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Building Successful DPS Cruisers: Hellspray Build

ocp001ocp001 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
edited December 2012 in PvP Gameplay
"The Federation doesn't need a DPS Cruiser, and neither do I." -Lois Lane Stahl
"You wrote that the Federation doesn't need a DPS Cruiser but everyday I hear the playerbase crying for one." -PvPerman.

There is a mindset that a Federation cruiser is a glorified heal boat, with rare exception a sustained "support" damage dealer. Only existing to throw out some annoying phaser procs, and an extend shields to the greedy killing machine that is the escort. This mindset is nearly doctrine for some, and woe to those that might suggest otherwise.

Regretfully it's mostly correct. Star Trek Online was based on the "holy trinity" of MMO gaming. Healer/Damage/Controller. At best, whispered in the smoke filled back rooms of the PvP elite is that "fairly narrow tactical build" for cruisers that can produce results.

This is that build (or a close variant of it). This build is mostly optimized for the broadest collection of Federation Cruisers. I really should have put it out as such earlier. Ghostyandfrosty and others make very good points that there are more optimal builds for certain ships.


The Basics:

While the game may favor Federation cruisers as fat happy sheep waiting to be snatched by a hoard of vicous dragons (looking at you bugship escorts), we can do our best to bend the envelope, and mostly succeed.

What you will need is an Odessey, preferably Tactical or Science AND the Chevron Separation module. While much of what will be discussed can be used in most Federation Cruisers, let's face it, the Odessey's 1.15 shield modifier, and extra console slot and universal ltc. cmdr make it nearly pefect for the ever changing ring that is PvP. Lockbox ships not withstanding.

You must also be a Tactical officer. If you're trying to build a DPS Cruiser you probably already are. If you are not, I strongly insist that you read "The Ultimate Cruiser thread 3.0" Infact, I'd say it should be nearly required reading for anyone serious about making a cruiser that can melt a bug ship, enemy odessey, D'kora etc.

Bridge Officer Layout:
  • LTC(U): Engineer -> EptS 1, RSP 1, AUX2SIF 2
  • Ensign (U): Tactical -> HY 1 or BO 1 (use the appropriate weapon instead of a disruptor cannon/turret)
  • Lieutenant (T): TT 1, CRF 1
  • CMDR(E): ET 1, Aux2Bat1,EptS 3,DEM 3
  • Lieutanant (S): HE 1, FBP 1

DOFFS:
  • 3 Purple Quality Technicians
  • 2 Shield Distribution DOFFS (OR 2 SNB DOFFS)

Equipment:
  • 4 Disruptor Single Cannons MK XI* [ACC]x3 OR [ACC]x2 [CrtH]
  • Omega Deflector Mk XII
  • Omega Hyper Impulse Engine Mk XII
  • M.A.C.O. Resiliant Shield Array Mk XII
  • 4 Disruptor Turrets MK XI* [ACC]x3 OR [ACC]x2 [CrtH]

*Polarized Disruptors are also highly playable. In fact, I prefer them.
Devices: Shield Battery, Aux Battery, Red Matter Capacitor, Subspace Field Modulator
Engineering Consoles: Chevron Separation Console, Assimilated Module, Tachyokinetic Converter, Neutronium Alloy.
Science Consoles (Sci Odessey): 2x Flow Capacitors MK XII, 2x Particle Generators MK XII
Science Consoles (Tac Odessey): 2x Flow Capacitors MK XII, 1x Particle Generators MK XII
Tactical Consoles: Disruptor Induction Coils MK XII as many as you have slots for.


Putting it together:

If you are one of those people who mentally add up the cost of gear you already are into this setup for nearly 200 mil EC. If you want the capability to single handedly carry a match of average PUGS, or a poor/newbie premade then you're going to pay for it. Your performance will vary based on your ability to match (or exceed) the above.

Your defenses should be keybound in this manner, executing from left to right: Distribute shields, TT, EptS 1, Aux2Bat 1, EptS1, TT. I actually have this set so that as soon as I'm in combat it auto rotates continually. When configured in this manner you should only have a gap of 1 second where your EptS is not active. Auxillery 2 Battery is there to take off 30% of your cooldowns.

Your "Hellspray" should be bound to a key that activates GDF, APA, TacFleet, TacInitive, FOMM, CRF 1, RMC, and DEM III. If it multiplies or adds damage it should be activated with a few quick button presses. Those of you that favor the Galaxy X Dreadnought should already be used to this. Seconds count. If you adapt this build to the Dreadnought you'll find it complements the phaser lance nicely.

Your Feedback Pulse 1 can also be placed in there too, but I prefer to keep it on "manual". A fully Tac-buffed FBP 1 with full AUX should return a damage modifier of 1.1 to the attacker (VS. .28ish normally)

I usually put my power levels at 75/75/25/25 or 100/50/25/25 and throw batteries to keep my power levels as close to 125 as possible.

Strategy:

So now that we have fiendishly built and configured this ship lets go rush in guns blazing right?

Negative. Get a plan with your team. Someone call targets. Keep that "Hellspray" on safe and make an effort fight smart! Cannons don't do well at extreme range so keep your range under 5km, preferably 3km or less. If I see a fully buffed escort/cruiser combo coming at me it's time to punch an AUX battery and activate your buffs. As soon as you see that last damage buff activate, activate feedbackpulse. Your buffed cannon/DEM/Tetryon Glider/Disruptor proc debuff/FOMM/ with your combined feedback pulse should pop the escort (be it bug or not). If you separated (hense that Chevron console) you should dust that healer in warp plasma and finish them off. Expect approximately 30 seconds of heavy damage potential with a 3 min recovery, (much like a phaser lance might do...)

Does that mean we just run off and wait it out after spraying our load? Sometimes, if you're up against a team that's gunning hard for you. After I send my green spray out and (hopefully) killed off my attacker(s), I switch to a more defensive mode where I'm doing support damage with DEM III, CRF, and Tetryon Glider. Cooperating with my team's shot caller, or exploiting a weakened player that isn't on the teams radar. Throwing a minor heal here and there. Aux2Bat is making 1 copy of DEM, RSP, CRF, (and more) work like 2 for the most part.

Conclusion:

Does this build produce results? I'd say yes it does. I regularly do "escort level" damage and kills in all but the most vicious premade matches. Is it a "Selfish Build"? Certainly. Yet if you were to swap EWP with Extends 2 you're suddenly much less selfish. Equip Theta Radiation rather than a Flow Capacitor and you're suddenly a bit more jack of all trade with only minimal loss of Glider efficency.

It's surprisingly survivable, without being a zombie cruiser. I don't claim that it can't be tweaked for a little more burst from say tricobalt torpedos/mines. But it is a basis for those crying out for a cruiser that can kick TRIBBLE and survive.
Post edited by ocp001 on
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Comments

  • ocp001ocp001 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Test Results
    • TBR 1 and 2 with low AUX. (Courtesy of redricky)
      Result: Adds approximately 21k in total damage. I honestly found it often hard to gauge how effective it was due to kinetic resists etc
    • LTC(U) SCI Tac-Odyssey TB1, ST2 TBR2 (Courtesy of ghostyandfrosty)
      Result: IF you were to do this, I'd strongly recommend running 2x copies of EptS. RSP, for a cruiser, is just too good to give up.
    • Re-evaluate SDR gaps with 1x copy of EptS and EptX (courtesy of p2wsucks)
      Result: While it is very possible to run EptS 3 and another EptX ability with an Aux2bat build. It's just so much more tanky to run two copies of emergency to shields. I find that if a person was to replicate this build exactly as I have and rotated their keybinds for their defenses accordingly you'll do very good damage, but as a Tac in an Odyssey you just NEED the extra shield heal and resist.
  • ghostyandfrostyghostyandfrosty Member Posts: 864
    edited September 2012
    ocp001 wrote: »
    "The Federation doesn't need a DPS cruiser, and neither do I." -Lois Lane Stahl
    "You say you don't need a DPS cruiser but everyday I hear the playerbase crying for one." -PvPerman.

    There is a mindset that a Federation cruiser is a glorified heal boat, with rare exception a sustained "support" damage dealer. Only existing to throw out some annoying phaser procs, and an extend shields to the greedy killing machine that is the escort. This mindset is nearly doctrine for some, and woe to those that might suggest otherwise.

    Regretfully it's mostly correct. Star Trek Online was based on the "holy trinity" of MMO gaming. Healer/Damage/Controller. At best, whispered in the smoke filled back rooms of the PvP elite is that "fairly narrow tactical build" for cruisers that can produce results.

    This is that build (or a close variant of it).


    The Basics:

    While the game may favor Federation cruisers as fat happy sheep waiting to be snatched by a hoard of vicous dragons (looking at you bugship escorts), we can do our best to bend the envelope, and mostly succeed.

    What you will need is an Odessey, preferably Tactical or Science AND the Chevron Separation module. While much of what will be discussed can be used in most Federation Cruisers, let's face it, the Odessey's 1.15 shield modifier, and extra console slot and universal ltc. cmdr make it nearly pefect for the ever changing ring that is PvP. Lockbox ships not withstanding.

    You must also be a Tactical officer. If you're trying to build a DPS Cruiser you probably already are. If you are not, I strongly insist that you read "The Ultimate Cruiser thread 3.0" Infact, I'd say it should be nearly required reading for anyone serious about making a cruiser that can melt a bug ship, enemy odessey, D'kora etc.

    Bridge Officer Layout:
    • LTC(U): Engineer -> EptS 1, RSP 1, AUX2SIF
    • Ensign (U): Tactical -> TT 1
    • Lieutenant (T): TT 1, CRF 1
    • CMDR(E): EptS 1, Aux2Bat1,EWP1,DEM 3
    • Lieutanant (S): HE 1, FBP 1

    DOFFS:
    • 3 Purple Quality Technicians
    • 2 Shield Distribution DOFFS (OR 2 SNB DOFFS)

    Equipment:
    • 4 Disruptor Single Cannons MK XI [ACC]x3 OR [ACC]x2 [CrtH]
    • Omega Deflector Mk XII
    • Omega Hyper Impulse Engine Mk XII
    • M.A.C.O. Resiliant Shield Array Mk XII
    • 4 Disruptor Turrets MK XI [ACC]x3 OR [ACC]x2 [CrtH]

    Devices: Shield Battery, Aux Battery, Red Matter Capacitor, Subspace Field Modulator
    Engineering Consoles: Chevron Separation Console, Assimilated Module, EPS Flow Regulator, Neutronium Alloy.
    Science Consoles (Sci Odessey): 2x Flow Capacitors MK XII, 2x Particle Generators MK XII
    Science Consoles (Tac Odessey): 2x Flow Capacitors MK XII, 1x Particle Generators MK XII
    Tactical Consoles: Disruptor Induction Coils MK XII as many as you have slots for.


    Putting it together:

    If you are one of those people who mentally add up the cost of gear you already are into this setup for nearly 200 mil EC. If you want the capability to single handedly carry a match of average PUGS, or a poor/newbie premade then you're going to pay for it. Your performance will vary based on your ability to match (or exceed) the above.

    Your defenses should be keybound in this manner, executing from left to right: Distribute shields, TT, EptS 1, Aux2Bat 1, EptS1, TT. I actually have this set so that as soon as I'm in combat it auto rotates continually. When configured in this manner you should only have a gap of 1 second where your EptS is not active. Auxillery 2 Battery is there to take off 30% of your cooldowns.

    Your "Hellspray" should be bound to a key that activates GDF, APA, TacFleet, TacInitive, FOMM, CRF 1, RMC, and DEM III. If it multiplies or adds damage it should be activated with a few quick button presses. Those of you that favor the Galaxy X Dreadnought should already be used to this. Seconds count. If you adapt this build to the Dreadnought you'll find it complements the phaser lance nicely.

    Your Feedback Pulse 1 can also be placed in there too, but I prefer to keep it on "manual". A fully Tac-buffed FBP 1 with full AUX should return a damage modifier of 1 to the attacker (VS. .28ish normally)

    I usually put my power levels at 75/75/25/25 or 100/50/25/25 and throw batteries to keep my power levels as close to 125 as possible.

    Strategy:

    So now that we have fiendishly built and configured this ship lets go rush in guns blazing right?

    Negative. Get a plan with your team. Someone call targets. Keep that "Hellspray" on safe and make an effort fight smart! Cannons don't do well at extreme range so keep your range under 5km, preferably 3km or less. If I see a fully buffed escort/cruiser combo coming at me it's time to punch an AUX battery and activate your buffs. As soon as you see that last damage buff activate, activate feedbackpulse. Your buffed cannon/DEM/Tetryon Glider/Disruptor proc debuff/FOMM/ with your combined feedback pulse should pop the escort (be it bug or not). If you separated (hense that Chevron console) you should dust that healer in warp plasma and finish them off. Expect approximately 30 seconds of heavy damage potential with a 3 min recovery, (much like a phaser lance might do...)

    Does that mean we just run off and wait it out after spraying our load? Sometimes, if you're up against a team that's gunning hard for you. After I send my green spray out and (hopefully) killed off my attacker(s), I switch to a more defensive mode where I'm doing support damage with DEM III, CRF, and Tetryon Glider. Cooperating with my team's shot caller, or exploiting a weakened player that isn't on the teams radar. Throwing a minor heal here and there. Aux2Bat is making 1 copy of DEM, RSP, CRF, (and more) work like 2 for the most part.

    Conclusion:

    Does this build produce results? I'd say yes it does. I regularly do "escort level" damage and kills in all but the most vicious premade matches. Is it a "Selfish Build"? Certainly. Yet if you were to swap EWP with Extends 2 you're suddenly much less selfish. Equip Theta Radiation rather than a Flow Capacitor and you're suddenly a bit more jack of all trade with only minimal loss of Glider efficency.

    It's surprisingly survivable, without being a zombie cruiser. I don't claim that it can't be tweaked for a little more burst from say tricobalt torpedos/mines. But it is a basis for those crying out for a cruiser that can kick TRIBBLE and survive.

    First, I have to applaud you for the new creative nick name for Dan The Stupid Stahl. You simply must keep me apprised of any cute nick names you give the other devs.

    What can I say, I love smoke filled backrooms. :P Don't worry the cops will leave the room soon enough.

    See, I can't recommend the Oddy in good conscious for the tac captain. It's simply Too Fat. and using the Chevron sep console, has a cool down still. Not only that it mitigates the Oddys best advantage of having 10 consoles vs 9.
    Even with the chevron sep the ship is still going to be slower than an Excelsior. It's more or less the equal of a AC refit (a much better tac cruiser for the money than an Oddy. I'd go so far as to say it's actually as good for the money as the old Excelsior cost was. The broadside torp and gas consoles are that spiffy). The Exclesior is quick enough to use Cannons to crank DEM and Glider 24/7.

    With the LT Sci you unfortunately are still going to need TSS2 to sustain yourself properly during focus periods. FBP1 also, while impressive when fully auxed and buffed it kind of cuts into the best perks or Aux to Batt. I'd actually suggest replacing that with ST2, since it gives a very strong flash heal for shields that is not aux dependent.

    Also, you need CRF2 to really make a tac cannon cruiser scream. The ship you've made is an aux to battery, Assault Cruiser with a better shield modifier. It's not going to Crank like a TacXcelsior/Galor will. It's a little more tanky but meh.

    There will be more fed tac cruiser setups coming in my thread by the way :) I've just been lazy on the testing aspect of things here lately. (that and I've had some surprise expenses come up which have prevented me from acquiring the AC Refit)
  • p2wsucksp2wsucks Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    I'd remove GDF and FoMM from your alpha keybinds. Imo, you should use these selectively. A low hull GDF is much better than using it w/nearly all hull. FoMM is cleared by TT, so pay attention to target's TT cycles and use when there's an opening.

    I could be wrong, but doesn't Aux2Sif but heads w/Aux2Batt? You may want ET instead, it helps clear VM as well. You have 2 EPTS1, you only need 1 EPTS. If you use ET1 instead of a ETPS1, lose the other EPTS1 for EPTW1 (for times you aren't under fire to boost your damage or recover downed weapon system), you open up your lt com Eng for EPTS3.

    Personally I prefer HE2 to TSS2, but to each their own. You could also use a Sci Team in place of TSS. If you want you can try TB1 HE2 for times you don't need the xtra defense, but could use the movement/defense debuff on agile targets.

    In any case if you're using more than TT, unbind that as well.

    Edit: I'd also have an option to swap cvs1 for crf1. The damag dropp off isn't that large and you spread your damage and tet glider procs around.
    [Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
    Random Quote from Kerrat
    "Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
    C&H Fed banter
  • ocp001ocp001 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    What can I say I had this vision of Branflakes and Tumerboy wandering around with Lex Luthor...

    Believe it or not, I've been testing this design for the last few weeks in PvP with the rest of TRIBBLE. (possibly to the point of harassing Kedric, and the rest) and I'd have to say that while this girl is fat, it produces the results.

    I actually think that the assault cruiser refit is the WORST tac cruiser of the bunch. At least the G-X can cloak hide in shame. The Regent is just there... mocking you with what might have been. Granted I played with it a bit and tinkered with the one universal slot. Perhaps I'll take another peak at it.

    As for CRF1 vs 2 on this build, I think you'd be surprisingly impressed by how well it actually does. Popping an Aux Battery right before FBP1 activates is quite a show stopper, if timed so that Aux2Bat triggers a couple seconds later, well that's just more power to spread around.

    Very true that the Galor will likely produce higher end numbers, I may begrudgingly have to give it to the Excelsior as well. Yet most of the Kirks I see want to fly Assault cruisers, Galaxy X's and Odesseys.
  • ghostyandfrostyghostyandfrosty Member Posts: 864
    edited September 2012
    ocp001 wrote: »
    What can I say I had this vision of Branflakes and Tumerboy wandering around with Lex Luthor...

    Believe it or not, I've been testing this design for the last few weeks in PvP with the rest of TRIBBLE. (possibly to the point of harassing Kedric, and the rest) and I'd have to say that while this girl is fat, it produces the results.

    I actually think that the assault cruiser refit is the WORST tac cruiser of the bunch. At least the G-X can cloak hide in shame. The Regent is just there... mocking you with what might have been. Granted I played with it a bit and tinkered with the one universal slot. Perhaps I'll take another peak at it.

    As for CRF1 vs 2 on this build, I think you'd be surprisingly impressed by how well it actually does. Popping an Aux Battery right before FBP1 activates is quite a show stopper, if timed so that Aux2Bat triggers a couple seconds later, well that's just more power to spread around.

    Very true that the Galor will likely produce higher end numbers, I may begrudgingly have to give it to the Excelsior as well. Yet most of the Kirks I see want to fly Assault cruisers, Galaxy X's and Odesseys.

    I dunno. that Refit does have a LtCmdr tac. It's an excelsior with 2 toys thrown in the deal. I posted my TacXcelsior Aux to batt burner build already. I'll be working on my second coming post for it soon.. (which requires the broadside torp, and the met gas console.. yeah it's expensive as all get out but if you already have had the excelsior for a while...) I just wish the Refit had had a lt tac slot.
  • redrickyredricky Member Posts: 1,004 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    2x TT and EPTS is a waste on an Aux2Batt build. You can get by with 1 copy, that's the entire point of running something other than distro doffs. Take ET1 for debuffs or, better still, EPTW to help DEM.

    FBP is a trap. Try TBR after your Aux2Batt. Tac buffed it will give good damage and killing your Aux first means it won't push them away so more tics will hit them. Or if they're running Omega they'll eat more tics.
    _______________
    CommanderDonatra@Capt.Sisko: ahhh is it supposed to do that?
    Norvo Tigan@dontdrunkimshoot: hell ya, maybe
  • ocp001ocp001 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    p2wsucks wrote: »
    I'd remove GDF and FoMM from your alpha keybinds. Imo, you should use these selectively. A low hull GDF is much better than using it w/nearly all hull. FoMM is cleared by TT, so pay attention to target's TT cycles and use when there's an opening.

    That is a very good point. I use it all at once because I'm simply trying to debuff the resist of the target as fast as I can while buffing the damage values. Now I may hold off on springing the alpha until my hull is at 50% then trigger it all at once.

    I could be wrong, but doesn't Aux2Sif but heads w/Aux2Batt? You may want ET instead, it helps clear VM as well. You have 2 EPTS1, you only need 1 EPTS. If you use ET1 instead of a ETPS1, lose the other EPTS1 for EPTW1 (for times you aren't under fire to boost your damage or recover downed weapon system), you open up your lt com Eng for EPTS3.

    Aux2Sif doesn't butt heads as much as become low powered. If Aux2Bat goes off I punch a battery (or RMC) and then use it. It actually conflicts less than using 2 TT and ET. Of course once could use 1 TT only and say Overload 1 or HY 1. Now the case on using 2x EptS 1. A cruiser just doesn't have the boom and zoom to get out of it's own way. A standard aux2bat build with 2 different powers leaves a coverage gap of around 5 seconds (IIRC), by using 2 copies you have a 1 second gap. This ensures that you always have the SDR from EptS operational.

    Personally I prefer HE2 to TSS2, but to each their own. You could also use a Sci Team in place of TSS. If you want you can try TB1 HE2 for times you don't need the xtra defense, but could use the movement/defense debuff on agile targets.

    Totally right on the Tractor Beam/ HE2 combo. I was going to go into some depth later about getting more from that LTC(U) slot.


    Edit: I'd also have an option to swap cvs1 for crf1. The damage drop off isn't that large and you spread your damage and tet glider procs around.

    I always struggle with this one, CSV vs. CRF. To me spreading the DPS around like that seems counter productive. A ship is 100% functional in it's ability to kill you whether it has 1% or 100% hull. I always believed that the elimination of 1 target is more valuable. Yet I can SEE how this could work in a team environment.

    Replys in green! And I just wanted to say thanks for all the advice from everyone.
  • ocp001ocp001 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    ... I'll be working on my second coming post for it soon.. (which requires the broadside torp, and the met gas console.. yeah it's expensive as all get out but if you already have had the excelsior for a while...) I just wish the Refit had had a lt tac slot.

    I was under the impression that the console worked only in assault cruisers (no Excelsior). Seriously I read your cruiser thread every time there is a new post.

    @Redricky I'm Totally going to try TBR over the weekend. That is some serious out of the box thinking.

    If either of you are on this week, throw me a line in-game @joseph.b I'm always looking to learn and improve!
  • ghostyandfrostyghostyandfrosty Member Posts: 864
    edited September 2012
    ocp001 wrote: »
    I was under the impression that the console worked only in assault cruisers (no Excelsior). Seriously I read your cruiser thread every time there is a new post.

    @Redricky I'm Totally going to try TBR over the weekend. That is some serious out of the box thinking.

    If either of you are on this week, throw me a line in-game @joseph.b I'm always looking to learn and improve!

    I'm not sure anymore. I've heard it both ways from people I normally trust :)

    I do know now for sure the broadside torp works on the Excelsior though.

    Yeah TBR is Insane when tac buffed. if I were going to run a Ltcmdr sci tac oddy I'd def use TBR2 especially with aux to batt.
  • p2wsucksp2wsucks Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    ocp001 wrote: »
    Replys in green! And I just wanted to say thanks for all the advice from everyone.

    .7 * 45 = 31.5 seconds vs 30 seconds when using 2 copies. EPTS3 >>> EPTS1 for not just the power, but the resists as well.

    Tbo, i'm not sure what the cone is on CVS w/DHCs (what I normally run) vs w/Single Cannons if there's any difference at all. But, you would be spreading your 1 minute DEM3 and always on Tet Glider procs around keep in mind range doesn't matter w/these procs (or at least the Tet Glider proc not sure on DEM). I haven't seen the numbers on CVS1 vs CRF1 to know the difference in terms of A. Raw Damage and B. Number of Weapon Fires and how that impacts your weapon's power which in turn may lower your proc damage.

    I tend to think of DPS cruisers as more AoE high pressure damage allowing Escorts to have more than 1 potential weakened target as well as making heal boats have to choose who to use repairs on. It's why I think they fit KDF team playstyle environment better generally speaking. But, for PuG single target may be better.
    [Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
    Random Quote from Kerrat
    "Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
    C&H Fed banter
  • ocp001ocp001 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    p2wsucks wrote: »
    .7 * 45 = 31.5 seconds vs 30 seconds when using 2 copies. EPTS3 >>> EPTS1 for not just the power, but the resists as well.

    Added to my list of testing this week. Thank you!

    Tbo, i'm not sure what the cone is on CVS w/DHCs (what I normally run) vs w/Single Cannons if there's any difference at all. But, you would be spreading your 1 minute DEM3 and always on Tet Glider procs around keep in mind range doesn't matter w/these procs (or at least the Tet Glider proc not sure on DEM). I haven't seen the numbers on CVS1 vs CRF1 to know the difference in terms of A. Raw Damage and B. Number of Weapon Fires and how that impacts your weapon's power which in turn may lower your proc damage.

    I'm hazy about the cone of fire as well, but I thought that the difference in damage was either 10% or 15% between equivalent ranks with CRF being higher than CSV.

    I tend to think of DPS cruisers as more AoE high pressure damage allowing Escorts to have more than 1 potential weakened target as well as making heal boats have to choose who to use repairs on. It's why I think they fit KDF team playstyle environment better generally speaking. But, for PuG single target may be better.

    I will totally concede that the KDF has Battle Cruisers on lock-down, better in nearly every single way.

    I look forward to trying this out.
  • ghostyandfrostyghostyandfrosty Member Posts: 864
    edited September 2012
    Once we get the kinks of this setup ironed out, I will be adding this to my Cruiser 3.0 thread's table of contents.
  • p2wsucksp2wsucks Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Once we get the kinks of this setup ironed out, I will be adding this to my Cruiser 3.0 thread's table of contents.

    I've got a similar layout for Fleet Torchat

    http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=5498871&postcount=12

    It's the 2nd build listed. I'm using disrupters atm, but I'm thinking to be more effective (but a bit abusive) polarons would be better. It may overlap w/what you've already got listed, I can go into more detail w/it if you think it'd be helpful and not redundant.
    [Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
    Random Quote from Kerrat
    "Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
    C&H Fed banter
  • ghostyandfrostyghostyandfrosty Member Posts: 864
    edited September 2012
    p2wsucks wrote: »
    I've got a similar layout for Fleet Torchat

    http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=5498871&postcount=12

    It's the 2nd build listed. I'm using disrupters atm, but I'm thinking to be more effective (but a bit abusive) polarons would be better. It may overlap w/what you've already got listed, I can go into more detail w/it if you think it'd be helpful and not redundant.

    You could go either way on the energy type really. Heck you could even go Tetryons on it.

    Whip up a post with the aux to batt by itself and I'll move it into my TOC. Personally I've always been a believer that a ship that doesn't have a cmdr tac should have some form of burst damage so you can more efficiently use your ensigns.

    So you could drop APO for CSV2, drop a CSV1 and put a HY2 (In your case I'd go Spread 2) in.

    What you have will work okay, but imo it doesn't do enough to maximize the tac slots it has. (also with the aux to batt then you could drop the second TT for a THY1 or Torpspread 1 going with the opposite of what you put in the LT)
  • therealsivartherealsivar Member Posts: 195 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    A nice read, clearly you've put thought into this though I don't agree with everything.

    I'll preface by saying that I don't like cannons on Federation cruisers. Though I know that it can work and be done very well, I'm really not a fan of loading cannons onto a Federation cruiser as the turn rate is very low and you bottleneck yourself into short burst sessions to make it work without additional Attack Patterns that you get on Escorts. It's much easier to run 7-8 beams and trying to maintain high dps as opposed to cycling alpha and beta strikes every 2-5 minutes.

    That said, I'll move on.

    ----

    One problem that I have with your build is that it's fairly squishy: you only have 2 copies of EPtS1 and that's just not enough to protect you against high burst and high dps ships that are coming at you. Yes you can back people off with FBP for 15 seconds under certain conditions, then RSP after that if you're really getting pressured after, and BFI as a last resort if the pressure keeps up but eventually you're going to hit a vacuum when all you've got is the EPtS1 up.

    If I'm an escort or a Raptor or a BoP or any other fast/quick ship then I'll just sit on your TRIBBLE and keep you from being able to significantly dps me and since you're in a Federation Cruiser there is very little that you can do about it with you strong weapons set to 180 arc and only 1 way to slow down the target.

    Furthermore, Aux2Batt still puts your EPtS on cooldown, so if you time anything wrong or get pressed to capacity (or beyond) then the skill that you're counting on to keep everything running quickly will be completely unavailable to you or will probably end up waiting to respawn.

    -

    In regards to FomM, you really really have to hold off on it until you know your target's Tac team(s) are on cooldown otherwise it's wasted. It's not always easy to tell when it's available to your target, but I'm simply trying to say you should be very careful where you use it.

    As for GDF, I'm of a bit different school of thought for its use, particularly on cruisers.

    Escorts have sufficient additional damage buffs from Attack Patterns and higher quality buffs that you can save GDF for when you're TRIBBLE is about to be grass. However on a cruiser, particularly a cruiser that's focused on bursting with a limited window you really should be more open with it's use, and so long as you're not going head first in against a Sci Captain you should run GDF as a regular part of your alpha for the added burst. Yes I know it's only 25% when you're at full health, but you NEED the added damage against heavy or fast ships to make them feel extreme enough pressure to break off their attack and heal.

    Anyway those are just a couple initial thoughts.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Support a KDF equivalent to the Vesta Here
  • ocp001ocp001 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Once we get the kinks of this setup ironed out, I will be adding this to my Cruiser 3.0 thread's table of contents.

    Would be very happy to contribute to the ultimate cruiser thread. Give me a couple days to run through all the suggestions.
  • redrickyredricky Member Posts: 1,004 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    ocp001 wrote: »
    I was under the impression that the console worked only in assault cruisers (no Excelsior). Seriously I read your cruiser thread every time there is a new post.

    @Redricky I'm Totally going to try TBR over the weekend. That is some serious out of the box thinking.

    If either of you are on this week, throw me a line in-game @joseph.b I'm always looking to learn and improve!

    I can't take credit for it, the beauty of a tac buffed TBR was made clear by me eating one. I think it was drunk or Bob the Yak, but I'm not sure. And using it when Omega is up was from one of those smoky room discussions. I just ride the coattails of the innovators.

    Oh, and when I said FBP is a trap, I meant for the user. All it does is make the other guy shoot at your mate. It's so tempting because it can be tac buffed, but really, I'd stay away from it.
    _______________
    CommanderDonatra@Capt.Sisko: ahhh is it supposed to do that?
    Norvo Tigan@dontdrunkimshoot: hell ya, maybe
  • orondisorondis Member Posts: 1,447 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    I've tried a similar set up in the past repeatedly and while I've found it moderately successful, a few problems show up.

    1 - The more maneuverable escorts will just get behind you, especially when it's a ship like the Odyssey. Also to keep something in your arc will generally mean slowing down, which can be deadly for a tac cruiser.

    2 - Put a tractor beam on a tac cruiser and it becomes a sitting duck that's easier to blow away then most escorts. Seriously an escorts survivability is much higher if it has 2x APO.

    3 - The biggest flaw with a cannon build I've found is the Borg set and shield doff procs. Cannons set them off like crazy.

    4 - The build is cannon fodder for bugs.

    5 - The aux2bat cooldown ability is great, but you have to remember to keep on hitting it at every available chance otherwise it becomes a liability. This also causes a slight problem due to the aux power drain, which can only be countered by an aux battery every so often.

    Basically if the other team was made up of anything but escorts (or their escorts are poor), then yes this is a great build.

    Now yes this wouldn't be a problem as part of a premade, but then nor would flying a tier 3 ship.

    On your actual set up.

    1 - I'd get rid of EWP1. Unless your build has the immobilize doff or the target is a newbie it'll have little effect. Eng/Cruisers don't rely that much on maneuverability and the majority of escorts have at least one APO.

    2 - FBP1 only does anything noticeable when buffed by tac powers so it's a waste, much better to use TSS2.

    3 - Unless you're going to have crf on a cycle, it's not really worth taking cannons. Much better with an Excelsior or Regent.

    4 - No reason to have an EPS flow regulator unless you're thinking about quickly switching power settings.
    Previously Alendiak
    Daizen - Lvl 60 Tactical - Eclipse
    Selia - Lvl 60 Tactical - Eclipse
  • darkfader1988darkfader1988 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Finally! some talks about dedicated spike damage per second cruisers i just got killed by one ;O ummmmmmm

    Whats so hard that it needs a whole tutorial?

    8x Beams
    Eptsx2, EptWx2, FaWx2/BOx2

    Full weapons power.

    Rotate your cruiser for broadsiding.

    Put your weapons on autofire.

    Done?

    Or ... am i missing something? Yes please put the Tac captain in a Star Cruiser.


    Really tho you can never do damage close to a Tac escort, Not sure what Tac escorts you compared it with...
    Ah yeh, the DEM and other hull bleed effects, that can still get yourself close to a good escorts 'damage' in the scoreboard, but practically there is a huge difference never the less. Lots of 'fake' dmg as we call it.


    MT-
    MT - Sad Pandas
  • razellisrazellis Member Posts: 176 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    The build sounds interesting but I had a recent bad experience with a similar setup.

    I used phaser weapons to double the DEM3's bonus and cycled EPTW1 and EPTS3 with 2xTT1 and CRF1. The Omega deflector and engine was on there for tetryon glider and the damage bonuses provided by the deflector. It took the opposing team all of 30 seconds to avoid my front half and just focus on my back 90 where the 4 turrets couldn't even scratch their shields.

    So far the best "spike" damage build I've seen in action is a buddies tac captain in his Regent. He uses a 4 beam+ 2 cannon broadside (phaser[accx2] or antiproton[borg] depending on conditions) the regent torpedo in the front and a quantum in the back, all set to autofire with PW Doffs. He cycles EPTW1, EPTS2, TT1 and T:spread 3 to T:Spread 2 for an impressive amount of down stream torpedoes and survivability. He also spams his tractor beam 1 to keep ships in his "sweet spot". Attack Pattern Alpha and T:spread 3 are absolute havoc on a carrier's pets, he'll generally wipe out most of the opposing teams carrier pets and fleet support ships in one cycle of T:spread 3 and T:spread 2.

    The last I talked to him he was using a MACO shield and 3 peice borg but was considering switching over to the Jem'hadar deflector and engine for the bonus weapon power and polaron weapons or the Omega deflector and engine for tetryon glider.

    Sorry if all that was off topic.
  • ocp001ocp001 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Finally! some talks about dedicated spike damage per second cruisers i just got killed by one ;O ummmmmmm

    Whats so hard that it needs a whole tutorial?

    8x Beams
    Eptsx2, EptWx2, FaWx2/BOx2

    Full weapons power.

    Rotate your cruiser for broadsiding.

    Put your weapons on autofire.

    Done?

    Or ... am i missing something? Yes please put the Tac captain in a Star Cruiser.


    Really tho you can never do damage close to a Tac escort, Not sure what Tac escorts you compared it with...
    Ah yeh, the DEM and other hull bleed effects, that can still get yourself close to a good escorts 'damage' in the scoreboard, but practically there is a huge difference never the less. Lots of 'fake' dmg as we call it.


    MT-

    I can only shake my head and smile when I see someone of such ability and talent prefer to troll the same old "please put a tac in a star cruiser lulz" line. Or is it "River coil" these days? I'm not really going to go back and forth in some pointless ego match, about how great this build is and whether it's the end all be all. All builds have strengths and weaknesses. You'll either like this and tweak it, or you'll troll it.

    Perhaps you might consider putting out your own build? Since you asked, I compare my performance, kills to damage, to escorts such as those in Nova Core, TRIBBLE., 528th, -Apocalypse-, and other long term PvPers.

    Good works stand on their own merit. Where are yours?
  • ocp001ocp001 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    orondis wrote: »
    I've tried a similar set up in the past repeatedly and while I've found it moderately successful, a few problems show up.

    1 - The more maneuverable escorts will just get behind you, especially when it's a ship like the Odyssey. Also to keep something in your arc will generally mean slowing down, which can be deadly for a tac cruiser.

    Maneuverability is always an issue with any Federation Cruiser, even the Excelsior is susceptible to being chased down. Yet there is a wide variety of tricks and tactics to shake off an escort (some better than others)

    2 - Put a tractor beam on a tac cruiser and it becomes a sitting duck that's easier to blow away then most escorts. Seriously an escorts survivability is much higher if it has 2x APO.

    3 - The biggest flaw with a cannon build I've found is the Borg set and shield doff procs. Cannons set them off like crazy.

    More often than not, I've found that even if the Borg Proc activates the shear amount of damage applied to target overwhelms them.

    4 - The build is cannon fodder for bugs.

    While the bug is formidable, I'd have to disagree, When it comes to bugs, fleet defiant, patrol escorts, I'll say that I've had great success popping them. However it's more often about who's flying the ship. Most of the time they disengage and come back around a minute or two later.

    5 - The aux2bat cooldown ability is great, but you have to remember to keep on hitting it at every available chance otherwise it becomes a liability. This also causes a slight problem due to the aux power drain, which can only be countered by an aux battery every so often.

    Very true. To mitigate this I rotate aux2bat with my emergency shields so that I never have to remember to push the button. RMC, Aux, Bat, and team batteries are some of the tricks I use to work around the drain.

    Basically if the other team was made up of anything but escorts (or their escorts are poor), then yes this is a great build.

    Now yes this wouldn't be a problem as part of a premade, but then nor would flying a tier 3 ship.



    On your actual set up.

    1 - I'd get rid of EWP1. Unless your build has the immobilize doff or the target is a newbie it'll have little effect. Eng/Cruisers don't rely that much on maneuverability and the majority of escorts have at least one APO.

    Yes I've debated with myself a bit on EWP1. While the DoT is very nice, I think that it would be better to run Theta Radiation (removing an EPS console), and switching it for either extends 2 or EptS 3.

    2 - FBP1 only does anything noticeable when buffed by tac powers so it's a waste, much better to use TSS2.

    I was very much in this line of thought for a long time. I found that as one approaches the Shield Damage Resist cap, the less effective abilities like TSS2 become. It's a great shield heal, and team skill but for the damage resist it grants your shields after rotating EptS 3, 125 shield power etc. I found myself getting returns of less than +5% SDR. Feedback pulse in an Aux2Bat build has great uptime, and direct hull damage no matter what position your target is firing on you from. Granted I'm still working the timing of it out.


    3 - Unless you're going to have crf on a cycle, it's not really worth taking cannons. Much better with an Excelsior or Regent.

    Using CRF on cycle. Totally. Wouldn't ever suggest otherwise. Aux2bat to the rescue. Chevron Separated the Odyssey performs better than expected.

    4 - No reason to have an EPS flow regulator unless you're thinking about quickly switching power settings.

    replies in green, your insights are appreciated!
  • ocp001ocp001 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Alright, After 4 hours of Pug FvK, FvF matches and some note taking I have the following observations.

    Tac buffed TBR2 will grant about a 2k in damage per pulse with 5aux. 20k total to 3 targets if you keep them all in the same place. Engine power drain doff doesn't seem to be all that great when combined with it. TBR is a good synergy with Aux2Batt for DPS application.

    EptS3 cycling. With one copy and how cryptic worked their cooldown timers, it still results in a 4-5 second gap when you have no resist. This was tested by triggering EptS3 and then immediately tripping aux2bat as it became available. I did this for 5 minutes straight.

    By rotating EptS1 and EptS3 you have a 1 second gap. Granted your resist isn't as high and your aux to bat will proc less. I am leaning toward this design since it affords better survival.

    Especially with TT rotating. I REALLY do enjoy ET and ST. However I think part of my success with this has to be from rotating 2x TT. So many skilled players have observed jumping on the aft end of a DPS Odyssey is a death sentence but I find myself wandering all over space, seldom worried.

    Tractor Beam: With Graviton Pulse, Theta, EWP, and more I'd have to say that I'd prefer those abilities to TB. Better to throw on a ST (for when you've been subnuked).

    Will put out a modified build in the next day or two.
  • ocp001ocp001 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Finalized "basic build" Even with the bugs in DEM and CRF/CSV this build will still produce results.
  • bitemepwebitemepwe Member Posts: 6,760 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Saving for my fin Tac build. (for what it may be worth)
    Leonard Nimoy, Spock.....:(

    R.I.P
  • dontdrunkimshootdontdrunkimshoot Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    ocp001 wrote: »
    Finalized "basic build" Even with the bugs in DEM and CRF/CSV this build will still produce results.

    currently DEM stops doing extra damage wile CRF/CSV/FAW is on, keep that in mind
  • ghostyandfrostyghostyandfrosty Member Posts: 864
    edited September 2012
    Oh dear god. weddings are so so OP.

    BTW, never hook up with someone at a wedding. Especially if her boyfriend is in the next room.
  • dontdrunkimshootdontdrunkimshoot Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Oh dear god. weddings are so so OP.

    BTW, never hook up with someone at a wedding. Especially if her boyfriend is in the next room.

    sounds like my kind of wedding! all the ones ive been to all the chicks are ether JB, grannies, or toooo religious.

    so, playa vs playa? :D
  • knockyknocky Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    DEM3?

    How do you get DEM3 as a Tac cpt?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • ussenterpisezussenterpisez Member Posts: 163 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    I'm not trying to be rude, but how do people continue to produce such appalling builds. I'm flabbergasted!
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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