Why is it that in general Feds just suck at PvP compared to KDF players? I love my Fleet Defiant, but dammit, it's just not fun getting owned 80% of the time in one-sided blowouts. I was just in a match with 3 cruisers and another Defiant for team mates. At the beginning I asked the cruisers to please team heal if they see someone getting focused on or if someone is damaged. For the entire match, I was the only one to ever throw out any team heals, and at the end of the match I asked why they never team healed. The one answer I got was I should stop whining and fly a healing cruiser if I want heals. I regularly have 3-5 times as much damage as the next highest person on my team, and I'm really not very good at all. I don't understand how none of my team mates can even get above 50k damage and still not throw out any team heals at all. What exactly is their thought process that leads them to think team healing is not necessary and that if you want heals you should fly a cruiser. It's just very frustrating to fly PUGs on the Fed side to where I hardly get to fly my Defiant at all simply because I know I can log onto my KDF character and have team mates that actually know how to play.
TBH, in pugging - it's best to set your expectations low. Even if you expect your teammates to be able to find their way out of the starting areas...well, at some point you're going to feel let down.
TBHT, I haven't really noticed much of a difference in that whether flying Fed or KDF.
TBH, in pugging - it's best to set your expectations low. Even if you expect your teammates to be able to find their way out of the starting areas...well, at some point you're going to feel let down.
TBHT, I haven't really noticed much of a difference in that whether flying Fed or KDF.
There are a number of reasons which cause Fed pugs to suck so bad.
1 - The majority of players are fans of the show and it's highley likely the cruiser is their fave type of ship. So they fly it. The problem is that in STO, Fed cruisers suck at DPS compared to escorts and you'll sometimes need more then one escort to crack even an escorts shields. Cruisers? Ha, not a chance.
2 - Tanking in PvE is ridiculously easy, even on elite difficulty. As such new players will rarely ever develop the tanking/healing that is required in PvP. Some don't even know what tac team does, which is like the must have tanking skill for PvP.
3 - Similar to point 2, NPCs generally don't tank, meaning poor unoptimized builds will have little trouble handling them. Heck even a VA in a T2 cruiser can take out VA NPCs, with no buffs.
4 - Similar to point 1, KDF players will generally pick their fave ship from the show which is mostly the Bird of Prey or the Vorcha. So on one side you've got people flying badly setup non-damage "tanks" that need a number of buffs to make work, while on the otherside you got battle cloakable alpha striking ships anyone with half a brain can fly. It's tickle beam arrays vs death dealing dual heavy cannons. In the end this results in inoffensive sitting duck targets that new players can blow up with ease.
5 - Point 4 pretty much means that average Fed pugs instantly have their backs against the wall when klinks decloak. Their thinking is "omg omg omg I'm gonna blow up" saving their meager heals for themselves (or are too focused on trying to do damage with their poor setups). Meanwhile the average klink pug has very little to worry about and as such they're calm and have plenty of heals to spare.
While the KDF does have overall better pugs then fed side, this isn't the only reason they win so much. A large portion is that the KDF simply matches peoples expectations when it comes to Star Trek. Certainly there are a lot of bad klink pugs out there, it's just the ship they're flying matches their focus.
most players want to fly fed cruisers and deal damage in cruiser, thats why they are playing. there was only 1 escort ever, everything else was some type of cruiser after all. only the excelsior, dkora, galor, kinda but not really the regent can deal damage the way they want them to deal damage. on the other hand on the kdf side even a vorcha R can out damage all of those, a negvar could too, but why would you ever fly one of those.
since bops are really bad at sustained heavy damage dealing, and raptors are very limited in variate and the main one is very bad at being an escort, kirking it up in vorcha R, F ktinga and F vorcha is extreamly effective in pugs. they have nearly the same survivability as fed cruisers, and nearly the burst firepower for escorts. so your average kdf puger is going to do better then your average fed puger.
if the average fed was just a beter player, the kdf would get rolled all the time. thier cruisers are better at doing a cruisers job, their escorts are better at doing an escorts job, they have sci ships at all. kdf cruisers have to do the lion share of healing and damage, sacrificing both to do both, the qin cant engage directly with fed escorts very well at all, the bop cant really do the setup for a kill that a fed sci can, its more about getting the kill itself wile trying not to get wiped out, its all terribly unoptimized.
but thats why it works better in pugs, you can do anything in a battle cruiser and bop and it will work much better then trying to do anything in any fed ship other then what they specialize in.
There are a number of reasons which cause Fed pugs to suck so bad.
1 - The majority of players are fans of the show and it's highley likely the cruiser is their fave type of ship. So they fly it. The problem is that in STO, Fed cruisers suck at DPS compared to escorts and you'll sometimes need more then one escort to crack even an escorts shields. Cruisers? Ha, not a chance.
2 - Tanking in PvE is ridiculously easy, even on elite difficulty. As such new players will rarely ever develop the tanking/healing that is required in PvP. Some don't even know what tac team does, which is like the must have tanking skill for PvP.
3 - Similar to point 2, NPCs generally don't tank, meaning poor unoptimized builds will have little trouble handling them. Heck even a VA in a T2 cruiser can take out VA NPCs, with no buffs.
4 - Similar to point 1, KDF players will generally pick their fave ship from the show which is mostly the Bird of Prey or the Vorcha. So on one side you've got people flying badly setup non-damage "tanks" that need a number of buffs to make work, while on the otherside you got battle cloakable alpha striking ships anyone with half a brain can fly. It's tickle beam arrays vs death dealing dual heavy cannons. In the end this results in inoffensive sitting duck targets that new players can blow up with ease.
5 - Point 4 pretty much means that average Fed pugs instantly have their backs against the wall when klinks decloak. Their thinking is "omg omg omg I'm gonna blow up" saving their meager heals for themselves (or are too focused on trying to do damage with their poor setups). Meanwhile the average klink pug has very little to worry about and as such they're calm and have plenty of heals to spare.
While the KDF does have overall better pugs then fed side, this isn't the only reason they win so much. A large portion is that the KDF simply matches peoples expectations when it comes to Star Trek. Certainly there are a lot of bad klink pugs out there, it's just the ship they're flying matches their focus.
1: A proper built cruiser tac wise anyway can and will burn down an Escort, sometimes inside out. Also in a Team setting, you're easily going to be able to roast people.
2: true
3: also true
4: Anyone can huh? Really? I take it you don't actually play with either ship.
5: More like the average Klink player mentality is, "I'm going to go murder someone" while the average fed is "I AM JIM KIRK OMG NOOO MY **** MY **** " The average fed, is an rping face roll hero. the average KDF or rather Old Average KDF is a hardened pvper. I can't say much for brand new KDF, since they not only have pve missions.. but every mission has had ban fanfiction style writing and excecution along with forced RP Elements, which is bound to attract more Alexanders.
Do you think that has more to do with the players or the ships? For instance, if the same players theoretically faced off against themselves in a 5v5 premade Fed vs. KDF, which side would win (no lockbox ships)?
Do you think that has more to do with the players or the ships? For instance, if the same players theoretically faced off against themselves in a 5v5 premade Fed vs. KDF, which side would win (no lockbox ships)?
Combination of higher Skilled Fed Team Players, picking the out and out superior ships to the KDF toys, and the KDF having weaker toys really.
It's not really a one or other thing.
Feds have a great many horrible players. But they also have The Best Players, because the ships are better. And we min maxers tend to gravitate towards the more powerful toys.
Do you think that has more to do with the players or the ships? For instance, if the same players theoretically faced off against themselves in a 5v5 premade Fed vs. KDF, which side would win (no lockbox ships)?
its definitely the ships, a lot of good players have characters on both sides, the difference is the ships. like i said in my first post, the fed ships can be min maxed into their role better, the kdf cant specialize as well and favor flexibility, tactics and timing. but superior raw damage, superior raw debuffing and superior raw healing just works better
to me it means specializing as hard as possible in 1 or a few common things and making them as potent as possible, not being a jack of all trades that is generally infective at everything
Klingons need to make QEW Part 2 to put back order into PvP again.
But then I would have to single handedly destroy them again.
I almost always PUG it for a challenge and it is extremely rare for pugs to heal. Most have very bad setups or setups designed to self protect and nothing else not to mention using the wrong powers at the wrong time.
NERF CANNONS - THEY NEED A 50% NERF
CRUISERS NEED A 206% HULL BUFF
Most new cruiser players have no idea there
Role I'n this game is to be avTac players wet nurse
And diaper changer
They think there I'n command of a battleship
Or bad TRIBBLE cruiser. It's not until they reach level 50 most
Find out the terrible truth about there ship
And character.it's very hard to finally realize
You can't compete because you made the wrong choice
I'n character and ship class.
I really don't blame them one bit for their selfish
Builds lack of team healing skills.
STO is the blame not the new players
They should make a dedicated repair class
And character class that is well defined I'n character
Creation , then you would have dedicated repair
Captions I'n dedicated ships
Cruisers and battleships should assume the role
They have always had throughout time.
Don't blame the players blame STO
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
Why is it that in general Feds just suck at PvP compared to KDF players? I love my Fleet Defiant, but dammit, it's just not fun getting owned 80% of the time in one-sided blowouts. I was just in a match with 3 cruisers and another Defiant for team mates. At the beginning I asked the cruisers to please team heal if they see someone getting focused on or if someone is damaged. For the entire match, I was the only one to ever throw out any team heals, and at the end of the match I asked why they never team healed. The one answer I got was I should stop whining and fly a healing cruiser if I want heals. I regularly have 3-5 times as much damage as the next highest person on my team, and I'm really not very good at all. I don't understand how none of my team mates can even get above 50k damage and still not throw out any team heals at all. What exactly is their thought process that leads them to think team healing is not necessary and that if you want heals you should fly a cruiser. It's just very frustrating to fly PUGs on the Fed side to where I hardly get to fly my Defiant at all simply because I know I can log onto my KDF character and have team mates that actually know how to play.
/rant
Same reason people call foul when you spam them to death with simply high-low mix-ups in fighting games. They are completely wound up in their own preconceptions of what the game is and have no interest in learning what the rules of the game really are.
its definitely the ships, a lot of good players have characters on both sides, the difference is the ships.
It's really not the ships. The best ships in the game are cross-faction. Recluse is the best healer, Bugship is the best escort, and the temporal science ships are the best science vessels. On top of everything the KDF still has access to some very powerful toys that the federation doesn't.
SP's Klingon fleet used to be just as good, if not better, than our Fed fleet. The only reason we don't field our Klingon's anymore is because nobody feels like grinding all of this per-character bull**** on more than one or two toons.
Here's the truth: The best players in the game gravitate towards playing federation because a good KDF premade will empty out the FvK queues after a couple of matches, and Klingons don't queue for KvK for whatever reason. If you want to make a premade and you want to actually play the game without waiting hours between matches, you fly Fed side.
It's really not the ships. The best ships in the game are cross-faction. Recluse is the best healer, Bugship is the best escort, and the temporal science ships are the best science vessels. On top of everything the KDF still has access to some very powerful toys that the federation doesn't.
SP's Klingon fleet used to be just as good, if not better, than our Fed fleet. The only reason we don't field our Klingon's anymore is because nobody feels like grinding all of this per-character bull**** on more than one or two toons.
Here's the truth: The best players in the game gravitate towards playing federation because a good KDF premade will empty out the FvK queues after a couple of matches, and Klingons don't queue for KvK for whatever reason. If you want to make a premade and you want to actually play the game without waiting hours between matches, you fly Fed side.
klink premades don't do it much cause, of what happened pre season 2.
Hour long matches, without a shot fired.
Thanks stardagger. You worthless sack of rp TRIBBLE
Rather that used to be the reason. Now it's cause frankly there's not much K left period to fill 2 sides of a que on a given night.
I don't understand, i've started doing FvK as a bit of a change, until then i'd steered clear of the Klinks are they were always really good. But recently they seem worse then fed pugs. Maybe it's the people I play with, maybe it's the times I play? They're carriers seems squishy, they're BOPs are too stupid to act like bops and insist on staying still even when 3 people are coming down on them, and the raptors seem to pack a punch.
I want moar klinks! The stereotype isn't living up to itself for me.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] @Aquitaine985 Lag Industries STO PvP Fleet - Executive
A Sad Panda of Industrial calibre. 2010: This is Cryptic PvP. Please hold the line, your call is very important to us...
It's really not the ships. The best ships in the game are cross-faction. Recluse is the best healer, Bugship is the best escort, and the temporal science ships are the best science vessels. On top of everything the KDF still has access to some very powerful toys that the federation doesn't.
SP's Klingon fleet used to be just as good, if not better, than our Fed fleet. The only reason we don't field our Klingon's anymore is because nobody feels like grinding all of this per-character bull**** on more than one or two toons.
Here's the truth: The best players in the game gravitate towards playing federation because a good KDF premade will empty out the FvK queues after a couple of matches, and Klingons don't queue for KvK for whatever reason. If you want to make a premade and you want to actually play the game without waiting hours between matches, you fly Fed side.
i knew i should have qualified that with 'not counting the lockbox ships, that are the best'. the kdf do have tactics they can exploit, not counting broken TRIBBLE siphon drones, to a devastating degree, but it can be hard to catch fed teams of equal skill flat footed. back when there was a SP kdf team, i bet science worked a lot better too. with how close the margins are for a kill or not, the minor advantage nearly all fed ships have does seem to make the difference during the healing deadlocks. again, not counting when the lockbox ships are running the show
Why is it that in general Feds just suck at PvP compared to KDF players? I love my Fleet Defiant, but dammit, it's just not fun getting owned 80% of the time in one-sided blowouts. I was just in a match with 3 cruisers and another Defiant for team mates. At the beginning I asked the cruisers to please team heal if they see someone getting focused on or if someone is damaged. For the entire match, I was the only one to ever throw out any team heals, and at the end of the match I asked why they never team healed. The one answer I got was I should stop whining and fly a healing cruiser if I want heals. I regularly have 3-5 times as much damage as the next highest person on my team, and I'm really not very good at all. I don't understand how none of my team mates can even get above 50k damage and still not throw out any team heals at all. What exactly is their thought process that leads them to think team healing is not necessary and that if you want heals you should fly a cruiser. It's just very frustrating to fly PUGs on the Fed side to where I hardly get to fly my Defiant at all simply because I know I can log onto my KDF character and have team mates that actually know how to play.
If only all of these 'awesome' Klingon players could for the life of them put together a half decent premade. Yeah, I went there.
if you build it they will come. i dont have to to tell the kdf players out there, they know, few and far between are the hardcore kdf types.
if you magically took all the best kdf players over sto lifespan and logged them on, i reckon i could bring a good fight to tsi, pandas, or whoevers left out there.
and we could do it the hard way, with less margin for error, relying on player skills rather than op configs.
like you know, one shot trico thru rsp:-)
ill keep my eyes peeled, but i doubt the kdf in this game will ever return to its former glory circa 2010 2011
back to dfa'in atlai, gg yalls have a big pvp for mm
Comments
TBHT, I haven't really noticed much of a difference in that whether flying Fed or KDF.
R.I.P
That's because you can count how many klinks on two hands provided you have ten fingers :P
Half the feds queue fvk are only in it for the dilth.
Pretty Much This
This
and this
3... win or lose... profit!
I'm not a fan of the shiny sticker reward system that many games have.
1 - The majority of players are fans of the show and it's highley likely the cruiser is their fave type of ship. So they fly it. The problem is that in STO, Fed cruisers suck at DPS compared to escorts and you'll sometimes need more then one escort to crack even an escorts shields. Cruisers? Ha, not a chance.
2 - Tanking in PvE is ridiculously easy, even on elite difficulty. As such new players will rarely ever develop the tanking/healing that is required in PvP. Some don't even know what tac team does, which is like the must have tanking skill for PvP.
3 - Similar to point 2, NPCs generally don't tank, meaning poor unoptimized builds will have little trouble handling them. Heck even a VA in a T2 cruiser can take out VA NPCs, with no buffs.
4 - Similar to point 1, KDF players will generally pick their fave ship from the show which is mostly the Bird of Prey or the Vorcha. So on one side you've got people flying badly setup non-damage "tanks" that need a number of buffs to make work, while on the otherside you got battle cloakable alpha striking ships anyone with half a brain can fly. It's tickle beam arrays vs death dealing dual heavy cannons. In the end this results in inoffensive sitting duck targets that new players can blow up with ease.
5 - Point 4 pretty much means that average Fed pugs instantly have their backs against the wall when klinks decloak. Their thinking is "omg omg omg I'm gonna blow up" saving their meager heals for themselves (or are too focused on trying to do damage with their poor setups). Meanwhile the average klink pug has very little to worry about and as such they're calm and have plenty of heals to spare.
While the KDF does have overall better pugs then fed side, this isn't the only reason they win so much. A large portion is that the KDF simply matches peoples expectations when it comes to Star Trek. Certainly there are a lot of bad klink pugs out there, it's just the ship they're flying matches their focus.
Daizen - Lvl 60 Tactical - Eclipse
Selia - Lvl 60 Tactical - Eclipse
since bops are really bad at sustained heavy damage dealing, and raptors are very limited in variate and the main one is very bad at being an escort, kirking it up in vorcha R, F ktinga and F vorcha is extreamly effective in pugs. they have nearly the same survivability as fed cruisers, and nearly the burst firepower for escorts. so your average kdf puger is going to do better then your average fed puger.
if the average fed was just a beter player, the kdf would get rolled all the time. thier cruisers are better at doing a cruisers job, their escorts are better at doing an escorts job, they have sci ships at all. kdf cruisers have to do the lion share of healing and damage, sacrificing both to do both, the qin cant engage directly with fed escorts very well at all, the bop cant really do the setup for a kill that a fed sci can, its more about getting the kill itself wile trying not to get wiped out, its all terribly unoptimized.
but thats why it works better in pugs, you can do anything in a battle cruiser and bop and it will work much better then trying to do anything in any fed ship other then what they specialize in.
Rightfully so. Just a bunch of good players pugging it.
1: A proper built cruiser tac wise anyway can and will burn down an Escort, sometimes inside out. Also in a Team setting, you're easily going to be able to roast people.
2: true
3: also true
4: Anyone can huh? Really? I take it you don't actually play with either ship.
5: More like the average Klink player mentality is, "I'm going to go murder someone" while the average fed is "I AM JIM KIRK OMG NOOO MY **** MY **** " The average fed, is an rping face roll hero. the average KDF or rather Old Average KDF is a hardened pvper. I can't say much for brand new KDF, since they not only have pve missions.. but every mission has had ban fanfiction style writing and excecution along with forced RP Elements, which is bound to attract more Alexanders.
This game ain't worth getting a Premade together over anymore, I'm afraid.
KDF is far outclassed in premade matches
Do you think that has more to do with the players or the ships? For instance, if the same players theoretically faced off against themselves in a 5v5 premade Fed vs. KDF, which side would win (no lockbox ships)?
@DevolvedOne
Combination of higher Skilled Fed Team Players, picking the out and out superior ships to the KDF toys, and the KDF having weaker toys really.
It's not really a one or other thing.
Feds have a great many horrible players. But they also have The Best Players, because the ships are better. And we min maxers tend to gravitate towards the more powerful toys.
@DevolvedOne
Someone that will Minimize Weakness, Maximize Advantages.
its definitely the ships, a lot of good players have characters on both sides, the difference is the ships. like i said in my first post, the fed ships can be min maxed into their role better, the kdf cant specialize as well and favor flexibility, tactics and timing. but superior raw damage, superior raw debuffing and superior raw healing just works better
to me it means specializing as hard as possible in 1 or a few common things and making them as potent as possible, not being a jack of all trades that is generally infective at everything
But then I would have to single handedly destroy them again.
I almost always PUG it for a challenge and it is extremely rare for pugs to heal. Most have very bad setups or setups designed to self protect and nothing else not to mention using the wrong powers at the wrong time.
CRUISERS NEED A 206% HULL BUFF
laff /10char
Role I'n this game is to be avTac players wet nurse
And diaper changer
They think there I'n command of a battleship
Or bad TRIBBLE cruiser. It's not until they reach level 50 most
Find out the terrible truth about there ship
And character.it's very hard to finally realize
You can't compete because you made the wrong choice
I'n character and ship class.
I really don't blame them one bit for their selfish
Builds lack of team healing skills.
STO is the blame not the new players
They should make a dedicated repair class
And character class that is well defined I'n character
Creation , then you would have dedicated repair
Captions I'n dedicated ships
Cruisers and battleships should assume the role
They have always had throughout time.
Don't blame the players blame STO
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
@DevolvedOne
Same reason people call foul when you spam them to death with simply high-low mix-ups in fighting games. They are completely wound up in their own preconceptions of what the game is and have no interest in learning what the rules of the game really are.
It's really not the ships. The best ships in the game are cross-faction. Recluse is the best healer, Bugship is the best escort, and the temporal science ships are the best science vessels. On top of everything the KDF still has access to some very powerful toys that the federation doesn't.
SP's Klingon fleet used to be just as good, if not better, than our Fed fleet. The only reason we don't field our Klingon's anymore is because nobody feels like grinding all of this per-character bull**** on more than one or two toons.
Here's the truth: The best players in the game gravitate towards playing federation because a good KDF premade will empty out the FvK queues after a couple of matches, and Klingons don't queue for KvK for whatever reason. If you want to make a premade and you want to actually play the game without waiting hours between matches, you fly Fed side.
klink premades don't do it much cause, of what happened pre season 2.
Hour long matches, without a shot fired.
Thanks stardagger. You worthless sack of rp TRIBBLE
Rather that used to be the reason. Now it's cause frankly there's not much K left period to fill 2 sides of a que on a given night.
I want moar klinks! The stereotype isn't living up to itself for me.
@Aquitaine985
Lag Industries STO PvP Fleet - Executive
A Sad Panda of Industrial calibre.
2010: This is Cryptic PvP. Please hold the line, your call is very important to us...
i knew i should have qualified that with 'not counting the lockbox ships, that are the best'. the kdf do have tactics they can exploit, not counting broken TRIBBLE siphon drones, to a devastating degree, but it can be hard to catch fed teams of equal skill flat footed. back when there was a SP kdf team, i bet science worked a lot better too. with how close the margins are for a kill or not, the minor advantage nearly all fed ships have does seem to make the difference during the healing deadlocks. again, not counting when the lockbox ships are running the show
One reason for this = K.I.R.K
if you build it they will come. i dont have to to tell the kdf players out there, they know, few and far between are the hardcore kdf types.
if you magically took all the best kdf players over sto lifespan and logged them on, i reckon i could bring a good fight to tsi, pandas, or whoevers left out there.
and we could do it the hard way, with less margin for error, relying on player skills rather than op configs.
like you know, one shot trico thru rsp:-)
ill keep my eyes peeled, but i doubt the kdf in this game will ever return to its former glory circa 2010 2011
back to dfa'in atlai, gg yalls have a big pvp for mm