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Tholians

alexindcobraalexindcobra Member Posts: 608
edited September 2012 in Federation Discussion
If the Tholians are supposed to be some type of advanced race, why do they look like naked gummy spiders? You would think, as much as Cryptic like to show their art, that the Devs would design some type of clothes or armor for these creatures. Give them a weapon, for crying out loud. Stop this "Harry Potter," magic zapping TRIBBLE.

What makes a race advance is that they have the use technology and not just natural abilities. Whales are intelligent beings but they are not an advanced race because they can't wage war, or build vessels and weapons to protect themselves from human pochers.
Post edited by alexindcobra on

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  • baudlbaudl Member Posts: 4,060 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    last i looked they were using spaceships.

    the picture of the romulan colonie, on the STO homepage it clearly shows an tholian in some sort of EV suit.
    On nukara they wouldn't need one anyway, since it is the klimate they prefer.
    The weapons they use may be build into them (cyborgs)

    Apparently it is a design decission, you don't like it...some others may like it. Myself i'm a bit disappointed since i wanted to see a tholian homeworld. See the architecture, maybe board their ships.
    Same was with the breen...in DS9 there was so much speculation about the breen homeworld, and you never got to see it. In STO there would have been the opportunity, to give this peoples a more solid spot in the universe.

    in case of the tholians, they are cave dwellers...so their citys might be just giant cave complexes as dipicted on nukara.
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  • grylakgrylak Member Posts: 1,594 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Tholians looked like that in the show (Enterprise In A Mirror Darkly).


    As for advanced, maybe their weapons look magical because they are technologically advanced. Science always looks like magic to a technologically evolved inferior race. And maybe they have natural defenses, like those people from the TNG series 1 episode who can create a natural electric field (I watched that episode last night). So why not use their natural weapons?
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  • hevachhevach Member Posts: 2,777 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    grylak wrote: »
    Tholians looked like that in the show (Enterprise In A Mirror Darkly).


    As for advanced, maybe their weapons look magical because they are technologically advanced. Science always looks like magic to a technologically evolved inferior race. And maybe they have natural defenses, like those people from the TNG series 1 episode who can create a natural electric field (I watched that episode last night). So why not use their natural weapons?

    In the same episode they were able to generate short range subspace transmissions and energy fields with their bodies, and it was vaguely implied in DS9 that Tholian silk was a more literal term than, say, Asian silk. The only new thing STO really has them doing without apparent technology is their radiation beam attack, which considering their environment would be akin to humans spraying water out of their mouths. We're biologically equipped to do it, we're pretty much immune to hurting ourselves or each other doing it, but it would be lethal if we were fighting an enemy who was harmed by water the way most humanoids are harmed by radiation.
  • alexindcobraalexindcobra Member Posts: 608
    edited September 2012
    Spiders make silk, not the silk you wear. Thats what you get stuck in when the Tholians through silk grenades. Those are natural abilitiies, but that doesn't explain why they are nake gummy spiders. Also, if they are shooting electric discharges, then that would not follow science because electric plasma disharges don't shoot straight and are eratic. They only would be able to hit the nearest conductor which can't be more than 20 meters away. The military is reserching how to make plasma discharge weapons but learn of the flaw of its unpridictable path and limited range, so it would be used as a countermeasure against IED's instead of an offensive weapon.

    You can't compare a show with a low budget and lack of CGI to make up for graphics in a game. "Enterprise," had a very low budget and was cancelled because they could make enough money. The show was too boring.

    On how to make the Tholians look more technologically advance would make them like on that picture on the main page. Is that too hard to make in the game? Hell, the Undine has armor even though they use nature abilities to attack you.
  • ashkrik23ashkrik23 Member Posts: 10,809 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Spiders make silk, not the silk you wear. Thats what you get stuck in when the Tholians through silk grenades. Those are natural abilitiies, but that doesn't explain why they are nake gummy spiders. Also, if they are shooting electric discharges, then that would not follow science because electric plasma disharges don't shoot straight and are eratic. They only would be able to hit the nearest conductor which can't be more than 20 meters away. The military is reserching how to make plasma discharge weapons but learn of the flaw of its unpridictable path and limited range, so it would be used as a countermeasure against IED's instead of an offensive weapon.

    You can't compare a show with a low budget and lack of CGI to make up for graphics in a game. "Enterprise," had a very low budget and was cancelled because they could make enough money. The show was too boring.

    On how to make the Tholians look more technologically advance would make them like on that picture on the main page. Is that too hard to make in the game? Hell, the Undine has armor even though they use nature abilities to attack you.
    Not sure how they look like "gummies". They look crystalline because that's what their body basically is. They don't wear anything on Nukara because it is a demon class planet. That's their normal environment they survive in. They only wear suits while on planets with the environment like Earth.
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  • trek21trek21 Member Posts: 2,246 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Yeah, not all races need to wear clothes. As I recall, the Undine don't, and they're similiar to the Tholians (in leg structure, not so much the crystalline aspect).

    And weapons? They're made of crystal, throwing silk and toxic bombs at us, and they have short-range telepathic attack abilities. And the rare times they're up close, they will swipe at you bare-handed. Seems just fine to me, as far as attacking us.

    Giving them clothes is silly. And Tholians might not even know how to hold a weapon like we do...
    Was named Trek17.

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  • hevachhevach Member Posts: 2,777 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Spiders make silk, not the silk you wear.

    Actually, yes, they do. Synthetic spider silk is on its way towards replacing worm silk in some applications, and if mass production becomes viable for textiles will probably end worm silk forever due to its superior optical and physical properties. The limitation that's kept real spider silk to expensive extremely luxury garments wouldn't apply to a spider the size of a Tholian.
    Those are natural abilitiies, but that doesn't explain why they are nake gummy spiders.

    They primarily consist of silicon crystals. Probably iron rich like Citrine based on the color.
    Also, if they are shooting electric discharges all kinds of irrelevant babble

    They're not, their damage type is radiation, not electrical.
    You can't compare a show with a low budget and lack of CGI to make up for graphics in a game.

    Except that Tholian was a high budget CGI special effect. In a Mirror Darkly was probably the most expensive special effects episode of Star Trek since the Dominion War, they blew up pretty much everything that appeared in Enterprise and brought in a couple new ships to do the blowing up (and occasionally get blown up).
    On how to make the Tholians look more technologically advance would make them like on that picture on the main page. Is that too hard to make in the game? Hell, the Undine has armor even though they use nature abilities to attack you.

    That's an EV suit. Any time the Tholians and humanoids share the same environment, one or the other (sometimes both) would need to be in an EV suit because they can't survive in the same conditions. That Tholian still carries no weapons or other devices.

    Walking around in that on Nukara, however, would be the same as walking around on Earth in an EV suit. You see people doing it all the time in-game, but they look silly and out of place. Mainly because what they're doing is silly and out of place.

    The Undine have armor, but the Undine are squishy, their exposed skeletons only offer limited soft tissue protection, and appear to leave the vital organs no less vulnerable than any of the more resilient humanoids. Tholian skin is already harder than some armors. Silicon carbide crystals (moissanite) are very nearly as hard as diamonds.
  • crusty8maccrusty8mac Member Posts: 1,381 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    If the Tholians are supposed to be some type of advanced race, why do they look like naked gummy spiders? You would think, as much as Cryptic like to show their art, that the Devs would design some type of clothes or armor for these creatures.

    I just got finished watching ST:Enterprise - I believe they were introduced here. The STO depiction is accurate.
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  • hevachhevach Member Posts: 2,777 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    crusty8mac wrote: »
    I just got finished watching ST:Enterprise - I believe they were introduced here. The STO depiction is accurate.

    They were introduced in TOS. Aside from much lower effects quality, the headshot seen there is a passable match for the one seen on Enterprise:

    http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090212233452/memoryalpha/en/images/e/ee/Loskene.jpg

    Looks more like a cookie than a gummy I guess.
  • alexindcobraalexindcobra Member Posts: 608
    edited September 2012
    ashkrik23 wrote: »
    Not sure how they look like "gummies". They look crystalline because that's what their body basically is. They don't wear anything on Nukara because it is a demon class planet. That's their normal environment they survive in. They only wear suits while on planets with the environment like Earth.

    The look like a 6 legged gummy worm. The are slightly see through and only look chrystalline when the blow up.
  • alexindcobraalexindcobra Member Posts: 608
    edited September 2012
    trek21 wrote: »
    Yeah, not all races need to wear clothes. As I recall, the Undine don't, and they're similiar to the Tholians (in leg structure, not so much the crystalline aspect).

    And weapons? They're made of crystal, throwing silk and toxic bombs at us, and they have short-range telepathic attack abilities. And the rare times they're up close, they will swipe at you bare-handed. Seems just fine to me, as far as attacking us.

    Giving them clothes is silly. And Tholians might not even know how to hold a weapon like we do...

    Well, if the zapping is so short range than why did he return fire after i shot him from the max distance of my sniper rifle?
  • alexindcobraalexindcobra Member Posts: 608
    edited September 2012
    hevach wrote: »
    Actually, yes, they do. Synthetic spider silk is on its way towards replacing worm silk in some applications, and if mass production becomes viable for textiles will probably end worm silk forever due to its superior optical and physical properties. The limitation that's kept real spider silk to expensive extremely luxury garments wouldn't apply to a spider the size of a Tholian.



    They primarily consist of silicon crystals. Probably iron rich like Citrine based on the color.



    They're not, their damage type is radiation, not electrical.



    Except that Tholian was a high budget CGI special effect. In a Mirror Darkly was probably the most expensive special effects episode of Star Trek since the Dominion War, they blew up pretty much everything that appeared in Enterprise and brought in a couple new ships to do the blowing up (and occasionally get blown up).



    That's an EV suit. Any time the Tholians and humanoids share the same environment, one or the other (sometimes both) would need to be in an EV suit because they can't survive in the same conditions. That Tholian still carries no weapons or other devices.

    Walking around in that on Nukara, however, would be the same as walking around on Earth in an EV suit. You see people doing it all the time in-game, but they look silly and out of place. Mainly because what they're doing is silly and out of place.

    The Undine have armor, but the Undine are squishy, their exposed skeletons only offer limited soft tissue protection, and appear to leave the vital organs no less vulnerable than any of the more resilient humanoids. Tholian skin is already harder than some armors. Silicon carbide crystals (moissanite) are very nearly as hard as diamonds.

    Armor does not mean it has to be a protectant against something hard. We are not shooting bullets at them. We are firing energy weapons at them so maybe that could wear something to help refract light or other energy forms, just for looks of course. They are beaming in and out with no device to to scan or communicate with their ship. I'm just asking the devs to make the Tholians look more convincing that they are an avanced race. I should not have to use my imagination to think of how advanced they are because thats what reading books are for.
  • alexindcobraalexindcobra Member Posts: 608
    edited September 2012
    crusty8mac wrote: »
    I just got finished watching ST:Enterprise - I believe they were introduced here. The STO depiction is accurate.

    I didn't say they didn't look acurate, but that doesn't mean you can't add to the looks, to make them seem like an advanced society. Besides, one episode out of all of Star Trek which was hundreds of years ago, and they didn't change a little bit?
  • deyvaddeyvad Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    I should not have to use my imagination to think of how advanced they are because thats what reading books are for.

    Ah! funny.

    you should read a book once in a while, it won't bite.
  • supergaminggeeksupergaminggeek Member Posts: 616 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Off topic: Y U NO USE MULTI-QUOTE?
    ---
    On topic: Tholians are the crystalline, non-humanoid creatures as seen in TOS: The Tholian Web, and ENT: In a Mirror, Darkly. They're supposed to look like the "gummy" bugs they are now.

    From watching Star Trek, Tholians are capable of using low and high-end radiation, be it a radio signal, or a high-concentration gamma bursts, capable of killing unprotected humans. They don't need weapons.

    They don't wear clothes because they have a hard silicon shell, and I doubt they even have a fleshy part. Just nanofibers for the tissue and organs to operate. Maybe.
  • trek21trek21 Member Posts: 2,246 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Well, if the zapping is so short range than why did he return fire after i shot him from the max distance of my sniper rifle?
    Short-range was just a generalization; the Tholians might consider 35-meters short range for all we know.

    But a fact remains that you think the Tholians look like gummy worms... which is your opinion. Trying to change their canon appearance to suit your tastes isn't really gonna happen though, sorry.
    Was named Trek17.

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  • hereticknight085hereticknight085 Member Posts: 3,783 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Tholians are Tholians are Tholians are THOLIANS. You want a Star Trek game? Then stop trying to change what was in TWO different series, many different books, and already a few other games because you don't like what you see.

    If Tholian's appearance really offends you that much, go play something else. Everyone else who has seen the shows and actually like Star Trek are fine with them, myself included. Get over the fact you didn't get enough candy as a kid and get used to the fact that Tholians are crystalline organisms that look orangy and have set lines. They are walking rocks (essentially). Don't try to change their appearance.

    Off-Topic: Undine are NOT squishy. If so squishy they are, then why can a badly injured Undine still manage to kill ARMED Hirogen hunters with it's bare hands and still have enough strength to wander around in open space and break into a starships outer hull, again with only its bare hands?
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  • alexindcobraalexindcobra Member Posts: 608
    edited September 2012
    deyvad wrote: »
    Ah! funny.

    you should read a book once in a while, it won't bite.

    Ah, hmm when i read books, its mostly about factual things, not fiction and imaginations. Facts won't bite you either.
  • alexindcobraalexindcobra Member Posts: 608
    edited September 2012
    Tholians are Tholians are Tholians are THOLIANS. You want a Star Trek game? Then stop trying to change what was in TWO different series, many different books, and already a few other games because you don't like what you see.

    If Tholian's appearance really offends you that much, go play something else. Everyone else who has seen the shows and actually like Star Trek are fine with them, myself included. Get over the fact you didn't get enough candy as a kid and get used to the fact that Tholians are crystalline organisms that look orangy and have set lines. They are walking rocks (essentially). Don't try to change their appearance.

    Off-Topic: Undine are NOT squishy. If so squishy they are, then why can a badly injured Undine still manage to kill ARMED Hirogen hunters with it's bare hands and still have enough strength to wander around in open space and break into a starships outer hull, again with only its bare hands?

    Sounds like you are the offended one because I critiqued your art? Every faction in Star Trek change their looks over the years. Enterprise and TOS are a hundred years appart. Over the many decades and centuries, Starfleet, Klingons, and Romulans changed their uniforms, styles, ships, and weapons as well. From Enterprise in the 22nd century to the current 25th century, why wouldn't the Tholians change a little bit? Explain why they wouldn't progress?

    I just asked for a little more up to date and convincing of there personal looks.
    Example: Scientist always touts on how Chimpanzees are humans' close relatives but people are not convinced until you put clothes on them, then people want to have them as part of the family and raised as their own children. We know that the ape didn't become human because you put clothes on it but people are more convinced that is a little person because its dressed like a human.
  • alexindcobraalexindcobra Member Posts: 608
    edited September 2012
    Off topic: Y U NO USE MULTI-QUOTE?
    ---
    On topic: Tholians are the crystalline, non-humanoid creatures as seen in TOS: The Tholian Web, and ENT: In a Mirror, Darkly. They're supposed to look like the "gummy" bugs they are now.

    From watching Star Trek, Tholians are capable of using low and high-end radiation, be it a radio signal, or a high-concentration gamma bursts, capable of killing unprotected humans. They don't need weapons.

    They don't wear clothes because they have a hard silicon shell, and I doubt they even have a fleshy part. Just nanofibers for the tissue and organs to operate. Maybe.

    I had described them as "gummy spiders," because they are a little see through and they move. I can't refference any known crystal that moves.

    Daimond: can't bend, flex or change shape. Must be cut by extreme force to make a shape.

    Quartz: can't bend, flex, or change shape without being cut or broken.

    Metal ore is in crytal form: can't bend, flex, or change shape without being broken, or melted down by extreme heat.
  • crusty8maccrusty8mac Member Posts: 1,381 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    I'd forgotten about the TOS one. The Enterprise Tholian was a much sharper image. The STO Tholian is an accurate representation of the Enterprise Tholian.
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  • velktravelktra Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    I had described them as "gummy spiders," because they are a little see through and they move. I can't refference any known crystal that moves.

    Daimond: can't bend, flex or change shape. Must be cut by extreme force to make a shape.

    Quartz: can't bend, flex, or change shape without being cut or broken.

    Metal ore is in crytal form: can't bend, flex, or change shape without being broken, or melted down by extreme heat.

    Glass is a crystalline structure (more or less). It may not move at "room temperature" but if you heat it up it softens and eventually melts. Most crystals can be melted down at high enough temperatures.

    The Tholians have a molten core (I'm not sure what keeps it molten), which softens their outer crystalline structure enough that they can move and bend but not so much that they melt into a puddle.
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  • baudlbaudl Member Posts: 4,060 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    anyway, how tholians look is a decission the inventors/writers made, people may like or not.
    discussing about taste and subjective opinions is irrelevant.

    i like them, because they are not humanoid aliens that breath oxygen...very nice approch towards designing aliens for a sci fi show.
    And they are definately better than those "stuck something on their face" aliens we saw on DS9, TNG and VOY. Tholians are more unique, and i like that.


    PS: even insects have hard outer shells (exosceleton), it's not a very far leap to imagine tholians have the same thing, only made out of crystals and have some sort of semi liquid metal/crystal inside them.

    there are some very interesting articles on the net, that suggest live based on silicon may even be possible.
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