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Player traits

sophlogimosophlogimo Member Posts: 6,507 Arc User
edited October 2012 in PvP Gameplay
What do you guys think - how large is the influence of space traits on a space or ground battle? Obviously, everything else being equal, the selection of the space traits will tip the balance - but by how much? Will a team with 4 space traits each always defeat a team with no space traits, in a space battle? How about teams with 3 ground and 1 space trait vs 4 space trait-teams?
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  • captkirrahecaptkirrahe Member Posts: 117 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    I'm sure the bonus to defence and the accuracy trait will make a difference in the long run.
    Result changing?
    I don't know, but it probably would be easier to have the Ground and Space traits equally available. Like 4 Each? That way a ground based character does not lose as much space potential and vice-versa. imo
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Your Ramming Speed III deals 52098 (99235) Kinetic Damage(Critical) to Remus.
  • matteo716maikaimatteo716maikai Member Posts: 823
    edited October 2012
    I'm sure the bonus to defence and the accuracy trait will make a difference in the long run.
    Result changing?
    I don't know, but it probably would be easier to have the Ground and Space traits equally available. Like 4 Each? That way a ground based character does not lose as much space potential and vice-versa. imo

    yeah, its weird how they completely revamped the skill tree, then forced us to take ground points yet leave the captain skills the way they are -_-
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    What do you guys think - how large is the influence of space traits on a space or ground battle? Obviously, everything else being equal, the selection of the space traits will tip the balance - but by how much? Will a team with 4 space traits each always defeat a team with no space traits, in a space battle? How about teams with 3 ground and 1 space trait vs 4 space trait-teams?

    Would you build the same without the traits or do you tweak your build some because of them? Some may run with the traits and stock build for the bonuses they feel they get from that while others may tweak their builds because of them - point here and there...etc, etc, etc.

    Would everything else remain equal then?

    Another variable for the equation... theorycrafting fun, fun, fun!
  • trueprom3theustrueprom3theus Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    yeah, its weird how they completely revamped the skill tree, then forced us to take ground points yet leave the captain skills the way they are -_-

    Mr. ministry of truth dstahl said we may get a captain traits respec in couple seasons. But if that's like the pvp promises...
    Hear! Sons of Kahless
    Hear! Daughters too.
    The blood of battle washes clean.
    The Warrior brave and true.
    We fight, we love, and then we kill...
  • trueprom3theustrueprom3theus Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    What do you guys think - how large is the influence of space traits on a space or ground battle? Obviously, everything else being equal, the selection of the space traits will tip the balance - but by how much? Will a team with 4 space traits each always defeat a team with no space traits, in a space battle? How about teams with 3 ground and 1 space trait vs 4 space trait-teams?

    I think the influence is... quite large :P
    Hear! Sons of Kahless
    Hear! Daughters too.
    The blood of battle washes clean.
    The Warrior brave and true.
    We fight, we love, and then we kill...
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  • orondisorondis Member Posts: 1,447 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Someone with the elusive and accurate trait will be able to dodge shots and land hits better then an opponent who has none.

    Take two escorts, both similarly skilled, equipped and both with ACCx3 weapon. Now one has the elusive and accurate trait while the other doesn't.

    The escort with the traits (escort#1) will have a bonus defense as if they've equipped 2 piece AEGIS set (+10 bonus defense), effectively reducing the escort#2's weapon mod to ACCx2. Meanwhile the accuracy trait will increase the escort#1 weapon mod effectively to ACCx4. That doesn't just mean there's greater chance to hit, it also means there's a greater chance there's an overflow resulting in a crit.
    Previously Alendiak
    Daizen - Lvl 60 Tactical - Eclipse
    Selia - Lvl 60 Tactical - Eclipse
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  • marctraiderzmarctraiderz Member Posts: 539 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    What do you guys think - how large is the influence of space traits on a space or ground battle? Obviously, everything else being equal, the selection of the space traits will tip the balance - but by how much? Will a team with 4 space traits each always defeat a team with no space traits, in a space battle? How about teams with 3 ground and 1 space trait vs 4 space trait-teams?

    Quite simple really, if you forgot 1 trait and it could be better, it could be better. If you neglect more of the aspects you can possible improve, then you will definately begin to notice, (or not, if you dont know any better)

    I've always been for maxed out everything on my build, bad retraits, i simply releveled. Back in the days. And I still do it. Leveling a new sci toon, if you make a bad start, then why the hell bother optimize the rest of your build later.

    If you dont have accurate nor elusive, thats basically a 20% accuracy difference. (or whateveR)

    Just my 2 cents.
  • dassemstodassemsto Member Posts: 792 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    accuracy and elusive

    2 space traits that do something. other space traits do almost nothing.

    So 2 space traits = 4 space traits, as far as advantage gained goes.
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  • naz4naz4 Member Posts: 1,373 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    In other words, these two traits are basically OP?

    How can it be op? Difference between useful and not useful doesnt always mean op.

    I have all my numerous toons with different space traits. If you dont have a couple of traits right, its not op to the point where it makes a game winning differece, but good enough to notice.
  • dassemstodassemsto Member Posts: 792 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    In other words, these two traits are basically OP? How should they be nerfed to no be that OP any more? Down to 5% each? Something else?

    Only if:

    OP= does something
    not OP= does nothing

    because this is the situation atm. Accuracy and elusive gives barely noticeable advantage, while all other space traits give no measureable advantage. This is why I say that if you could choose 4 space traits, you should choose these two, and might as well leave the other two traits blank.

    My suggestion would be to buff the heck out of all other space traits. They should all give a noticeable advantage, or else their existence is without purpose.
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    dassemsto wrote: »
    My suggestion would be to buff the heck out of all other space traits. They should all give a noticeable advantage, or else their existence is without purpose.

    Some might argue that everything should actually just give a minor advantage - traits, gear, etc - and that the outcome of battles should be based off of skill...

    ...some argue for noticeable advantages.
  • dassemstodassemsto Member Posts: 792 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Some might argue that everything should actually just give a minor advantage - traits, gear, etc - and that the outcome of battles should be based off of skill...

    ...some argue for noticeable advantages.

    So you think everyone should play on equal terms? Same ships, same skills, same abilities... Well, that doesn't sound like a game I would want to play. Sounds two-dimensional and flat.

    Why minor advantages? Why not major? The greater the advantage, the better, as long as there are advantages available for everyone. Being forced to choose between advantages is one of the major skill requirements in all mmos. It's basically more than half the game. This is one of the main arenas where you can put your gameplay experience and skill to use, to make your ship better suited for the next match.

    If you want a game where only your actual finger movements during combat decides the outcome, maybe a FPS game would be better suited? I for one prefer a more complex game. The more complex the game, the higher the skill requirement becomes, and the more you have to plan and think to be able to excel. If we had 50 space traits, all of them extremely powerful in their own way, choosing your skill, and playing your traits to your advantage would be an immense challenge!
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    dassemsto wrote: »
    So you think everyone should play on equal terms? Same ships, same skills, same abilities... Well, that doesn't sound like a game I would want to play. Sounds two-dimensional and flat.

    Why minor advantages? Why not major? The greater the advantage, the better, as long as there are advantages available for everyone. Being forced to choose between advantages is one of the major skill requirements in all mmos. It's basically more than half the game. This is one of the main arenas where you can put your gameplay experience and skill to use, to make your ship better suited for the next match.

    If you want a game where only your actual finger movements during combat decides the outcome, maybe a FPS game would be better suited? I for one prefer a more complex game. The more complex the game, the higher the skill requirement becomes, and the more you have to plan and think to be able to excel. If we had 50 space traits, all of them extremely powerful in their own way, choosing your skill, and playing your traits to your advantage would be an immense challenge!

    It's over-focused, imo. It caters to the min-max crowd. You're more likely to build a FotM two dimensional character because that's what's hawt at the moment.

    If it's more about nuances - minor advantages - you're likely to see more diversity.

    If the argument is for a plethora of major advantages that are balanced - you're still going to end up with cookie cutter builds. Because players are players - they will min/max, realize that even though some "things" are balanced on a spreadsheet... in actual play, there's going to be something that does better for what they're trying to do - and - things will go unused.

    If things offer minor advantages - nuances - then the player's knowledge and ability to use that knowledge will shine through. Somebody might fly X ship instead of Y ship and actually beat Y ship instead of requiring Y ship to beat Y ship.

    I've never been a fan of rock scissors paper. Player A's screwed because they brought rock and the other guy brought paper. But hey, they'll be okay as long as they face the guy that brought scissors.

    How about while paper might be able to cover rock - rock's pretty damn tough and can smash through paper. Yeah, rock can smash scissors - but scissors can be pretty nimble and chisel away at rock. Yeah, scissors can cut paper - but paper's smart, can get in there, and jam up the scissors so they can't cut.

    Yeah, I'm just not a fan of the standard rock scissors paper game...
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  • dassemstodassemsto Member Posts: 792 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    It's over-focused, imo. It caters to the min-max crowd. You're more likely to build a FotM two dimensional character because that's what's hawt at the moment.

    but no... Strong traits are medecine against flavor of the month builds. Strong trais will make it profitable to go with your strengths, in spite of something being popular. Sure, if the FotM stays static for months and years, every new toon will end up with the same traits, but traits are usually picked on creation based on the current FotM, and hence be different every month (roughly).

    The current situation is that all characters created by serious pvp'ers the last two years have the two useful traits. On top of that, the two cancel each other out, meaning that the only ones suffering are the pugs who didn't know these two traits were the only ones worth taking... :/

    sophlogimo wrote: »
    I have long been saying that everybody should have both 4 ground and 4 space traits. If that was the case, then slightly buffing the other space traits would certainly be the way to go, while not ruining the fun for more ground-oriented species like Gorn or even the 2-ground-trait native Klingons.

    I also have a Gorn, and I would be be positive to the devs locking the traits to 2-ground 2-space.
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  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    dassemsto wrote: »
    I also have a Gorn, and I would be be positive to the devs locking the traits to 2-ground 2-space.

    Even though I tend to run Aliens, I'd have to agree that it should be locked to 2+2. 4-spacing it, is something that I'm generally guilty of...since outside of leveling a toon or grinding something, I'm almost always in space. Folks that don't do that, well - they're likely to build a more balanced toon.
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  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    So why not just increase the total number of traits to 8, with a max of 4 per category (ground/space).

    I believe players should have to weigh the advantages and disadvantages of their choices - though, I do not believe they should feel that they've screwed themselves in the end. If they can just take everything, well - then you're getting into munchkin gaming... I'm not a big fan of that in the least.
  • ghostyandfrostyghostyandfrosty Member Posts: 864
    edited October 2012
    I believe players should have to weigh the advantages and disadvantages of their choices - though, I do not believe they should feel that they've screwed themselves in the end. If they can just take everything, well - then you're getting into munchkin gaming... I'm not a big fan of that in the least.

    Meh there's alot more than 8 traits to pick from.

    I'd be game for a 4 space 4 ground.
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Meh there's alot more than 8 traits to pick from.

    I'd be game for a 4 space 4 ground.

    An Alien has the following choices.

    Space:

    Accurate, Astrophysicist, Efficient Captain, Elusive, Techie, Warp Theorist

    Ground:

    Acute Senses, Aggressive, Cold Blooded, Covert, Creative, Lucky, Mental Discipline, Natural Immunities, Peak Health, Physical Strength, Resilient, Soldier, Stubborn, Sturdy, Sure Footed, Telekinetic, and Telepathic

    That's 6 Space and 17 Ground.

    Yes, there are more than 8 traits to select. There are only 6 Space though.

    You're championing that a player not have to sacrifice anything (ie Ground) by going 4 Space. They'd take the 4 Space they do now and pick up 4 Ground.

    It's munchkin gaming.

    I laughed like most when Tim Allen would grunt and add more power to something. I don't laugh when games go munchkin though...it's tedious and boring, imo.
  • ghostyandfrostyghostyandfrosty Member Posts: 864
    edited October 2012
    An Alien has the following choices.

    Space:

    Accurate, Astrophysicist, Efficient Captain, Elusive, Techie, Warp Theorist

    Ground:

    Acute Senses, Aggressive, Cold Blooded, Covert, Creative, Lucky, Mental Discipline, Natural Immunities, Peak Health, Physical Strength, Resilient, Soldier, Stubborn, Sturdy, Sure Footed, Telekinetic, and Telepathic

    That's 6 Space and 17 Ground.

    Yes, there are more than 8 traits to select. There are only 6 Space though.

    You're championing that a player not have to sacrifice anything (ie Ground) by going 4 Space. They'd take the 4 Space they do now and pick up 4 Ground.

    It's munchkin gaming.

    I laughed like most when Tim Allen would grunt and add more power to something. I don't laugh when games go munchkin though...it's tedious and boring, imo.

    Who cares about Ground? Seriously. Your Spec matters far more than your trait selection does. A space toon will even post f2p still Blow TRIBBLE on the ground. A ground toon will still Suckith The Big One in Space.

    Honestly the idea that forcing people to spend 60k min on the ground would "normalize" pvp builds was a laughable one. I told them that before I left last year in October, alot of us did. And guess what they did? Did it anyway saying we were wrong, and lo and behold we were right. Not only were we right, they in addition never fixed the now Broken Trait System.

    The thing having 4 space traits and 4 ground on All toons would fix is the massive Failing cryptic did of several races by giving them forced lolground traits. The most optimal race is Alien or Joined Trill. In the case of the former you skin it to resemble the race you want to be and give it the good traits. Really there's no point what so ever in picking anything else.
  • havamhavam Member Posts: 1,735 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Meh there's alot more than 8 traits to pick from.

    I'd be game for a 4 space 4 ground.

    +1 *brought to you by this weeks instahlment of "we sometimes agree on things "*
  • razellisrazellis Member Posts: 176 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    4 space and 4 ground sounds nice to my ears but 2 space and 2 ground would just be a pointless bit of aggravation. Everyone would just take the only two space skills that are noticeable.

    That said, ground traits are more powerful than space traits but ground combat isn't a big focus for your average STO player. If it was we'd see more c-store bridge officers, more c-store personal equipment and devices, not a constant stream of new ships.

    Edit: If they put out a chainsword, PowerSledge, Spacemarine armor, Flamethrower or some of the old borg gear as c-store items I might have to invest.
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    The discussion makes me think of the following scene at a toy store...

    Mother: You can pick one toy.
    Child: But mommy!
    Mother: Just one.
    Child: I want two.
    Mother: One.
    Child: No.
    Mother: Okay then.
    Child: What?
    Mother: You get none.
    Child: No!
    Mother: You had your chance.
    Child: I want one.
    Mother: Which one?
    Child: This one.
    Mother: And?
    Child: Thank you.
    Mother: You're welcome.

    Some people went through that as a child and learned about having to make choices. Some people did not.

    edit: BTW, this is not calling anybody childish - it's just the earliest example of "choice" that I can think of...cake or pie for dessert was another.
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