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The multi-roll Escorts

bareelbareel Member Posts: 3 Arc User
edited November 2012 in Federation Discussion
Hello and welcome to my oddball Escort builds. These builds were inspired by a desire to have more effective options in STFs without the standard CRF escort of doom. And while they are tailored to the captian types that I use them with (as I have one of each) they can easily be tweaked for the other two without issue. I encourage players to try 'em out, especially if your getting discouraged trying to make a round cruiser/sci fit into the square hole of an STF. And while these are not optimal builds by any means they are fun and very effective. They can solo cubes, don't die unless you do something silly, and put out plenty of DPS.

The Tank-a-Scort: Engineer Captain
Fleet Patrol Escort (can use regular)
Deflector: Omega
Engine: Borg
Shield: Omega
Weapons: 6x Beam Arrays, 1 Tri-Co Mine
Eng Consoles: 2-3 armor, borg
Sci Consoles: +Flow Capacitor Skill OR Shield Regen OR Shield Heal OR Shield Strength
Power Levels: 100/50/25/25

Tac1: Tactical Team 1, Dispersal Pattern Beta 1, Fire are Will 3
Tac2: Tactical Team 1, Beam Overload 2, Attack Pattern Beta 2, Attack Pattern Omega
Eng 1: Emergency Power to Shields 1
Eng 2: Emergency Power to Shield 1, Directed Energy Modulation 1 OR Extend Shields 1
Sci 1: Tractor Beam OR Transfer Shield Strength, Hazard Emitters 2

I know what your saying to yourself, how on earth is this a tank ship and beams on an escort? Let me explain.

With an Eng captain I have tanked everything every elite STF can throw at me using this ship with the first suggested things on the list. If you grab TSS and use Sci consoles for tank so can any other captain type. The only thing that has given me fits is donotra occasionally but you just pop out to 11k range for about ten seconds to heal up. In addition, with the tetryon glider proc and being an escort you can and will keep agro even with an extreme DPS escort on the team.

In addition engineers are more effective with beam arrays for the most part. The weapon energy overflow will keep dps high with your EPS transfer ability active, and FaW 3 + Nadion Inversion is actually pretty good burst against a single target for an engineer atleast. Just please don't waste your FAW on targets that will insta-heal.

http://youtu.be/jTiliJzMADU Decent run I did like the addition of the mine.

The Support-a-Scort (Science)
MVAE Escort
Deflector: Borg
Engine: Borg
Shield: Maco
Weapons: 3x DHC/1 DBB, 3x Turrets (polaron)
Eng Consoles: 2 armor
Sci Consoles: Borg, 2 Flow Capacitor
Power Levels: 90/60/25/25

Tac 1: Tactical Team 1
Tac 2: Tactical Team 1, Attack Pattern Beta 1
Tac 3: Target Weapons 1, Cannon Scatter Volley 1, Target Shields 3, Attack Pattern Beta 3
Eng: Emergency Power to Shield 1, Emergency Power to Shields 2
Sci: Hazard Emitters 1, Tractor Beam Repulsars 1 OR Siphon Energy 1, Tykens Rift 2 OR Gravity Well 1

And again you think I'm crazy how does this support a team?

Attack Pattern Beta 3 is the single best support ability in STFs. 50% more damage to target hull. For everyone. Stick with the team and watch the targets melt. It also helps out your Photonic Fleet and stacks with good old Sensor Scan.

You can also bring enough CC with a single TBR to save the day, just remember to use your evasive maneuver ability to push 'em a good 20k away while its up if you want. And while you cannot keep a target's shield down for the entire fight without a few lucky polaron procs you do lower their resistance and regeneration amount so it is still very useful. And did I mention the +50% team damage theirs that too. Just keep in mind you are not extremely tanky so watch yourself in a bad pug. And use an Auxiliary Battery before using Tyken's Rift.

If you want you can swap out the shield/engine/deflector for jammie set for DPS or omega for glider but then you go from not much tank to tin-foil tank so it is up to you.

http://youtu.be/-0dzYBaovlA Another sloppy run tried to show the power of APB3 with log but doubt its very visible.

Quantum Defiant (Tactical)
Ship: Defiant
Deflector: Maco
Engine: Borg
Shield: Maco
Weapons: 1x DBB, 3x Quantum Torpedos, 3x Turrets
Consoles: Standard Borg, armors, shield
Power Levels: 90/60/25/25

Tac 1: Tac Team 1
Tac 2: Tac Team 1, Attack Pattern Delta 1, Torp Spread 3
Tac 3: Target Shields 1 OR Torp Spread 1, Cannon Scatter Volley 1, Beam Overload 3, Attack Pattern Beta 3
Eng: Emergency Power to Shields 1, Emergency Power to Shields 2
Sci: Transfer Shield Strength 1, Hazard Emitters 2

Three projectile Doffs are required but once you have them O man is this ship pure fun. I love seeing the insanely high crit damage numbers scroll and your torps fire out so fast that sometimes your torpedo spread will take a bit to go off as the 3rd tube is waiting for a turn. Against a shielded target your BO will make short work of the shield unless it is a boss then you just hope to get lucky with subsystem targeting. It just puts out ridiculously high damage crits with your captain buffs up that I can't help but giggle.

http://youtu.be/PzV8TK9yKRA - Sloppy KASE run but shows the DPS vs Structure potential. Amazing Team.
http://youtu.be/10lLRwvLA-U - CSE run went well enough had low DPS team but oh wells.

These builds were inspired by myself wanting to have highly effective ships in STFs for all 3 of my captains that were not carbon copies of one another. And while yes my engineer could fly a cruiser or my sci could fly sci (she flies a kitty carrier now actually) the sad fact of the matter for me was that the escort could fill the role (tank/cc) 'well enough' and still put out the DPS. So that is what I choose to fly. But by popular demand I will add one more...

Boring Generic Escort
Deflector: Borg/Maco
Engine: Borg
Shield: Maco
Consoles: Armor, Shield, Borg, standard

Weapons: 4x DHC, 3x Turret OR 1 Torp OR 1 DBB front OR 1 mine aft
Eng: 2x Emergency Power to Shield whatever rank
Sci: Hazard Emitters, Transfer Shield Strength
Tac: 2x Tactical Team 1, Cannon Scatter Volley 1, 2x Attack Pattern Beta 2, Cannon Rapid Fire 3
Remaining: Player Choice

This is your standard high DPS STF escort. This is the optimum, or near optimum mix of weapons and boff abilities you would need. It also gets really old really fast.
Post edited by bareel on
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Comments

  • hurleybirdhurleybird Member Posts: 909
    edited October 2012
    Your builds are all terrible, and there's no reason to roll an engscort, ever. If you run an engscort you're doing it massively wrong.

    Go to the PvP forums and ask how to build an escort, or ask in OPvP.

    If anyone is reading this thread looking for build help, disregard practically everything the OP has laid out or you'll seriously gimp yourself.
  • hanoverhanover Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    hurleybird wrote: »
    ....there's no reason to roll an engscort, ever. If you run an engscort you're doing it massively wrong.

    That is total BS.
    Does Arc install a root kit? Ask a Dev today!
  • bareelbareel Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    hurleybird wrote: »
    Your builds are all terrible, and there's no reason to roll an engscort, ever. If you run an engscort you're doing it massively wrong.

    Go to the PvP forums and ask how to build an escort, or ask in OPvP.

    If anyone is reading this thread looking for build help, disregard practically everything the OP has laid out or you'll seriously gimp yourself.

    This is not intended for PvP, nor for optimal play. It is for effective Elite STF play in something other than the standard CRF escort.

    I'm sorry that you feel my builds are ineffective, especially as you have yet to try them for the role I designed and use them for. But I can assure you they are effective as I have flown countless STFs with them, and done very well.

    And lastly, this type of response is exactly why PvPers tend to get on my nerves. There is more to the game that just PvP and not every ship/build needs to be designed for it. So kindly take your PvP elitism, Learn to Read, and go away. Because if we want to be honest and just go for optimal PvP play there is no reason to roll an ENGINEER ever.
  • hurleybirdhurleybird Member Posts: 909
    edited October 2012
    bareel wrote: »
    This is not intended for PvP, nor for optimal play. It is for effective Elite STF play in something other than the standard CRF escort.

    Here's the hard truth: PvP builds are better at practically everything in the game, and one PvPer in an STF is worth three PvErs or RPers.

    Your builds are bad at everything. You could have made an equally effective build for STFs just by throwing darts at a board.
    bareel wrote: »
    I'm sorry that you feel my builds are ineffective, especially as you have yet to try them for the role I designed and use them for. But I can assure you they are effective as I have flown countless STFs with them, and done very well.

    With the exception of the No-Win scenario, it doesn't take good builds or any semblance of talent to beat PvE in this game. You can literally roll your face across the keyboard. It's not an effective yardstick. Doesn't stop a size-able minority of PvErs in this game from failing horribly at STFs for some reason though.
    bareel wrote: »
    And lastly, this type of response is exactly why PvPers tend to get on my nerves. There is more to the game that just PvP and not every ship/build needs to be designed for it.

    A competent PvP build will be infinitely better than yours for any content in the game. God forbid a new and gullible player adopts one of your builds -- they'll get absolutely creamed when finally get around to trying PvP, and that benefits no one.
    bareel wrote: »
    So kindly take your PvP elitism, Learn to Read, and go away.

    Kindly take the ignorance of the game you are blissfully wallowing in, learn to play, and refrain from posting build threads until you are capable of giving good advice. Do you realize that you're TRIBBLE over any new player that stumbles across this?
    bareel wrote: »
    Because if we want to be honest and just go for optimal PvP play there is no reason to roll an ENGINEER ever.

    You can fly an eng/cruiser, sometimes an eng/recluse but never more than one engineer on a team, and never less than two science captains.
  • bareelbareel Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Um no, an optimal PvE build (STF build) would go 'boom' so fast in PvP it is not even funny. Let me just list a few abilities that have a completely different value between the two.

    Sci Team: PvP great, PvE waste
    Epower to Shield 3: PvP great, PvE waste
    Fire on my Mark: PvP junk, PvE great
    Sub Nuke: PvP great, PvE waste

    etc, etc, etc. The 'optimal' PvE build has just enough tank to survive with everything else focused on DPS. Pretty sure PvP is a wee bit different. But I would have expected you to already know this. There is no point in me posting the 'optimum STF escort build' as it has been posted 100s of times. Its pretty frelling simple, tac/escort + DHC + CRF + APB.

    I could go on and point-counterpoint your petty little points that mostly come down to you saying "I PVP so I am great and PvE players are morons" but that would be a waste of breath. Instead I will offer you some advice.

    If you wonder why PvP in this game has seen so little attention and why the vast majority of the player base has little interest in it I suggest you ask yourself: "Would I want to play a game with someone who acts like me?"
  • scbypwrscbypwr Member Posts: 177 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Why dont you contribute and give us a pvp build then.

    You know...an alternative!

    Trolling makes you look so intelligent!
  • redrickyredricky Member Posts: 1,004 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    I'm all for fun and flying what you want, but advocating these builds opens you up to some criticism. These are all impressive min/min builds.

    First, a word on STFs in general. Optionals require one thing above all else: DPS. TBR and zone control can buy you some time, but nothing will ever be a better option than throwing it down harder. I do attempt to avoid speaking in absolutes, but I will say that you should never be tanking a cube. My poorly geared MVAM doesn't touch a heal in the time it takes to pop a cube on elite. If you are running a fun build, stay on normal. There's an expectation that you will have the courtesy to bring hardcore dps to elite.
    bareel wrote: »
    just remember to use your evasive maneuver ability to push 'em a good 20k away while its up if you want. And while you cannot keep a target's shield down for the entire fight without a few lucky polaron procs you do lower their resistance and regeneration amount so it is still very useful.
    So you're saying you TBR, what, a nanite sphere, 20k away, then hold its aggro there even though you can't do enough damage to drop its shields? If anybody is reading this who does not understand STFs, please do not ever do this. There's not enough brain damage in the world to justify TBR'ing something 20k away. It will only cause the team to lose track of it, and it will come back at the most inopportune time. TBR should be used with low Aux so the pushes are manageable, then you can avoid scattering a group of NPCs. Rather, you shuffleboard the entire group away from whatever zone you're controlling while leaving them in a tight enough bunch for CSV and Torp Spread.

    As for the "the standard CRF escort of doom," you've got the wrong Beta. In the current state of game balance, CRF is used to keep cube shields down so that a Tricobalt Dispersal Pattern Beta 3 will land on hull. If you had DPB3 on your builds, everything else could be forgiven because you would be killing things so quickly that the loss of efficiency from all the other things would be made up for. It's that powerful.
    bareel wrote: »
    This is not intended for PvP, nor for optimal play.
    PvP aside, it is impolite to do less than your best in elite STFs.
    hurleybird wrote: »
    Do you realize that you're TRIBBLE over any new player that stumbles across this?
    Blunt, but true.
    _______________
    CommanderDonatra@Capt.Sisko: ahhh is it supposed to do that?
    Norvo Tigan@dontdrunkimshoot: hell ya, maybe
  • edited October 2012
    This content has been removed.
  • bareelbareel Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Nah TBR gets used mostly for CSE raptors. And even then rarely but it is nice to have.

    I did try mines on the tank-a-scort and they didn't pan out that well, but they were not the Tri-Co ones I will have to give that a try as the torp doesn't see too much action typically.

    As for DPS all 3 ships deal plenty when used properly. I suggest you give 'em a try.
  • redrickyredricky Member Posts: 1,004 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    bareel wrote: »
    Um no, an optimal PvE build (STF build) would go 'boom' so fast in PvP it is not even funny. Let me just list a few abilities that have a completely different value between the two.
    If you had posted anything resembling an optimal PvE build you would not have received such harsh criticism.
    bareel wrote: »
    If you wonder why PvP in this game has seen so little attention and why the vast majority of the player base has little interest in it I suggest you ask yourself: "Would I want to play a game with someone who acts like me?"
    I like him. He's cranky sometimes, and blunt, but often he's right.

    Let me turn your question around on you: would you want to enter an STF with a team running 5 copies of your builds? I wouldn't. I don't think they could complete an optional in any STF.
    bareel wrote: »
    Nah TBR gets used mostly for CSE raptors. And even then rarely but it is nice to have.
    So you shove it 20k away. It slowly creeps back towards the Kang, and in the meantime another wave has spawned. Now you have a larger group of NPCs to deal with. This is boneheaded. If you're lucky it doesn't get shoved behind, above, or below the Kang and end up on an attack vector that your team isn't watching. But it probably will.

    Yeah, I PvP, and I think your builds are awful, but I also wouldn't want you on my team for an STF. Your intentions for these builds make you a liability. It's not just the builds that demonstrate a lack of understanding about STFs, in particular elite optionals, it's the descriptions of how you use them that fails like a soup sandwich.
    _______________
    CommanderDonatra@Capt.Sisko: ahhh is it supposed to do that?
    Norvo Tigan@dontdrunkimshoot: hell ya, maybe
  • hurleybirdhurleybird Member Posts: 909
    edited October 2012
    Even when you're trying to be smart you get everything wrong.
    bareel wrote: »
    Sci Team: PvP great, PvE waste

    Science team is an excellent burst shield heal, and in that capacity works good in both PvE and PvP.
    bareel wrote: »
    Epower to Shield 3: PvP great, PvE waste

    Wrong. If you waste a Lt Cmdr. slot on EPtS 3 you are a bad player, doesn't matter if you are playing PvP or PvE.
    bareel wrote: »
    Fire on my Mark: PvP junk, PvE great

    It's not junk at all, but you do need to know when to use it. In either case, as a captain ability it's a moot point -- Tactical captains work well in both PvE and PvP so you're stuck with it either way.
    bareel wrote: »
    Sub Nuke: PvP great, PvE waste

    Again, being a captain ability and not something you chose to slot invalidates your point. And in the only challenging PvE in this game, the No-Win scenario, it does help to have one or two copies of science fleet, scattering field, and sensor scan.
    bareel wrote: »
    The 'optimal' PvE build has just enough tank to survive with everything else focused on DPS.

    Also wrong. One of the many reasons that PvErs and RPers fail so hard at PvE is that they don't cross heal or support each other very well. The fact that you say "tank" instead of "healing" betrays it as well. PvPers work as a team, and can afford to min/max more than PvErs who are oblivious to everything happening around them. Optimized PvP builds are better than self-centered ones across the board.
    bareel wrote: »
    Its pretty frelling simple, tac/escort + DHC + CRF + APB.

    CRF? Wrong again. Correct answer is CSV. And while it's true that the STFs work great with five escorts, the same can't be said of the No Win scenario.
    bareel wrote: »
    "I PVP so I am great and PvE players are morons"

    Because of this game's faceroll-level PvE you guys develop a lot of stupid ideas and the game lets you get away with it. Ego and confirmation bias takes care of the rest. The majority of you guys aren't morons, but your understanding of the game is moronic none-the-less.
    bareel wrote: »
    If you wonder why PvP in this game has seen so little attention and why the vast majority of the player base has little interest in it I suggest you ask yourself: "Would I want to play a game with someone who acts like me?"

    It might have to do something with:

    1. No PvP development since launch
    2. Pitiful rewards from doing PvP
    3. PvE that doesen't teach people how to play
    4. Advice threads like this making people even worse

    The most ironic thing here? There are some things that work a lot better in PvE than PvP and vice versa, you just happened to miss every single one of them. That's why PvP builds are always better than PvE builds -- PvErs are largely incapable of making good builds for anything. The carebear nature of STO PvE denies you guys the ability to see if your builds are good or not. If for some reason a PvE build is better than a PvP build in PvE, it's only because it was built by a PvPer!
    scbypwr wrote: »
    Why dont you contribute and give us a pvp build then.

    You know...an alternative!

    Sure, but later, if Ricky doesn't beat me to it. I need to get some sleep.
  • dareaudareau Member Posts: 2,390 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    bareel wrote: »
    The Support-a-Scort (Science)
    MVAE Escort
    Deflector: Borg
    Engine: Borg
    Shield: Maco
    Weapons: 3x DHC/1 DBB, 3x Turrets (polaron)
    Eng Consoles: 2 armor
    Sci Consoles: Borg, 2 Flow Capacitor
    Power Levels: 90/60/25/25

    Tac 1: Tactical Team 1
    Tac 2: Tactical Team 1, Attack Pattern Beta 1
    Tac 3: Target Weapons 1, Cannon Scatter Volley 1, Target Shields 3, Attack Pattern Beta 3
    Eng: Emergency Power to Shield 1, Emergency Power to Shields 2
    Sci: Hazard Emitters 1, Tractor Beam Repulsars 1 OR Siphon Energy 1, Tykens Rift 2 OR Gravity Well 1

    And again you think I'm crazy how does this support a team?

    Attack Pattern Beta 3 is the single best support ability in STFs. 50% more damage to target hull. For everyone. Stick with the team and watch the targets melt. It also helps out your Photonic Fleet and stacks with good old Sensor Scan.

    You can also bring enough CC with a single TBR to save the day, just remember to use your evasive maneuver ability to push 'em a good 20k away while its up if you want. And while you cannot keep a target's shield down for the entire fight without a few lucky polaron procs you do lower their resistance and regeneration amount so it is still very useful. And did I mention the +50% team damage theirs that too. Just keep in mind you are not extremely tanky so watch yourself in a bad pug. And use an Auxiliary Battery before using Tyken's Rift.

    If you want you can swap out the shield/engine/deflector for jammie set for DPS or omega for glider but then you go from not much tank to tin-foil tank so it is up to you.

    My take, pure PvE player:

    1. Drop the DBB, replace with torp of choice (photon/quantum).
    2. Drop the target weapons skill (no beam now), replace with torp spread 1. Drop target shields 3, replace with CRF 2. (yes, I know you want a "no CRF build", but at the same time 1/2 the targets in STFs don't have shields (and 1/3 don't have weapons), but enormous piles of HP you need to chew through ASAP.
    3. Go with the alternates on your two choices (energy syphon & GW). GW is better at CC than TBR, because it clusters the opposition into one small area for the CSV/Torp spreads to do their work, even better when the team tosses a friendly assist. Energy syphon is a decent "big target" power, combined with polaron procs you might be able to put a decent level of disablement on the target, however, I'm more inclined to recommend a second hull heal as you can't rely on borg set proc and one HE to keep you alive if/when you manage to draw any kind of aggro.
    4. Have two power settings - 90/25/25/60 for "general" work, the aforementioned 90/60/25/25 for bigger targets / rare times you have aggro. Even then, if you have a 1/2 way decent team that can keep aggro off of you, you might never need to switch to the 90/60/25/25 set...
    5. Why flow cap consoles? Energy syphon? I don't think flow caps really influences the polaron procs, but I could be wrong, haven't flown polaron in the "new" environment much. I'd recommend 2x sci shield boosters instead (the + to shield cap ones), to help prevent hull hits (which this build is ill prepared for in the first place).
    Detecting big-time "anti-old-school" bias here. NX? Lobi. TOS/TMP Connie? Super-promotion-box. (aka the two hardest ways to get ships) Excelsior & all 3 TNG "big hero" ships? C-Store. Please Equalize...

    To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
  • husanakxhusanakx Member Posts: 1,674 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    bareel wrote: »
    Nah TBR gets used mostly for CSE raptors. And even then rarely but it is nice to have.

    I did try mines on the tank-a-scort and they didn't pan out that well, but they were not the Tri-Co ones I will have to give that a try as the torp doesn't see too much action typically.

    As for DPS all 3 ships deal plenty when used properly. I suggest you give 'em a try.

    Oh my word I can't stand when someone brings TBR to an STF... So very very annoying.

    Stop pushing my targets 20k away. Damn 3 rounds of cannons and I would kill it if I don't have to go chasing it down 40k away.

    You want to run something crazy that is pve only... throw a Gravity well on a mvam... suck up ALL the spears at one time... evasive through them and drop 4 tric mines on there head with DPB 3. Even in with a subpar engi that will likely take them all out. That is outside the box thinking in an STF.... not using TBR to just push things all over the damn place.

    TBR for raptors in Cure man this is why I don't pug STF Ellites... if your team doesn't have the dps to remove a couple raptors, it must be mind numbing.

    Anyway I don't mean to rag man have fun flying what ever you want. Just know that things like TBR to push the targets all over the darn place annoy most people. I'll take a team of limp cruisers doing nothing but watching me complete the darn STF faster then they have ever seen... over a team of TBR pushing engi scorts. :)
  • skurfskurf Member Posts: 1,071 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    At least he could use the TBR's in No Win Scenario. So that's a positive for his build!
  • amidoinitrightamidoinitright Member Posts: 163 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    It's multi-role, by the way, not multi-roll. I thought we finally got a barrel roll emote or something. I got all excited. Imagine my disappointment.

    However, that was the least of the problems with your post. I wouldn't want to be in an STF with your build as a teammate.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] Time played in game. as of 9/12/12 (on my mains) Total 2907 hours.K'zoontite has been on active duty for 34 days, 3 hours, Bot Fly has been on active duty for 55 days, 4 hours, Poppa Capp has been on active duty for 4 days, 12 hours, B'zooka has been on active duty for 12 days, 22 hours,Tater(fed) has been on active duty for 14 days, 10 hours,
  • orondisorondis Member Posts: 1,447 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    hurleybird wrote: »

    Science team is an excellent burst shield heal, and in that capacity works good in both PvE and PvP.

    It's a very poor burst shield heal unless it's ST3, even then it's only use is when you're shields are virtually down all around. TT1 is far more effective.
    Wrong. If you waste a Lt Cmdr. slot on EPtS 3 you are a bad player, doesn't matter if you are playing PvP or PvE.

    You can use one and you won't lose your healing proficiency, it's only when you take 2xEPTS3 that you're being a noob. Also it's not just cruisers that can use EPTS3 now.
    It's not junk at all, but you do need to know when to use it. In either case, as a captain ability it's a moot point -- Tactical captains work well in both PvE and PvP so you're stuck with it either way.

    There's a gap of 5 seconds where you can actually use it. Chances are even perfectly timed it'll go to waste unless the target is held down and totally disabled. By which point he'd probably be doomed already, FOMM or no FOMM.
    Again, being a captain ability and not something you chose to slot invalidates your point. And in the only challenging PvE in this game, the No-Win scenario, it does help to have one or two copies of science fleet, scattering field, and sensor scan.

    Again though he's right. Baring slowing the firing rate of the target, SNB is of very little real use in PvE since so few NPCs actually use any buffs worth removing.
    Also wrong. One of the many reasons that PvErs and RPers fail so hard at PvE is that they don't cross heal or support each other very well. The fact that you say "tank" instead of "healing" betrays it as well. PvPers work as a team, and can afford to min/max more than PvErs who are oblivious to everything happening around them. Optimized PvP builds are better than self-centered ones across the board.

    With very small exceptions, you don't need to cross heal in PvE. Even a tac in an escort can tank a tactical cube or a gate.
    CRF? Wrong again. Correct answer is CSV. And while it's true that the STFs work great with five escorts, the same can't be said of the No Win scenario.

    CSV does less damage then CRF and is pretty much situational. Great for dealing with probes and spam, but not anywhere near as good as CRF for dealing with single targets.

    Don't get me wrong though, I'm not defending the Ops post, that is a terrible build.
    Previously Alendiak
    Daizen - Lvl 60 Tactical - Eclipse
    Selia - Lvl 60 Tactical - Eclipse
  • amidoinitrightamidoinitright Member Posts: 163 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    orondis wrote: »
    CSV does less damage then CRF and is pretty much situational. Great for dealing with probes and spam, but not anywhere near as good as CRF for dealing with single targets.

    You fire CSV, you do 70% of the damage to multiple targets. say you hit 5 of them. 5x70= 350% of the DPS. ending the match much faster & helping get the optional. Other than fighting some of the cubes it's pretty easy to fire at multiple targets through most of the Q'd PVE.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] Time played in game. as of 9/12/12 (on my mains) Total 2907 hours.K'zoontite has been on active duty for 34 days, 3 hours, Bot Fly has been on active duty for 55 days, 4 hours, Poppa Capp has been on active duty for 4 days, 12 hours, B'zooka has been on active duty for 12 days, 22 hours,Tater(fed) has been on active duty for 14 days, 10 hours,
  • orondisorondis Member Posts: 1,447 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    You fire CSV, you do 70% of the damage to multiple targets. say you hit 5 of them. 5x70= 350% of the DPS. ending the match much faster & helping get the optional. Other than fighting some of the cubes it's pretty easy to fire at multiple targets through most of the Q'd PVE.

    As I said, it's situational. Great for dealing with mobs but nowhere near as efficient as CRF when dealing with one.
    Previously Alendiak
    Daizen - Lvl 60 Tactical - Eclipse
    Selia - Lvl 60 Tactical - Eclipse
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  • tudenomtudenom Member Posts: 75 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Thanks for the build suggestions Bareel. I might just give this a try with my Engineer/Escort.

    There's so many elitists on this board it's not funny, and I'm not laughing. For the naysayers please read the following again and try to understand what he's presenting to us:
    bareel wrote: »
    These builds were inspired by a desire to have more effective options in STFs without the standard CRF escort of doom........especially if your getting discouraged trying to make a round cruiser/sci fit into the square hole of an STF.......And while these are not optimal builds by any means they are fun and very effective.....the sad fact of the matter for me was that the escort could fill the role (tank/cc) 'well enough' and still put out the DPS.

    The elitists complain when you bring a cruiser into an STF declaring that they don't do enough DPS and are too selfishly tanky, but when you put an engineer into an escort that suits an engineer best they still complain that you're not doing enough?

    Are you doing more DPS? - YES
    Are you less selfishly tanky? - YES

    What's the problem then?

    Not everyone has the time to "roll a tac" and only has one character, Bareel makes some useful suggestions and the elitists schit all over him, nice trolling job!

    In my opinion Bareel you're doing the best of a bad situation in this DPS centred game and I thank you for thinking outside of the box.
  • dontdrunkimshootdontdrunkimshoot Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    heres a pvp build i can come up with off the top of my head that will smash through any stf. for a patrol escort, fleet patrol escort, fleet/retro somra, bug, fleet/retro escort, retro scourge, anything with an eng ensign station

    4DHC/3turrets

    borg engine, deflector, maco for fed/khg shield or fleet advanced resistant shield for kdf

    TT1, CRF1, APO1, CRF3
    TT1, CSV1, APO1

    EPtS1, AtS1
    EPtS1

    PH1, HE2


    consoles for stf-

    eng consoles- 2 Monotanium, 1 Electroceramic

    sci consoles- borg, field projecter/p2w console

    tactical consoles- 4 energy type

    works good in pvp because it maximizes the damage you can deal in an alpha strike, is immune to tractor beams, and can deal with spam a bit with a CSV handy.

    in stfs it can give you huge single target damage potential, tractor immunity because borg like tractors too, and an aoe attack against multiple spawns.

    there, this thread just became 10 times more useful.




    a more advanced build would bring something like this

    4DHC/2turrets, 1 tric mine

    TT1, CRF1, APO1, DPB3
    TT1, CRF1, APO1

    EPtS1, AtS1
    EPtS1

    PH1, HE2

    now you can 1 shot groups of spawns and cubes
  • skurfskurf Member Posts: 1,071 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    TT1, CRF1, APO1, CRF3
    TT1, CSV1, APO1

    EPtS1, AtS1
    EPtS1

    PH1, HE2

    No RSP? Not sure why you would need AtS1 if you already have HE2 and the opportunity cost of not having RSP is too high imo. I would switch AtS1 with RSP and switch one of the EPtS1's with EPtE1 or EPtW1. But then again, I'm a noob.
  • nicha0nicha0 Member Posts: 1,456 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    In an STF CSV is far superior CRF. CSV is going to give you a big high yield defense as well.

    CSE - Kang defense is all multi-target, clearing nanites is multiple targets, even the Neg and Raptor spawns are giving you more than one thing to hit. Boss has lots of spam, but super easy.

    ISE is the most CRF friendly but is the least DPS oriented mission. The generators and transformers are single targets but are non-hostile so who cares? They go down fast. They sphere spam is where you lose time.

    KASE probe duty is all multi target, even the CSV1 might have issues with 4 probes. Even the generators you are trying to hit more than one. The transformers are the biggest target but if you have 3 decent players they are only going to last seconds.

    I'd rather go CSV than a CRF build, I'd take a Trico build over the CRF as well.

    OPs builds are garbage, and TBR is likely to get them cussed out for wasting Alphas constantly and slowing down the team. Its kinda like the idiots with snipers in IGE.
    Delirium Tremens
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  • dontdrunkimshootdontdrunkimshoot Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    skurf wrote: »
    No RSP? Not sure why you would need AtS1 if you already have HE2 and the opportunity cost of not having RSP is too high imo. I would switch AtS1 with RSP and switch one of the EPtS1's with EPtE1 or EPtW1. But then again, I'm a noob.

    shield distribution BFI doffs, use them in place of RSP. have at least 3 green? 2 or 3 blue? 2 purple? 3 purple?! you wont miss RSP, but you will miss a hull heal every 15 seconds. or you can evasive away from imoble borg units and cycle EPtS to fill you back up. the other 2 doff slots you could slot conn doffs so you can evasive more often. your gonna need HE when they stack plasma fire on you. you want 2 EPtS1s for full up time on the sweet resistance it provides
  • travelingmastertravelingmaster Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    orondis wrote: »

    There's a gap of 5 seconds where you can actually use it. Chances are even perfectly timed it'll go to waste unless the target is held down and totally disabled. By which point he'd probably be doomed already, FOMM or no FOMM.

    I agree to a certain extent. FOMM can be cleared by Tactical Team, and almost everyone in PvP carries at least one copy of Tactical Team. It is, however, useful on a hit-and-run BoP (the kind of build Thissler and Zirac use, as well as myself), as long as you time your attack between Tactical Team cooldowns. Since your ambush alpha run shouldn't last longer than 4-5 seconds, it's perfect for that particular purpose. It adds a very nice debuff, making your alpha much more effective.

    Outside of other well-timed uses on exhausted-buff targets, though, it doesn't have much use. Fortunately, tac officers don't have to waste a Boff slot to get it, it's a 'free' debuff.
    My PvP toon is Krov, of The House of Snoo. Beware of my Hegh'ta of doom.
  • dontdrunkimshootdontdrunkimshoot Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    I agree to a certain extent. FOMM can be cleared by Tactical Team, and almost everyone in PvP carries at least one copy of Tactical Team. It is, however, useful on a hit-and-run BoP (the kind of build Thissler and Zirac use, as well as myself), as long as you time your attack between Tactical Team cooldowns. Since your ambush alpha run shouldn't last longer than 4-5 seconds, it's perfect for that particular purpose. It adds a very nice debuff, making your alpha much more effective.

    Outside of other well-timed uses on exhausted-buff targets, though, it doesn't have much use. Fortunately, tac officers don't have to waste a Boff slot to get it, it's a 'free' debuff.

    if i can get someone alone, and see them use ET or ST, awwwwww yaaaaaaa FOMM time baby!
  • redrickyredricky Member Posts: 1,004 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    hurleybird wrote: »
    Sure, but later, if Ricky doesn't beat me to it. I need to get some sleep.
    Here's my endorsement of tric mine abuse in STFs.

    http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?p=5954871&posted=1#post5954871
    _______________
    CommanderDonatra@Capt.Sisko: ahhh is it supposed to do that?
    Norvo Tigan@dontdrunkimshoot: hell ya, maybe
  • hurleybirdhurleybird Member Posts: 909
    edited October 2012
    orondis wrote: »
    It's a very poor burst shield heal unless it's ST3, even then it's only use is when you're shields are virtually down all around. TT1 is far more effective.

    ST 3 is an 18000+ burst heal if you're spec'd in. That's huge. TT works great when you have shields on other facings, but you still need to replenish them. I'm not saying that ST is the best PvE skill, but it's a passable one. Certainly not "a waste" of a skill in PvE like, say, RSP.
    orondis wrote: »
    You can use one and you won't lose your healing proficiency, it's only when you take 2xEPTS3 that you're being a noob. Also it's not just cruisers that can use EPTS3 now.

    No, if you use even one copy of EPtS 3 you are doing it wrong. There are far better uses for high level engineering slots.
    orondis wrote: »
    There's a gap of 5 seconds where you can actually use it.

    Assuming someone is chaining tactical team all the time, sure. But that's not really how it works in the real world. For example, if a player has tactical team up and get's SNBed, you immediately want to apply FoMM while his resistances are down. It can easily make the difference between getting a kill or not.
    orondis wrote: »
    Again though he's right. Baring slowing the firing rate of the target, SNB is of very little real use in PvE since so few NPCs actually use any buffs worth removing.

    You aren't reading what I wrote. Of course SNB isn't a very good PvE ability, although you can use it to strip HYT off cubes and BFaW off gates it's usage is extremely limited vs. PvP. That doesn't matter. It's an irrelevant point to make. If you fly a science captain you can't chose to take something else instead, and the other science captain skills are almost necessary in No-Win so you're stuck with science captains in the only challenging PvE mission in the game anyway.
    orondis wrote: »
    With very small exceptions, you don't need to cross heal in PvE. Even a tac in an escort can tank a tactical cube or a gate.

    You need healing in No-Win, definitely. Ideally in STFs you don't need much in the way of cross healing if you can kill everything quickly enough. Unfortunately though, PvErs and RPers suck at STFs, don't balance their shields, rarely heal each other, and have little in the way of meaningful DPS. Regardless, the experience goes far better when you send them heals to stop them from blowing up.
    orondis wrote: »
    CSV does less damage then CRF and is pretty much situational. Great for dealing with probes and spam, but not anywhere near as good as CRF for dealing with single targets.

    CSV is worse for single target sure, but not by too much, and it's infinitely better at multi-target. On the whole, it's the attack skill you want to use for PvE. At the very least you want one copy.
    orondis wrote: »
    Don't get me wrong though, I'm not defending the Ops post, that is a terrible build.

    Good to hear.
  • bareelbareel Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Ok lots of posts to respond too so here are some points in no particular order.

    1) Using TBR to push raptors is sometimes needed in a PuG. When I clear mid raptor spawn and the left spawn is almost upon the kang and barely damaged it can and will save the day. In addition the raptors do not start their respawn timer until the ones on the field are killed. This means in theory it is just as effective to keep them away from the kang as it is to kill them. TBR is no doubt situational and should only be used once or twice at most in an entire STF but when it is used it can save the day/optimal.

    2) I use these builds all the time and typically outperform all but the best players that I tend to get grouped up with in PuGs. They have the DPS, they have the tank, and they have a force multiplier of some type. Please explain where exactly your issue is with it.

    3) All these PvP STF builds suggested are not optimal. Most don't even have APB in them which is the highest damage ability in an STF. Sustained DPS > Burst DPS in an STF. Will they work, sure, but not any better than the ones I already posted.

    To that end I have made 2 videos of the Quantium Defiant (CSE and KASE) that I am uploading now. They are each 15 minutes in length and while I was very sloppy they still showcase that the build is solid. In the KASE match I put out over 10k DPS without captain buffs active against the nanite. In the CSE match I cleared an entire side solo in a around 6? minutes. That ship is purpose built to demolish high HP borg structures while still being able to do all the jobs it would be needed to do. The only time she struggles is against high shielded targets like tac cubes and donotra.

    The torps deal a huge amount of sustained DPS. The Beam Overload and shield targeting take down cube and Neg'Var facings allowing the torps to do their job. The CSV applies APB to groups of targets and wears down their shields allowing Torp Spread to finish the job. I will place the links in the original post and make more (hopefully without me making as many errors) videos for all the builds.
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