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Cruisers: The Dominant Ship?

icegavelicegavel Member Posts: 991 Arc User
edited September 2012 in Federation Discussion
I've been noticing, recently, that a lot of people are flying Cruisers. A LOT. Specifically the Odyssey. For every Escort or Science Vessel I see, I could count 5 Cruisers. And, out of those 5 Cruisers, odds are at least ONE of them is an Odyssey. Usually, it'll be 2 or 3 (to the community's credit, that used to be a lot higher). People always complain that they tun slowly, so why are they BY FAR the most popular ship type in Starfleet? Well, let's examine each type, shall we?

SECTION 1: AVAILABILITY.
A big reason of this would be the SELECTION. Let's tale a look at the Playable Starship table over at STOWiki. I'm not going to get into the Fleet Ships, those are just buffed rehashes of what we had before. At lieutenant, we have 4 ships. The Oberth is the Science Vessel (C-Store only), the NX is the Escort (C-Store only), and there are TWO cruisers at this tier (one is C-Store only). The trend has already emerged. If we follow that chart down, the status quo doesn't change. One ship each, then the Retrofit off the C-Store. This is the same for Lt. Cmdr, Cmdr, and Captain.
Then we hit Admiral, and the status quo packs it's bags and heads for the hills. Two Escorts (no C-Store versions), 4 Science Vessels (2 C-Store only)... and FIVE Cruisers (2 non-C-Store, one straight purchase, and 2 C-Store Gamble ships). At VA, ALL ships are C-Store (I, however, remember getting my Fed Sci his free Intrepid Retrofit when he hit VA - they need to re-add that). Five MORE cruisers to three Escorts and TWO Science Vessels.
The grand total is as follows:
Getting the Bronze in this category is the Science Vessels, with only 11 variants. The silver goes to the Escorts, with 12. Getting the gold is, of course, the CRUISER, at a whopping EIGHTEEN variants of the lumbering giants. So, they get a point. There's more cruisers than other ships, but no cruiser is a Carrier. Odd.

SECTION TWO: STATS.
For the purpose of standardized comparison, I'll be using the Assault Cruiser, the Advanced Escort, and the Reconnaissance Science Vessel. We'll start off with the most obvious stuff: Power Bonuses. Everyone should know these. Cruisers get +5 to all, Escorts get +15 weapons, and Science Vessels get +15 Aux. So, Escorts hurt more, Science uses more powers, and the Cruisers just balance. That should mean Escorts should win.
The next piece of obvious piece is Base Turn Rate. The Assault Cruiser does 7 degrees per second. The Recon Science Vessel gets 13 d/S, and the Advanced Escort peels off with 15 d/S. So, Escorts turn better.
Technobabble enthusiast will understand the next stat already: Shield modifiers. This is the number your base shield capacity gets multiplied by before bonuses get applied to give you your base shield on that ship. Cruisers, in this case, are the baseline, with a shield modifier of 1. This means, with NO boosts, if a shield says 5,000 capacity, you get 5,000 capacity. On the low end are the Escorts, at 0.9. With no boosts, a shield saying 5,000 on the tooltip will only get you 4,500. So, the Escorts have something of a deficit in the shields department. Science Vessels, however, gain a big ol' 1.3 modifier. This means that a tooltip that says 5,000 will net you 6,500 instead. They can pull their weight in shields. Science Vessels take the cake here.
Finally, it's time for the real gap... Base Hull. The short stick got pulled by the Recon Science Vessel, she only has 27,000. The Advanced Escort, endeavoring to be the middle child, sits on a firm 31,000. A modest difference, an Escort can take an extra torpedo. However, the Assault Cruiser ate too many cakes in its youth, and sits on a fat 39,000. So, for eating too much cake, the Cruiser gets another one.
So, in this category, everyone meets up pretty evenly. No points here.

SECTION 3: POTENTIAL POWERS.
This section is all about BOffs. What kind of powers can your lackeys slot in? I'll continue with the base ships from Section Two.
The Advanced Escort has 7 Tactical power slots, 2 Engineering power slots, and 3 Science power slots. This is clearly a damage spec. Those tactical slots could be firing every gun 9001 times a second. They bring pain.
The Recon Science vessel has 7 Science power slots, 3 Tactical power slots, and 2 Engineering power slots. This guy is gonna make things WEIRD. Black holes and subspace tears will appear all OVER the place! This ship flies in and turns the fight into an episode of the Twilight Zone.
But the Assault Cruiser... the number of frakks given by the Assault Cruiser is negative. This big bucket of bolts is bursting with 7 Engineering powers, 3 Tactical powers, and two Science powers. This guy can bring every healing and resistance power known to MAN. The damage from the Escort can just be healed back, and the Science Vessel is wasting its efforts.

SUMMARY
So, we've looked at the ships. They've all got their niche. However, the winning of the Cruiser has become apparent. They're too much like real-life Tanks... take ALL the enemy fire and still have the ability to blow enemies sky high. Plus, there are more varieties of Cruiser. Overall, it's a lot stronger, especially considering that late-game enemies (the Borg) have a lot of durability AND damage, requiring them to be tanked. So, how can the other ships come up to par?
For one, there could stand to be a few more Escorts. They're small, Starfleet should have no trouble producing them. They could also stand to gain a passive, like the Science Vessels having Subsystem Targeting and Sensor Scan. Maybe, Escorts could get B:Faw, B:O, C:Rapid, and C:Scatter for free, with a special passive for Strafing runs (first consecutive volley deals 5% more damage, only reactivates on a weapon after that weapon has not fired for 7 seconds, plus a bigger Defense boost while moving).
Science Vessels are a good mid-ground for ships; they can take a decent beating, they can have the highest shields in the game, and they cam make things wonky. They have a passive, and an ability gain. Their main issue is that they don't have the damage they need unless it's a long, drawn-out 1-on-1. But, they're decently well-balanced and good in a select few situations. There could be a few more of them, too.
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Comments

  • adamkafeiadamkafei Member Posts: 6,539 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Hang on a sec... just a second... Escorts "Could stand to gain a passive"... No offence meant but WHAT GAME HAVE YOU BEEN PLAYING? Escorts are overpowered enough as it is! My escort does a ridiculous amount of damage to the point of it's boring to play (that and it dies too much) I once did 33,333 damage non crit with a single quantum torp using my escort and you want to give them a passive? You want to give them MORE power? Yes cruisers are the dominant ship but my excelsior that maxes out at 1700 damage per hit with 6 beams and happily solos negh'vars in CSE can't scratch anything in a Fleet action because it's all geared for escorts and you want to make the poor thing MORE useless?

    you are right about there being more cruisers in the game and that should be all the more reason for escorts to not be made even more powerful all the new game content is going for escort pilots and DPS yet the NPC damage figures keep going up so we have a problem, escorts can do damage but don't live long enough to do so, cruisers live long enough to not do any damage... and science ships do less than cruisers! So they're completely screwed over...
    (PWE Please take notes here!) if this keeps going the way it is the game will become unplayable because no-one will have the lifespan (in case of escorts) or damage (In case of cruisers) or both (in case of science ships) to kill anything.

    Rant over...
    ZiOfChe.png?1
  • elandarkskyelandarksky Member Posts: 1,013 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    adamkafei wrote: »
    Escorts are overpowered enough as it is!

    I thought the OP was just observing that the most popular ships seem to be cruisers by federation players?

    Either way..

    My observation has been kinda similar, when it comes to startfleet players I've noticed these

    -most are in cruisers
    -most dont know how to fly them
    -most lose a shield facing in pvp and use science/engineering team as opposed to tactical team
    -Most are flown by tactical captains

    My guess for all these reasons?
    Fanatics.

    They go tactical because they like the idea of blowing things up, but dont realise they trade survivability. They choose cruisers because they are the ship of the captain/series they like e.g. Exploration cruiser (i mean why else is the like 4re-fits for one flipping vessel.) Soverign (the movies), or they think a cruiser can sufficently tank by spamming engineering and science teams.

    As for the oddesy it might be the psychological thing of 'the most expensive thing is the best' and if i get this, i will be better at the game. Which makes me giggle when I'm in a stf (a Science captain in an escort) and I end up being the one supporting cruisers with AuxTSIF, and hazard emitters.

    Also to say for cruiser's popularity some cruisers are 'iconic' ships that some people just feel compelled to buy, e.g. excelsior (i myself bought it and barely used it past a week)
    [Combat (Self)] Your Bite deals 2378 (1475) Physical Damage(Critical) to Spawnmother.
  • icegavelicegavel Member Posts: 991 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    adamkafei wrote: »
    Hang on a sec... just a second... Escorts "Could stand to gain a passive"... No offence meant but WHAT GAME HAVE YOU BEEN PLAYING? Escorts are overpowered enough as it is! My escort does a ridiculous amount of damage to the point of it's boring to play (that and it dies too much) I once did 33,333 damage non crit with a single quantum torp using my escort and you want to give them a passive? You want to give them MORE power? Yes cruisers are the dominant ship but my excelsior that maxes out at 1700 damage per hit with 6 beams and happily solos negh'vars in CSE can't scratch anything in a Fleet action because it's all geared for escorts and you want to make the poor thing MORE useless?

    you are right about there being more cruisers in the game and that should be all the more reason for escorts to not be made even more powerful all the new game content is going for escort pilots and DPS yet the NPC damage figures keep going up so we have a problem, escorts can do damage but don't live long enough to do so, cruisers live long enough to not do any damage... and science ships do less than cruisers! So they're completely screwed over...
    (PWE Please take notes here!) if this keeps going the way it is the game will become unplayable because no-one will have the lifespan (in case of escorts) or damage (In case of cruisers) or both (in case of science ships) to kill anything.

    Rant over...

    33k... not bad... But my Odyssey build can take that. Like I said in the third part, Cruisers do a REALLY good job at sucking up damage. I pop Eng Team 3 and Miracle Worker... What damage? A seriously tank-specced cruiser is an unstoppable force. I once tanked a Tactical Cube in Infected Normal for 5 minutes... with its forward side facing me. Torpedoes, cannons, I took everything it had for WELL long enough for the rest of my team to take down the gate (which was my intention - you don't wanna take pod shots at the gate with a Tac Cube trying to snipe you)... and I did this BEFORE I perfected the build. An Elite Tactical Cube... that's another matter, but I still took his fire for a good 90 seconds. Between Reverse Shield Polarity 3, Eng Team 3, Miracle Worker, and my Borg set... I'm a GOOD tank.

    If you'd like, I can give you the build. I simulated it on STOAcademy.
  • ussultimatumussultimatum Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    adamkafei wrote: »
    Escorts are overpowered enough as it is! My escort does a ridiculous amount of damage to the point of it's boring to play (that and it dies too much)

    How can it be overpowered if it dies too much?
  • elandarkskyelandarksky Member Posts: 1,013 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    "They could also stand to gain a passive.. Maybe, Escorts could get B:Faw, B:O, C:Rapid, and C:Scatter for free, with a special passive for Strafing runs. "

    Well... no, as you said they have 7 + or - tactical boff seats, weapon modifying abilities are what these are for...

    "But, they're decently well-balanced and good in a select few situations."

    That's arguable, science abilities keep getting nerfed or "fixed", science ships are tanks and crowd control (good for pve not pvp), most of abilities have been declawed at one point or another, but yeah in the right hands they can still be used well.

    "There could be a few more of them, too."

    That's really down to the players, if they want to fly them, they will, if they dont then they dont fly them :p, its not like there is a quota of how many types of ship there must be in game ^^
    [Combat (Self)] Your Bite deals 2378 (1475) Physical Damage(Critical) to Spawnmother.
  • yreodredyreodred Member Posts: 3,527 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    The reason for the numerical dominance of cruisers lies probably in the nature of star trek itself.
    Star Trek has always been a Cruiser dominated Universe. Before the introduction of the Defiant, "escort" class ships where next to unknown on Starfleet side. Cruisers on the other hand are the much more iconic type of ships in the Star Trek universe.

    You know, before the Dominion War, Star Trek was about exploring the universe in ships which where able to do 5 or even 10 year missions. They had to be able to take care of themselves, without relying on other ships backing them up or providing firepower for them. Thats what i essentially expect from a Star trek game, i want to fly big ships that don't need "escorts" to destroy an enemy effectively.

    Personally i would have prefered if they never introduced the Defiant in the first place. I think that such a type of ship doesn't belong to Starfleet or the Star Trek universe at all. I find the very idea of small agile glass cannons in Star Trek greatly inappropriate and improper IMO.

    In my opinion:
    In STO, Cruisers should dominate space battles with their firepower and survivability, while Science ships provide crowd control and other "magic" stuff.
    Doing fast dogfights and zipping around just isn't Star Trek for me, if i want to do that i play other games set in other sci fi universes.
    In STO Space combat should be more tactical oriented instead of those fast paced dogfights we have in STO.



    Live long and prosper.
    "...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--" - (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie

    A tale of two Picards
    (also applies to Star Trek in general)
  • reginamala78reginamala78 Member Posts: 4,593 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    One, cruisers are much more iconic so it makes sense that people playing for 'Trekness' would largely pick them. And the Odyssey is officially 'The Flagship,' whether its actually better or not.

    Two, have you played much endgame? Cruisers are numerous, but escorts rule the roost already (and definately don't need buffing). I play cruisers and sci because escorts bore me, but numerically my escorts are a heck of a lot more effective than anything else.
  • freenos85freenos85 Member Posts: 443 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    icegavel wrote: »
    I once tanked a Tactical Cube in Infected Normal for 5 minutes...

    I frequently do this with my Escort in ISE too. Escorts are by far the best ships, at least for PvE content.

    The Odyssey was given away for free once (i think it was the STO anniversary event), so there should be a lot of them around. For other reasons see yreodred's post.
  • skyranger1414skyranger1414 Member Posts: 1,785 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    adamkafei wrote: »
    My escort does a ridiculous amount of damage to the point of it's boring to play (that and it dies too much) ...

    Clearly, you're not doing right. Die less, you'll be less bored.
  • skyranger1414skyranger1414 Member Posts: 1,785 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    icegavel wrote: »
    I once tanked a Tactical Cube in Infected Normal for 5 minutes... with its forward side facing me.t... I'm a GOOD tank.

    Um... I just got my doffing Engi to 50 a few days ago. I set her up in a T4 Assault Cruiser and can already hold agro and survive just fine in Elite STFs.... And it takes me less than 5 minutes to kill the cube who's agro i'm holding. I don't understand why so many cruiser pilots think merely holding agro and surviving is enough, you need to also kill what you're holding. Its not like you don't have defenses to spare, only in emergencies do I shift full power to shields, all power to weapons is more my style, and live on a steady diet of EPTS 3, yet my standart Assault Cruiser holds agro and survives.

    Why be "merely" a damage sponge, kill stuff too!
  • skyranger1414skyranger1414 Member Posts: 1,785 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    yreodred wrote: »
    Personally i would have prefered if they never introduced the Defiant in the first place. I think that such a type of ship doesn't belong to Starfleet or the Star Trek universe at all. I find the very idea of small agile glass cannons in Star Trek greatly inappropriate and improper IMO.

    I could not disagree more. Escorts finally complete the picture of Starfleet as a viable military organization and the Federation as a spacefaring civilization. Section 31 helped make sense of how the usually hapless Starfleet and Federation managed to survive so long and Escorts are a ship that was sorely needed as something more suited for war than explorer ships putting on airs.

    What If there had been a serious war between the federation and anyone else? Does anyone really see the Galaxy Class being more than a speedbump to one of those giant Romulan Warbirds (D' something, i can never say it or spell it.... sneaky roms!) or much less the armed to the teeth KDF cruisers? What would protect federation colonies from fast BoP raids? Does no one remember the alternate timeline where the Enterprize C did not die defending the Klingon colony?

    No, Escorts were needed for the federation and Starfleet to make sense. If nothing else they provide a genuine deterrent as something that an enemy would fear to mess with. And they are NOT glass cannons. Why do people insist on using outdated gaming concepts like that? Just as Cruisers are NOT tanks that can't hurt a fly.

    SO many things to respond to in this thread.
  • adamkafeiadamkafei Member Posts: 6,539 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Ok, I'm not going to say that escorts shouldn't exist because ever since the first planes when to war there have been dogfights but they still shouldn't hold more power in a fight than EVERYTHING ELSE IN THE GAME! And actually just because a galaxy class EXPLORATION vessel can't handle a warship doesn't mean that a federation WARSHIP (such ships did and do exist) can't do it, look at the star trek universe excelsiors, capable of exploration, long range, long term, highly scientific missions but for it's time it was far better equipped to defend it'self than almost anything that would follow it, but this was back when Starfleet built multi-purpose vessels.

    Look at Voyager, Voyager played with the borg on multiple occasions, dealt with 8472, something the borg couldn't, that was a 'lowly' intrepid class science (actually it was exploration if you watch the show) vessel, so don't tell me that starfleet cruisers are nothing more than a speedbump, you look at the dominion war, the Galaxy/Ambassador class EXPLORATION ships scored more kills than the defiants etc. escorting them. So yeah, Starfleet exploration vessels were a force to be reckoned with they only created the defiant to combat the borg, they only drafted them into the dominion conflict because dominion attack ships were beating starfleet's heavy vessels due to their lacking manoeuvrability (a problem the excelsiors and intrepids never suffered from) it was only then that Starfleet decided high damage on weak chassis was a good idea and then they created the Prommy (5 of which could do what you would need 15-20 defiants for so a far better build) and notice how few of those they built.

    Edit: I just remembered in DS9 Paradise lost the Defiant on it's way to Earth was intercepted by the USS Lakota Excelsior class refit (updated weapons, shields, sensors and I think power system aswell, a large group of these were built as well, that goes to show just how useful the excelsior EXPLORATION cruiser was 200 years after the USS Excelsior was commissioned) however back to the point, the defiant bridge crew stated at somepoint they were out matched and more importantly OUTGUNNED and the only reason they made it to Earth was because they convinced the Lakota to stop firing. So yeah, this is proof that cruisers should be the be all and end all in a battle, not escorts
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  • icegavelicegavel Member Posts: 991 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    One, cruisers are much more iconic so it makes sense that people playing for 'Trekness' would largely pick them. And the Odyssey is officially 'The Flagship,' whether its actually better or not.

    Two, have you played much endgame? Cruisers are numerous, but escorts rule the roost already (and definately don't need buffing). I play cruisers and sci because escorts bore me, but numerically my escorts are a heck of a lot more effective than anything else.

    "Have I played much endgame content?" Hmm... 4 max level characters, at least 1 of each profession, 370 days of subscription, gotten the mark 10 MACO set and most of the mark 11 (horrible drop luck)... Killed an assimilated Gorn, fought the Tholian project leader, destroyed ALL the Breen Capital Ships...

    I don't know, you tell me.
  • reginamala78reginamala78 Member Posts: 4,593 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    icegavel wrote: »
    "Have I played much endgame content?" Hmm... 4 max level characters, at least 1 of each profession, 370 days of subscription, gotten the mark 10 MACO set and most of the mark 11 (horrible drop luck)... Killed an assimilated Gorn, fought the Tholian project leader, destroyed ALL the Breen Capital Ships...

    I don't know, you tell me.

    Then I stand corrected (though yeah you have the worst drop luck. I've got 7 Mk12 sets in 6 months). Though more meant as one of those 'have we been playing the same game?' kinda comments (nuance doesn't always work in text), because I just don't see how if you've been playing much endgame you get to the perceptions that cruisers rule. They're more numerous and popular, but escorts just demolish everything and are almost as good of tanks and healers if built right. Someone on here mentioned tanking an elite cube for 5 minutes in a cruiser, whereas I can dig out my patrol escort and kill it in under 2, and I'm not a very good pilot (assuming they're talking about the normal cube, not the tac). 5 cruisers can beat an ESTF without too much problem, but 5 escorts will shred it in half the time. My understanding of PVP play (which I admit is entirely from reading; I don't like that kind of gameplay) is that its similar, where tanky cruisers are mostly ignored except as healers, sci ships are gimped, and escort vs escort is where the main (not all, but main) action is.
  • icegavelicegavel Member Posts: 991 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Then I stand corrected (though yeah you have the worst drop luck. I've got 7 Mk12 sets in 6 months). Though more meant as one of those 'have we been playing the same game?' kinda comments (nuance doesn't always work in text), because I just don't see how if you've been playing much endgame you get to the perceptions that cruisers rule. They're more numerous and popular, but escorts just demolish everything and are almost as good of tanks and healers if built right. Someone on here mentioned tanking an elite cube for 5 minutes in a cruiser, whereas I can dig out my patrol escort and kill it in under 2, and I'm not a very good pilot (assuming they're talking about the normal cube, not the tac). 5 cruisers can beat an ESTF without too much problem, but 5 escorts will shred it in half the time. My understanding of PVP play (which I admit is entirely from reading; I don't like that kind of gameplay) is that its similar, where tanky cruisers are mostly ignored except as healers, sci ships are gimped, and escort vs escort is where the main (not all, but main) action is.

    No, I meant the Tac. Took full fire from a normal-level Tac Cube for 5 minutes with an unrefined tanking build. But people have missed the point of the topic. I never once said "Cruisers rule," except for getting close in the FAR OVER EXAGGERATION of the BOff layout segment. I was merely asking why they're so popular if stuff was better and they turn so horribly.
  • yreodredyreodred Member Posts: 3,527 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    I could not disagree more. Escorts finally complete the picture of Starfleet as a viable military organization and the Federation as a spacefaring civilization. Section 31 helped make sense of how the usually hapless Starfleet and Federation managed to survive so long and Escorts are a ship that was sorely needed as something more suited for war than explorer ships putting on airs.

    What If there had been a serious war between the federation and anyone else? Does anyone really see the Galaxy Class being more than a speedbump to one of those giant Romulan Warbirds (D' something, i can never say it or spell it.... sneaky roms!) or much less the armed to the teeth KDF cruisers? What would protect federation colonies from fast BoP raids? Does no one remember the alternate timeline where the Enterprize C did not die defending the Klingon colony?

    No, Escorts were needed for the federation and Starfleet to make sense. If nothing else they provide a genuine deterrent as something that an enemy would fear to mess with. And they are NOT glass cannons. Why do people insist on using outdated gaming concepts like that? Just as Cruisers are NOT tanks that can't hurt a fly.

    SO many things to respond to in this thread.
    The Federation was involved in a lot of wars over the years and no one felt that there was a need of tiny little Gunships that can do nothing but fire it's cannons.

    Starfleet Cruisers wheren't helpless or weak, they where battleships with science Laboratories.
    (thats why they needed so much more hull volume compared to klingon vessels for example)
    At least until TNG, Starfleet Crew and officers where already respceted for their combat capabilities. There was absolutely no need of introducing ships like the defiant, and even less need to make them as dominant as they are in STO.


    Only the makers of DS9 thought that they needed something "cool" (or at least something the think of being cool). So they introduced this Millenium Falcon on Steroids, ehm i mean the Defiant.
    They also thought that the Federation should be displayed as weak and vulnerable so they could create more tension for their stories in the dominion war.
    Dont missunderstand me, i like DS9 very much but i hate what it did to Star Trek as a whole.


    I have no idea what a speedbump is, m
    aybe you know the galaxy class only from STO but on the shows it was a powerful Battleship that stood toe on toe with the most powerful battleships of the other Alpha/Beta quadrant powers and could only be really weared down by the writers. ;)
    Only in STO they are pictured as flying fortresses without any significant Firepower, which is just nonsense. It's phasers strips where the most powerful ever created by Starfleet and since all ships get updates from time to time they should still be extremely powerful. The Ship itself is Big enough to carry even the Biggest Warp Core to produce much more energy to be fed into the Phaser arrays, than small escort could ever do. The only reason to picture the Galaxy class this weak (fireopwer wise) is for game balancing.


    My point is that Starfleet shouldn't need escorts in the first place, since their Cruisers should already be strong enough to fight any enemy. The only justification to introduce escorts is that they cost less resources than Cruisers, but they should never be superior in any field.
    Outside STO, technically there is no reason a Escort ship should have more power, firepower or stronger shields than a ship 5 times the size. In Star Trek universe they just don't make sense IMO.


    Live long and prosper.
    "...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--" - (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie

    A tale of two Picards
    (also applies to Star Trek in general)
  • skyranger1414skyranger1414 Member Posts: 1,785 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    yreodred wrote: »
    The Federation was involved in a lot of wars over the years and no one felt that there was a need of tiny little Gunships that can do nothing but fire it's cannons.


    I have to ask what big all out wars the Federation has been on? As far as I know after ST 6 and peace was signed with the Klingon Empire there were no notable wars talked about in the shows? I may be mistaken but I don't think they were involved in any all out shooting wars.

    I'll grant you that my view of cruisers in general may be tinted by my own experiences with them in STO. But even if I don't convey it properly I do know the real problem with cruisers in STO is not the ships themselves, but rather the pilots.

    Escort pilots HAVE to learn to be at least decent or be useless, cruiser pilots can spend all day flying around a target doing nothing more than autofire and pressing heal after heal and eventually wear it down. I know this is the case for most of STO's playerbase, I can also say it was what I was doing as well. Until I saw a competent escort pilot and realized the problem was with me, not escorts.

    Flying a cruiser loaded up with healing boff powers makes it possible for anyone to get thru the PvE content, but also trains you to fly in all the wrong ways. People think escorts are supertanks while dealing insane damage, in reality cruisers can deal significant damage while tanking with ease, AND supporting the other players. Problem is, few cruiser pilots bother to learn, or even realize its them that's the problem. I can honestly say that learning how to fly an escort has made my experience with my newly minted lvl 50 engi much sweeter. I have just enough defenses to tank and survive it all and still have a LOT of boff powers to add to my damage and play with. Sadly most cruiser pilots make unkillable tanks with lots of margin for error and are satisfied with doing almost no damage, and then get upset that escorts can survive without them.... instead of saying "hmmm, how do I get more out of my ship?" and "they have an edge on damage while have it on defenses, how do I make this work for me?".

    As far as cannon goes, I always felt Starfleet was an impossible writer's pet, and feel escorts make sense and now it feels more real. I really like it this way.

    To keep the topic relevant with the OP's post:

    I think you see a lot of cruisers around for two main reasons.

    1) Its what you saw in the shows most of the time. That said you'll find that a lot of the subset of fans that prefer DS9 are escort pilots... in Defiants mostly too! Or at least their first escort will likely be a Defiant.

    2) Its what the average player defaults to when escorts and sci ships prove difficult to fly. Mind you not every player does this, but a significant number do. I did.

    As to why so many Odys.... you got me on that one. Personally I won't fly a ship whose looks I can't stand, and the Ody is to my eyes one incredibly UGLY ship, I especially hate it looks like more of a space whale than any other ship, and especially especially (two especiallies!!) hate the neck. Others may be willing to overlook that and even convince themselves they love it... but I ain't buying it!

    Also, it was a surrounded by a lot of events, the special teaser mission, etc, as part of its promotion and release. Heck, it was the "Next Enterprise"! So a lot of people bought it and the 3 pack. So what do you do now? You spent 25 to 50 USD on a ship, do you then buy the Regent? What other cruiser can top the "next enterprise" ? So naturally you see them everywhere.
  • synthiasuicidesynthiasuicide Member Posts: 458 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Fact is, The Oddy remains the most Tac heavy Boff slot cruiser in the game Fed side.
    With Damage Doffs, all you need is the Cammander Eng with EPTW, RSP,EPTS3, ATSIF3.
    Leaving you with almost full uptime for EPTx abilties, and up to 6 Tac Boff slots with the Universal slots.

    No other cruiser can do that. Period. (Fed Side)

    And like the above post said about too many heals. The Oddy can tank everything with just one Commander Engineer Boff.

    Making the Oddy, the most DPS you can get outta a cruiser, Be it Broadside gameplay, or Cannon/Turret (Wth Seperation)
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • red01999red01999 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    I have noticed this too.

    Some simple facts are these:

    1) Some cruisers are VERY well built (I'm lookin' at the Assault Cruisers here) and are able to do most things you throw at them.

    2) They do have high survivability so newbies manage to survive longer in them.

    3) They have more guns. More guns = more firepower, at least according to most people. The nuances of cannons and weapons power are not exactly immediately obvious. Ditto with their size and hull. These are fairly obvious sources of "more" and often (but not always) someone will think that "more = better."

    4) Perhaps the most important, CRUISERS = ENTERPRISES. People on the forums complain about "wanting to be a Kirk." I think most people who jump on STO and want to play starship captain for a few hours /want/ to be Kirk, much as how people who jump on a fantasy MMO probably want to be Link (from Zelda - yes, mixing up series, but work with me here). And they'd rather pretend to be Kirk than tweak the nuances of strange ships they're not very familiar with. I know /I/ want to be a Kirk - wanted to from the start, although I have learned to be a bit better with throwing support in where I can amidst my concerns for survivability and firepower.

    5) Following on the previous point, a lot of the ships we see, while familiar to Trek nerds, are unfamiliar to more casual viewers. Science vessels for the most part are small, unfamiliar ships, in some cases very strangely shaped (e.g. the "golf ball"), or they're Voyager, and most people who want to be a Kirk do not want to be a Janeway. Escorts are small, compact, and don't look like Star Trek ships very much, although this is somewhat offset by their massive firepower potential - which, despite many cries for what some feel is the Roddenberry Vision for Star Trek, is generally a major selling point for video games. While a lot of us are Trek-nerds, a lot of players are much more casual Trek fans (mind, many see this as a casual MMO that you can play when you want on a busy schedule without falling too far behind - and see this as a feature). The nuances of the Saber class versus the Akira class versus the Nova class are lost on them - they're just 'that one not-hero ship that showed up for two episodes as a story subject and about five other episodes to act as background extras/cannon fodder.'

    6) In the case of the Odyssey, the Ody is the most expensive Fed-side ship when bought in a package, the biggest in both size and crew (the latter by a considerable margin), is the current Enterprise, and has a lot of goodies on board. It definitely gives a leg-up to a lot of people, and while that might not be enough to keep them from being pulverized by players who know what they're doing, they likely FEEL stronger for it - and while they're suboptimal, objectively they may very well be stronger compared to what they were netting. Simply put, most expensive + most goodies + most hull + the Enterprise = win, in terms of who's buying what. Plus, the good Odys aren't fleet ships, yet are considered to be the only fleet-level ships you can just purchase at will. The Ody was a smash hit. There are reasons why that is the case, and these are many of them.

    IN SUMMARY - cruisers dominate. The Odyssey (pay) and Assault Cruiser (free) will probably continue to dominate by a considerable margin for the forseeable future, and may very well always dominate for the Enterprise connection alone.

    Just my (very long) $0.02.
  • adamkafeiadamkafei Member Posts: 6,539 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    red01999 wrote: »
    cruisers dominate. The Odyssey (pay) and Assault Cruiser (free) will probably continue to dominate by a considerable margin for the forseeable future, and may very well always dominate for the Enterprise connection alone.

    This is my point exactly, there are far more cruisers in the game than anything else and yet any cruiser built to survive almost anything the game throws at it (and still does 1700-1900 damage per hit with 6 beams) REQUIRES escorts to kill anything in good time (heck it spends a few minutes dealing with frigate shields in the 20 ship fleet action and it's a shield stripper)

    sorry for stealing your post, it was good evidence for me considering I went completely ignored
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  • bareelbareel Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Because there are alot of players who do not know the detailed mechanics of the game and/or just fly the ship they think looks cool.
  • adamkafeiadamkafei Member Posts: 6,539 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Well in all honesty I don't know the detailed mechanics of the game but I know that pre season 6 I was a competent Excelsior pilot who could tear through anything the game threw at me, but with season 6 my combat competence went down the drain, I have an Engi in an excelsior who can survive almost anything but can't kill anything new without an escort to help (Read "do it for me"), I have a tactical in an escort who can kill anything in no time flat (provided someone else is holding aggro for me) and a science in a science ship who bless them is completely useless... the ship can't dish out as much damage as the cruiser, it can't survive as well as the cruiser and science abilities have been reduced to little more that pretty visual effects...

    Seems a little silly to me, or is that JUST me?
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  • eurialoeurialo Member Posts: 667 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    IMHO flying an escort is more difficult than cruisers... you need to front enemies and escort can't be resistent like a cruiser, moreover you can't use an escort if you do not know anything about keybinds.

    Notice, I am not saying that building and flying a cruiser is easy (in fact many cruiser's captains can't tank, do not support their teammates in any way, have bad builds...) many players take a cruiser, put 8 beam arrays, some consoles, BOFF abilities to heal their shield and hull... and finally they fly, just using the keyboard to turn right, left, up and down and the mouse to activate abilities.


    An escort's captain (for example) can't simply do that... a player who whant to fly an escort have to learn how to build it, have to learn how keybind works...
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    Playing STO spamming FAW is like playing chess using always the computer's suggested moves
  • adamkafeiadamkafei Member Posts: 6,539 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Well personally I find the "pew pew" play style of the escort easier than my cruiser (although I've been using keybinds since day 1 so I don't know how that has affected my experience) but it is less fun as for 8 beams, if you have the turn rate of a brick in set concrete it can be moire effective than 6 and 2 torps (being what I run on my excelsior) but my oddy (8 tetryon beams) is more than capable of shredding player ships but unless you are stuck with that kind of turn rate aka anything not an oddy or dread 8 beams is ridiculous, also cruiser players who can't tank need to learn the ship, I know mine inside out, back to front, you name the way and I know my ship (hell I know what it's like to be on the receiving end of it, 6 tetryon beams is nasty) I do try at least to spread my abilities throughout a team and all one needs to do is ask, if I can spare it I will, personally I'd rather be able to survive anything in the game and support my allies, if only by tanking and holding my ship together, than be utterly selfish with my design and have the issue of not being able to help, even if it does mean sacrificing my personal damage potential. after all, one has to draw the line somewhere.

    Regrettably science ships have been on the bad end of the stick, to the point where I have built mine to drain and lay down other debuffs while keeping a team healthy... it's the only thing I can do with it...

    With regard to a few tweaks to my cruiser build (shown below) any advice (not too expensive please, no massive weapon type overhauls) would be appreciated :) (note to those not interested in ship builds post is over)

    Weapons (Same both ends)
    Quantum torpedo launcher Mk XII [CrtD] [CrtH] [Borg]
    Polarised tetryon Beam array Mk XI
    Phased tetryon Beam array Mk XI [Acc] [Dmg]
    Tetryon Beam array Mk XII [Acc] [CrtH] [Borg]

    Equipment
    Deflector: M.A.C.O. Graviton Deflector Array MK XII
    Engines: M.A.C.O. Impulse Engines Mk XII
    Shields: M.A.C.O. Resilient Shield Array Mk XII

    Consoles

    Engineering:
    Monotanium Alloy Mk XI (Blue quality)
    Neutronium Alloy Mk XI (Blue quality)
    Neutronium Alloy Mk XI (Blue quality)
    Assimilated Module

    Science:
    Field generator Mk XI (Blue quality)
    Field generator Mk XI (Blue quality)

    Tactical:
    Tetryon pulse generator Mk XI (Blue quality)
    Tetryon pulse generator Mk XI (Blue quality)
    Tetryon pulse generator Mk XI (Blue quality)

    Bridge officers
    Tactical (Lt. CMDR): Tactical team I, High Yield Torpedo II, Beam Fire At Will III
    Engineering (CMDR): Emergency Power To Weapons I, Reverse Shield Polarity I, Emergency Power To Shields III, Eject Warp Plasma III
    Engineering (Lt.): Engineering Team I, Auxiliary Power To Structural Integrity Field I
    Engineering (Ensign): Emergency Power To Auxiliary I
    Science (Lt.) Science Team I, Jam Targeting Sensors II
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  • coldbeer72coldbeer72 Member Posts: 168 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Been a fair amount said on cruisers and escorts, but little on science ships, and what little has been said seems to be mostly negative.
    I am an ENG captain but fly a Recon Sci, and absolutly love it, Turns on a dime with 2 RCS consoles, all DBB up front and BA, Tric and Cluster transphasic on the rear end,.
    Am very aware that I am not going to throwing out high DPS numbers so dont bother trying, its all about setting the enemy up for the "Big Guns", using GW and whatever else will help out in that regard.
    Works for me, have made it to wave 6 in "no win" and can usually get the optional in STFs, which i am happy with.
    But back to topic, have tried cruisers in the past but they just dont work for me. Can see why they are popular, as mentioned previously, they are, regardless of the many variants, the base representaion to most people of what a Star Trek ship 'should' look like. At the end of the day, if it bears even a passing likeness to NCC-1701, it is pretty much going to sell like hotcakes. Cryptic is aware of this, and caters to the masses accordingly, hence there will always be an over abundance of cruisers ingame compared to the other classes.
  • adamkafeiadamkafei Member Posts: 6,539 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    coldbeer72 wrote: »
    Been a fair amount said on cruisers and escorts, but little on science ships, and what little has been said seems to be mostly negative.
    I am an ENG captain but fly a Recon Sci, and absolutly love it

    I haven't got anything against them (if I did I wouldn't fly one) it's just the science abilities could do with some more bite adding to them, my cruiser shrugs them off as if you poured water on the hull but regardless, the debate I'm trying to have is about balance and the NPC setup relative to player ship numbers, for example: The NPC health it set to withstand the damage capability of escorts (so what an escort takes out in 10 seconds flat take cruisers minutes) yet the NPC damage is set up for the larger cruisers (Isometric charges for example one shot my escort with 20k in overkill and my Excelsior barely survives them, my oddy shrugs them off with a good engi team to bring health up a little for the oncoming barely noticed barrage of disruptor/plasma fire), so that's completely wonky and surprisingly enough, doesn't work well in fleet actions and yet cryptic/PWE somehow expect us to defend a starbase from these monsters, 5 negh'vars train ISOs on the starbase and it's screwed especially if they hit player ships along the way.

    I like the idea of strategy being returned to the combat system, but to facilitate this the ships (Both player and NPC) have to be balanced such that all players can defend themselves regardless of what they fly and can defeat NPCs in a reasonable time aswell, this is something Cryptic seem to have forgotten and yes build will vary in power and tanking capability but just because someone has focussed on tanking shouldn't make them incapable of destroying something on their own, I dish out a good 1700 damage per hit (powered up) across 6 beams, I take negh'vars in CSE alone and unaided in decent time but I go into the 20 player fleet action and spend 10 minutes bouncing tetryon weapons off a ships shields and taking more damage off it than I'm doing to it and it's supposed to be my level, it took me and two escorts to bring it's shields down, forget the hull, that took even more

    But back to your point, I have nothing AGAINST science ships, I'm just asking for them to be made more capable of defending themselves and making life easier for others I read somewhere else "Science abilities have been nerfed to nothingness" and having played a science ship I have to agree
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  • red01999red01999 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    adamkafei wrote: »
    This is my point exactly, there are far more cruisers in the game than anything else and yet any cruiser built to survive almost anything the game throws at it (and still does 1700-1900 damage per hit with 6 beams) REQUIRES escorts to kill anything in good time (heck it spends a few minutes dealing with frigate shields in the 20 ship fleet action and it's a shield stripper)

    sorry for stealing your post, it was good evidence for me considering I went completely ignored

    This was actually not intended to reflect on the effectiveness of cruisers (if I understand your comment), but rather refers to their numerical advantage, if you want to call it that.

    I am sorry, however, if I did not comment on your particular post - long day, brain isn't fully engaged, and TBH I think I missed most of the posts, since this is something I've wanted to comment on for a while.

    On the subject of cruiser strength, however, I will say this - I have heard someone some time ago refer to playing STO with a cruiser as being on "easy mode." So there are others who think cruisers are too effective.
  • adamkafeiadamkafei Member Posts: 6,539 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    red01999 wrote: »
    This was actually not intended to reflect on the effectiveness of cruisers (if I understand your comment), but rather refers to their numerical advantage, if you want to call it that.

    I saw that but the bit I used referenced the number of each sip, I simply used it to represent how the game content doesn't correlate with the player ship ratios.
    red01999 wrote: »
    On the subject of cruiser strength, however, I will say this - I have heard someone some time ago refer to playing STO with a cruiser as being on "easy mode." So there are others who think cruisers are too effective.

    on the subject of this, I'd like to meet this person and for this person to play my toon and ship post season 6 and say that again... I guarantee if he/she has any form of reason that they won't say that again.
    red01999 wrote: »
    I am sorry, however, if I did not comment on your particular post - long day, brain isn't fully engaged, and TBH I think I missed most of the posts, since this is something I've wanted to comment on for a while.

    With regards to this, I understand your position and it wasn't you I was looking for a reply from, I was looking for a reply from skyranger as he seemed to be oblivious to the majority of starfleet ships (in the actual star trek universe, not the STO one)
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