that is in store for pvp until S9, and based on past experiences, long after that, I don't have the slightest idea about your reasons for whatever changes happen with each patch.

    From your point of view, what is the guiding principal of PvP development? I understand that you cannot spill the beans on current developements, timelines, etc, it would be better not to. But in general terms, what is it you guys want to achieve with your changes, and how did you identify xyz as a problem.

    I think knowing more about your perspective might help us provide more constructive feedback as well.

    TL; DR Is there method to this madness?

    id personally prefer to hear from the guy whos actually "working" on pvp. no offense bort, but you arent the "offical" guy assigned to us.

    i do wonder who that "offical" dude is though and why borticus has to "deal" with us when its this other dudes job...

    odd...
  • dontdrunkimshootdontdrunkimshoot Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    we can only assume there is no one, seeing as 99% of the time its just bort commenting on balance issues that get brought up
  • aquitaine985aquitaine985 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Maybe Bort's dealing with anything that's cropping up in the mean time while our mystery PvP Dev continues where Gozer left off and is porting thing from Neverwinter etc etc.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    @Aquitaine985
    Lag Industries STO PvP Fleet - Executive
    A Sad Panda of Industrial calibre.
    2010: This is Cryptic PvP. Please hold the line, your call is very important to us...
  • edited October 2012
    This content has been removed.
  • havamhavam Member Posts: 1,735 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Well if there is an official guy, or if Bort has a boss telling him to "do stuff about PvP" *hint hint* the same questions apply to them.
  • dassemstodassemsto Member Posts: 792 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Is Borticus really the pvp dev? I though he was the dev who knows his way around abilities... And that he has realized that abilities have to be balanced through pvp.

    If anything, I think we're quite lucky to have a dev with the skill to change abilities AND the sense to know where to get feedback on them.

    As for whatever attention pvp is getting... I think it's more of a steady maintenance approach. Identify issues and adress them when time permits. This means there will always be a weighing of the magnitude of the issue vs. the cost of the fix. This may lead to a minor problem getting attention before a big problem, because fixing it is easy.

    My hunch: Bort is working on many different things, and whenever he's learning/changing one part of the game, he takes some time to adjust abilities related to it. Much like a janitor who is on his way to repair the central heating, if he walks by a loose doorknob on his way there, he pulls out his screwdriver and fixes it, and then proceeds towards his goal.
  • dalnar83dalnar83 Member Posts: 2,420 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    PvP dev is a myth. You are more likely to encounter Yeti.
    "Cryptic Studio’s Jack Emmert (2010): Microtransactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense. I like paying one fee and not worrying about it – like my cellphone. The world’s biggest MMO isn’t item based, even though the black market item GDP is bigger than Russia … microtransactions make me want to die.”
  • edited October 2012
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  • borticuscrypticborticuscryptic Member Posts: 2,478 Cryptic Developer
    edited October 2012
    dassemsto wrote: »
    My hunch: Bort is working on many different things, and whenever he's learning/changing one part of the game, he takes some time to adjust abilities related to it. Much like a janitor who is on his way to repair the central heating, if he walks by a loose doorknob on his way there, he pulls out his screwdriver and fixes it, and then proceeds towards his goal.

    This is closer to the truth for our current state of priorities. We intend to make PvP a larger focus in the future, but for now we're just fixing/tuning things as they crop up on our immediate radar.

    My personal design motivation: For PvP to be a balanced and fun experience that offers rewarding gameplay for both long-term experts, and brand new players.

    But that's just me. That's not an executive mandate or anything.
    Jeremy Randall
    Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
    "Play smart!"
  • edited October 2012
    This content has been removed.
  • dontdrunkimshootdontdrunkimshoot Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    This is closer to the truth for our current state of priorities. We intend to make PvP a larger focus in the future, but for now we're just fixing/tuning things as they crop up on our immediate radar.

    My personal design motivation: For PvP to be a balanced and fun experience that offers rewarding gameplay for both long-term experts, and brand new players.

    But that's just me. That's not an executive mandate or anything.

    i fear the only way to get new players to survive more then 5 seconds in a match is to improve the npc's, make them more player ship like. on ground, the npcs do everything the player can do, heal, use abilities, shoot like you, in space npcs couldn't be more limited or basic.

    at least 50% of space npc durability NEEDS to come from them cycling heals, and they should be fireing 6, 7, 8 weapon like players do too, instead of 1 or 2 and a torp with a huge npc damage modifier applied to them. that will do wonders for pvp, and make the pve 10 times as fun. it would be as simple as giving npcs multiple copies of abilities and having code that tells them to use it as soon as it comes off cool down

    i cant think of anything that would be more beneficial to the game then doing this. as a result new players can jump into pvp and know what to do. it would mean not focusing directly on pvp again, but i think indirectly it will do the most good for it, and with more people playing it cryptic wont have to reluctantly spend time working on this underpopulated content.
  • dassemstodassemsto Member Posts: 792 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    i fear the only way to get new players to survive more then 5 seconds in a match is to improve the npc's, make them more player ship like. on ground, the npcs do everything the player can do, heal, use abilities, shoot like you, in space npcs couldn't be more limited or basic.

    just allow people to que up to control the Borg ships in the STFs! ;)

    It'd be hysterical... you'd never know if one of those spheres will be player controlled and kick your behind! :D
  • stevehalestevehale Member Posts: 437
    edited October 2012
    My personal design motivation: For PvP to be a balanced and fun experience that offers rewarding gameplay for both long-term experts, and brand new players.
    i fear the only way to get new players to survive more then 5 seconds in a match is to improve the npc's, make them more player ship like. on ground, the npcs do everything the player can do, heal, use abilities, shoot like you, in space npcs couldn't be more limited or basic.

    at least 50% of space npc durability NEEDS to come from them cycling heals, and they should be fireing 6, 7, 8 weapon like players do too, instead of 1 or 2 and a torp with a huge npc damage modifier applied to them. that will do wonders for pvp, and make the pve 10 times as fun. it would be as simple as giving npcs multiple copies of abilities and having code that tells them to use it as soon as it comes off cool down

    i cant think of anything that would be more beneficial to the game then doing this. as a result new players can jump into pvp and know what to do. it would mean not focusing directly on pvp again, but i think indirectly it will do the most good for it, and with more people playing it cryptic wont have to reluctantly spend time working on this underpopulated content.

    Both sound great to me.
    __________________________________________
    Foundry: Yet Another Borg Mission
    It's terrible but easy, and these Borg are way cooler than the mess STO and Voyager left us.
    May not actually be "way" cooler or even "slightly" cooler.
  • hurleybirdhurleybird Member Posts: 909
    edited October 2012
    i fear the only way to get new players to survive more then 5 seconds in a match is to improve the npc's, make them more player ship like. on ground, the npcs do everything the player can do, heal, use abilities, shoot like you, in space npcs couldn't be more limited or basic.

    at least 50% of space npc durability NEEDS to come from them cycling heals, and they should be fireing 6, 7, 8 weapon like players do too, instead of 1 or 2 and a torp with a huge npc damage modifier applied to them. that will do wonders for pvp, and make the pve 10 times as fun. it would be as simple as giving npcs multiple copies of abilities and having code that tells them to use it as soon as it comes off cool down

    i cant think of anything that would be more beneficial to the game then doing this. as a result new players can jump into pvp and know what to do. it would mean not focusing directly on pvp again, but i think indirectly it will do the most good for it, and with more people playing it cryptic wont have to reluctantly spend time working on this underpopulated content.

    I think they tend to shy away from this because Cryptic realizes how carebear and pathetic the PvE population is. Remember D'deridex defenders?

    That being said, here's a potential solution:
    1. Scale back NPC ships at lower tiers to provide a learning curve for new players.
    2. But that doesn't help people at max level get on the difficulty curve, so to begin with have every NPC ship scale down to ensign level. Every three weeks or so, scale up the subsequent ranks until you have a linear progression.
  • mellestadstomellestadsto Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    i fear the only way to get new players to survive more then 5 seconds in a match is to improve the npc's, make them more player ship like. on ground, the npcs do everything the player can do, heal, use abilities, shoot like you, in space npcs couldn't be more limited or basic.

    at least 50% of space npc durability NEEDS to come from them cycling heals, and they should be fireing 6, 7, 8 weapon like players do too, instead of 1 or 2 and a torp with a huge npc damage modifier applied to them. that will do wonders for pvp, and make the pve 10 times as fun. it would be as simple as giving npcs multiple copies of abilities and having code that tells them to use it as soon as it comes off cool down

    i cant think of anything that would be more beneficial to the game then doing this. as a result new players can jump into pvp and know what to do. it would mean not focusing directly on pvp again, but i think indirectly it will do the most good for it, and with more people playing it cryptic wont have to reluctantly spend time working on this underpopulated content.

    I wish they'd at least have some special "boss" NPC types that were closer to a PvP enemy. Maybe someday the foundry will let us have that kind of customization.
  • chikahirochikahiro Member Posts: 35 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    dassemsto wrote: »
    just allow people to que up to control the Borg ships in the STFs! ;)

    It'd be hysterical... you'd never know if one of those spheres will be player controlled and kick your behind! :D

    Actually, I think that'd be a GREAT form of PVP, and could make for a more satisfying experience for players, provided they're not just trying to farm rewards. I've played "autopilot" STFs before where everything was nice, precise, methodical, and highly efficient, but boring as hell. They had it down to a science, and that honestly made me less interested in playing with those folks.

    My blog! Zen|Dilithium tracking on Thursdays
    http://samonmaui.blogspot.com
    As a lifetime member of STO, I officially became a financial liability as of April 2012 when compared to a subscriber.
  • chikahirochikahiro Member Posts: 35 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    This is closer to the truth for our current state of priorities. We intend to make PvP a larger focus in the future, but for now we're just fixing/tuning things as they crop up on our immediate radar.

    My personal design motivation: For PvP to be a balanced and fun experience that offers rewarding gameplay for both long-term experts, and brand new players.

    But that's just me. That's not an executive mandate or anything.

    Could I suggest a fixed format and an unlimited format? Unlimited being what we have now, but the fixed format having pre-configured ships and teams? Perhaps specific scenarios (lots of low rank ships vs a few big ones, divided by rank, etc).

    Also, each ship configuration having a point value, with each side (however many) having a limited number of points to assemble their team? Sort of like a tabletop strategy game like Warmachine or Warhammer?

    I realize this would be a "not insignificant" amount of work, but could be a temporary measure between now and whenever a full overhaul is done. If the format proves popular, it could be expanded upon.

    My blog! Zen|Dilithium tracking on Thursdays
    http://samonmaui.blogspot.com
    As a lifetime member of STO, I officially became a financial liability as of April 2012 when compared to a subscriber.
  • zerobangzerobang Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    We intend to make PvP a larger focus in the future, but for now we're just fixing/tuning things as they crop up on our immediate radar.

    mhm... hearing exactly that for 3 years now.
    and thats the reason i could not care less about PvP, because it's going nowhere.

    all that happens ever is one more balance pass or nerf or buff of random space wizzard powers,
    but nothing in terms of new game modes or even maps.

    sorry that is not improving PvP, that is maintaining the status quo of PvP.
    there will allways be that new set or power or c-store console that requires more balance changes.
    granted those are needed, but that is getting pvp nowhere in the big picture.



    yet that could all be a non issue already, because such maps and even modes could be build via the Foundry (what is really needed for a pvp map but spawnpoints and a map?),

    if Cryptic gave us the tools and a foundry pvp map queue.... *sigh* so much untapped potential.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • dalnar83dalnar83 Member Posts: 2,420 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Also, I'm pretty sure many people would buy lifetime subs with decent pvp support for this game.
    "Cryptic Studio’s Jack Emmert (2010): Microtransactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense. I like paying one fee and not worrying about it – like my cellphone. The world’s biggest MMO isn’t item based, even though the black market item GDP is bigger than Russia … microtransactions make me want to die.”
  • havamhavam Member Posts: 1,735 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    This is closer to the truth for our current state of priorities. We intend to make PvP a larger focus in the future, but for now we're just fixing/tuning things as they crop up on our immediate radar.

    My personal design motivation: For PvP to be a balanced and fun experience that offers rewarding gameplay for both long-term experts, and brand new players.

    But that's just me. That's not an executive mandate or anything.

    Thanks for sharing your not executively mandated views with us anyway.

    The learning curve is steep, and to be honest, ppl shying away from learning are not going to make PvP their primary gaming mode. For the record, blowing up newbs, or feeling tempted to rightfully tell your teammates to stop re-spawning because your team has a better chance of winning with one man down instead of with them isn't fun for anybody.

    The following would all help to lessen the learning curve, but require different degrees of Dev time.

    I agree with most in here, that better designed NPCs are the first step for making PvP a more rewarding experience for the beginner. Using the foundry seems like such a win-win proposal that i cannot imagine you guys having discussed this already. In case I'm wrong, I suggest a staff meeting :)

    Another thing that needs to happen is having some kind of practice ground for new builds, with a meaning full log parser output. Ideally you could free style allocate your SP in this simulator. Once you leave the simulator your SP will be whatever they were before you entered. Some kind of simple holodeck simulation on the academies or starbases, with an accolade for ranking up X amount of DMG and Healing. Having some meaningful data of a simple combat situation to compare build performances in game would go a long way. 500Z per respec is simple too expensive for the intensive iterations a beginner is going to have to make, to try out different things.

    The reputation system seems like a good way to reward PvPing, I doubt that there will be a pvp component at release though, see FM for pvp being under review for how long?

    The two biggest unfuns in pvp are stun-locks and one shoots. Next up is the inability to tell if my heals, CC, weapons actually contributed to my team or not. Since stun-locks have been overnerfed (with the rest of science) one shoots seem next in line. Rebalance shields healing should help to bring the necessity of insane burst to score a kill somewhat down. Displaying shield resists, and energy levels in the UI would help to show the effects of CC abilities more.

    Finally, the current leveling curve has completely taken learning to pvp while leveling away. Lower lvl pvp is great for learning counters and the effects of individual skills, while resist stacking is under control. Dan once talked about new tech that would allow us to save a standard small craft to switch to easily. Please consider using that tech for use in pvp, by giving VA's the ability to also select a standard lvl10,20, and 30 ship and layout, if you can restrict the available cpt powers to those of that level. You would have the best pvp training crowd for beginners, and something new and fun to do for vets.

  • matteo716maikaimatteo716maikai Member Posts: 823
    edited October 2012
    i think some incentive should be the more important priority. some fleet marks and when its introduced some reputation needs to be reward for pvp play otherwise no one will ever play it that isnt "into" pvp.

    thats the most important issue imo.
  • aquitaine985aquitaine985 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Hint

    It's a shame we're not getting any new PVP maps/playtypes, if they were related to the Romulans then we could be rewarded Romulan marks for taking part.

    Hint
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    @Aquitaine985
    Lag Industries STO PvP Fleet - Executive
    A Sad Panda of Industrial calibre.
    2010: This is Cryptic PvP. Please hold the line, your call is very important to us...
  • wolverine595959wolverine595959 Member Posts: 726
    edited October 2012
    dalnar83 wrote: »
    Also, I'm pretty sure many people would buy lifetime subs with decent pvp support for this game.


    Or Come back.
    Hey I Used to be Captain Data, well I guess I still am in game but the account link really screwed everything up :rolleyes:
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