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Fed vs Klingon balance. Your Opinion?

kitsune1977kitsune1977 Member Posts: 77 Arc User
edited October 2012 in Federation Discussion
First the disclaimer. This is not a rant. This is statement of observations.

I have my own opinion about the balance issues between Federation and Klingon sides of the game. I am curious to know your opinion on the matter. Please post what you think and please no flaming people for how they feel.

My own experience is that Klingon's have the hands down advantage in PvP. Having played both I can say that my Klingon character and the advantages it has is far easier to get kills with than my Federation main. Way easier to survive when you can battle cloak not to mention the extra damage buff when coming out of cloak, granted only lasts 5 seconds but that is all it takes to destroy a ship when you have a decked out bird of prey. The biggest advantage that I have is the insane turn rate these things have. I am usually twice as fast (or feels like it anyway) as a Defiant in the turn rate. Add the evasive maneuvers and the slightest touch to my "steering wheel" and I just did a 180. It turns so fast I actually have a hard time keeping it on target when hitting evasive maneuvers is on. The only ship that has given me problems is the Jem Hadar attack ship. That thing is basically a fleet level ship.

Federation side I have 2 options for keeping up with the turn rate (not counting the Jem Hadar ship, that's available to both sides) Either load up a Defiant with RCS consoles and sacrifice survivability or use MVAM in Beta mode with an RCS console. Then I manage to barley keep up. Oh and yeah neither one can battle cloak.

Now I noticed that yes the Klingons lose a bridge officer slot for the battle cloak and the most weapons that a bird of prey at least can load is 4 for and 2 aft. Ok so I lose 1 turret in the back that is only doing minimal damage anyway and I think 2 skill slots. If you can just hide in plain sight you don't need them.

It just feels to me like I drop 10% effectiveness from standard but gain 80% advantage in combat if not more.

Oh and so you know where I come from I play tacs on both sides and fly escort or Bird of Prey with Escort build for Boff powers.

(Side note seems a common opinion of people that I have talked to in game say that Klingons get all the cool weapons and abilities so people will play them. Honestly it does feel that way to me.)

So let me know what you think.
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Post edited by kitsune1977 on
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Comments

  • khayuungkhayuung Member Posts: 1,876 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    The BoPs that I do manage to catch, either because they are in between cloaks or they appeared in the wrong spot or I somehow managed to detect them through cloak (it happens pretty often, might be a bug), blow up in 1 salvo.

    So you having a great time ducking and hiding while having 1 less boff slot and weapon slot, and miserable shields and hull, is not broken, its necessary. The Feds just have to learn to cope with that.


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  • edited October 2012
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  • notapwefannotapwefan Member Posts: 1,138 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    One of our bridge officer is a secret FED agent.
    What else do Feds need more?
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  • carcharodon1975carcharodon1975 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    First the disclaimer. This is not a rant. This is statement of observations.

    I have my own opinion about the balance issues between Federation and Klingon sides of the game. I am curious to know your opinion on the matter. Please post what you think and please no flaming people for how they feel.

    My own experience is that Klingon's have the hands down advantage in PvP. Having played both I can say that my Klingon character and the advantages it has is far easier to get kills with than my Federation main. Way easier to survive when you can battle cloak not to mention the extra damage buff when coming out of cloak, granted only lasts 5 seconds but that is all it takes to destroy a ship when you have a decked out bird of prey. The biggest advantage that I have is the insane turn rate these things have. I am usually twice as fast (or feels like it anyway) as a Defiant in the turn rate. Add the evasive maneuvers and the slightest touch to my "steering wheel" and I just did a 180. It turns so fast I actually have a hard time keeping it on target when hitting evasive maneuvers is on. The only ship that has given me problems is the Jem Hadar attack ship. That thing is basically a fleet level ship.

    Federation side I have 2 options for keeping up with the turn rate (not counting the Jem Hadar ship, that's available to both sides) Either load up a Defiant with RCS consoles and sacrifice survivability or use MVAM in Beta mode with an RCS console. Then I manage to barley keep up. Oh and yeah neither one can battle cloak.

    Now I noticed that yes the Klingons lose a bridge officer slot for the battle cloak and the most weapons that a bird of prey at least can load is 4 for and 2 aft. Ok so I lose 1 turret in the back that is only doing minimal damage anyway and I think 2 skill slots. If you can just hide in plain sight you don't need them.

    It just feels to me like I drop 10% effectiveness from standard but gain 80% advantage in combat if not more.

    Oh and so you know where I come from I play tacs on both sides and fly escort or Bird of Prey with Escort build for Boff powers.

    (Side note seems a common opinion of people that I have talked to in game say that Klingons get all the cool weapons and abilities so people will play them. Honestly it does feel that way to me.)

    So let me know what you think.

    I thought this thread was about "Fed vs Klingon balance" and not "Fed escort vs BoP balance"...

    You are comparing 2 different ship classes,a BoP isn't an escort.If you would compare the Defiant with a Raptor,that's a different story as both are escorts.The BoP is far from the IWIN ship you think it is,while it does have some advantages,it is one of the hardest ship classes to master.

    And faction balance.....between the C-store,the lock boxes,the fleet ships and all the "free" ships......there is no balance,it's heavily favored to the Fed side.
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  • gradstudent1gradstudent1 Member Posts: 633 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    First the disclaimer. This is not a rant. This is statement of observations.

    I have my own opinion about the balance issues between Federation and Klingon sides of the game. I am curious to know your opinion on the matter. Please post what you think and please no flaming people for how they feel.

    My own experience is that Klingon's have the hands down advantage in PvP. Having played both I can say that my Klingon character and the advantages it has is far easier to get kills with than my Federation main. Way easier to survive when you can battle cloak not to mention the extra damage buff when coming out of cloak, granted only lasts 5 seconds but that is all it takes to destroy a ship when you have a decked out bird of prey. The biggest advantage that I have is the insane turn rate these things have. I am usually twice as fast (or feels like it anyway) as a Defiant in the turn rate. Add the evasive maneuvers and the slightest touch to my "steering wheel" and I just did a 180. It turns so fast I actually have a hard time keeping it on target when hitting evasive maneuvers is on. The only ship that has given me problems is the Jem Hadar attack ship. That thing is basically a fleet level ship.

    Federation side I have 2 options for keeping up with the turn rate (not counting the Jem Hadar ship, that's available to both sides) Either load up a Defiant with RCS consoles and sacrifice survivability or use MVAM in Beta mode with an RCS console. Then I manage to barley keep up. Oh and yeah neither one can battle cloak.

    Now I noticed that yes the Klingons lose a bridge officer slot for the battle cloak and the most weapons that a bird of prey at least can load is 4 for and 2 aft. Ok so I lose 1 turret in the back that is only doing minimal damage anyway and I think 2 skill slots. If you can just hide in plain sight you don't need them.

    It just feels to me like I drop 10% effectiveness from standard but gain 80% advantage in combat if not more.

    Oh and so you know where I come from I play tacs on both sides and fly escort or Bird of Prey with Escort build for Boff powers.

    (Side note seems a common opinion of people that I have talked to in game say that Klingons get all the cool weapons and abilities so people will play them. Honestly it does feel that way to me.)

    So let me know what you think.

    Thanks, kitsune1977, for some interesting observations. In my experience, individual ship strengths and weaknesses are rarely ever the deciding factor in a PvP match. The deciding factor in almost all PvP is teamwork, coordination, and communication. This is possible to achieve, even in a PUG. One just needs somebody to step up and take leadership (call shots, share heals, etc.).

    Character build is also quite important of course.
  • bitemepwebitemepwe Member Posts: 6,760 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    The BoP is a one-trick pony with a surprise advantage regardless of how it is flown or what BOff configuration its uses.
    Its only purpose is to decloak and attack from surprise, iether alone or in a pack for better results.
    It is niether O.P or U.P, but falls right in line with its design as a Raider and has the handicaps needed to make it useful without being too easy.
    Its a thoroughbred ship and only responds well to those who have mastered it.

    I disagree with the premise that the KDF got all the cool toys though.
    It just seems more fun to play the KDF in a game designed around DPS, much like many say the Tac/Escort is the fun class to play on fed.
    As the warrior/warlike faction its more pronounced and fun in such a setting but do not discount the feds, they have many options to choose from and arguably the best vessels in the game for PvP and PvE.
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  • razellisrazellis Member Posts: 176 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Having flew both sides it seems like klinks have an advantage in PVP.

    Their carriers, carrier pets, cruisers and B.o.P's are more potent as a general rule damage wise. Fed's have some of the nicest ships in the game but with the exception of Raptors vs. escorts it feels like the klinks have the highest utility on each ship type(read do other things and damage). Part of the problem is some of the universal consoles are not at all balanced and the accuracy debuff and placate on the honor guard shield are powerful protections.

    P.S. I love my honor guard shield on teams filled with carriers and vicious battle-cruisers.
  • red01999red01999 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    I haven't done PvP involving Klingons, but I can say that it sure looks like the KDF has superior ships in most categories - possibly by a considerable margin. Their cruisers are quicker and have a lot better/more firepower (except the Bortas, which is admittedly even more of a slug than the Odyssey - which is an achievement in itself in a bizarre sort of way). This is not helped by the fact that it seems like whenever any goodie the KDF brushes against is permitted to the Feds in even limited form, it is immediately declared the one and only thing that the KDF has ever had and ever will have that has any appeal to new players whatsoever and the entire faction will spontaneously combust within an hour of the feature/item's Fed-side release.

    I will admit that the KDF has a severe deficiency in terms of science ships, but that doesn't seem to be a huge impediment, since it seems that most people use cruisers or escorts, anyway, and they definitely have better carriers (which are kinda-sorta science ships). That said, I do feel for the science fans on the KDF side, and hope that this is rectified in the future.

    I am aware that many cite the Federation's "non-militaristic" philosophy as a reason for slower, under-powered ships, but unfortunately in STO that just translates to "gross disadvantage," and really, after the Dominion, the Borg, the resurgance of the Klingons as foes in the Dominion war AND now, and the ever-constant threat of the Romulans, that the Federation would begin to realize that they can't pretend enemies don't exist and think that goodwill will make them go away.

    Then again, I could see the Federation being utterly incapable of learning, like so many RL governments. :rolleyes:
  • quiscustodietquiscustodiet Member Posts: 350
    edited October 2012
    Klingons do have the upper hand, but it's incidental: Power Siphon Drones.

    Carriers are the bane of PvP, but the Atrox slightly less so than the Kar'Fi & Vo'quv.
    The rest is fine.
  • xiphenonxiphenon Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    ** Weapons:
    Phaser vs. Disruptor ... (ok, Klingons can equip phasers too, but come on ... a real klingon always choose ... aahm, antiproton? ;))
    Fed > Klingons

    ** Ships:
    Escort vs. Raptors --> Feds win

    Battle Cruiser vs. "I'm Jean Luc Picard of the Enterprise"-Cruisers. --> Klingons win

    BoPs vs. ... nothing? --> Klingons win

    Shuttles vs. ... Yeah, some ugly things that fly --> Feds win

    Carrier vs. Carrier --> Feds = Klingons (I dont know what is more annyoing, to be permanently tractored or to be drained to death)

    C-Store Ships vs. C-Store Ships --> ... Wait ... ? Klingons have C-Store ships?

    ** Character Style
    1 billion options to dress your char vs. 1 fur jackets in 5 different colors --> Feds win.

    So, I think it is fairly balanced.
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  • whamhammer1whamhammer1 Member Posts: 2,290 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    The biggest balance problem in FvK is the lack of Fed' teamwork. Lemme give you a perfect example of this:

    Some Klingon B.O.P.'s did some hit and run in Kerrat. The Fed guys teamed with me complained about the "sneaky" Klingon's sneaking up on them and blowing them to bits. I offer to bring my Sci-Neb', to which they say yes to. I bring my Neb' in, go full aux and all of the nifty Neb' cloak spotting techniques and the guys immediately sprint away in separate directions from my ship (like more than 10k away). And the Klingons start gang-banging stragglers again. Even after I asked them to stay within a certain range of my ship, they never worked together.
  • bitemepwebitemepwe Member Posts: 6,760 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    razellis wrote: »
    Fed's have some of the nicest ships in the game but with the exception of Raptors vs. escorts it feels like the klinks have the highest utility on each ship type(read do other things and damage).

    Its a missconception brought on by the design differences of the factions.

    Federation Cruisers are designed, with small exception, to have high influence in Engineering and the Sciences (the thing that has saved the Enterprise more times than firepower) with a smattering of tactical

    Klingon battle Cruisers are designed to accent Engineering and Tactical (the bread and butter of the KDF) with a smattering of Science. In a fight, and STO is all about fighting, the KDF battle Cruiser is the better vessel.

    Federation Escorts are just flat out better than the KDF Raptors.

    Birds of Prey are thier own niche.

    Federation Science vessels are flat out better at using science.

    The sense of KDF utility is false as the only function the KDF vessel need do is apply damage and self heal, which is the failing of STO.

    When Science was not nerfed and the Science abilities function better, many found the Cruiser and the Science vessel more than adequate for STO and its only after the focus of STO having moved to just survival and DPS, that the KDF suddenly seems better.
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  • mentalwrackmentalwrack Member Posts: 4 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    First of all, OP, I think you went a little off-topic yourself by making this a "fedscort vs BoP" discussion, there's a lot more to balance than just those 2 types of ships! But when you look at the factions, it's quite obvious Klingons have the advantage in PvP balance.

    Most obviously, the cloaking device standard on most Klingon ships is a huge tactical advantage. Then you look at turn rate, arguably the most important factor for PvP success, and Klingon ships blow away their Federation competition. And then of course, you see the the ubiquitous Plasmonic Leech console, power siphon drones, aceton assimilators... Klingons have a decided advantage, most people who play both factions agree on that.

    A lot of people try to give a canon-based explanation, but that's irrelevant to STO. red01999 put it nicely: "I am aware that many cite the Federation's "non-militaristic" philosophy as a reason for slower, under-powered ships, but unfortunately in STO that just translates to 'gross disadvantage'". It's sad that the developers gave the KDF such little PvE content that they felt they needed advantages in PvP - it doesn't make sense to give one faction an advantage over the other.

    Ultimately I think part of the balance problem between the factions is the game is all about tactical spike DPS, with which the KDF has the advantage. The Fed's advantage in science or engineering isn't worth much. If science or engineering were more competetive, then maybe we'd see better balance between the factions too! Here's hoping season 7 brings some nice changes.
  • kitsune1977kitsune1977 Member Posts: 77 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Not so much off topic rather than that is the only direct experience that I have. I encourage you guys to post your own examples of things other than bop vs escort. The only reason I didn't go more into it with the other classes is that I don't feel that I have enough experience with them to be able to say one way or another about those classes.

    And to poster above. I see your point and agree with you on it.
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  • age03age03 Member Posts: 1,664 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    I would say when it come to tactical they are both tied,Science Fed wins and criusers Klinks win.
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  • whamhammer1whamhammer1 Member Posts: 2,290 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    age03 wrote: »
    I would say when it come to tactical they are both tied,Science Fed wins and criusers Klinks win.

    But Klingons wont win the cruiser portion by that much, especially with the Excel and the Regent in the mix.
  • paragon92518paragon92518 Member Posts: 268
    edited October 2012
    I have my own opinion about the balance issues between Federation and Klingon sides of the game. I am curious to know your opinion on the matter. Please post what you think and please no flaming people for how they feel.

    It's the equivalent of a Model-T vs. a Dodge Viper in terms of maneuverability. Period.
  • insanerandomnesinsanerandomnes Member Posts: 228 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    I'll second the motion that the KDF gets most of the cool toys. HOWEVER, that gap is getting increasingly smaller with ships such as the heavy escort carrier, atrox, and now the lockbox consoles.

    That said, as far as KDF goes, when it comes too DPS, they are still easily king. The feds, with all their cruisers, are meant too tank, and they do so very very well.
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  • hereticknight085hereticknight085 Member Posts: 3,783 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    But Klingons wont win the cruiser portion by that much, especially with the Excel and the Regent in the mix.

    Fleet Tor'Kaht. WHERE IS YOUR GOD NOW.
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  • flekhflekh Member Posts: 233 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Fleet Tor'Kaht. WHERE IS YOUR GOD NOW.

    Hahaha.
    PvP is the only context that one doesn't get the default-win in an argument. :P
    In PvP, what counts are the healing abilities and tanking, and that one goes to the Ody over the Bortasqu', even if just by a bit.
    While the Fleet Tor'Kaht is "just" an overpowered but slightly sluggy raptor in this context. Not bad, but ... *cough* Armitage *cough*.

    In most other regards, I'll just agree with xiphenon, his list is pretty accurate.

    'Might add though:
    PUG vs. PUG: KDF wins, hands down.
    Casual PvP vs. Casual PvP: KDF has a slight advantage.
    PvP Fleet vs PvP Fleet: Feds are too tanky and can outheal pretty much every alpha, while the KDF lives in fear of the day the first Fleet Defiants are available - so they're already crying a bit in advance.
    What level are you going to balance for?
  • hereticknight085hereticknight085 Member Posts: 3,783 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    You spelled cough wrong. XD
    It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once. B)
  • bitemepwebitemepwe Member Posts: 6,760 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    flekh wrote: »
    the KDF lives in fear of the day the first Fleet Defiants are available - so they're already crying a bit in advance.
    Followed closely by the Fed cry of " The Defiant needs a battle Cloak" threads.
    Some things can always be counted on like clock-work.


    What level are you going to balance for?
    None. I think the fed versus KDF differences are good and mostly balanced.
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  • whamhammer1whamhammer1 Member Posts: 2,290 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    bitemepwe wrote: »
    Followed closely by the Fed cry of " The Defiant needs a battle Cloak" threads.
    Some things can always be counted on like clock-work.

    That's no totally true. I've been arguing for the battle cloaking tier 5 Oberth with a phaser lance and 49k hull with commander universal Boff :D
  • flekhflekh Member Posts: 233 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    bitemepwe wrote: »

    That's no totally true. I've been arguing for the battle cloaking tier 5 Oberth with a phaser lance and 49k hull with commander universal Boff :D

    That's not the part you got flak for. But the 2.5 shield modifier really was too much! :P
  • hereticknight085hereticknight085 Member Posts: 3,783 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    FLEET TOR'KAHT RETROFIT!!! TELL ME HUMAN. WHERE IS YOUR GOD NOW!!

    But in all honesty I am inclined to agree. Feds may complain that their cruisers can't turn worth a damn, which is true, but they can heal like bosses. On steroids. I have dumped all my power into shields and aux on my Oddy once (TAC oddy mind you, after I say what happened, I will be scared to see what happens with a sci oddy), and just sat and tanked a gateway out of boredom whilst my team tried to kill transformers (yeah I know, not helping my team, but we were shafted anyways, lost the op, and had two leavers, and it was an ISE, so we couldn't lose), and I basically just cycled heals and buffs. It was crazy how long I was able to take the full power of the gate (basically til I got bored and forgot to hit a heal). And that was just by myself. I am sure if I had a sci or another cruiser cross healing me, I would have been able to stay there all month and never die.

    KDF got a little slapped when it came to sci, but they are the KDF. Sci doesn't mean a whole lot to them via canon, so they got shafted there. But they make up for it with insanely good combat ability (probably why a lot of feds are crying for a defiant battle cloak. Little wusses.) and amazing crui... erm BATTLEcruisers that can dish out pain and take it with almost no craps given.

    And for the record, there is absolutely nothing wrong with a 2.5 shield modifier. As long as said player is restricted from being able to put anything on there better than a mk II standard shield array. XD
    It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once. B)
  • cliftona91cliftona91 Member Posts: 254
    edited October 2012
    Bop's dont have that big of an advantage. The Battle Cloak isn't a "Get out of Jail Free" card. As mentioned, if you cloak at the wrong time....pop.....game over for the Bop. The trick with that class of ships is knowing when to cloak and learning to not use it as an Escort....and have equipment ready to get the hell out of dodge (Impulse Burst, Engine Battery's, Deutrium Surplus, Evasive Manuvers).

    As for the other ship categories, the KDF got shafted when it came to Escorts. The Qin Raptor turns on its TRIBBLE, so its more difficult to get its nose pointing in the right direction. The Best Escorts the KDF has in my opinion are the Fleet Somraw and Fleet Scourge....and those are Fleet ships and cost $20 for Fleet Modules (And NO discount for having the lower tier ship for the Scourge). Not to mention NONE of the KDF Fleet Escorts has five Tac consoles (And I saw Fleet Tactical Escorts out and they are beasts to face in a fight).

    Cruisers vs. Battlecruisers, yes the KDF has the edge....in turn rating and Damage capabilities. But when it comes to taking hits, the Fed Cruisers have the better endurance. The Fleet Tor'kaht had to sacrifice Engineering Boff Slots for its Tactical abilities.

    And Science? What Science? All the KDF got was the ever versatile Bop's, the Vo'quv (and that ain't a true Science Ship), and Gorn Vessels you have to purchase with Zen. The KDF got shafted when it came to Science (then again, the Empire didn't rely on science as much as Starfleet, never saw General Martok diverting power to the Graviton Array)
  • kitsune1977kitsune1977 Member Posts: 77 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    I know personally that I would like to see at least one ship on fed side with a battle cloak. It never made any sense to me anyway why a ship that can cloak can't use in combat anyway. KDF has several ships that can't cloak but all the Klingon made ones can. Never understood why the BOP was the only one that was allowed to hit the switch in combat.
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  • shimmerlessshimmerless Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Whenever I get into the BoP I find it absolutely baffling that I don't die as much as I should. The Heghie's base hull is so low that you put me in an escort on the other side and I'll one-shot BO crit it out the sky faster than it can say, "there's Feds on the starboard bow".

    If I decloak and kill someone (or sadly too often, fail to kill someone) there is zero reason I should be able to live to tell the tale. I should be dead in the next five seconds, max. And yet Feds in the public queues simply cannot put out the barest minimum amount of hurt, it's mind-boggling.
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  • weylandjuarezweylandjuarez Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    I will be scared to see what happens with a sci oddy), and just sat and tanked a gateway out of boredom whilst my team tried to kill transformers (yeah I know, not helping my team, but we were shafted anyways, lost the op, and had two leavers, and it was an ISE, so we couldn't lose), and I basically just cycled heals and buffs. It was crazy how long I was able to take the full power of the gate (basically til I got bored and forgot to hit a heal). And that was just by myself. I am sure if I had a sci or another cruiser cross healing me, I would have been able to stay there all month and never die.

    It's true - the Fed cruisers can take an ungodly amount of punishment - I've soloed a gate on Elite STFs with my Tac/Excelsior and whilst it wasn't exactly easy (downright fraught at times), that Commander Boff station plus some shield batteries saved my TRIBBLE.

    I've tried it with my Klink Eng in a Vor'Cha and it's a lot harder - primarily 'cause it takes so much longer to take the gate down.

    Fed cruisers are the Chuck Norris of STO :)
    Whenever I get into the BoP I find it absolutely baffling that I don't die as much as I should. The Heghie's base hull is so low that you put me in an escort on the other side and I'll one-shot BO crit it out the sky faster than it can say, "there's Feds on the starboard bow".

    Eng in a B'rel is a helluva lot of fun to play - toughens that bird right up - mine has 12k shield facings and 40% hull resists - damn thing's made out of adamantium :D
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  • hereticknight085hereticknight085 Member Posts: 3,783 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Fed cruisers are the Chuck Norris of STO :)

    Only when it comes to taking hits. We can't exactly round-house kick anything nearly as hard as a tac/escort can.

    And in all honesty, the gates and tac cubes don't have anything remotely resembling sustained damage. They just do random high spikes.
    It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once. B)
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