Proposal for balance

trimenranger1

Ok I have read 100 or so threads about brining balance or how to return cruisers to their former glory. I may have an idea that will be controversial. Special Multipliers for both vessels and weapons


Instead of having a generic 10km engagement range, vary them by ship class and weapons. Also vary the performances of the ships. Cruisers with the same engine already turn slower than an escort but to keep pace in straight line speed??

proposed range multipliers

Attack range multiplier: [vessel/structure]
Star bases: 3.0
Satellite: 1.8
Cruiser: 1.5
Science Vessel: 1.25
Escort: 1.0
Shuttle: .75

Base range: [Weaponsystems]
Energy Weapon Bank Single: 14km
Energy Weapon Dual Bank: 12km
Energy Weapon Cannon Single: 12km
Energy Weapon Cannon Dual: 12km
Energy Weapon Cannon Dual Heavy: 10km
Projectile Torpedo: 20km
Projectile Mine: 0km (5km trigger range unmodifiable)

Damage Fall off:
Energy Weapon Bank Single: (-5%/km)/(Range multiplier )
Energy Weapon Dual Beam Bank: (-4%/km)/(Range multiplier )
Energy Weapon Single Cannon: (-8%/km)/(Range multiplier*1.75)
Energy Weapon Dual Cannon: (-9%/km)/(Range multiplier*2.25)
Energy Weapon Dual Heavy Cannon: (-10%/km)/(Range multiplier*3)

EG: Ship; weapon; max firing range, [damage threshold]; 10km range, [damage threshold]
Cruiser; Single Beam Bank; 21km, [30%]; 10km, [66.67%]
Escort; Single Beam Bank; 14km, [30%]; 10km, [50%]
Escort; Dual Heavy Cannon; 10km, [66.67%]

We see that the Cruiser will have a much farther reach and better damage at all ranges then the escort when using single beam weapon however a Dual heavy cannon though limited to 10km on a escort retains the same damage thresholds over the same distances. What makes this lucrative is when a DHC is equipped on a Dreadnaught giving it 15km Range of destruction.

To balance this we also need to have 2 other multipliers. Targeting and speed
Targeting Accuracy
Cruiser: -2.0% / km
Science:-0.25% / km
Escort: -0.5% / km
Eg.
at 21km the cruiser is reduced by 42% accuracy
at 14km a escort is reduced by only 7% accuracy

This means that while cruiser have a super long reach, it will struggle to land shots at maximum ranges while science vessels will be snipers. Stacking accuracy will help offset this.


Speed:
Cruiser: 1.0
Science Vessel: 1.25
Escort: 1.5


All together my proposal will give Escorts a tactical edge in close combat and the ability to rapidly close in on targets, however it give Cruiser captains the ability play strategy. They can fall back out of the fray and engage target outside of the range of return fire. Science vessel can dominate in intermediate ranges with highly precise weapons. Cruisers that can mount Dual Heavy Cannons will enjoy a tremendous boost to combat prowess with the ability to stand off at long range and fire devastating shots from as far as 15km.

discuss

adamkafei

It would be unfair for a cruiser to be capable (hypothetically) of destroying an escort before the escort can fight back, this coming from a cruiser captain

End of

redricky

Are you aware that DHC damage drops off over distance in a considerably steeper fashion than beams?

adamkafei

redricky wrote: »

Are you aware that DHC damage drops off over distance in a considerably steeper fashion than beams?

Are you aware that my Escort unbuffed at 5km out-performs my cruiser with EPtW in place at the same distance?

trimenranger1

adamkafei wrote: »

Are you aware that my Escort unbuffed at 5km out-performs my cruiser with EPtW in place at the same distance?

I propose that the drop off for DHC's be changed? This is part of the balance.

In my proposal a cruiser with Beams will have over twice the firing range of a escort using a DHC however once the Escort that moves 50% faster then a cruiser closes the distance to 10km the DHC's ferocity will more then make up the damage taken in a heart beat as the drop off will mirror that of the Cruiser's beams sub 10km.

My propsal gives cruisers a tremendous area of influence but also improves escorts ability to slug it out in close contact.

Think of the strategies that can be employed.

A strike team centers around the cruisers that engange targets from long range, Escorts can then engage target that are sent to take out the cruisers, with Science ships surgically taking down ship at medium ranges.

If you notice I propose that torps get a 20km base range which mean that a cruiser can shoot across entire maps though torps are not effective vs shielded targets. Can you say artillery barrage to wither down enemy forces? This will force players to use better strategies instead of the head long omni strike routine of escort captains now.

Please read my proposal as it changes everything we know about combat.

vetteguy904

adamkafei wrote: »

It would be unfair for a cruiser to be capable (hypothetically) of destroying an escort before the escort can fight back, this coming from a cruiser captain

End of

not really because the cruiser is not going to be able to stay far enough away long enough

hereticknight085

This idea has already come up a few times. And as stated, you would need to change too much. Sooo yeah. No.

treaen

On the whole, I think this is a really interesting idea. But I don't think it's interesting from the point of view of balance because, generally speaking, I think balance is dumb. For the purpose of easy illustration of my point, there's no reason that the Defiant should be able to go up against the Enterprise D by itself and win that fight by destroying the Enterprise. It just doesn't make sense from a physics point of view. The important systems on the Enterprise are much more heavily protected than the important systems on the Defiant and while it should be theoretically possible for every single variable to line up so that Ben Sisko could fire a single torpedo at Jean-Luc Picard and hit the right place at the right angle to blow the whole ship up, the chances are ridiculously low. It's far more likely that the Defiant would not be able to hold out. But I digress...

What I find interesting about this idea of yours is the idea of varying how the game is played depending on what kind of career path you've chosen. At the end of the day, every skill of each of the classes is available to every player in the game. You can pick which ones you want to have and use them to your heart's content. This, coupled with the fact that any ship can go up against any other ship and have even money for who will come out of the fight, makes for a game that is pretty narrow in function. There just aren't that many options for what you can do (and some of those options are just patently dumb tactics). Pretty much what it boils down to is get close, try to keep your torpedoes facing your enemy, and shoot until they explode. Anybody who has played the game long enough will be set up to counter most potential BOFF abilities, so fights really do come down to who happens to roll the best numbers (which is something we don't have control over).

Your idea means that you get to make different choices based on what kind of ship you're flying and I think that's really cool and infinitely more challenging. If you're flying an escort, you have to figure out how to minimize the damage that you're going to take while you're out of range. If you're flying a cruiser, you have to figure out how to hold your enemy at a distance so that you have the advantage. It places an emphasis on personal strategy rather than game mechanics being ever in your favor. You can make any number of choices on how to use your weapons. And I would even argue that the plan here should be extended to all the BOFF and Captain abilities too so that they scale differently for the captain using them or the ship they're being used on.

There's gotta be huge sacrifices for each gain though. And I would also say that there's gotta be some further options between the differences within the classes so that if you want to fly a cruiser but don't want to be forced into having a bigger advantage at a distance, you have the option to play some other way but still fly a cruiser.

bludagger

Hmmm, interesting proposal...

let me study some on that trimenranger1 and get back with ya.

Unknown

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trimenranger1

Treaen,

good response.

The idea is to give ships actual purposes and better defined roles that better mirror real world tactics. Capital ships are the center piece of the fleet with attendant and pickett ships arrayed around it for protection. Cruisers have firepower range but lack the versatility and agility of Frigates and destroyers.

under my model Cruisers would be the long range heavy hitter, the true capital ship. Escorts become destroyers and science ships become the guided missile frigate.

This will force players to seriously consider role and capabilites when assembling a attack group. The only variance in abilities to my proposals should come from captain traits. BOFF's and DOFF's should not have varying effect based on the captain's career choice. What should change is the bias on missions. A tactical captain should have more combat missions, a science capatain should have more exploration, and engineers should have more support.

Think of the capatain career as another multiplier.

skyranger1414

treaen wrote: »

On the whole, I think this is a really interesting idea. But I don't think it's interesting from the point of view of balance because, generally speaking, I think balance is dumb. For the purpose of easy illustration of my point, there's no reason that the Defiant should be able to go up against the Enterprise D by itself.......

Actually, there is. In the game both the Galaxy and the Defiant are one player. if they are not equally powerful one type of pilot isn't going to hang around. Just an FYI, cruisers are not like tanks in traditional trinity MMOs, there is NO hero ship in STO, and a lot of us like it that way. Its a pity so many cruiser pilots don't seem to realize the problem is THEM insisting all fights should be defaulted to the one that can last the longest while trading shots at 10 km....

trimenranger1 wrote: »

The idea is to give ships actual purposes and better defined roles that better mirror real world tactics. Capital ships are the center piece of the fleet with attendant and pickett ships arrayed around it for protection. Cruisers have firepower range but lack the versatility and agility of Frigates and destroyers.

Why? No thanks. I'd rather go in with ANY team makeup and know the objective is achievable. Stop trying to make all games fit into a trinity or trinity-like setup.

adamkafei

You know the main thing I want?

I want my multi-purpose jack of all trades, best at nothing, cruiser build to be viable again... that would make my play style viable again which would make me very happy

trimenranger1

skyranger1414 wrote: »

Why? No thanks. I'd rather go in with ANY team makeup and know the objective is achievable. Stop trying to make all games fit into a trinity or trinity-like setup.

Ahh that is the beauty in my design. If you know real world tactics frigates and destroyers act as standalone vessels with tremedous capabilities. It's all about how you integrate those capabilities within a fleet.

I proposed a way to balance each ship against one another so that each will have a situational advantage they can exploit.

I do not see how my design creates a trinity; DPS, Healer, Tank. I am solely focused on combat capabilities. Cruisers become long range artillery but have the armor to take shots up close. Escorts become fast moving piranha chewing up anything that comes into range. Science Ship become surgeons cutting out ships from the body of their enemy fleets with great precisicion at intermediate ranges.

This is not tank, healer, DPS, this is layered RDPS with variable effectiveness given ship class, skill layouts.