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Ground Pvp and the new Lobi Stasis Pistol

totallyrolledtotallyrolled Member Posts: 0 Arc User
edited October 2012 in PvP Gameplay
Okay for those in the small ground community if you haven't faced the new stasis pistol in ground pvp you will soon. The #2 attack puts you in a stasis field for 5 seconds that THE willpower doesn't seem to resist.

While you cannot take damage while in this field when you come out of it expect to be ganked to death, have a grenade fire on you, a bomb up your a$$ ready to explode, a fully buffed tact with puleswave ready to one shot you.

Now the cryo pulsewave is bad enough but my engy can easily tank it. But this new weapon is going to totally kill ground pvp now. Whatever ****** dreams these things up needs his head checked. It is available in the lobi store for 50 lobi and is bound to character. Heck might as well get started on ruining ground pvp. Space has long since been effed. I mean yes you fixed the double stealth stacking and thus grenade problem. You fixed engy kit swap but when you release totally op TRIBBLE like this it cancels it out. Craptic YOU FAIL!

Edit post potential balance pass either add a nice high value of damage resist to the target for 5 seconds upon expiration or nerf the duration to 3 seconds max with willpower resisting at plus 99 to 1.5 seconds. Fix this damn thing before it gets out of hand or expect lots of incoming tickets with tears attached cause I will get and use this thing.
Post edited by totallyrolled on

Comments

  • falloutx23falloutx23 Member Posts: 456
    edited September 2012
    shouldnt this be merged into this thread?

    http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=401821
  • totallyrolledtotallyrolled Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    falloutx23 wrote: »
    shouldnt this be merged into this thread?

    http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=401821

    Actually no it shouldn't it is info about the new op ground TRIBBLE. Unlike the noob in that thread I won't quit. I will instead take a page from mav's book and create as many tear filled tickets from other players as I can. I care and post this cause it's further TRIBBLE up this game's pvp.

    Now please stop being a forum troll and contribute something useful around here. Well I shouldn't ask to much of you that's about all you are good for in game nowadays anyway. GG BRO!
  • falloutx23falloutx23 Member Posts: 456
    edited September 2012
    Actually no it shouldn't it is info about the new op ground TRIBBLE. Unlike the noob in that thread I won't quit. I will instead take a page from mav's book and create as many tear filled tickets from other players as I can. I care and post this cause it's further TRIBBLE up this game's pvp.

    Now please stop being a forum troll and contribute something useful around here. Well I shouldn't ask to much of you that's about all you are good for in game nowadays anyway. GG BRO!

    did you edit your first post with an actual idea for a fix before or after you posted this?

    And I never say GG BRO! I say "thanx e1" ;)
  • totallyrolledtotallyrolled Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    falloutx23 wrote: »
    did you edit your first post with an actual idea for a fix before or after you posted this?

    And I never say GG BRO! I say "thanx e1" ;)

    Thanks for proving my point about lack of contribution and trolling. : )
  • aquitaine985aquitaine985 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Every time something new comes out, people always go nuts. When the Cryo set came out, people we're singing the death of ground PVP as we know it. Even after it was nerfed people wern't happy. Yet still you play.

    OMG, drones are going to kill PVP! Poeple still in the queues.
    OMG, the spam, dear lord the new fed carriers and their spam! People still in the queues.
    OMG, assimilaters are all around me, my beams they hurt me! People still in the queues.
    OMG, the chances of a whole team using three subnuke doffs is very unlikely but it'll still kill PVP! Nah, we'll just move on just as everyone always has.

    I swear something is "going to kill PVP as we know it" every ****in' week.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    @Aquitaine985
    Lag Industries STO PvP Fleet - Executive
    A Sad Panda of Industrial calibre.
    2010: This is Cryptic PvP. Please hold the line, your call is very important to us...
  • guriphuguriphu Member Posts: 494 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Does Hypo clear it?
  • shailatshailat Member Posts: 478 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    guriphu wrote: »
    Does Hypo clear it?


    Picture of it

    no, when your in stasis you cant move cant do anything
    ogew7.jpg
  • sboslayersboslayer Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Every time something new comes out, people always go nuts. When the Cryo set came out, people we're singing the death of ground PVP as we know it. Even after it was nerfed people wern't happy. Yet still you play.

    OMG, drones are going to kill PVP! Poeple still in the queues.
    OMG, the spam, dear lord the new fed carriers and their spam! People still in the queues.
    OMG, assimilaters are all around me, my beams they hurt me! People still in the queues.
    OMG, the chances of a whole team using three subnuke doffs is very unlikely but it'll still kill PVP! Nah, we'll just move on just as everyone always has.

    I swear something is "going to kill PVP as we know it" every ****in' week.

    To be fair, I don't really gripe about ground pvp, although I play it. However, these guns are getting a bit out of control. Since Crypitc wasted a whole season "apparently" revamping ground pvp they have fundamentally damaged any changes they have made buy releasing these guns.

    It's easier to kill people since the update, but the problem is with that the new guns one shot with a lack of skill involved.

    The Cryo gun wasn't really nerfed and i'm although i've not seen the new temporal gun in action I think It might be near quitting ground pvp until they actually think about what they are putting into the game :/

    It's all about P2W, they aren't bothered if it's a good game they are living off the hope people want the best "one shot guns" and will waste the money on lockboxes. Imo.
  • guriphuguriphu Member Posts: 494 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    I've already quit playing ground pvp except as a member of a full or near-full group trying to go up against similar groups from other pvp fleets. And I've pretty much given up on space pvp after the latest batch of P2W. Half the PvPers I know have quit or mostly-quit playing this game, and most of that isn't related to anything except for the game itself.

    People get upset about new things over and over again because over and over again, Cryptic introduces things that hurt PvP, and shows little intent of ever addressing any of them. Old bugs and design flaws are ignored, and the few fixes we do get often fix half of a problem and break something else. This game is getting worse and worse while the learning curve is getting steeper and monetary barriers to entry are skyrocketing, and things show no sign of ever getting better. Something does kill PvP as we know it every few months - kills it and replaces it with something a little less fun and a little more expensive, until eventually there isn't enough left of what you enjoyed to merit the rising cost.
  • borticuscrypticborticuscryptic Member Posts: 2,478 Cryptic Developer
    edited October 2012
    I'm attempting to find a way to make the Hold duration reduced by the target's Willpower stat.

    That, on its own, isn't difficult at all. The issue is that the Damage Immunity modifier lasts the same duration regardless of the player's Willpower.

    In other words, if you resist the Hold and reduce its duration from the 9sec it usually lasts, down to 5sec, you still get a full 9sec of Damage Immunity.

    This isn't an insurmountable issue, but it's also not a quick & easy fix. As soon as we can work around it, you will be capable of reducing the Stasis duration by investing into Willpower.

    Edited to add:
    On a somewhat related note, there is a bug with this weapon currently that may be causing the Immunity period to already outlast the Hold on some players. It's a known issue, and will be corrected soon.
    Jeremy Randall
    Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
    "Play smart!"
  • leviathan99#2867 leviathan99 Member Posts: 7,747 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    I'm attempting to find a way to make the Hold duration reduced by the target's Willpower stat.

    That, on its own, isn't difficult at all. The issue is that the Damage Immunity modifier lasts the same duration regardless of the player's Willpower.

    In other words, if you resist the Hold and reduce its duration from the 9sec it usually lasts, down to 5sec, you still get a full 9sec of Damage Immunity.

    This isn't an insurmountable issue, but it's also not a quick & easy fix. As soon as we can work around it, you will be capable of reducing the Stasis duration by investing into Willpower.

    Edited to add:
    On a somewhat related note, there is a bug with this weapon currently that may be causing the Immunity period to already outlast the Hold on some players. It's a known issue, and will be corrected soon.

    Do you think you could nerf the gimmick more and buff the stats more or create some synergy/set bonus for the two guns? I'd like to build up an away team with these but there's no way that can be very good. In turn, they still seem OP for PvP.

    Or create a PVE version of the pistol that looks like a phaser and acts like a rifle, representing 29th century miniaturization in action.
  • borticuscrypticborticuscryptic Member Posts: 2,478 Cryptic Developer
    edited October 2012
    NPC enemies do not possess the Willpower stat. So allowing the Stasis duration to be resistable will have no effect on PvE.
    Jeremy Randall
    Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
    "Play smart!"
  • leviathan99#2867 leviathan99 Member Posts: 7,747 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    NPC enemies do not possess the Willpower stat. So allowing the Stasis duration to be resistable will have no effect on PvE.

    Right.

    My point is more this:

    These weapons do substantially less damage than weapons that could be had in five minutes and less C-Store revenue. (Ie. I sell two master keys and buy a purple Dmg/CrHx2 Mk XI weapon.)

    They do damage not that far off from the other Lobi weapons, one of which has the perk of no resists and the other of which is immune to Borg adaptation.

    They are poorly equipped for NPC away teams, who fire blind or focus fire on a single target, neither of which are desirable when shots at stasis-held enemies are wasted shots. By being bad for NPC away teams, you'll sell fewer pistols. Somebody might want 5. There are great reasons to get 5 whips or even 5 crystal swords but 5 stasis phasers without intelligent people using them is a waste.

    They are obviously poorly equipped for STFs. Which wouldn't be an issue if they weren't poorly equipped for solo PvE as well. They're mediocre for 1v1 PvP and bad for 10 v 10 PvP because of the lacking firepower. They're really only good for small group PvP. They lack firepower and control for LOTS OF enemies and there's nothing you can do 1v1 aside from set up a flank or pop a consumable since the enemy is immune. At best, they're a big edge in 2v2 if one side has one of them. Again. not a great strategy for selling lots of these items.

    The pistol and the rifle have negative synergy. If half a team has pistols and half has rifles, the rifles' extra shots will be eaten up by enemies in stasis. If one person has both the pistol and the rifle equipped, they're sacrificing considerably for the look. Every pistol equipped in a team makes the rifle worse.

    In turn, the rifle is lackluster aside from a very situational use.

    The whip and the crystal sword were fun and flashy. With these, I'm not sure they have much vanity appeal and they trade firepower and mods for gimmick functionality that is rarely useful.

    Except for the stasis pistol in small group PvP. And you're fixing that.

    The other two Lobi items I routinely see in STFs, both for their flash and functionality. I tried the pistol in a Foundry mission and felt like I was taking a 35% firepower cut for a very minimal benefit. I suspect the rifle is better for PvE but still seems to be maybe a 35%+ reduction in DPS, on par with gimmick weapons (without the benefit of a universally reliable and useful gimmick) or melee weapons (without the shield pen or adaptation immunity).
  • leviathan99#2867 leviathan99 Member Posts: 7,747 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    I guess my thought is, for the 12 or so lockboxes I have to open for these, the other Lobi weapons are better and what I could get from the exchange (even factoring in EC I get back from selling everything) from just selling the master keys instead of opening the boxes is better.

    Here's a test:

    Buy 12 master keys. use the lobi to buy one of these weapons. Sell the contents. Figure the net adjusted price. You probably spend about 20 million EC for the keys and make about 4 million back, for about a 16 million EC net cost for the weapons.

    Now look at the weapons you could get on the exchange for around 16 million EC.

    Unless the Lobi weapons are competitive with that, they aren't cost effective as a motivating factor in opening the boxes. The other weapons have a much more immediate sense of novelty.
  • snoge00fsnoge00f Member Posts: 1,812 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Right.

    Except for the stasis pistol in small group PvP. And you're fixing that.

    The other two Lobi items I routinely see in STFs, both for their flash and functionality. I tried the pistol in a Foundry mission and felt like I was taking a 35% firepower cut for a very minimal benefit. I suspect the rifle is better for PvE but still seems to be maybe a 35%+ reduction in DPS, on par with gimmick weapons (without the benefit of a universally reliable and useful gimmick) or melee weapons (without the shield pen or adaptation immunity).


    We're in the PvE gameplay subforum now?

    It's not like you can't roll your face across the keyboard and win in PvE anyway.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • pug02pug02 Member Posts: 17 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    I'm attempting to find a way to make the Hold duration reduced by the target's Willpower stat.

    That, on its own, isn't difficult at all. The issue is that the Damage Immunity modifier lasts the same duration regardless of the player's Willpower.

    In other words, if you resist the Hold and reduce its duration from the 9sec it usually lasts, down to 5sec, you still get a full 9sec of Damage Immunity.

    This isn't an insurmountable issue, but it's also not a quick & easy fix. As soon as we can work around it, you will be capable of reducing the Stasis duration by investing into Willpower.

    Edited to add:
    On a somewhat related note, there is a bug with this weapon currently that may be causing the Immunity period to already outlast the Hold on some players. It's a known issue, and will be corrected soon.

    What about Hypo and Motion Accelerator? These are suppose to clear holds as well. Or even Equipment Diagnostic might be considered in this category.

    Here is the perfect one shot by an engineer using the stasis pistol. Place person in stasis, place mines and bomb down and time your orbital. Doesn't matter if person rolls they will die since a roll is 4.95 meters and bomb radius is further than that, and the orbital has a 7 meter radius. They will roll through the mines as well.

    For a tac with a good spec in Squad Command, they can use Tactical Initiative and can chain the stasis field. Once someone is in stasis, their stasis can be extended by shooting them with another stasis beam, before the stasis wears off. Tactical Initiative allows you to chain this. In fact the whole team can chain it under the influence of Tactical Initiative. There is no immunity given while you are in the stasis field so it can be maintained for as long as there is a fresh stasis beam.

    There must be some activateble that can break the hold that can offset the attacker's timing.

    It is almost as if these items are being rolled out without being completed. It is starting to smell of sloppy work. I am seeing it several sections of new Ground Items. But that is what happens when everything goes P2W I guess.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • robdmcrobdmc Member Posts: 1,619 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    NPC enemies do not possess the Willpower stat. So allowing the Stasis duration to be resistable will have no effect on PvE.

    I was wondering why cryptic hasn't created a pool of generic skill trees so all the npcs feel different. but still likely for that the strengths of each of the races. Then randomly apply a spec tree with each of the npcs that spawn. That way we can add a bit of strategy to the grind and make how we spec and choose gear a bit more meaningful.
  • guriphuguriphu Member Posts: 494 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    I'm attempting to find a way to make the Hold duration reduced by the target's Willpower stat.

    Not to belittle your intelligence, but... have you considered stuffing the immunity effect inside a While loop controlled by the Stun effect? This seems like a pretty elementary programming problem, from where I'm standing.
  • jheinigjheinig Member Posts: 364 Cryptic Developer
    edited October 2012
    guriphu wrote: »
    Not to belittle your intelligence, but... have you considered stuffing the immunity effect inside a While loop controlled by the Stun effect? This seems like a pretty elementary programming problem, from where I'm standing.

    That is not how our system architecture works.
  • falloutx23falloutx23 Member Posts: 456
    edited October 2012
    jheinig wrote: »
    That is not how our system architecture works.

    Im sorry, but is this a second dev in our forums?

    *ducks falling skies*

    feel free to elaborate how it "does" work. I know there are plenty of ppl that would be interested to hear
  • borticuscrypticborticuscryptic Member Posts: 2,478 Cryptic Developer
    edited October 2012
    There's no need to elaborate. Suffice it to say, I was able to input something akin to a "While Held" argument into the damage immunity effect, which means it will now be possible for players to resist the duration of this ability if they have a high Willpower score. We already had the tech, it was just a bit of a convoluted methodology.

    To be clear: The attack will never miss - it will always affect its target. The duration is all that will be changed.

    I also fixed the stacking issue mentioned above, where multiple pistols (or Tactical Initiative) could be used to permalock a player. Subsequent Stasis Fields used on a person already Out Of Phase will be discarded, once this change takes effect.
    Jeremy Randall
    Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
    "Play smart!"
  • falloutx23falloutx23 Member Posts: 456
    edited October 2012
    thanks again jeremy
  • hurleybirdhurleybird Member Posts: 909
    edited October 2012
    You're on a roll Jeremy. Any way you can apply the same vigor to siphon drones, and/or danube runabouts? I understand that the ideal fix might be complex and time consuming, but would it be possible to get some kind of temporary measure, like a simple reduction to the magnitude of the drain/hold in the meantime?
  • hurleybirdhurleybird Member Posts: 909
    edited October 2012
    Also...
    guriphu wrote: »
    Have you considered stuffing the immunity effect inside a While loop controlled by the Stun effect?
    jheinig wrote: »
    That is not how our system architecture works.
    I was able to input something akin to a "While Held" argument into the damage immunity effect.

    While (heh) I'm sure that Jeremy's solution ended being somewhat more complex than a simple while loop, I still find these three quotes to be very amusing when viewed together :P
  • borticuscrypticborticuscryptic Member Posts: 2,478 Cryptic Developer
    edited October 2012
    Technically jheinig was correct. But it's easier for me to call it that, then explain what I actually TRIBBLE together.
    Jeremy Randall
    Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
    "Play smart!"
  • guriphuguriphu Member Posts: 494 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Thanks for the quick fix. Will you still be interested in this if pvpers conclude that there's still an issue after the change gets implemented, or is this a one-and-done type of thing?
  • leviathan99#2867 leviathan99 Member Posts: 7,747 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    snoge00f wrote: »
    We're in the PvE gameplay subforum now?

    It's not like you can't roll your face across the keyboard and win in PvE anyway.

    My approach is that a PvP nerf and a PvP buff are needed as a combo reform for these.

    They are OP in PvP but that doesn't make them good in PvE.

    That's why, for a couple of days now, I've been saying to nerf them in PvP and buff them in non-PvP disrupting ways at the same time. I think it's an overall two part problem and illustrative of the misnomer than "good for PvP is good for PvE."

    These items in particular are awful for PvE. (White quality weapons, practically with a one-shot-per-enemy gimmick.) They are OP for PvP. I think a fix ideally addresses both points at once. And I think doing so MIGHT make them GOOD for PvP without being EITHER overpowered OR useless. In the vein of the sword or whip.
    guriphu wrote: »
    Not to belittle your intelligence, but... have you considered stuffing the immunity effect inside a While loop controlled by the Stun effect? This seems like a pretty elementary programming problem, from where I'm standing.

    My core approach would be to make the stun effect part of a set bonus proc for the two weapons. That means sacrificing any 3 piece set bonuses from other sets to get the stasis effect and making it a proc would reduce the reliability... and presumably free up balance budget to make the weapons more generally good or possessing of gimmicks that are less detrimental to PvP. I can see where something like a passive 5% runspeed increase would be edgy and different but have more limited effectiveness.

    I think this definitely needed a PvP nerf but it's one half of a balance question. I think PvP can and should be protected but that 29TH CENTURY weapons shouldn't feel less useful than 23rd.

    I'm not calling anyone out but the Econ 101 opportunity cost of this weapon is:

    16 million energy credits

    OR

    16 (!!!) Stun Disruptor Pistol Mk XII CritDx3 that does 10.2 more DPS

    OR

    3 Sonic Antiproton Sniper Rifles, purple quality, Mk XII

    It doesn't need to be overpowered but it's not going to sell in droves without a corresponding buff. Basic econ.
  • intrinsicalintrinsical Member Posts: 208 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    guriphu wrote: »
    Not to belittle your intelligence, but... have you considered stuffing the immunity effect inside a While loop controlled by the Stun effect? This seems like a pretty elementary programming problem, from where I'm standing.

    Just fyi, most MMO combat effects are designed as event-handlers that gets invoked when specific conditions happen during combat. And typically in an event handler, all that's done is usually something very short and concise, such as "if situation is true, do something", a quick bit of calculation, increment/decrement a number, setting or clearing a bitflag. There are typically no while loops that take several seconds to execute as that could hog the entire combat processing thread, possibly blocking other event handlers from triggering. :)
  • guriphuguriphu Member Posts: 494 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    This item is still broken (or broken in a new and exciting way, whichever you want to call it).
    http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?p=6079871#post6079871

    Furthermore, the complaints presented in the opening post are still valid. This weapon is too effective in PvP - to the point that I have seen at least two players specifically "soft-logging" (logging out without quitting the client, then logging back in to the same character, which restores you to your team and map at the default spawn point) to cheat their way out of its effect. One player is one whom I have not seen behave this way for a number of months, and the other I have never seen do this before. The ability to totally disable a player for so long is too strong.

    In my opinion, the degree of difficulty that Cryptic has faced in fixing this (problems with the secondary fire appear to have persisted through not one but two patches), combined with the extreme dissatisfaction of the PvP community with its over-high level of effectiveness, should be taken as evidence that this power should be fundamentally changed.

    I would recommend replacing the secondary fire entirely, with an existing power that has a very similar effect and design purpose, but works properly every time and has already been balanced for PvP, including the standard "half duration vs player" that is applied to every other Hold and Stun power in the game except for the Stasis Pistol. [Stasis Field]. I suspect most of the code should be portable.
  • thay8472thay8472 Member Posts: 6,376 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    add the statis field effect to the split beam rifle :D then 3 players can be zapped at once :O
    zx2t8tuj4i10.png
    Thank you for the Typhoon!
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