Finally meaningful tradeoffs and opportunity costs are being realized, while pointless cds continue to be removed.
A ship extending another ship wont have the same uber shield power granted by eps.
-As a corollary benefit, this will heighten the likelihood of usingOTHER emp powers instead of all encompassing spacebar bind noobtardo 2xeps on every build.
A ship using RSP wont be able to have self hardened shields without aux or ally's aid.
- this means the power of KINETIC increased x10 vs rsp. In addition, one shot overblows through rsp will be ever more common, from beam overload and even cannon crits.
A ship just using emps wont be able to rsp or extend another.
-ding ding, cd timer-watcher heroes unite as the window smashers will crush those unable to defend against even CRAPTARD NOOB CANNONS UNBUFFED.
Because, yes, its true, rsp cure all stop insta death when facing the vast majority of all energy weapons types in this game.
Now the entire dynamic of shield-heals-rsp is going to be shaken up.
Oh and couple that with the fact youll probably be scrambled to immunity and withotu at least one system most of the time.
again... great reasons to pack something else besides emps....
maybe the *OMG it takes more then me facerolling my spacebar for 2sec to kill a cruiser attention span too short* should give more credit to the objections by those who think this was a bad implementation.
WB mini, how is MWO? wanna drop some tric mines there?
yup, the "i dont wanna die!! ever!!!" crowd chimed in and turned the devs
It wasn't just them, there was the "But I want to help my team mates" crowd as well, under that system you send an ES to a team mate then you get facerolled by 1 escort because if it... That's fair? That's balanced? No, neither of them are, that penalises those who help others to survive not encourage it (which is what the devs say they want to do)
It wasn't just them, there was the "But I want to help my team mates" crowd as well, under that system you send an ES to a team mate then you get facerolled by 1 escort because if it... That's fair? That's balanced? No, neither of them are, that penalises those who help others to survive not encourage it (which is what the devs say they want to do)
If that where in fact the real reason they did it... well they would have left the RSP EPTS global in place...
No the flat out caved to the qq.
Sure he made some odd convoluted post about wanting to encourage sci heals... but if he wanted that he would have changed them more... I have no doubt that may have been part of it... really I think he knew full well that the ES change would remove the attractiveness of putting extends on escorts and sci ships... lets face it no one runs engi cruiser healers any more in real pvp... that is a major issue that this change would have helped change. Devs going back on this is spineless.
well their subderfuge was a success as i reinstalled the game already. like an advert for a lemon tnat hits home, i went all the way down to the dealership, driving home in a pinto again
i guess i should have realized 200 pages of rant newbie qq outweighs one mans interpretation
The reversion back to standard play after the change was a good choice.
It wasn't the qq that did it. The change was meant to discourage ES circle jerks, and make pugs have a better chance. It did the opposite. Real healers in a premade compensated easily, without a drop in effectiveness (or much of one) because of teamwork and the soloers and small group pvpers got smashed in the balls by everyone because they couldn't count on any or minimal crosshealing to cover the gaps. It had a backwards effect from what was intended.
A much better proposition is just to fix multiple procs of BFI doffs and Borg set. That severely weakens shield healing on most builds.
Finally meaningful tradeoffs and opportunity costs are being realized, while pointless cds continue to be removed.
A ship extending another ship wont have the same uber shield power granted by eps.
-As a corollary benefit, this will heighten the likelihood of usingOTHER emp powers instead of all encompassing spacebar bind noobtardo 2xeps on every build.
A ship using RSP wont be able to have self hardened shields without aux or ally's aid.
- this means the power of KINETIC increased x10 vs rsp. In addition, one shot overblows through rsp will be ever more common, from beam overload and even cannon crits.
A ship just using emps wont be able to rsp or extend another.
-ding ding, cd timer-watcher heroes unite as the window smashers will crush those unable to defend against even CRAPTARD NOOB CANNONS UNBUFFED.
Because, yes, its true, rsp cure all stop insta death when facing the vast majority of all energy weapons types in this game.
Now the entire dynamic of shield-heals-rsp is going to be shaken up.
Oh and couple that with the fact youll probably be scrambled to immunity and withotu at least one system most of the time.
again... great reasons to pack something else besides emps....
It wasn't the qq that did it. The change was meant to discourage ES circle jerks, and make pugs have a better chance. It did the opposite. Real healers in a premade compensated easily, without a drop in effectiveness (or much of one) because of teamwork and the soloers and small group pvpers got smashed in the balls by everyone because they couldn't count on any or minimal crosshealing to cover the gaps. It had a backwards effect from what was intended.
Please.
Before the changes when I was pugging, I was in a match where I outhealed both teams and did not get one ****ing heal from anyone in the entire match-didn't use shield doffs either. I healed everyone else in my team.
That's the TRIBBLE I expected on a routine basis and have mostly accepted as part of the norm.
That's why I leveled a Klingon healer, because I expected most pugs on that side to be Tacs or fail Scis.
I would have just ran an aux healing setup if the changes stayed.
Stupid pugs weren't going to get affected by these changes one bit.
They would still be useless ****s who don't care about helping anyone.
Yeah, these premade dudes who hated the changes were complaining for the sake of the poor little noob pugs like me.
ROTFL.
Husanak and Minimax were 100% on the money.
This would have given a swift kick in the TRIBBLE to those boring lolheal setups and made the game less of boring extend snooze fest.
I just wish they would nerf ES, bring back the old-new PSW with no teampower usage. And get rid of those god-doffs like the SDOs too.
sadly this change is on its way out. i happened upon one pug 15_0 (we had good klink players obviously) during my one hour of play before work. had a few fights in kerrat, still able to one pass people with double tap bo hy psw tric combo during ideal opportunity.
i hope the intent behind this change lives on in the form of renewed balancing efforts
Please
Yeah, these premade dudes who hated the changes were complaining for the sake of the poor little noob pugs like me.
ROTFL.
Sorry you fly with ****ty pugs. Maybe you should get a decent team?
Most people qq'd because it was a terrible idea. It hurts premades, but it hurts puggers a whole, whole, whole lot more. After flying with the changes in full team in both random queues and in actual premade matches I can verify this with empirically. Full out healboats in a random would die in about 13 seconds. They would vaporize right after rsp came off.
It was a bad idea, and didn't address BFI and Borg multiprocs. Do that and tac team and no amount of healing can keep up with firing on a single shield facing.
But what do I know, I'm just a dedicated primary healer in one of the top pvp fleets. :rolleyes:
Sorry you fly with ****ty pugs. Maybe you should get a decent team?
Most people qq'd because it was a terrible idea. It hurts premades, but it hurts puggers a whole, whole, whole lot more. After flying with the changes in full team in both random queues and in actual premade matches I can verify this with empirically. Full out healboats in a random would die in about 13 seconds. They would vaporize right after rsp came off.
It was a bad idea, and didn't address BFI and Borg multiprocs. Do that and tac team and no amount of healing can keep up with firing on a single shield facing.
But what do I know, I'm just a dedicated primary healer in one of the top pvp fleets. :rolleyes:
Nixus
whew...if you'd have said "But what do I know, I'm just a great primary healer in one of the top pvp fleets", I'd have called BS. good maybe, but it would have to be a good day
Oh, and zyphoid is right. The community is split on this, and I believe its with good reason. Healing is to powerful right now. This was one broken mechanic chasing another however (imo). The mechanic needs to be fixed at its root
Sorry you fly with ****ty pugs. Maybe you should get a decent team?
Most people qq'd because it was a terrible idea. It hurts premades, but it hurts puggers a whole, whole, whole lot more. After flying with the changes in full team in both random queues and in actual premade matches I can verify this with empirically. Full out healboats in a random would die in about 13 seconds. They would vaporize right after rsp came off.
If I didn't play this game as infrequently and mostly for the lols, I'd try to play with people I know.
Most know better than to play this game and play other games instead.
I perfectly understand the gripe people had with the change.
But ultimately it doesn't affect most pugs who never even run ES, let alone TacTeam. I guess it may affect lone pug healers like me, but I'm the prime target against a premade anyway.
Dying 4 seconds earlier doesn't make a difference to me anyway.
I'm still getting subnuked and still not getting one heal my way.
No, the main people affected and the main complainants were the premades who have relied on the expectation of ES and RSP mitigation for so long, that they can't or won't do without it.
That's fine.
Just don't dress it up as a more general concern for the community.
I was mildly against the EPtS/RSP coupling because I saw it as a kick in the teeth towards cruisers. (I haven't used RSP on an escort in years... I'd probably take it if I were in a serious situation where I can't ignore incoming damage but 99% of games in queues aren't like that so).
I was ambivalent towards the EPtS/ES coupling... I predicted that strong teams wouldn't miss a beat and that they'd easily find other ways to cover the gap, and assuming zyphoid's account is true, then I was proven right.
A suggestion I've heard which I really liked was to make ES an Eng captain skill. You'd have a much more compelling reason to field some Engies in a team.
ES is a healing ability. Engineers should not be condemned to be healers.
No, no, no.
a) It's just one power. Cool your jets there Maverick.
b) Two of the three possible roles (DPS, debuff/CC) have already been filled out. If you have some magical fourth option no one's yet considered, by all means tell us because you'll rightly revolutionize MMO design far beyond Star Trek Online.
a) It's just one power. Cool your jets there Maverick.
b) Two of the three possible roles (DPS, debuff/CC) have already been filled out. If you have some magical fourth option no one's yet considered, by all means tell us because you'll rightly revolutionize MMO design far beyond Star Trek Online.
You'll have to excuse him, his first ship when he joined these threads was a tac/carrier he was trying to heal in. Now he's trying to get his engy to do damage...
You'll have to excuse him, his first ship when he joined these threads was a tac/carrier he was trying to DPS in (without using TBR, or the at the time potent PSW3 or even warp plasma). Now he's trying to get his engy to do damage...
Lol...guess that's true. Biggest thing I remember about that train wreck build is his refusal to use EptS claiming ET1>EptS1. Now he's got a thread saying EptS needs to benerfed...lol
A suggestion I've heard which I really liked was to make ES an Eng captain skill. You'd have a much more compelling reason to field some Engies in a team.
I actually suggested this to havam about a week ago in a discussion we were having about the usefulness of engies in pvp. I believe it was dontdrunk that suggested making MW and RSF useable on team mates as well. Replace nadion with extend3 and overnight the engy class would go from useless to a must have on the team. Also worth noting sophie is if you free up the BO slots where extend would have been, you open up slots to do more damage and cc with abilities like EWP and DEM (once they fix it). If they'd buff aceton somehow, that would give three high tier abilties to use in place of the ES that would be inherint to your class.
ES is a healing ability. Engineers should not be condemned to be healers.
No, no, no.
Engis right now are condemned to pointlessness... there is really no point to being in a pvp match as an engi... in fact when I see engis on a pug team I end up on I know its going to be a bad match... they are junk period.
They have also always been the games healer class... so ES being an engi skill is a good idea.
Engis right now are condemned to pointlessness... there is really no point to being in a pvp match as an engi... in fact when I see engis on a pug team I end up on I know its going to be a bad match... they are junk period.
They have also always been the games healer class... so ES being an engi skill is a good idea.
or swamping ES's and aceton field's places. ES could be a LTC and up skill, aceton a LT and up skill. i think the devs have said just shifting something like that would be impossible, but in this case its a swap, replace every instance of ES with aceton and vice versa.
or swamping ES's and aceton field's places. ES could be a LTC and up skill, aceton a LT and up skill. i think the devs have said just shifting something like that would be impossible, but in this case its a swap, replace every instance of ES with aceton and vice versa.
I like Aceton Beam 1, it's kinda fun on the ol' Heavy Escort Carrier. Shoot someone in the lips who' coming after you with it, or attacking you buddy, and if they don't pop Hazards immediately, they do so little damage you just manually distribute through it without even having EPtS up. Things get a hair dicier if they have torps, though, or simply aren't reliant on energy weapons for damage output/role (TBR+torps sci ship for example).
It'd probably be overpowered as a shockwave/nova type of power, probably, even more overpowered if it was an aura centered on your ship for a time.
I like Aceton Beam 1, it's kinda fun on the ol' Heavy Escort Carrier. Shoot someone in the lips who' coming after you with it, or attacking you buddy, and if they don't pop Hazards immediately, they do so little damage you just manually distribute through it without even having EPtS up. Things get a hair dicier if they have torps, though, or simply aren't reliant on energy weapons for damage output/role (TBR+torps sci ship for example).
It'd probably be overpowered as a shockwave/nova type of power, probably, even more overpowered if it was an aura centered on your ship for a time.
for that aceton idea from that other thread, that i think your referring too, im thinking only like a range of 5, and no more then 1 pulse a second regardless of incoming fire. this of course would be something that would need plenty of testing. i see it as a deterrent to escorts sitting directly behind you at point blank range, not even plasma is if they have APO and HE. its not even a don't shoot me at all power like FBP.
Comments
Working on your latest project, I presume:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-F_S3_GZriy0/T5ApPiONsJI/AAAAAAAAA04/iXHi_MQXW0s/s1600/6103110956_4311b2f8b1_z.jpg
:P
These changes will be wiped clean from the record by the time you log in.
maybe the *OMG it takes more then me facerolling my spacebar for 2sec to kill a cruiser attention span too short* should give more credit to the objections by those who think this was a bad implementation.
WB mini, how is MWO? wanna drop some tric mines there?
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
R.I.P
It wasn't just them, there was the "But I want to help my team mates" crowd as well, under that system you send an ES to a team mate then you get facerolled by 1 escort because if it... That's fair? That's balanced? No, neither of them are, that penalises those who help others to survive not encourage it (which is what the devs say they want to do)
If that where in fact the real reason they did it... well they would have left the RSP EPTS global in place...
No the flat out caved to the qq.
Sure he made some odd convoluted post about wanting to encourage sci heals... but if he wanted that he would have changed them more... I have no doubt that may have been part of it... really I think he knew full well that the ES change would remove the attractiveness of putting extends on escorts and sci ships... lets face it no one runs engi cruiser healers any more in real pvp... that is a major issue that this change would have helped change. Devs going back on this is spineless.
i guess i should have realized 200 pages of rant newbie qq outweighs one mans interpretation
It wasn't the qq that did it. The change was meant to discourage ES circle jerks, and make pugs have a better chance. It did the opposite. Real healers in a premade compensated easily, without a drop in effectiveness (or much of one) because of teamwork and the soloers and small group pvpers got smashed in the balls by everyone because they couldn't count on any or minimal crosshealing to cover the gaps. It had a backwards effect from what was intended.
A much better proposition is just to fix multiple procs of BFI doffs and Borg set. That severely weakens shield healing on most builds.
Nixus
I agree with all of this.
/signed
Please.
Before the changes when I was pugging, I was in a match where I outhealed both teams and did not get one ****ing heal from anyone in the entire match-didn't use shield doffs either. I healed everyone else in my team.
That's the TRIBBLE I expected on a routine basis and have mostly accepted as part of the norm.
That's why I leveled a Klingon healer, because I expected most pugs on that side to be Tacs or fail Scis.
I would have just ran an aux healing setup if the changes stayed.
Stupid pugs weren't going to get affected by these changes one bit.
They would still be useless ****s who don't care about helping anyone.
Yeah, these premade dudes who hated the changes were complaining for the sake of the poor little noob pugs like me.
ROTFL.
Husanak and Minimax were 100% on the money.
This would have given a swift kick in the TRIBBLE to those boring lolheal setups and made the game less of boring extend snooze fest.
I just wish they would nerf ES, bring back the old-new PSW with no teampower usage. And get rid of those god-doffs like the SDOs too.
i hope the intent behind this change lives on in the form of renewed balancing efforts
gg
Sorry you fly with ****ty pugs. Maybe you should get a decent team?
Most people qq'd because it was a terrible idea. It hurts premades, but it hurts puggers a whole, whole, whole lot more. After flying with the changes in full team in both random queues and in actual premade matches I can verify this with empirically. Full out healboats in a random would die in about 13 seconds. They would vaporize right after rsp came off.
It was a bad idea, and didn't address BFI and Borg multiprocs. Do that and tac team and no amount of healing can keep up with firing on a single shield facing.
But what do I know, I'm just a dedicated primary healer in one of the top pvp fleets. :rolleyes:
Nixus
whew...if you'd have said "But what do I know, I'm just a great primary healer in one of the top pvp fleets", I'd have called BS. good maybe, but it would have to be a good day
If I didn't play this game as infrequently and mostly for the lols, I'd try to play with people I know.
Most know better than to play this game and play other games instead.
I perfectly understand the gripe people had with the change.
But ultimately it doesn't affect most pugs who never even run ES, let alone TacTeam. I guess it may affect lone pug healers like me, but I'm the prime target against a premade anyway.
Dying 4 seconds earlier doesn't make a difference to me anyway.
I'm still getting subnuked and still not getting one heal my way.
No, the main people affected and the main complainants were the premades who have relied on the expectation of ES and RSP mitigation for so long, that they can't or won't do without it.
That's fine.
Just don't dress it up as a more general concern for the community.
I was ambivalent towards the EPtS/ES coupling... I predicted that strong teams wouldn't miss a beat and that they'd easily find other ways to cover the gap, and assuming zyphoid's account is true, then I was proven right.
A suggestion I've heard which I really liked was to make ES an Eng captain skill. You'd have a much more compelling reason to field some Engies in a team.
vids and guides and stuff
[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
a) It's just one power. Cool your jets there Maverick.
b) Two of the three possible roles (DPS, debuff/CC) have already been filled out. If you have some magical fourth option no one's yet considered, by all means tell us because you'll rightly revolutionize MMO design far beyond Star Trek Online.
vids and guides and stuff
[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
You'll have to excuse him, his first ship when he joined these threads was a tac/carrier he was trying to heal in. Now he's trying to get his engy to do damage...
Fixed that for you.
Lol...guess that's true. Biggest thing I remember about that train wreck build is his refusal to use EptS claiming ET1>EptS1. Now he's got a thread saying EptS needs to benerfed...lol
I actually suggested this to havam about a week ago in a discussion we were having about the usefulness of engies in pvp. I believe it was dontdrunk that suggested making MW and RSF useable on team mates as well. Replace nadion with extend3 and overnight the engy class would go from useless to a must have on the team. Also worth noting sophie is if you free up the BO slots where extend would have been, you open up slots to do more damage and cc with abilities like EWP and DEM (once they fix it). If they'd buff aceton somehow, that would give three high tier abilties to use in place of the ES that would be inherint to your class.
Engis right now are condemned to pointlessness... there is really no point to being in a pvp match as an engi... in fact when I see engis on a pug team I end up on I know its going to be a bad match... they are junk period.
They have also always been the games healer class... so ES being an engi skill is a good idea.
or swamping ES's and aceton field's places. ES could be a LTC and up skill, aceton a LT and up skill. i think the devs have said just shifting something like that would be impossible, but in this case its a swap, replace every instance of ES with aceton and vice versa.
I like Aceton Beam 1, it's kinda fun on the ol' Heavy Escort Carrier. Shoot someone in the lips who' coming after you with it, or attacking you buddy, and if they don't pop Hazards immediately, they do so little damage you just manually distribute through it without even having EPtS up. Things get a hair dicier if they have torps, though, or simply aren't reliant on energy weapons for damage output/role (TBR+torps sci ship for example).
It'd probably be overpowered as a shockwave/nova type of power, probably, even more overpowered if it was an aura centered on your ship for a time.
for that aceton idea from that other thread, that i think your referring too, im thinking only like a range of 5, and no more then 1 pulse a second regardless of incoming fire. this of course would be something that would need plenty of testing. i see it as a deterrent to escorts sitting directly behind you at point blank range, not even plasma is if they have APO and HE. its not even a don't shoot me at all power like FBP.