Based on my experience in game as a sci, eng and tac, the ship tanking in game has just gone over the top. When you see the scoreboard at the end of a match and see an escort post similar heal numbers to a cruiser or a sci, i can't help but feel that something is wrong.
Based on this i chunked logs after various games and found that the biggest contributor to this phenomenon is the BFI DOFF ability.
1 of 2 things needs to occur. Either limit the DOFF useage to 1 or drasticly scale the chance down for each DOFF.
Doing this will also reduce the chance of a match lasting hours on end as well.
it seems like the harder and more hit you are when you activate it, the more monstrous the heal is, like every hit you take has a chance to proc it separately.
so in pve, like in stfs, i can hardly get it to do anything. nerfing it would make it even worse in pve, and thats a line thats not getting crossed :rolleyes:
it seems like the harder and more hit you are when you activate it, the more monstrous the heal is, like every hit you take has a chance to proc it separately.
so in pve, like in stfs, i can hardly get it to do anything. nerfing it would make it even worse in pve, and thats a line thats not getting crossed :rolleyes:
Either I'm doing something wrong or I just have bad luck:
I'm using 2 purple BFI Doffs and the actual Proc happens rather rarely. I'd say one out of four times, one out of three at best. Actually I was thinking whether I should a) add a third Doff or b) ditch those completely and replace them with something else.
Captain Faeron - USS Mistral Sea - Ambassador class support cruiser
Sorry, "BFI" ? I'm not in the know when it comes to Doffs, which is this?
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Either I'm doing something wrong or I just have bad luck:
I'm using 2 purple BFI Doffs and the actual Proc happens rather rarely. I'd say one out of four times, one out of three at best. Actually I was thinking whether I should a) add a third Doff or b) ditch those completely and replace them with something else.
sounds like your describing the 2 green i am stuck with on 1 character. another that has 2 blue proc noticeably more, and harder. 2 purple would be great
Actually, I know it'd take some (ok, a lot of) work, but why not limit all DOffs to one of a given type equipped, allowing you to really customize a wide variety of your abilities?
Ahh I see! Yes, i'm running two blues and a purple. It does need to be changed. The only reason it doesen't do as much for me as i'd secretly like is because my aux levels are always pretty low. But something does need to be changed as they're too powerful on the whole.
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A Sad Panda of Industrial calibre. 2010: This is Cryptic PvP. Please hold the line, your call is very important to us...
I think that the main problem isn't with multiple Doffs, but with the proc stacking.
It appears that once you activate BFI you have a window of opportunity during which all incoming damage will have a cance to trigger a proc. If you are under a lot of fire, the chances for a proc activation increase, and also the chance for multiple procs at the same time increases. Sometimes people get a stack of 6 or more BFI procs and this is practically equivalent to temporarily indestructable shields.
I think fixing the proc so that one have can at most one BFI proc active on oneself would be enough to significantly improve the situation. Whether limiting the number of Doffs one can equip is also needed is a different question, but I suggest removing the BFI proc stacking first and see how much it reduces the problem.
Either limit the DOFF useage to 1 or drasticly scale the chance down for each DOFF.
Yes! I think the best option would be to limit the player to having one BFI doff.
That would allow for more variety of doffs to be used.
Cause right now, it seems the three BFIs are a must have, limiting diverse builds.
I think that the main problem isn't with multiple Doffs, but with the proc stacking.
It appears that once you activate BFI you have a window of opportunity during which all incoming damage will have a cance to trigger a proc. If you are under a lot of fire, the chances for a proc activation increase, and also the chance for multiple procs at the same time increases. Sometimes people get a stack of 6 or more BFI procs and this is practically equivalent to temporarily indestructable shields.
I think fixing the proc so that one have can at most one BFI proc active on oneself would be enough to significantly improve the situation. Whether limiting the number of Doffs one can equip is also needed is a different question, but I suggest removing the BFI proc stacking first and see how much it reduces the problem.
it always did seem to me that its not working as intended, the procing 10 times at once under heavy fire. im almost sure its effect is directly proportional to incoming fire.
but they wouldn't know it was doing this if they tested it against incoming npc fire. no, the best thing to test against would be a rapid firing single cannon excelsior or something similar.
I can second (or third?) the suspicion that the BFI proc is probably an on-hit effect. It seldom ever seems to go off in PvE but in PvP it might as well be RSP 2.0: RSP Harder.
I use it, and I need it in STFs. It is, somehow, helpful against isometric charge of AI neghvar ships.
Perhaps, Cryptic/PWE can make different profiles. Like if you are in pvp environment then abilities can be nerfed and in pve the abilities remains unchanged.
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I use it, and I need it in STFs. It is, somehow, helpful against isometric charge of AI neghvar ships.
Perhaps, Cryptic/PWE can make different profiles. Like if you are in pvp environment then abilities can be nerfed and in pve the abilities remains unchanged.
Its OP in PvE as well... you are supposed to die now and then in PvE... wth is the point of playing a game that you never have a chance of loosing.
I will add my voice, the Shield distro is way OP. For ALL game modes. It needs to either only stack once.... however I seem to remember its first nerf the devs saying it was a pain to recode that... and more then likely anyone that has 3 slotted will get to keep them there... so I would vote for a flat 50-75% reduction in effective heal values. Its a bit crazy that it heals 10x stronger then most of the offensive minded doffs can put out... it makes this a only real serious choice kinda thing and needs changed.
Where I do agree that the heal amount can be rediculous, the proc itself is actually quite fun because sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. Gives a bit of uncertainty in a match or in your healcycle which i find fun
OP... well Yeh the OPness depends on the amount of procs. Last few weeks though i had a feeling they procced less then usual for some reason, but thats probably just pure... luck lol
I still think RSP3+RSP2 is more problematic because it doesn't give all those inexperienced lolcruiserselftanks in the queues any idea on how to improve themselves, remove that TRIBBLE ability or decrease its duration, and lets give those epic lolcruiser noobs a clear choice, either improve or DIE.
At least they dont queue up anymore and this will improve the PvP queues quite a bit.
3 doffs is a steep investment, so I don't know that it's wildly OP for what you give up.
In practical applications it's OP. I'd like a 1-2 sec cd so you can't get procs in machine gun fashion. Give a moderate buff to the actual heal to go with it. I think this would also de-incentivise running 3 and we'd see more variation in builds.
The boring part is that you currently have to choose between greatly increased survivability and anything else.
_______________ CommanderDonatra@Capt.Sisko: ahhh is it supposed to do that? Norvo Tigan@dontdrunkimshoot: hell ya, maybe
I think the best solution for the BFI Doff is to apply its chance to activate when brace for impact is activated. In this way, it will activate only once per use of Brace for impact and not multiple times. Of course, each DOFF coule theoretcially activate... so maybe three times max activation once brace for impact is used.
If this change is made, I?d propose a slightly higher heal because it would be needed more in PVE.
actually its better. if i go full aux that sucker procs everytime.....full shields and hardened hull.
to get that with rsp you need to throw in an aux2sif, or delta, or subspace field modulator.....
it will basically stunt all focus fire for about 10 secs right? to have this on an engineer, with rsp and miracle worker....damn thats some self yo yo healing that when you get it into a rotation.....is unbelievabley hard to bypass.
Where I do agree that the heal amount can be rediculous, the proc itself is actually quite fun because sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. Gives a bit of uncertainty in a match or in your healcycle which i find fun
Yes I would say a 87% chance for one hot heal proc is unreliable.
Of course there is also a 87% chance that you at least get one of the consolation prize instant shield heals.
Lets none of us kid our selves..... 50% chance to proc x 3... is more reliable then the borg proc. lol
Guys like MT and myself in our bugs.... well we get Blowed up real good in our bugs to, once per week or so. You did make me laugh a bit this morning though MT... uncertainty in our heal cycles... mhahaha thats good.
I think you're only posting this suggestion because you can't get the 3 of those.
Oh you can bet that naz has 3 purples on everyone of his 10+ toons... Naz likely has every purple doff combo you could think of. Its just a fact that no matter what you test doff wise there are only a few stand out... this must be broken... doffs. Shield Doff is the first one on the list... I hear the conn officer has a fix on tribble. We'll see if they ever take a look at the distro.
I think fixing the proc so that one have can at most one BFI proc active on oneself would be enough to significantly improve the situation. Whether limiting the number of Doffs one can equip is also needed is a different question, but I suggest removing the BFI proc stacking first and see how much it reduces the problem.
I think that the main problem isn't with multiple Doffs, but with the proc stacking.
I think fixing the proc so that one have can at most one BFI proc active on oneself would be enough to significantly improve the situation. Whether limiting the number of Doffs one can equip is also needed is a different question, but I suggest removing the BFI proc stacking first and see how much it reduces the problem.
Naz is right, it's just way way way to powerful, and this is from someone who has them on every ship. Escorts should not out heal healers, and they contribute to matches where either no one dies or pvp newbies get frustrated because they can't dent someone's shields.
You don't even need to check a log to see it (although it's painfully clear there). Just look at any scoreboard where BFI are in play. Should a tac escort really be out healing a dedicated healer, or even be close in score? I don't think so.
Naz is right, it's just way way way to powerful, and this is from someone who has them on every ship. Escorts should not out heal healers, and they contribute to matches where either no one dies or pvp newbies get frustrated because they can't dent someone's shields.
You don't even need to check a log to see it (although it's painfully clear there). Just look at any scoreboard where BFI are in play. Should a tac escort really be out healing a dedicated healer, or even be close in score? I don't think so.
Well if your having trouble with escorts out healing you maybe you should workin on healing a little more dont blame it on the doffs.
Guys it's not that the BFI doff is op, it's that too many other doffs are so broken that this one seems to be overpowered and unbalanced.
Let me explain.
It seems that, for every stackable doff type, if you stack two or three you get a free ability, slightly better than the original.
Working examples:
- Technician: you stack two and you have a photonic officer 1, you stack three and you have a photonic officer 2 (both better than the original).
- Damage Control Engineer: you stack three and you have a good chance (35% x 3) to have a free Emergency Power to X. Also in this case is better than the original (example: double epts3 on some sci ships)
- Conn Officer Tac Team: you stack two and you have a free tactical team, you stack three and you have an "Always on" tactical team.
- Development lab scientist: you stack two and you have a free science team, you stack three and you have an "Always available" science team.
.... and so on.
- Shield distribution officers: you stack two or three and you get a free RSP, but better.
Real problem are those doffs where even stacking three you don't have a decent chance to
see the doff proc happen, usally the chance is 50%.
Examples (excluding ultra rare doffs):
-energy weapons officers (20% x 3 cooldown reduction chance)
-projectile weapons officers (20% x 3 cooldown reduction chance)
-deflector officers (25% chance x 3)
Another problem is with doffs that cannot be stacked and that have a very low chance to proc
Examples
- gravimetric scientist
- warp core engineer
If you consider all above, you discover that the balance problem relies in this simple fact:
- ESCORTS captains can choose doffs that can "complete" their builds, adding missing healing abilities.
- SCIENCE and CRUISER captains cannot add to their builds the corresponding offensive abilities that are missing in their builds. Or, if they can, the chance to proc is lower and the resulting builds are more chance-based.
That must be fixed.
It's not bad to see an escort healing itself as a cruiser when the captain decide to spend his doffs to do so, what's bad is that at the same time we cannot have (most) cruisers and science ships do the same with their offensive abilities, therefore they also opt for slotting shield distribution officers or conn officers and the result is too much healing in arenas.
Guys it's not that the BFI doff is op, it's that too many other doffs are so broken that this one seems to be overpowered and unbalanced.
Let me explain.
It seems that, for every stackable doff type, if you stack two or three you get a free ability, slightly better than the original.
Working examples:
- Technician: you stack two and you have a photonic officer 1, you stack three and you have a photonic officer 2 (both better than the original).
- Damage Control Engineer: you stack three and you have a good chance (35% x 3) to have a free Emergency Power to X. Also in this case is better than the original (example: double epts3 on some sci ships)
- Conn Officer Tac Team: you stack two and you have a free tactical team, you stack three and you have an "Always on" tactical team.
- Development lab scientist: you stack two and you have a free science team, you stack three and you have an "Always available" science team.
.... and so on.
- Shield distribution officers: you stack two or three and you get a free RSP, but better.
Real problem are those doffs where even stacking three you don't have a decent chance to
see the doff proc happen, usally the chance is 50%.
Examples (excluding ultra rare doffs):
-energy weapons officers (20% x 3 cooldown reduction chance)
-projectile weapons officers (20% x 3 cooldown reduction chance)
-deflector officers (25% chance x 3)
Another problem is with doffs that cannot be stacked and that have a very low chance to proc
Examples
- gravimetric scientist
- warp core engineer
If you consider all above, you discover that the balance problem relies in this simple fact:
- ESCORTS captains can choose doffs that can "complete" their builds, adding missing healing abilities.
- SCIENCE and CRUISER captains cannot add to their builds the corresponding offensive abilities that are missing in their builds. Or, if they can, the chance to proc is lower and the resulting builds are more chance-based.
That must be fixed.
It's not bad to see an escort healing itself as a cruiser when the captain decide to spend his doffs to do so, what's bad is that at the same time we cannot have (most) cruisers and science ships do the same with their offensive abilities, therefore they also opt for slotting shield distribution officers or conn officers and the result is too much healing in arenas.
those energy weapon doffs are garbage. if they worked more like damage control doffs they would be great. damage control doffs as long as you have 2 kinds of EPtX skills has to fail it's roles 2 times in a row before it leaves you hanging, they end up being dead reliable in practice, a swear by them. that would only also be the case for those energy weapon doffs if there was a single doff that handled all cannon, beam, and maybe even projectiles abilities. every time you used one of those tac abilities, it might proc and shorten the cooldown on your other tac abilities weather it be beam overload or cannon rapid fire. or just make them like the team skill doffs, knocking a set number of seconds off every time.
Comments
Worst part is, it already had a 25% adjustment shortly after making it into the game, and it still needs more work, lol
so in pve, like in stfs, i can hardly get it to do anything. nerfing it would make it even worse in pve, and thats a line thats not getting crossed :rolleyes:
Either I'm doing something wrong or I just have bad luck:
I'm using 2 purple BFI Doffs and the actual Proc happens rather rarely. I'd say one out of four times, one out of three at best. Actually I was thinking whether I should a) add a third Doff or b) ditch those completely and replace them with something else.
@Aquitaine985
Lag Industries STO PvP Fleet - Executive
A Sad Panda of Industrial calibre.
2010: This is Cryptic PvP. Please hold the line, your call is very important to us...
sounds like your describing the 2 green i am stuck with on 1 character. another that has 2 blue proc noticeably more, and harder. 2 purple would be great
Brace for impact (shield distribution) doffs
./just a thought
@Aquitaine985
Lag Industries STO PvP Fleet - Executive
A Sad Panda of Industrial calibre.
2010: This is Cryptic PvP. Please hold the line, your call is very important to us...
It appears that once you activate BFI you have a window of opportunity during which all incoming damage will have a cance to trigger a proc. If you are under a lot of fire, the chances for a proc activation increase, and also the chance for multiple procs at the same time increases. Sometimes people get a stack of 6 or more BFI procs and this is practically equivalent to temporarily indestructable shields.
I think fixing the proc so that one have can at most one BFI proc active on oneself would be enough to significantly improve the situation. Whether limiting the number of Doffs one can equip is also needed is a different question, but I suggest removing the BFI proc stacking first and see how much it reduces the problem.
Yes! I think the best option would be to limit the player to having one BFI doff.
That would allow for more variety of doffs to be used.
Cause right now, it seems the three BFIs are a must have, limiting diverse builds.
it always did seem to me that its not working as intended, the procing 10 times at once under heavy fire. im almost sure its effect is directly proportional to incoming fire.
but they wouldn't know it was doing this if they tested it against incoming npc fire. no, the best thing to test against would be a rapid firing single cannon excelsior or something similar.
vids and guides and stuff
[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
Perhaps, Cryptic/PWE can make different profiles. Like if you are in pvp environment then abilities can be nerfed and in pve the abilities remains unchanged.
Ain't Nobody Got Time for That
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Its OP in PvE as well... you are supposed to die now and then in PvE... wth is the point of playing a game that you never have a chance of loosing.
I will add my voice, the Shield distro is way OP. For ALL game modes. It needs to either only stack once.... however I seem to remember its first nerf the devs saying it was a pain to recode that... and more then likely anyone that has 3 slotted will get to keep them there... so I would vote for a flat 50-75% reduction in effective heal values. Its a bit crazy that it heals 10x stronger then most of the offensive minded doffs can put out... it makes this a only real serious choice kinda thing and needs changed.
OP... well Yeh the OPness depends on the amount of procs. Last few weeks though i had a feeling they procced less then usual for some reason, but thats probably just pure... luck lol
I still think RSP3+RSP2 is more problematic because it doesn't give all those inexperienced lolcruiserselftanks in the queues any idea on how to improve themselves, remove that TRIBBLE ability or decrease its duration, and lets give those epic lolcruiser noobs a clear choice, either improve or DIE.
At least they dont queue up anymore and this will improve the PvP queues quite a bit.
In practical applications it's OP. I'd like a 1-2 sec cd so you can't get procs in machine gun fashion. Give a moderate buff to the actual heal to go with it. I think this would also de-incentivise running 3 and we'd see more variation in builds.
The boring part is that you currently have to choose between greatly increased survivability and anything else.
CommanderDonatra@Capt.Sisko: ahhh is it supposed to do that?
Norvo Tigan@dontdrunkimshoot: hell ya, maybe
If this change is made, I?d propose a slightly higher heal because it would be needed more in PVE.
actually its better. if i go full aux that sucker procs everytime.....full shields and hardened hull.
to get that with rsp you need to throw in an aux2sif, or delta, or subspace field modulator.....
it will basically stunt all focus fire for about 10 secs right? to have this on an engineer, with rsp and miracle worker....damn thats some self yo yo healing that when you get it into a rotation.....is unbelievabley hard to bypass.
unless they are a nub.
have fun, stay alive, kill bad guys
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
Come on, lol.
Purple BFI's are freely available in as large a bound quantity as desirable to anybody with the know how
Yes I would say a 87% chance for one hot heal proc is unreliable.
Of course there is also a 87% chance that you at least get one of the consolation prize instant shield heals.
Lets none of us kid our selves..... 50% chance to proc x 3... is more reliable then the borg proc. lol
Guys like MT and myself in our bugs.... well we get Blowed up real good in our bugs to, once per week or so. You did make me laugh a bit this morning though MT... uncertainty in our heal cycles... mhahaha thats good.
Oh you can bet that naz has 3 purples on everyone of his 10+ toons... Naz likely has every purple doff combo you could think of. Its just a fact that no matter what you test doff wise there are only a few stand out... this must be broken... doffs. Shield Doff is the first one on the list... I hear the conn officer has a fix on tribble. We'll see if they ever take a look at the distro.
This. Once again, Hilbert is right on the money.
Naz is right, it's just way way way to powerful, and this is from someone who has them on every ship. Escorts should not out heal healers, and they contribute to matches where either no one dies or pvp newbies get frustrated because they can't dent someone's shields.
You don't even need to check a log to see it (although it's painfully clear there). Just look at any scoreboard where BFI are in play. Should a tac escort really be out healing a dedicated healer, or even be close in score? I don't think so.
Well if your having trouble with escorts out healing you maybe you should workin on healing a little more dont blame it on the doffs.
Quote of the week:
Let me explain.
It seems that, for every stackable doff type, if you stack two or three you get a free ability, slightly better than the original.
Working examples:
- Technician: you stack two and you have a photonic officer 1, you stack three and you have a photonic officer 2 (both better than the original).
- Damage Control Engineer: you stack three and you have a good chance (35% x 3) to have a free Emergency Power to X. Also in this case is better than the original (example: double epts3 on some sci ships)
- Conn Officer Tac Team: you stack two and you have a free tactical team, you stack three and you have an "Always on" tactical team.
- Development lab scientist: you stack two and you have a free science team, you stack three and you have an "Always available" science team.
.... and so on.
- Shield distribution officers: you stack two or three and you get a free RSP, but better.
Real problem are those doffs where even stacking three you don't have a decent chance to
see the doff proc happen, usally the chance is 50%.
Examples (excluding ultra rare doffs):
-energy weapons officers (20% x 3 cooldown reduction chance)
-projectile weapons officers (20% x 3 cooldown reduction chance)
-deflector officers (25% chance x 3)
Another problem is with doffs that cannot be stacked and that have a very low chance to proc
Examples
- gravimetric scientist
- warp core engineer
If you consider all above, you discover that the balance problem relies in this simple fact:
- ESCORTS captains can choose doffs that can "complete" their builds, adding missing healing abilities.
- SCIENCE and CRUISER captains cannot add to their builds the corresponding offensive abilities that are missing in their builds. Or, if they can, the chance to proc is lower and the resulting builds are more chance-based.
That must be fixed.
It's not bad to see an escort healing itself as a cruiser when the captain decide to spend his doffs to do so, what's bad is that at the same time we cannot have (most) cruisers and science ships do the same with their offensive abilities, therefore they also opt for slotting shield distribution officers or conn officers and the result is too much healing in arenas.
those energy weapon doffs are garbage. if they worked more like damage control doffs they would be great. damage control doffs as long as you have 2 kinds of EPtX skills has to fail it's roles 2 times in a row before it leaves you hanging, they end up being dead reliable in practice, a swear by them. that would only also be the case for those energy weapon doffs if there was a single doff that handled all cannon, beam, and maybe even projectiles abilities. every time you used one of those tac abilities, it might proc and shorten the cooldown on your other tac abilities weather it be beam overload or cannon rapid fire. or just make them like the team skill doffs, knocking a set number of seconds off every time.