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I want to love the Fleet Defiant, but I don't.

ussultimatumussultimatum Member Posts: 0 Arc User
edited December 2012 in Federation Discussion
Yes, I know it has a cloaking device.

Yes, I know it has 5 Tac consoles which makes some people drool and others rage.


My issue with the Fleet Defiant is the 3rd Tactical Ensign slot.

It forces me to either:

A) Use a Torpedo Launcher, which has proved less overall DPS in a variety of situations.

B) Use a DBB, which is quite clearly worse than a DHC. I personally don't feel BO 1 has enough value to justify losing a DHC over - if BO 1 had less post-use weapon drain, maybe. Right now BO 1 drains as much as BO 3, with a much reduced effect.


I feel like the Fleet Defiant is an overall great ship, with 1 Tactical Ensign slot that generally does nothing but devalue the overall package - and that's the only thing continually stopping me from buying the Fleet version of this ship on several characters.


Maybe I'm alone in this, what are other people's thoughts?
Post edited by ussultimatum on
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Comments

  • marc8219marc8219 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    A few other ideas for the third ensign slot are using subsytem targeting with a DBB, put a chroniton torp in the rear instead of front and use THY1 for snares, or just let the slot go to waste and run 4 DHC and 3 turrets, you will still have more firepower then a 4DHC patrol escort just less heals.

    These wouldnt be so efective in pve though, in pve better off just using a coventional 3DHC 1 torp up front setup and the Defiants BOff layout works perfect for that. I've used DPS parsers and my escorts using a torp up front always do more dps in STFs then my 4 DHC builds. 4 DHC builds can do more dps in pvp though.
    Tala -KDF Tac- House of Beautiful Orions
  • intrepid74656intrepid74656 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Looking at the Sao Paolo (refit) it has 2 eng boff slots. I find it strange that the retrofit suddenly replaces that 1 eng ensign slot with a tac one.

    My suggestion is then to keep the Sao Paolo (refit) layout for boffs. Or make the ensign slot a universal but that would probably make the Defiant the best ship around.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • khayuungkhayuung Member Posts: 1,876 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    that would probably make the Defiant the best ship around.

    Exactly why this is working as intended. The only ship to be "perfect" is the FPE, but it also has the problem of only 4 tacs and no way of getting a discount.


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  • ussultimatumussultimatum Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    khayuung wrote: »
    Exactly why this is working as intended. The only ship to be "perfect" is the FPE, but it also has the problem of only 4 tacs and no way of getting a discount.


    Except it isn't.

    The third tactical ensign slot is fairly low in value, if there were better options for escorts - especially all cannon escorts - at Ensign level, the ship would be in better shape.
  • trhrangerxmltrhrangerxml Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    I just use it to keep tac team up and running all the time, add the Temporal console and now it as the same DPS and turn of the Bug.
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  • intrepid74656intrepid74656 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    I just use it to keep tac team up and running all the time, add the Temporal console and now it as the same DPS and turn of the Bug.

    I already have a problem with shared cooldowns with 2 conn officers for tac team.

    TY1 or if you run a beam BO1 would be better imho.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,594 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Yes, I know it has a cloaking device.

    Yes, I know it has 5 Tac consoles which makes some people drool and others rage.


    My issue with the Fleet Defiant is the 3rd Tactical Ensign slot.

    It forces me to either:

    A) Use a Torpedo Launcher, which has proved less overall DPS in a variety of situations.

    B) Use a DBB, which is quite clearly worse than a DHC. I personally don't feel BO 1 has enough value to justify losing a DHC over - if BO 1 had less post-use weapon drain, maybe. Right now BO 1 drains as much as BO 3, with a much reduced effect.


    I feel like the Fleet Defiant is an overall great ship, with 1 Tactical Ensign slot that generally does nothing but devalue the overall package - and that's the only thing continually stopping me from buying the Fleet version of this ship on several characters.


    Maybe I'm alone in this, what are other people's thoughts?


    Completely agree. That station should be a universal ensign station, so you can use it for EPtS1. Hence, reluctantly, I went back to my 'lowly' Shipyard Tier 1 Fleet Patrol Escort, which tanks endlessly better as a result of it.
    3lsZz0w.jpg
  • ussultimatumussultimatum Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    I just use it to keep tac team up and running all the time, add the Temporal console and now it as the same DPS and turn of the Bug.

    You can only ever utilize 2 copies of tac team.

    Forcing an all cannon build1 Ensign slot to fill, that forces you into a Torpedo or a DBB whether you like it or not.

    Or you could just leave it empty, losing a BOFF slot.
  • redrickyredricky Member Posts: 1,004 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    You could lose a turret for a beam array and run TSS:E. But yeah, my favorite was the person who said the Defiant ensign tac station is used for bring your child to work day.
    _______________
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  • edited October 2012
    This content has been removed.
  • neos472neos472 Member Posts: 580 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    I really don't see a problem with the Fleet Defiant i just use the tac ensign slot for one copy of tac team allowing me to use even cooler stuff in places where i would have that to compensate my shields. i am now very keen on getting that temporal console now for my Defiant R and see what it does for the ship. i say it is a good ship in the right hands and it can be a giant killer with all those tac slots.
    manipulator of time and long time space traveler
  • edited October 2012
    This content has been removed.
  • neos472neos472 Member Posts: 580 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    So you are using 3 copies of TT? Or are you using something else in one of them?

    i use 2 copies of tac team i beleve both ensign level and a torp spread 1 in the third and since i would have to give up torp spread 1 normally with just 2 tac officer slots on other escorts this third one allows me to keep a good AOE attack at my disposal to help tear apart groups of ships.
    manipulator of time and long time space traveler
  • ferdzso0ferdzso0 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    yeah, it is only ideal for torpedo builds. though as I am playing a heavily torpedo based set up usually (two torps in front), I dont mind that.

    but even I would trade that slot for something, if it was possible

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  • captainf00kcaptainf00k Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    I had this thought myself and actually started a thread on it (http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=370481). Mainly, it was said the ship would be OP.

    I pretty much do what marc said. I took the weakness and turned it into flexibility. I leave torp spread 1 in there. Its mostly useless in PVP unless you're doing KvF. The Klingons love their carriers and there are usually 1 or 2 in a pug. Toss a quantum in and hit the assimilators with it. Do the same with STF.It works better, especially in crowd control situations. In normal PVP just let it go to waste. I do agree with you though, it's a fleet ship and it seems that a universal ensign would be appropriate.

    Edit: typo.
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  • neos472neos472 Member Posts: 580 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    I had this thought myself and actually started a thread on it (http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=370481). Mainly, it was said the ship would be OP.

    I pretty much do what marc said. I took the weakness and turned it into flexibility. I leave torp spread 1 in there. Its mostly useless in PVP unless you're doing KvF. The Klingons love their carriers and there are usually 1 or 2 in a pug. Toss a quantum in and hit the assimilators with it. Do the same with STF.It works better, especially in crowd control situations. In normal PVP just let it go to waste. I do agree with you though, it's a fleet ship and it seems that a universal ensign would be appropriate.

    Edit: typo.

    since i don't do PvP much at all the layout i have really cuts swaths in the enemy lines and i highly recommend if anyone gets a defiant try to find a subspace jumper console those things are great for a escort or cruiser since they get you right behind a target you can unleash a devastating barrage on their backs while they lose track of you.
    manipulator of time and long time space traveler
  • shookyangshookyang Member Posts: 1,122
    edited October 2012
    I don't have any problems with not slotting the 3rd ensign power. Even without it, a properly configured Tactical Escort Retrofit can handle itself pretty well.

    If you really want to use that 3rd tactical ability, you could consider putting a beam array in the after and BO1. That way, you can hit them with a BO shot as you're flying by them.

    But, yeah...all of the Ensign tactical slots (with he exception of Tactical Team) are pretty useless.
  • partizan81partizan81 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Completely agree with what others have said: put a TT1 in there, that's almost certainly what it was built for. Put a TT1 into one of the other two Tac slots, and you'll be able to handle a fair bit more incoming damage on a facing-shield because you'll constantly be daisy-chaining your TTs.

    With that said, I have a fleet Defiant on my tac, and I stopped using it, constantly was grabbing aggro and that's bad business in a glass cannon.
  • darkenzedddarkenzedd Member Posts: 881
    edited October 2012
    No one is questioning using the third tac slot for a tt1 or ts1 etc, but what they are getting at is it makes the Fleet Defiant one of more limited ships.
    It limits the Defiant to only cannon and torp/beam builds, instead of all cannons which does more dps.
    Having a uni ensign slot would turn this around in an instant, especially as its a T3 shipyard ship!
  • ussultimatumussultimatum Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    shookyang wrote: »
    I don't have any problems with not slotting the 3rd ensign power. Even without it, a properly configured Tactical Escort Retrofit can handle itself pretty well.

    You might not have any problems with it, but the very fact that some people don't actually slot anything there because there is nothing to slot - is in fact a problem with BOFF powers and BOFF layouts.

    One or the other needs to change.



    partizan81 wrote: »
    Completely agree with what others have said: put a TT1 in there, that's almost certainly what it was built for. Put a TT1 into one of the other two Tac slots


    There are 3 tactical ensign slots to fill.


    For the rest, please re-read the OP as it's already covered.
  • nuclearwesslenuclearwessle Member Posts: 57 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    You might not have any problems with it, but the very fact that some people don't actually slot anything there because there is nothing to slot - is in fact a problem with BOFF powers and BOFF layouts.

    One or the other needs to change.



    No, it really doesnt need to change. Its one ship of many, and this one has this configuration. If you use a torpedo, its a good configuration... actuatlly a great one. If you don't, there are other ships available of the same quality. The player makes the choice to use the ship and then not slot anything in the ensign slot.

    Cryptic is not obligated to make every possible build work on every ship.

    If there was a ship that noone had a problem with from a slot/console perspective, then everyone would have a problem with it being OP. And in fact it would be. The Defiant's downside is that its squishy. A universal ensign would make it less so.
  • ussultimatumussultimatum Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Its one ship of many, and this one has this configuration.

    The Armitage & MVAE also suffer from having a third tactical ensign slot.

    At the least, they gain a use Ltc Eng or Sci power in return for the trade off.

    The Fleet MVAE, even gets 5 tactical consoles.


    If you use a torpedo, its a good configuration... actuatlly a great one.

    It's not that great.

    The only thing that Torpedos are currently good for are dealing with Fodder ships.

    This tends to drop your average DPS off by quite a bit (using Elite STFs as an example you can go from 6k DPS to 8-10k DPS by running all DHCs/Turrets).


    Those same fodder ships can be destroyed with just cannon fire, maybe it takes 1 or 2s more - or maybe it doesn't.

    A 4x DHC + 3x Turret build Escort can easily do the menial tasks in Elite STFs like Guard Kang solo or take both sides of KASE probes out.




    Cryptic is...

    Cryptic from what I've seen actively does pursue an agenda of trying to make all (or as many as possible) choices valid.

    And the simple truth is that no one good player actively chooses a third tactical ensign when an Engineering or Science ensign power is available.

    That's because 2 of those choices are drastically superior to the other one.

    The same goes for 3rd Eng slots on cruisers like the Galaxy-R. This is part of why it's dubbed 'Failaxy'.


    The rest of your post was just a rant on "why things should never be considered for balance passes".


    Which is a terrible premise.
  • shookyangshookyang Member Posts: 1,122
    edited October 2012
    You might not have any problems with it, but the very fact that some people don't actually slot anything there because there is nothing to slot - is in fact a problem with BOFF powers and BOFF layouts.

    One or the other needs to change.
    Not every person flies an all cannon build, though. For those who do not, the lay out is fine.

    Building the ship around the idea that it's going to be all cannons doesn't give the ship a lot of flexibility.

    The Tactical Escort Retrofit (and, by extension, the Fleet Tactical Escort Retrofit) can cloak and give it an extra +15% to its alpha strike. Now, the Fleet Tactical Escort Retrofit gets a 5th tactical console slot.

    Giving it either ship an ensign level ability other than tactical would make this ship too powerful (extra shield/hull heals and resistances, debuffs, etc.). There's not going to be any balance (with the high turn rate, 5th console, etc) and everyone will be flying this ship rather than anything else.

    That's going to cut down on variety and team work. Why would you need a carrier or sci, when you can debuff or heal yourself with the extra sci/eng ability?

    Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't mind if they changed the BOFF to something else other than tactical. But, I still think the Tactical Escort Retrofit and the Fleet Tactical Escort Retrofit are worth it as it is. Even if I don't use that 3rd tactical ensign ability.
  • captainf00kcaptainf00k Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    partizan81 wrote: »
    Completely agree with what others have said: put a TT1 in there, that's almost certainly what it was built for. Put a TT1 into one of the other two Tac slots, and you'll be able to handle a fair bit more incoming damage on a facing-shield because you'll constantly be daisy-chaining your TTs.

    With that said, I have a fleet Defiant on my tac, and I stopped using it, constantly was grabbing aggro and that's bad business in a glass cannon.

    Your commander and lieutenant commander should already have TT1slotted. This leaves you with a third ensign slot. Another TT1 is completely useless there. As far as DBB's go; they chew on power, beam overload destroys your weapons power level. DBB shouldn't be fired at the same time as cannons and vice versa. Since one key fires all energy weapons, you would be forced to bind cannons to one key and your DBB to another. See Hilbert's guide for instructions. If another cannon power or attack power existed for an ensign boff it would share cooldowns with powers that should already be slotted. The only logical thing to put there is a torpedo and that's situational. A universal slot would offer more survivability for the Defiant and bring it more in line with the bug.
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  • shookyangshookyang Member Posts: 1,122
    edited October 2012
    A 4x DHC + 3x Turret build Escort can easily do the menial tasks in Elite STFs like Guard Kang solo or take both sides of KASE probes out.
    Menial tasks? Forget that...you can solo cubes in Infected and KA elites. Even more so if you stay below or above the cube, so it can't fire it's heavy torpedo.

    In Cure, the probes get taken out pretty quickly too.
  • jacenjacen24jacenjacen24 Member Posts: 159 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    I dont pvp so i cant comment on that. I always rock a torpedo in front.

    I am looking forward to getting this.

    This is like a nuker or "mage" from other mmo's. Does huge spike dmg but if you get hate ur dead. The game needs more of this. Everyone seems to want everyship to be able to do everthing.

    Put a torp spread in the spot and time with cannon scatter volley to get as many hall hits as you can.

    If you want an all cannon ship then yes this waste. But there are othe options for that.

    However a universal is too much. They shouldve released it with out that boff spot at all. Just done 4 boff spots like the BoP.
  • ussultimatumussultimatum Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    shookyang wrote: »
    Not every person flies an all cannon build, though. For those who do not, the lay out is fine.

    For those who do not, they consider it fine but it tends to under-perform.

    That's why people like yourself don't slot anything there at all.

    shookyang wrote: »
    Giving it either ship an ensign level ability other than tactical would make this ship too powerful (extra shield/hull heals and resistances, debuffs, etc.). There's not going to be any balance (with the high turn rate, 5th console, etc) and everyone will be flying this ship rather than anything else.

    Ultimately my complaint is one we've seen before, lack of variety or useful things to slot at the ensign level.


    I also think people generally over-estimate the impact of a single tactical console slot.

    I've got both the JHAS (5 slots) and the standard Patrol Escort (4 slots) and the two are generally neck and neck with DPS output.
  • nuclearwesslenuclearwessle Member Posts: 57 Arc User
    edited October 2012

    The rest of your post was just a rant on "why things should never be considered for balance passes".


    Which is a terrible premise.

    it would be a terrible premise if that was my premise. But its not. You oversimplified and responded to the oversimplification, which I recognize is an easy and reliable way to "win the internet" But im really not interested in winning. In fact I find value in most, if not all of your response, and dont particularly disagree with most of it.

    What I meant was not that "things are fine. All thing. All the time. Change is bad and messes things up." Many many things in this game need a balance pass. Like most of Science. But "balance pass", and "eliminating drawbacks" are two different things. My Bortasqu makes a great all-cannon build too... if only Cryptic could see fit to eliminate the clearly erroneous turn rate so the ship could function like other escorts.....

    In other words, to get something (Cloak and turn rate), the Defiant has to give something (less appealing Boff Slots and hull). Changing that is not a balance pass, its an imbalance pass.

    My job is great because I get paid, if only my employer would give it a balance pass so I wouldnt really have to work.


    At any rate, the question is fundamentally this... Is the Defiant a worse ship than other escorts, and if so is it because of the Boff layout? I dont think so, but I recognize that this is my opinion and nothing more.
  • partizan81partizan81 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    There are 3 tactical ensign slots to fill.


    For the rest, please re-read the OP as it's already covered.

    Oh I understand, you're just focusing too much on filling that third slot with something un-useful. Use 2x TTs, and put a TS1 in the other. This is a standard build that many people use:

    CMDR TAC: TS1, CSV1, TS3, APB3 (or APO3 if you prefer)
    LTCMDR TAC: TT1, CSV1, APB2/APO1
    ENS TAC: TT1

    I prefer torps over beams, both because of the damage and the more forgiving weapons power.

    edit: additionally, if you're not using torps, you should be. All cannons are nice DPS but your power levels can be problematic, and torps + supporting doffs can yield good results.
  • hanoverhanover Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Same layout as the VA Defiant, so this is not a complaint that's new to the fleet version. For me, it's not a complaint at all. I find it neither wasteful nor useless. Then again, I don't mind being "forced" :rolleyes: to include a beam bank and torpedo launchers. I'd put a Tactical officer there even if it was a universal slot.


    With that layout, I am able to run:

    Beam Overload III, Cannon Rapid Fire III, Torpedo High Yield III. (alpha strike)

    Beam Fire at Will I, Cannon Scatter Volley I, Torpedo Spread II. (crowd control/secondary attack)

    So, with a third Tactical bridge officer, I can also have Torpedo Spread I for the aft launcher as I pass the target, and still have room for Tactical Team I.

    Pretty versatile, and I almost always have a little something extra for a target.


    Weapon loadout, if you're curious:

    Antiproton Dual Heavy Cannons Mk XII (anti-Borg) x 2
    Antiproton Dual Beam Bank Mk XI x 1
    Quantum Torpedo Launcher Mk XII (anti-Borg) x 1

    Antiproton Turret Mk XII (anti-Borg) x 2
    Quantum Torpedo Launcher (the Regent version with 180 degree firing arc)

    Sometimes I need DPS, sometimes I need burst damage. Not exactly a focused, specialized build, but I can usually BS my way through most tasks that way.
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