Much of the discussion with regards to how to balance the Professions and Bridge Office Ability Pools of those professions has revolved around tweaking or fundamentally changing Profession or Bridge Office Abilities. I however have been thinking that perhaps a different approach would work better for both the PVE and PVP STO gamer. So here it goes guys, don?t hang me until you?ve read everything. It isn?t that long!
I have been thinking, what if Cryptic created a couple more of those ship modifiers that would be applied to ships of specific types in order to bring some additional balance to the DPS disparity between ship classes in PVE and PVP; but don?t worry, Escorts with tactical captains will still remain supreme in the DPS arena. My reasoning to go after the ship types is, is that it is a lot easier to balance a ship modifier across a single class of ships than it is to balance a Bridge Officer ability across all classes and combinations of ships in the game.
My Proposal: Science Vessels
I would propose to give all Science Ships an ?Accuracy Modifier, a ?Rate of Fire? modifier and a ?Damage Reduction? modifier that applies to all of its energy weapons regardless of type. Type is to be understood as Beam, Cannon or turret.
With an accuracy modifier the Science ship, while not packing a huge punch with its fewer weapons and fewer Tactical consoles, will certainly be better equipped to maintain an overall better DPS against all targets over time; especially with Sensor analysis being figured into the equation.
With a ?Rate of Fire? modifier, the Science ships will be able to PROC more often, but while coupled with the ?Damage Reduction? modifier or penalty, they will maintain the current or similar level of DPS that energy weapons normally output. Now I know a few of you just shouted aloud ?hell no!? because Phaser PROC?s are somewhat ridiculous due to pet spam and other factors. However, that is an issue with the Phaser PROC itself and does not really have to do with this discussion. Please try and focus on the overall picture as we continue. Thank you!
My Proposal: Cruisers
As for Cruisers, I strongly propose that Cruisers should have their own ?Rate of Fire? modifier on its energy weapons regardless of type as well. Unlike the Science vessels, I would propose that Cruisers should fire more slowly but deal more damage per shot, known as damage per Volley (DPV) in the game.
Yet Cruisers should also maintain the same or similar DPS output that its energy weapons, when equipped, currently have. This can be done by manipulating the Cruisers weapons damage modifier and rate of fire modifier so that DPV is high yet DPS is still maintained. For a demonstration of this, see Torpedo weapons in the game. Specifically, look at Quantum verses Photon Torpedo weapons. Photon has high DPS and Quantum Higher DPV.
My Proposal: Escorts
Leave them alone, they don?t need a NERF nor do they really need any BUFF. Escorts are arguably the best ship Type in the game for both PVE and PVP.
With these changes I predict the following results:
-Escorts will continue to be the high rolling DPS machines that they are expected to be, especially with a Tactical Captain in command. Against a Cruiser, Escorts will have to be careful not to reduce impulse speeds so much so as to reduce their defense modifiers whereas the cruiser is possibly landing many additional hits per volley; as each hit will now do more DPV. That might mean it will be more dangerous to match the Cruisers speed and sit on its aft firing arch hammering away at the Aft Shields? or it might not be? your defense value against cruisers however will be more important. Against Science Ships, Escorts will notice that subsystem attacks will occur more often and that the science ship will be able to maintain weapons lock much more easily than any other class ship in the game. However, science vessels will not be any more difficult to destroy than they are now. (Note, I do not think that the Carriers should receive the Science Vessel changes discussed above!)
-Science Ships will enjoy a slight increase in DPS and also a nice benefit of being able to PROC their energy Weapons more often against their targets compared with the other two classes by default. This will make them more valuable in both PVE and PVP five man teams. It will also make otherwise infrequently used energy weapon types a little more enticing to try out. Science ships will also notice slightly better gameplay verses other Players in PVP and will receive fewer complaints from their team mates in five man PVE missions that require better DPS output to effectively meet the challenges the team will face. Overall, my proposal Buffs Science Vessels slightly!
-Cruisers will enjoy the ability to Spike damage slightly better than currently, but overall they will not see an increase in DPS over time. Cruisers will also suffer a slight penalty in the amount that they PROC an enemy Vessel compared to Escorts and Science Vessels. However, Cruisers will now be better able to overpower enemy defense such as shield facings in both PVE and PVP due to the increase DPV of each shot. This means that Beam Overload will be more potent on a Cruiser than on an Escort, however, FAW will in fact be slightly weaker when used on a cruiser. With increased DPV on cruisers it is important to still maintain the overall DPS that energy weapons deal so as to not out due Escorts in DPS.
The reason to increase DPV while maintaining DPS on cruisers is so that cruiser don?t have to watch their damage constantly be repaired nearly immediately by a ships shield regeneration rate or hull repair rate. A volley from a Cruiser will now potentially deal noticeable damage to a well shielded and resisted target.
Discuss your thoughts with regard to my suggestions above.
The problem with sci ships isn't that their energy weapons aren't doing enough damage
The problem is that sci powers have been nerfed into the dirt. My lulz recon build is down to the last option as far as sci powers go. If they nerfed VM, I'd be completely done with sci vessels all together. My sci does next to no damage, but can be your worst nightmare when I'm on a competent team. TRIBBLE with their opponents is exactly what sci should be designed to do.
The problem with sci ships isn't that their energy weapons aren't doing enough damage
I completely understand that. I?m not saying that this balance method will solve the issues with Science Bridge Officer Abilities not functioning correctly nor will it solve the issue with the relationship between Flow Capacitors and power insulator resistances and Buff of abilities.
This proposal for change really doesn?t propose a serious increase to DPS for Science Vessels. The accuracy helps with the natural Beam Target Abilities and the fast firing rate will help with the PROC of the Energy weapons thereby making certain infrequently used energy weapons more viable in Power Drain builds and Shield Stripping builds when supplemented with the correct Bridge Officer Abilities and Skill point usage.
I?m sorry if you feel I?m giving off the impression that I think DPS is the number one issue with balance in the game. It isn?t, but it is an issue in PVE five man groups and to, perhaps a lesser extent PVP.
Cruisers are fine as is. A step in that direction just takes us one step closer to cruisers online.
Your premise is buff sci and cruisers, but not escorts basically is like saying "let's nerf escorts"
I don't think thats a step towards over all balance.
In what way did I NERF Escorts? Explain given my proposal if you will why you think that I did any such thing!
What i did is I propose Cruisers do more DPV and the same DPS. If an escort has a high defense, than in fact I just buffed the Escort defense verses a Cruiser because a higher DPV with the same DPS, when it misses, will be worse for a cruiser. All that means is, it is a bit more dangerous to sit on the aft arc at low speed and fire away non-stop into the cruiser. So you have to manuever a bit more...
I did buff Science verses both Cruiser and Escort. Just saying. Science ships need help right now.
Sci ships suck in pve and adding a few more procs isn't going to help that.
Pve in this game is so easy, even in my sci spec, I could jump my TRIBBLE into a scort and do fine in a STF. In a pug, I'll still do better than 90% of the ppl Ill end up teamed with.
I only say all of this because I want cryptic to FIX the problem instead of throwing band aids on it
In what way did I NERF Escorts? Explain given my proposal if you will why you think that I did any such thing!
What i did is I propose Cruisers do more DPV and the same DPS. If an escort has a high defense, than in fact I just buffed the Escort defense verses a Cruiser because a higher DPV with the same DPS, when it misses, will be worse for a cruiser. All that means is, it is a bit more dangerous to sit on the aft arc at low speed and fire away non-stop into the cruiser. So you have to manuever a bit more...
I did buff Science verses both Cruiser and Escort. Just saying. Science ships need help right now.
First off, if you buff 2 classes but not the third, it can be seen as nerfing the one that gets no buff. If your honestly trying to say adding burst damage to a cruiser isn't a buff, then why do it at all?
Second, you won't MISS anymore or less % with a higher dpv vs dps with everything else being equal. You'll miss exactly the same percentage.
Third, in your own words you described an escort having to change its tactics in order to survive. That sure sounds like it has a negative effect on scorts to me?
FYI...my main is a sci/oddy. Just wanted to make that clear before I'm accused of defending a class I suck at playing
First off, if you buff 2 classes but not the third, it can be seen as nerfing the one that gets no buff. If you?re honestly trying to say adding burst damage to a cruiser isn't a buff, then why do it at all?
So that Cruisers are more effective when fighting at each-other. It has nothing to do with how Cruiser deals with Escorts. See, you didn?t even consider that did you? I think you assume I hate Escorts or something, I don?t. I just don?t see any need to tweak them as they do very well verse everything but a pure Tank build or a better escort.
Second, you won't MISS any more or less % with a higher dpv vs dps with everything else being equal. You'll miss exactly the same percentage.
That is true; you will miss the exact same percentage of shots. However, if you consider that the cruiser will fire less often to maintain the same DPS in order to achieve that higher DPV. Then every miss will in fact reduce its effective DPS verse an Escort. The only time that the Cruiser will have an advantage verse the Escort is if for some reason its defense approaches 0; which can happen. However, between holds and reduced periods of defense, the escort won?t really notice any difference fighting a cruiser.
Third, in your own words you described an escort having to change its tactics in order to survive. That sure sounds like it has a negative effect on scorts to me?
A change in tactics is not a NERF! It is true that with the change Escorts won?t want to be caught very long at reduced defense values. Defense decreases as speed decreases. However, Cruisers won?t want to see Escorts with increased defense, as a miss for them will negatively affect how much DPS is being put on target. I think you are confused about my saying increased DPV at the same level of DPS. That is just a stat. In practice. The Increased DPV at the same DPS against a high Defense Escort will result in the Cruiser dealing even less DPS to the Escort. However, if the escort is stopped and closer to 0 defense, the cruiser will deal damage more quickly to the Escort. It is a trade-off situation that both ships can try and take advantage of.
FYI...my main is a sci/oddy. Just wanted to make that clear before I'm accused of defending a class I suck at playing
Ok, fair enough. I had assumed you were an Escort Guy. In your case, it would be bad for you if the escort was flying at higher speeds strafing you with alpha strikes than it would be for him to sit on your aft and just shoot, shoot, shoot because your time on target and effective DPS will drop as it should against a target with good defense rating. With the change I suggest, this drop will be more easily seen. Yet, an escort stuck in a tractor beam will seriously be afraid of a broadside from a cruiser with six beams. See how that works?
While I would agree that Sci skills still need some love... there's barely any reason to use some of them...
I can see where a ship or ship class modifier of the parameters in question might be easier to balance and could help distinguish ship performance.
Neat idea. Whether it's a good one or not, I'll leave to others to debate.
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To me the issue is the game isn't designed to facilitate (sp?) as large of a variety of playstyles as it should. If it did than a larger variety of ships and abilities would be more viable. The closest it comes are the transport raiding dailies the KDF have which favor fast high DPS ships.
For non-combat PvE as examples:
There's no benefit to using Sci ships/abilities for gathering anomolies.
Ships have no cargo holds, so there's no benefit to flying transports/cruisers in terms of moving resources from point A to B. There's also no real need to transport resourses from points A to B.
There's no advanced medical bays on ships nor need for them.
There's no advanced research ships nor reasons to have them.
Examples For Combat Oriented Gameplay:
There's no benefit other than boff layout for using one type of ship over another since there are so many ways to boost power, the power level bonuses are more nice bonuses than must haves.
There's no plus X to Sci abilities for Sci ships. Eg Plus 50 particle gen for Tholian Sci ships. Also, Sci ability base effects are too low to be effective in PvE in general.
No real design need for a grind out DoT + survivability for seige type situations. Also, spike repair capabilities hurt this.
No reason for recon missions.
No special forces type high risk high priority target missions.
No asymetric warfare type missions.
Not that all of these things should be in a Star Trek game, but if the base objectives are too narrow in scope than there's no real room for variety.
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
Again, this isn't cruisers online. Balancing based on how one class fights itself instead of balancing a ships role in a team dynamic is going the wrong direction
If your dps is the same but with higher burst and less ROF, then your dps will be the same over time with everything being equal. Your argument that a missed shot doesn't make sense. For instance, in the current system you shoot a beam 10 times in ten seconds for 100 damage each, but your accuracy is 80% so you miss twice, you'd deal 800 damage in ten secs equating to 80 dps. Now let's double the dpv but cut the ROF by half. Now you fire five times at 200 damage and miss once with the same 80% accuracy. You've now dealt 800 damage over ten secs...again.
So let's say your right and it's not a nerf. It sure isn't balanced either. What your trying to do is shorten the gap of threat that a cruiser and sci's weapon damage produces vs what an escort can do. The ability for a cruiser to support a team is already OP as it is now. By also buffing it's ability to be more dangerous in the damage department only pushes it further into being OP unless your going take something away from cruisers or add something to escorts to compensate.
I like the general direction and think its a good idea. Two quick things:
1) Since there is absolutely nothing else to do in this game but DPS, I like the cruiser changes. A modest increase in DPV might help to end the dream team of 5 escorts rolling PvE. Except for KDF cruisers there is no reason to fly anything but an escort. So suck it up escort pilots, cruisers online is still far away, if anything escort tanking has gone way over board, either that needs to be nerfed, or cruisers need a dmg buff.
2) Sci ships: Need a buff, and i also really like the idea for it to be a team buff. I have brought a similar idea up a few times already. Why not make those Team boni something that is specific for each sci ship, eg. Nebula increases Acc, Intrepid Hull regen...
THis would up sci viability in solo pve, where they suck the most. And if we put a limit to the buff stacking it would prevent 5 sci ships from being the new got to combo for PvP arenas. Give us a reason to bring sci on our teams.
However, since the KDF has already lost the escort race, the KDF is in desperate need of some worthwhile upgrades as well.
I also agree that escort tanking has gone way ott. In my humble opinion, escort tanking can be limited by reducing the amount of bfi doff usage to 1 rather than 3. This is one of the proposed changes i would recommend.
Again, this isn't cruisers online. Balancing based on how one class fights itself instead of balancing a ships role in a team dynamic is going the wrong direction.
I?m not trying to balance things based entirely on how one class fights its own class. I gave specific examples of how the changes I proposed would affect the other classes in my first post. Did you forget what you read already? That is some serious short term memory! I feel I already rebutted your complaint here in my first post.
If your dps is the same but with higher burst and less ROF, then your dps will be the same over time with everything being equal. Your argument that a missed shot doesn't make sense. For instance, in the current system you shoot a beam 10 times in ten seconds for 100 damage each, but your accuracy is 80% so you miss twice, you'd deal 800 damage in ten secs equating to 80 dps. Now let's double the dpv but cut the ROF by half. Now you fire five times at 200 damage and miss once with the same 80% accuracy. You've now dealt 800 damage over ten secs...again.
You entirely missed the point of my argument. However, this I can explain better and with mathematics so that it will be more clear and evident that I was predicting high and low points in the DPS curve, although, overall no change in DPS over time.
Let us take for example a single beam array that does one hundred (100 DPV) damage per volley. This beam array fires four times over five seconds (5 seconds). Thus, we can figure out mathematically, that it will do an average eighty damage per second (80 DPS). Now, let us take my proposed beam array and assume it does two hundred (200 DPV) damage per volley. Now, in order to maintain the eighty damage per second on average; this beam array can only fire twice over the same five seconds (5 sec.).
So let?s summarize!!!
We have the regular beam array that has these values: 100DPV ? 80DPS: 4 cycles over 5sec.
We have the proposed beam array that has these values: 200PDV -80DPS: 2 cycles over 5sec.
Now let us figure in an average accuracy of eighty percent (80%) just like you wanted to use in your argument above. Four cycles of the regular beam array yield an average of 3.2 shots that will hit the target. Two cycles of the proposed beam array yield an average of 1.6 shots that will hit the target. Now let?s plug those averages in shall we? (200 DPV * 1.6 = 320) (100 DPV * 3.2 = 320) So far it looks like your assumption was correct, as it should be because I specifically stated I didn?t want to change the overall DPS over duration of time. Now, what you might not understand immediately is that there will be periods where DPS actually fluctuates even though over an extended period of time the average DPS should be actually equal.
For example, the game does not calculate a half of a hit. It either hits or it does not hit. So let us use an accuracy of only 70% and see what happens.
So what happened above? Well, we had to round to the nearest whole number. Therefore, the proposed beam array will seemingly sometimes have a 50/50 chance to hit because it only has two cycles while the four cycle beam array will seemingly hit 70% of the time. However, mathematically, the DPS over time will even out.
I hope that helps you better understand the proposed change with Cruiser Weapon. Now, how that plays into fighting against Cruisers, Escorts and Science Ships. Well? obviously higher Defense will play into the Escorts favor more often. Cruisers with their lower defense, will be able to damage each other due to better spike potential and science vessels, like escorts, could benefit from higher defense as well.
Anyway, I put a huge amount of effort into this proposal. If people don?t like it, that is fine. However, I made sure not to bias against any particular ships type. If anything, Science Vessels are getting the best tweak with these proposed changes in my original post.
So let's say your right and it's not a nerf. It sure isn't balanced either. What your trying to do is shorten the gap of threat that a cruiser and sci's weapon damage produces vs what an escort can do. The ability for a cruiser to support a team is already OP as it is now. By also buffing it's ability to be more dangerous in the damage department only pushes it further into being OP unless your going take something away from cruisers or add something to escorts to compensate.
You absolutely wrong, wrong, wrong! What I?m trying to do is slightly even out the DPS potential of each of the three classes in PVE because in PVE Defense hardly matters against the AI.
However, in PVP, Defense value and accuracy are extremely important. With my proposed changes, overall DPS over duration of 60 seconds will not change between an Escort to Cruiser or Cruiser to Science Vessel. It will change slightly Cruiser to Cruiser and it will change even more slightly Science to Escort, but not Escort to Science. The only reason Science will see a bigger change, although still small, is because the Science vessel will have a innate better accuracy modifier. Thus why the damage penalty I applied to that class of ship.
BTW, I appreciate your continued rebuttals, it allows me to further build my case that these modifiers will indeed help bring some more balance between the three classes in PVE DPS and slightly improve the PVP in Cruiser to Cruiser and Science to every both Cruiser and Escort, while hardly touching Cruiser to Escort/Escort to Cruiser or Cruiser to Science.
I also agree that escort tanking has gone way ott. In my humble opinion, escort tanking can be limited by reducing the amount of bfi doff usage to 1 rather than 3. This is one of the proposed changes i would recommend.
Either that or just change it to a spot heal and drop the regen. That doff is ridiculously OP, but it's not an escort doff. My oddy survives with no rsp thanks to them
I like the general direction and think its a good idea. Two quick things:
1) Since there is absolutely nothing else to do in this game but DPS, I like the cruiser changes. A modest increase in DPV might help to end the dream team of 5 escorts rolling PvE. Except for KDF cruisers there is no reason to fly anything but an escort. So suck it up escort pilots, cruisers online is still far away, if anything escort tanking has gone way over board, either that needs to be nerfed, or cruisers need a dmg buff.
2) Sci ships: Need a buff, and i also really like the idea for it to be a team buff. I have brought a similar idea up a few times already. Why not make those Team boni something that is specific for each sci ship, eg. Nebula increases Acc, Intrepid Hull regen...
THis would up sci viability in solo pve, where they suck the most. And if we put a limit to the buff stacking it would prevent 5 sci ships from being the new got to combo for PvP arenas. Give us a reason to bring sci on our teams.
However, since the KDF has already lost the escort race, the KDF is in desperate need of some worthwhile upgrades as well.
A little history less in Star Trek Online? NOTHING gets changed without FIRST ensuring it doesn?t adversely affect PVE. PVE comes FIRST and FOREMOST!!! That is Cryptic?s business model; we are the bottom of their barrel, the grime beneath their feet. Basically, they don?t really give a hoot about PVP, so don?t make PVP plans without thinking about PVE. :mad:
I like the general direction and think its a good idea. Two quick things:
1) Since there is absolutely nothing else to do in this game but DPS, I like the cruiser changes. A modest increase in DPV might help to end the dream team of 5 escorts rolling PvE. Except for KDF cruisers there is no reason to fly anything but an escort. So suck it up escort pilots, cruisers online is still far away, if anything escort tanking has gone way over board, either that needs to be nerfed, or cruisers need a dmg buff.
2) Sci ships: Need a buff, and i also really like the idea for it to be a team buff. I have brought a similar idea up a few times already. Why not make those Team boni something that is specific for each sci ship, eg. Nebula increases Acc, Intrepid Hull regen...
THis would up sci viability in solo pve, where they suck the most. And if we put a limit to the buff stacking it would prevent 5 sci ships from being the new got to combo for PvP arenas. Give us a reason to bring sci on our teams.
However, since the KDF has already lost the escort race, the KDF is in desperate need of some worthwhile upgrades as well.
If you want to increase your dps as a cruiser for pve, equip single cannons and Torp Spread. It's not terribly hard guys. Also Eject Warp plasma is pretty sexy zone control, for quite a few of the STFs, (KA and cure particularly) and Fleet Actions. needed zone control even if everyone's running around in scorts.
Solo PVE is auto win, it doesn't need a buff, I say this as someone that flies an eng and cruiser.
Quit trying to balance the game for LOLPvE. It's not going to work, and will only TRIBBLE up pvp in the process.
Also increasing Cruisers Burst Damage (which is what you are doing by increasing damage per volley. It's the EXACT same reason why DCs Blow TRIBBLE and DHCs rule the field) will also greatly swing things further to the cruisers favor in pvp. Stop it.
This is how you fix the DPS Race of pve. Start having actual NPCs on the field and not just target dummies. Make it so that zone control is even more important, as is healing and you fix the problem without TRIBBLE PvP.
If you want to increase your dps as a cruiser for pve, equip single cannons and Torp Spread. It's not terribly hard guys. Also Eject Warp plasma is pretty sexy zone control, for quite a few of the STFs, (KA and cure particularly) and Fleet Actions. needed zone control even if everyone's running around in scorts.
Solo PVE is auto win, it doesn't need a buff, I say this as someone that flies an eng and cruiser.
Quit trying to balance the game for LOLPvE. It's not going to work, and will only TRIBBLE up pvp in the process.
Also increasing Cruisers Burst Damage (which is what you are doing by increasing damage per volley. It's the EXACT same reason why DCs Blow TRIBBLE and DHCs rule the field) will also greatly swing things further to the cruisers favor in pvp. Stop it.
Ummm.. DHC and DC don't work at all like my proposal. DHC actually do more damage. Stop posting on assumptions and actually reply to relevant information!!! See I can be bossy too! :P
Ummm.. DHC and DC don't work at all like my proposal. DHC actually do more damage. Stop posting on assumptions and actually reply to relevant information!!! See I can be bossy too! :P
You want to A decrease Beam Rate of Fire. And B Increase the damage per shot they deal as a result.
Yes?
That is Exactly how a DC (current beam) works vs a DHC (your new idea).
Also, QED doing this takes a TRIBBLE on DHC cruisers.
DHCs do not do more overall DPS than a DC does or is not supposed to. It does because of how badly Cryptic coded the game, and how they failed to realize a DHC does it's dps in one volley a DC needs 4, which means you need more TOT to get the damage dealt, it also takes longer to do it which gives the target more time to heal up.
Seriously, go look at the state line DPS for a DC and then go look at a DHC.
This is Exactly what you are trying to do for Beams. Which are already retardedly powerful as it is. And now you want them to be even stronger.
If you want to increase your dps as a cruiser for pve, equip single cannons and Torp Spread. It's not terribly hard guys. Also Eject Warp plasma is pretty sexy zone control, for quite a few of the STFs, (KA and cure particularly) and Fleet Actions. needed zone control even if everyone's running around in scorts.
Solo PVE is auto win, it doesn't need a buff, I say this as someone that flies an eng and cruiser.
Quit trying to balance the game for LOLPvE. It's not going to work, and will only TRIBBLE up pvp in the process.
Also increasing Cruisers Burst Damage (which is what you are doing by increasing damage per volley. It's the EXACT same reason why DCs Blow TRIBBLE and DHCs rule the field) will also greatly swing things further to the cruisers favor in pvp. Stop it.
This is how you fix the DPS Race of pve. Start having actual NPCs on the field and not just target dummies. Make it so that zone control is even more important, as is healing and you fix the problem without TRIBBLE PvP.
sorry but this whole cruisers online is a straw-puppet. Good escorts frequently outheal reasonably skilled heal boats, so there is less of a reasons for cruiser. Since everybody seems to be fine with super tanky escorts, its seems only fair that cruisers get more burst. If all the signs are in favor of cruisers, why does almost everyone fly escorts in the 1v1 league? give me 5 of your best cruisers, and me 5 of the best escorts, and lets see who is getting done with eg. Infected space in less time? Cruisers are not OP in this game, if anything its non class specific healing, which devalues the big asset of cruisers.
So how have your balance suggestions for PvP gone down with Cryptic?? We all know that without thinking about PvE there will never be any adjustments.
Yes, EWP and single cannon builds ....been there done that. EWP on bop or armitage will always be better at zone denial then EWP on a cruiser. This isn't even close to a fix for sci boats, let alone for the fact that TAC again outshine everyone else in this setup.
I would love those changes for NPCs, but as it stands there is no reason to bring sci boats, and without toning the healing of escorts down, the native role of eng/cruisers is equally diminished. Just because some melancholic ailuropodae are putting their sci in cruisers doesn't mean that cruisers are OP and at the heart of all problems for PvP
You want to A decrease Beam Rate of Fire. And B Increase the damage per shot they deal as a result.
Yes?
That is Exactly how a DC (current beam) works vs a DHC (your new idea).
Also, QED doing this takes a TRIBBLE on DHC cruisers.
DHCs do not do more overall DPS than a DC does or is not supposed to. It does because of how badly Cryptic coded the game, and how they failed to realize a DHC does it's dps in one volley a DC needs 4, which means you need more TOT to get the damage dealt, it also takes longer to do it which gives the target more time to heal up.
Seriously, go look at the state line DPS for a DC and then go look at a DHC.
This is exactly what you are trying to do for Beams. Which are already retardedly powerful as it is. And now you want them to be even stronger.
Well there are a few differences in my Proposed Beams in comparison with the DHC and DC. First of all, my proposed Beam Array modifiers on cruisers would do the same exact damage over the same exact duration of five seconds (5 seconds). This means, the same amount of time on target is required to achieve the same amount of damage. In fact, against targets with high defense, you will likely do less damage in comparison with the regular beams.
In a Cruiser to Cruiser fight with my proposed changes to beams, you certainly will see the damage stacking up more quickly. Like I said, I want to see high and low points. Otherwise, the damage is easily overcome with little effort.
In a Cruiser to Escort fight, there should not be a big difference! Spikes will be more infrequent than with the cruiser to cruiser! Also, Escorts, due to the new slow rate of fire coming from the Cruiser and the higher miss margin at high defense, Escorts should be able to have more time on target before suffering enough damage to force them to withdraw. Only, the time on target might change from sitting on a single shield facing to maneuvering in and out, because, sitting on target will decrease defense with decreased speed and thus increase spike events.
Well there are a few differences in my Proposed Beams in comparison with the DHC and DC. First of all, my proposed Beam Array modifiers on cruisers would do the same exact damage over the same exact duration of five seconds (5 seconds). This means, the same amount of time on target is required to achieve the same amount of damage. In fact, against targets with high defense, you will likely do less damage in comparison with the regular beams.
In a Cruiser to Cruiser fight with my proposed changes to beams, you certainly will see the damage stacking up more quickly. Like I said, I want to see high and low points. Otherwise, the damage is easily overcome with little effort.
In a Cruiser to Escort fight, there should not be a big difference! Spikes will be more infrequent than with the cruiser to cruiser! Also, Escorts, due to the new slow rate of fire coming from the Cruiser and the higher miss margin at high defense, Escorts should be able to have more time on target before suffering enough damage to force them to withdraw. Only, the time on target might change from sitting on a single shield facing to maneuvering in and out, because, sitting on target will decrease defense with decreased speed and thus increase spike events.
You are still decreasing the # of shots required to get the results. That's how DHCs work.
Cruiser damage is hardly a joke. There's a reason the 4 cruiser 1 escort team works. Because cruiser damage is additive. You get enough cruiser beams cranked and target defenses, especially with burn builds start crumbling unless they have cruiser levels of D themselves as it is. Now you want to effectively decrease the amount of time required to do damage.
You're trying to fix a round hole problem with a square peg. The problem in STO is the lack of effective CC from sci ships. And in lolpve the problem is a complete lack of reason (because the npcs are nothing but Target Dummies) to use anything but DPS.
You are still decreasing the # of shots required to get the results. That's how DHCs work.
Similarly, yes.
Cruiser damage is hardly a joke. There's a reason the 4 cruiser 1 escort team works. Because cruiser damage is additive. You get enough cruiser beams cranked and target defenses, especially with burn builds start crumbling unless they have cruiser levels of D themselves as it is. Now you want to effectively decrease the amount of time required to do damage.
Cruiser damage is a joke! In the 4 Cruiser 1 escort team, it is the cumulative damage of the pack that any team can accumulate on a target. However, that team works solely because of cross healing and Extend Shields! It isn?t because Cruisers put out overly impressive damage simply because they are cruisers. They output ridiculous amounts of cross healing and unless your team has at minimum two Sci-Escorts for Buff clearing with SUB Nuke. You are likely to lose a match verses a cross healing cruiser group if your group is all Escort?s. But again, let?s get one thing strait here, it isn?t because the Cruisers are OP in the DPS arena.
You're trying to fix a round hole problem with a square peg. The problem in STO is the lack of effective CC from sci ships. And in lolpve the problem is a complete lack of reason (because the npcs are nothing but Target Dummies) to use anything but DPS.
You described the issue with the game from a very narrow perspective; only considering PVP. The solution I?m presenting addresses both PVP and PVE, whereas Science ships and Cruisers need a little help in the DPS arena to remain competitive for PVE end game content and whereas my proposal improves Cruiser verses Cruiser PVP and Science Verses Escort PVP. Escort Verses either Cruiser or Science ship doesn?t need a change and Cruiser verses Escort is barely even touched because a properly built Cruiser has a very hard time actually hitting a properly built Escort to begin with. Science Verses Cruiser is also slightly improved by my proposal because the Science ship will PROC more often and do more DPS over duration of time; yes, sensor analysis was figured in.
[qoute] You are still decreasing the # of shots required to get the results. That's how DHCs work. [/quote]
Similarly, yes.
Cruiser damage is hardly a joke. There's a reason the 4 cruiser 1 escort team works. Because cruiser damage is additive. You get enough cruiser beams cranked and target defenses, especially with burn builds start crumbling unless they have cruiser levels of D themselves as it is. Now you want to effectively decrease the amount of time required to do damage.
Cruiser damage is a joke! In the 4 Cruiser 1 escort team, it is the cumulative damage of the pack that any team can accumulate on a target. However, that team works solely because of cross healing and Extend Shields! It isn?t because Cruisers put out overly impressive damage simply because they are cruisers. They output ridiculous amounts of cross healing and unless your team has at minimum two Sci-Escorts for Buff clearing with SUB Nuke. You are likely to lose a match verses a cross healing cruiser group if your group is all Escort?s. But again, let?s get one thing strait here, it isn?t because the Cruisers are OP in the DPS arena.
You're trying to fix a round hole problem with a square peg. The problem in STO is the lack of effective CC from sci ships. And in lolpve the problem is a complete lack of reason (because the npcs are nothing but Target Dummies) to use anything but DPS.
You described the issue with the game from a very narrow perspective; only considering PVP. The solution I?m presenting addresses both PVP and PVE, whereas Science ships and Cruisers need a little help in the DPS arena to remain competitive for PVE end game content and whereas my proposal improves Cruiser verses Cruiser PVP and Science Verses Escort PVP. Escort Verses either Cruiser or Science ship doesn?t need a change and Cruiser verses Escort is barely even touched because a properly built Cruiser has a very hard time actually hitting a properly built Escort to begin with. Science Verses Cruiser is also slightly improved by my proposal because the Science ship will PROC more often and do more DPS over duration of time; yes, sensor analysis was figured in.
In what way did I NERF Escorts? Explain given my proposal if you will why you think that I did any such thing!
What i did is I propose Cruisers do more DPV and the same DPS. If an escort has a high defense, than in fact I just buffed the Escort defense verses a Cruiser because a higher DPV with the same DPS, when it misses, will be worse for a cruiser. All that means is, it is a bit more dangerous to sit on the aft arc at low speed and fire away non-stop into the cruiser. So you have to manuever a bit more...
I did buff Science verses both Cruiser and Escort. Just saying. Science ships need help right now.
Buffing cruisers and sci vessels alone is what is commonly known as a "ninja-nerf" of the escort.
I?m not trying to balance things based entirely on how one class fights its own class. I gave specific examples of how the changes I proposed would affect the other classes in my first post. Did you forget what you read already? That is some serious short term memory! I feel I already rebutted your complaint here in my first post.
You entirely missed the point of my argument. However, this I can explain better and with mathematics so that it will be more clear and evident that I was predicting high and low points in the DPS curve, although, overall no change in DPS over time.
Let us take for example a single beam array that does one hundred (100 DPV) damage per volley. This beam array fires four times over five seconds (5 seconds). Thus, we can figure out mathematically, that it will do an average eighty damage per second (80 DPS). Now, let us take my proposed beam array and assume it does two hundred (200 DPV) damage per volley. Now, in order to maintain the eighty damage per second on average; this beam array can only fire twice over the same five seconds (5 sec.).
So let?s summarize!!!
We have the regular beam array that has these values: 100DPV ? 80DPS: 4 cycles over 5sec.
We have the proposed beam array that has these values: 200PDV -80DPS: 2 cycles over 5sec.
Now let us figure in an average accuracy of eighty percent (80%) just like you wanted to use in your argument above. Four cycles of the regular beam array yield an average of 3.2 shots that will hit the target. Two cycles of the proposed beam array yield an average of 1.6 shots that will hit the target. Now let?s plug those averages in shall we? (200 DPV * 1.6 = 320) (100 DPV * 3.2 = 320) So far it looks like your assumption was correct, as it should be because I specifically stated I didn?t want to change the overall DPS over duration of time. Now, what you might not understand immediately is that there will be periods where DPS actually fluctuates even though over an extended period of time the average DPS should be actually equal.
For example, the game does not calculate a half of a hit. It either hits or it does not hit. So let us use an accuracy of only 70% and see what happens.
So what happened above? Well, we had to round to the nearest whole number. Therefore, the proposed beam array will seemingly sometimes have a 50/50 chance to hit because it only has two cycles while the four cycle beam array will seemingly hit 70% of the time. However, mathematically, the DPS over time will even out.
I hope that helps you better understand the proposed change with Cruiser Weapon. Now, how that plays into fighting against Cruisers, Escorts and Science Ships. Well? obviously higher Defense will play into the Escorts favor more often. Cruisers with their lower defense, will be able to damage each other due to better spike potential and science vessels, like escorts, could benefit from higher defense as well.
Anyway, I put a huge amount of effort into this proposal. If people don?t like it, that is fine. However, I made sure not to bias against any particular ships type. If anything, Science Vessels are getting the best tweak with these proposed changes in my original post.
You absolutely wrong, wrong, wrong! What I?m trying to do is slightly even out the DPS potential of each of the three classes in PVE because in PVE Defense hardly matters against the AI.
However, in PVP, Defense value and accuracy are extremely important. With my proposed changes, overall DPS over duration of 60 seconds will not change between an Escort to Cruiser or Cruiser to Science Vessel. It will change slightly Cruiser to Cruiser and it will change even more slightly Science to Escort, but not Escort to Science. The only reason Science will see a bigger change, although still small, is because the Science vessel will have a innate better accuracy modifier. Thus why the damage penalty I applied to that class of ship.
BTW, I appreciate your continued rebuttals, it allows me to further build my case that these modifiers will indeed help bring some more balance between the three classes in PVE DPS and slightly improve the PVP in Cruiser to Cruiser and Science to every both Cruiser and Escort, while hardly touching Cruiser to Escort/Escort to Cruiser or Cruiser to Science.
Well first off your last counter argument was "So that Cruisers are more effective when fighting at each-other. It has nothing to do with how Cruiser deals with Escorts. See, you didn?t even consider that did you?" does that not sound like a balance to cruiser v cruiser?
Im not sure what your argument with my logic of dps is. I'm saying the dps over time will be the same, and your arguing with me on that point despite continually saying yourself that the dps over time will be the same?
As far as me being wrong,wrong, wrong, I thought you wanted discussion on the subject. I'm giving you my opinions on it and your reacting like Sophie. I stated that your trying to lessen the gap of threat that cruisers weapons produce vs an escorts. Your counter argument is that your not trying to lessen the gap, but instead trying to even it out? Isn't that the same thing
Tell you what will happen with this change. Ppl ******** about 4 cruiser teams will really have something to complain about. Biggest drawback to a 4 cruiser team is lack of burst damage. This change would only encourage this team setup
Well there are a few differences in my Proposed Beams in comparison with the DHC and DC. First of all, my proposed Beam Array modifiers on cruisers would do the same exact damage over the same exact duration of five seconds (5 seconds). This means, the same amount of time on target is required to achieve the same amount of damage. In fact, against targets with high defense, you will likely do less damage in comparison with the regular beams.
In a Cruiser to Cruiser fight with my proposed changes to beams, you certainly will see the damage stacking up more quickly. Like I said, I want to see high and low points. Otherwise, the damage is easily overcome with little effort.
In a Cruiser to Escort fight, there should not be a big difference! Spikes will be more infrequent than with the cruiser to cruiser! Also, Escorts, due to the new slow rate of fire coming from the Cruiser and the higher miss margin at high defense, Escorts should be able to have more time on target before suffering enough damage to force them to withdraw. Only, the time on target might change from sitting on a single shield facing to maneuvering in and out, because, sitting on target will decrease defense with decreased speed and thus increase spike events.
Teleon, what's your @handle and toon names ingame? I'm just curious because your responses and the way you describe balance in one ship vs another ship (1v1) scenarios sure reminds me of someone else that frequents these forums.
I'll say it again, balance should be determined on how each class fits into a team, not how it performs on its own
Ghostys analogy of dc's vs dhc's is actually EXACTLY what your talking about. Look at the stats of both. They have the same dps, but dhcs do more dpv (burst) which also equates to more dps due to power draw which will also happen in your idea.
So essentially, your idea gives cruisers the ability to make any energy weapon a "heavy" version of itself...INCLUDING dhc's on Klingon cruisers (dual heavy heavy cannons), that no other class can use. Are you still not understanding how that isn't balanced? A BO3 from a dual beam bank on a cruiser will be way more powerful than from an escort since on a cruiser it would be a heavy dual beam bank.
Ghostys analogy of dc's vs dhc's is actually EXACTLY what your talking about. Look at the stats of both. They have the same dps, but dhcs do more dpv (burst) which also equates to more dps due to power draw which will also happen in your idea.
So essentially, your idea gives cruisers the ability to make any energy weapon a "heavy" version of itself...INCLUDING dhc's on Klingon cruisers (dual heavy heavy cannons), that no other class can use. Are you still not understanding how that isn't balanced? A BO3 from a dual beam bank on a cruiser will be way more powerful than from an escort since on a cruiser it would be a heavy dual beam bank. Single heavy cannons on cannon builds would be crazy on tacbuilds and have the ability to BO spike harder than anything else in the game?
Teleon, what's your @handle and toon names ingame? I'm just curious because your responses and the way you describe balance in one ship vs another ship (1v1) scenarios sure reminds me of someone else that frequents these forums.
I take offense to that simply because I think I have an idea of who you are talking about. I can?t post my handle because it is against forum rules, but send me a PM and I?ll give it to you gladly. I?ve been on these forums since BETA testing. My forum name has remained mostly the same, see my signature!
I'll say it again, balance should be determined on how each class fits into a team, not how it performs on its own
I completely agree that balance should be determined on how each class fits into a team specific role and not on how it functions alone or even verses a single class. Let?s build upon this discussion from this point on. Just remember one thing though, any change to PVP must make sense also to PVE otherwise it is a futile effort.
The examples I gave were very specific in answering very specific points that you had brought up. I apologize if that gave the impression that I felt Ship Y had to be able to compete with ship X on the issue of DPS or whatnot. The proposal I present does address how DPS is delivered by the different Ship Types in game as far as (Science, Escort and Cruiser). It maintains Escorts as the Highest Possible DPS ships, with the highest Spike Damage potential, Cruisers as moderate DPS with limited spike potential and Science Ships as lowest of the DPS outputs but steady.
I believe what you think I?m trying to do is close the DPS gap between all the classes. Well, that isn?t really my aim per say in the realm of PVP. In PVE I do think that DPS is very important because that is simply how Cryptic made things. Therefore, the changes I propose do close the gap a little bit because the changes I propose do in fact help DPS against the AI; which doesn?t have a defense ratting to worry about or abilities or resistances and is essentially a punching bag.
However, when you translate the changes I made into PVP, there is little impact in comparison with PVE. Mathematically, Cruisers don?t deal any more DPS over 60 seconds to Escorts or Science Ships. To other Cruisers they do see a slight increase in total damage dealt over 60 seconds because of Beam Overload which I have not been able to estimate how that could affect PVP with Escorts. It is very dependent upon the Escorts Defense rating and the Cruisers accuracy rating. Science ships negligibly do more DPS over 60 seconds. However, their increased PROC rate helps them where their Bridge Officer abilities fail them. Mainly with Shield Stripping, Subsystem targeting and Power Drain builds.
Anyway, I suppose, after crunching so many numbers I?m failing to see the disparity in altering slightly how DPS is handled between the classes. You say I?m NERFing Escorts, yet, the numbers say otherwise. The only real difference that would be noticeable is between Cruisers when firing at each-other.
Comments
The problem is that sci powers have been nerfed into the dirt. My lulz recon build is down to the last option as far as sci powers go. If they nerfed VM, I'd be completely done with sci vessels all together. My sci does next to no damage, but can be your worst nightmare when I'm on a competent team. TRIBBLE with their opponents is exactly what sci should be designed to do.
Your premise is buff sci and cruisers, but not escorts basically is like saying "let's nerf escorts"
I don't think thats a step towards over all balance.
I completely understand that. I?m not saying that this balance method will solve the issues with Science Bridge Officer Abilities not functioning correctly nor will it solve the issue with the relationship between Flow Capacitors and power insulator resistances and Buff of abilities.
This proposal for change really doesn?t propose a serious increase to DPS for Science Vessels. The accuracy helps with the natural Beam Target Abilities and the fast firing rate will help with the PROC of the Energy weapons thereby making certain infrequently used energy weapons more viable in Power Drain builds and Shield Stripping builds when supplemented with the correct Bridge Officer Abilities and Skill point usage.
I?m sorry if you feel I?m giving off the impression that I think DPS is the number one issue with balance in the game. It isn?t, but it is an issue in PVE five man groups and to, perhaps a lesser extent PVP.
In what way did I NERF Escorts? Explain given my proposal if you will why you think that I did any such thing!
What i did is I propose Cruisers do more DPV and the same DPS. If an escort has a high defense, than in fact I just buffed the Escort defense verses a Cruiser because a higher DPV with the same DPS, when it misses, will be worse for a cruiser. All that means is, it is a bit more dangerous to sit on the aft arc at low speed and fire away non-stop into the cruiser. So you have to manuever a bit more...
I did buff Science verses both Cruiser and Escort. Just saying. Science ships need help right now.
Pve in this game is so easy, even in my sci spec, I could jump my TRIBBLE into a scort and do fine in a STF. In a pug, I'll still do better than 90% of the ppl Ill end up teamed with.
I only say all of this because I want cryptic to FIX the problem instead of throwing band aids on it
First off, if you buff 2 classes but not the third, it can be seen as nerfing the one that gets no buff. If your honestly trying to say adding burst damage to a cruiser isn't a buff, then why do it at all?
Second, you won't MISS anymore or less % with a higher dpv vs dps with everything else being equal. You'll miss exactly the same percentage.
Third, in your own words you described an escort having to change its tactics in order to survive. That sure sounds like it has a negative effect on scorts to me?
FYI...my main is a sci/oddy. Just wanted to make that clear before I'm accused of defending a class I suck at playing
So that Cruisers are more effective when fighting at each-other. It has nothing to do with how Cruiser deals with Escorts. See, you didn?t even consider that did you? I think you assume I hate Escorts or something, I don?t. I just don?t see any need to tweak them as they do very well verse everything but a pure Tank build or a better escort.
That is true; you will miss the exact same percentage of shots. However, if you consider that the cruiser will fire less often to maintain the same DPS in order to achieve that higher DPV. Then every miss will in fact reduce its effective DPS verse an Escort. The only time that the Cruiser will have an advantage verse the Escort is if for some reason its defense approaches 0; which can happen. However, between holds and reduced periods of defense, the escort won?t really notice any difference fighting a cruiser.
A change in tactics is not a NERF! It is true that with the change Escorts won?t want to be caught very long at reduced defense values. Defense decreases as speed decreases. However, Cruisers won?t want to see Escorts with increased defense, as a miss for them will negatively affect how much DPS is being put on target. I think you are confused about my saying increased DPV at the same level of DPS. That is just a stat. In practice. The Increased DPV at the same DPS against a high Defense Escort will result in the Cruiser dealing even less DPS to the Escort. However, if the escort is stopped and closer to 0 defense, the cruiser will deal damage more quickly to the Escort. It is a trade-off situation that both ships can try and take advantage of.
Ok, fair enough. I had assumed you were an Escort Guy. In your case, it would be bad for you if the escort was flying at higher speeds strafing you with alpha strikes than it would be for him to sit on your aft and just shoot, shoot, shoot because your time on target and effective DPS will drop as it should against a target with good defense rating. With the change I suggest, this drop will be more easily seen. Yet, an escort stuck in a tractor beam will seriously be afraid of a broadside from a cruiser with six beams. See how that works?
I can see where a ship or ship class modifier of the parameters in question might be easier to balance and could help distinguish ship performance.
Neat idea. Whether it's a good one or not, I'll leave to others to debate.
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
For non-combat PvE as examples:
There's no benefit to using Sci ships/abilities for gathering anomolies.
Ships have no cargo holds, so there's no benefit to flying transports/cruisers in terms of moving resources from point A to B. There's also no real need to transport resourses from points A to B.
There's no advanced medical bays on ships nor need for them.
There's no advanced research ships nor reasons to have them.
Examples For Combat Oriented Gameplay:
There's no benefit other than boff layout for using one type of ship over another since there are so many ways to boost power, the power level bonuses are more nice bonuses than must haves.
There's no plus X to Sci abilities for Sci ships. Eg Plus 50 particle gen for Tholian Sci ships. Also, Sci ability base effects are too low to be effective in PvE in general.
No real design need for a grind out DoT + survivability for seige type situations. Also, spike repair capabilities hurt this.
No reason for recon missions.
No special forces type high risk high priority target missions.
No asymetric warfare type missions.
Not that all of these things should be in a Star Trek game, but if the base objectives are too narrow in scope than there's no real room for variety.
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
If your dps is the same but with higher burst and less ROF, then your dps will be the same over time with everything being equal. Your argument that a missed shot doesn't make sense. For instance, in the current system you shoot a beam 10 times in ten seconds for 100 damage each, but your accuracy is 80% so you miss twice, you'd deal 800 damage in ten secs equating to 80 dps. Now let's double the dpv but cut the ROF by half. Now you fire five times at 200 damage and miss once with the same 80% accuracy. You've now dealt 800 damage over ten secs...again.
So let's say your right and it's not a nerf. It sure isn't balanced either. What your trying to do is shorten the gap of threat that a cruiser and sci's weapon damage produces vs what an escort can do. The ability for a cruiser to support a team is already OP as it is now. By also buffing it's ability to be more dangerous in the damage department only pushes it further into being OP unless your going take something away from cruisers or add something to escorts to compensate.
1) Since there is absolutely nothing else to do in this game but DPS, I like the cruiser changes. A modest increase in DPV might help to end the dream team of 5 escorts rolling PvE. Except for KDF cruisers there is no reason to fly anything but an escort. So suck it up escort pilots, cruisers online is still far away, if anything escort tanking has gone way over board, either that needs to be nerfed, or cruisers need a dmg buff.
2) Sci ships: Need a buff, and i also really like the idea for it to be a team buff. I have brought a similar idea up a few times already. Why not make those Team boni something that is specific for each sci ship, eg. Nebula increases Acc, Intrepid Hull regen...
THis would up sci viability in solo pve, where they suck the most. And if we put a limit to the buff stacking it would prevent 5 sci ships from being the new got to combo for PvP arenas. Give us a reason to bring sci on our teams.
However, since the KDF has already lost the escort race, the KDF is in desperate need of some worthwhile upgrades as well.
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
Try the Tykens Doff... if you get a lucky proc, you can drain 100+ from ALL sybsystems, AoE.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=367061
You entirely missed the point of my argument. However, this I can explain better and with mathematics so that it will be more clear and evident that I was predicting high and low points in the DPS curve, although, overall no change in DPS over time.
Let us take for example a single beam array that does one hundred (100 DPV) damage per volley. This beam array fires four times over five seconds (5 seconds). Thus, we can figure out mathematically, that it will do an average eighty damage per second (80 DPS). Now, let us take my proposed beam array and assume it does two hundred (200 DPV) damage per volley. Now, in order to maintain the eighty damage per second on average; this beam array can only fire twice over the same five seconds (5 sec.).
So let?s summarize!!!
We have the regular beam array that has these values: 100DPV ? 80DPS: 4 cycles over 5sec.
We have the proposed beam array that has these values: 200PDV -80DPS: 2 cycles over 5sec.
Now let us figure in an average accuracy of eighty percent (80%) just like you wanted to use in your argument above. Four cycles of the regular beam array yield an average of 3.2 shots that will hit the target. Two cycles of the proposed beam array yield an average of 1.6 shots that will hit the target. Now let?s plug those averages in shall we? (200 DPV * 1.6 = 320) (100 DPV * 3.2 = 320) So far it looks like your assumption was correct, as it should be because I specifically stated I didn?t want to change the overall DPS over duration of time. Now, what you might not understand immediately is that there will be periods where DPS actually fluctuates even though over an extended period of time the average DPS should be actually equal.
For example, the game does not calculate a half of a hit. It either hits or it does not hit. So let us use an accuracy of only 70% and see what happens.
Regular Beam Array (100 DPV * 3 = 300)
Proposed Beam Array (200 DPV *1 = 200) or (200 DPV * 2 = 400)
So what happened above? Well, we had to round to the nearest whole number. Therefore, the proposed beam array will seemingly sometimes have a 50/50 chance to hit because it only has two cycles while the four cycle beam array will seemingly hit 70% of the time. However, mathematically, the DPS over time will even out.
I hope that helps you better understand the proposed change with Cruiser Weapon. Now, how that plays into fighting against Cruisers, Escorts and Science Ships. Well? obviously higher Defense will play into the Escorts favor more often. Cruisers with their lower defense, will be able to damage each other due to better spike potential and science vessels, like escorts, could benefit from higher defense as well.
Anyway, I put a huge amount of effort into this proposal. If people don?t like it, that is fine. However, I made sure not to bias against any particular ships type. If anything, Science Vessels are getting the best tweak with these proposed changes in my original post.
You absolutely wrong, wrong, wrong! What I?m trying to do is slightly even out the DPS potential of each of the three classes in PVE because in PVE Defense hardly matters against the AI.
However, in PVP, Defense value and accuracy are extremely important. With my proposed changes, overall DPS over duration of 60 seconds will not change between an Escort to Cruiser or Cruiser to Science Vessel. It will change slightly Cruiser to Cruiser and it will change even more slightly Science to Escort, but not Escort to Science. The only reason Science will see a bigger change, although still small, is because the Science vessel will have a innate better accuracy modifier. Thus why the damage penalty I applied to that class of ship.
BTW, I appreciate your continued rebuttals, it allows me to further build my case that these modifiers will indeed help bring some more balance between the three classes in PVE DPS and slightly improve the PVP in Cruiser to Cruiser and Science to every both Cruiser and Escort, while hardly touching Cruiser to Escort/Escort to Cruiser or Cruiser to Science.
Either that or just change it to a spot heal and drop the regen. That doff is ridiculously OP, but it's not an escort doff. My oddy survives with no rsp thanks to them
But....this is a pvp forum...
A little history less in Star Trek Online? NOTHING gets changed without FIRST ensuring it doesn?t adversely affect PVE. PVE comes FIRST and FOREMOST!!! That is Cryptic?s business model; we are the bottom of their barrel, the grime beneath their feet. Basically, they don?t really give a hoot about PVP, so don?t make PVP plans without thinking about PVE. :mad:
If you want to increase your dps as a cruiser for pve, equip single cannons and Torp Spread. It's not terribly hard guys. Also Eject Warp plasma is pretty sexy zone control, for quite a few of the STFs, (KA and cure particularly) and Fleet Actions. needed zone control even if everyone's running around in scorts.
Solo PVE is auto win, it doesn't need a buff, I say this as someone that flies an eng and cruiser.
Quit trying to balance the game for LOLPvE. It's not going to work, and will only TRIBBLE up pvp in the process.
Also increasing Cruisers Burst Damage (which is what you are doing by increasing damage per volley. It's the EXACT same reason why DCs Blow TRIBBLE and DHCs rule the field) will also greatly swing things further to the cruisers favor in pvp. Stop it.
This is how you fix the DPS Race of pve. Start having actual NPCs on the field and not just target dummies. Make it so that zone control is even more important, as is healing and you fix the problem without TRIBBLE PvP.
Ummm.. DHC and DC don't work at all like my proposal. DHC actually do more damage. Stop posting on assumptions and actually reply to relevant information!!! See I can be bossy too! :P
You want to A decrease Beam Rate of Fire. And B Increase the damage per shot they deal as a result.
Yes?
That is Exactly how a DC (current beam) works vs a DHC (your new idea).
Also, QED doing this takes a TRIBBLE on DHC cruisers.
DHCs do not do more overall DPS than a DC does or is not supposed to. It does because of how badly Cryptic coded the game, and how they failed to realize a DHC does it's dps in one volley a DC needs 4, which means you need more TOT to get the damage dealt, it also takes longer to do it which gives the target more time to heal up.
Seriously, go look at the state line DPS for a DC and then go look at a DHC.
This is Exactly what you are trying to do for Beams. Which are already retardedly powerful as it is. And now you want them to be even stronger.
sorry but this whole cruisers online is a straw-puppet. Good escorts frequently outheal reasonably skilled heal boats, so there is less of a reasons for cruiser. Since everybody seems to be fine with super tanky escorts, its seems only fair that cruisers get more burst. If all the signs are in favor of cruisers, why does almost everyone fly escorts in the 1v1 league? give me 5 of your best cruisers, and me 5 of the best escorts, and lets see who is getting done with eg. Infected space in less time? Cruisers are not OP in this game, if anything its non class specific healing, which devalues the big asset of cruisers.
So how have your balance suggestions for PvP gone down with Cryptic?? We all know that without thinking about PvE there will never be any adjustments.
Yes, EWP and single cannon builds ....been there done that. EWP on bop or armitage will always be better at zone denial then EWP on a cruiser. This isn't even close to a fix for sci boats, let alone for the fact that TAC again outshine everyone else in this setup.
I would love those changes for NPCs, but as it stands there is no reason to bring sci boats, and without toning the healing of escorts down, the native role of eng/cruisers is equally diminished. Just because some melancholic ailuropodae are putting their sci in cruisers doesn't mean that cruisers are OP and at the heart of all problems for PvP
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
Well there are a few differences in my Proposed Beams in comparison with the DHC and DC. First of all, my proposed Beam Array modifiers on cruisers would do the same exact damage over the same exact duration of five seconds (5 seconds). This means, the same amount of time on target is required to achieve the same amount of damage. In fact, against targets with high defense, you will likely do less damage in comparison with the regular beams.
In a Cruiser to Cruiser fight with my proposed changes to beams, you certainly will see the damage stacking up more quickly. Like I said, I want to see high and low points. Otherwise, the damage is easily overcome with little effort.
In a Cruiser to Escort fight, there should not be a big difference! Spikes will be more infrequent than with the cruiser to cruiser! Also, Escorts, due to the new slow rate of fire coming from the Cruiser and the higher miss margin at high defense, Escorts should be able to have more time on target before suffering enough damage to force them to withdraw. Only, the time on target might change from sitting on a single shield facing to maneuvering in and out, because, sitting on target will decrease defense with decreased speed and thus increase spike events.
You are still decreasing the # of shots required to get the results. That's how DHCs work.
Cruiser damage is hardly a joke. There's a reason the 4 cruiser 1 escort team works. Because cruiser damage is additive. You get enough cruiser beams cranked and target defenses, especially with burn builds start crumbling unless they have cruiser levels of D themselves as it is. Now you want to effectively decrease the amount of time required to do damage.
You're trying to fix a round hole problem with a square peg. The problem in STO is the lack of effective CC from sci ships. And in lolpve the problem is a complete lack of reason (because the npcs are nothing but Target Dummies) to use anything but DPS.
Similarly, yes.
Cruiser damage is a joke! In the 4 Cruiser 1 escort team, it is the cumulative damage of the pack that any team can accumulate on a target. However, that team works solely because of cross healing and Extend Shields! It isn?t because Cruisers put out overly impressive damage simply because they are cruisers. They output ridiculous amounts of cross healing and unless your team has at minimum two Sci-Escorts for Buff clearing with SUB Nuke. You are likely to lose a match verses a cross healing cruiser group if your group is all Escort?s. But again, let?s get one thing strait here, it isn?t because the Cruisers are OP in the DPS arena.
You described the issue with the game from a very narrow perspective; only considering PVP. The solution I?m presenting addresses both PVP and PVE, whereas Science ships and Cruisers need a little help in the DPS arena to remain competitive for PVE end game content and whereas my proposal improves Cruiser verses Cruiser PVP and Science Verses Escort PVP. Escort Verses either Cruiser or Science ship doesn?t need a change and Cruiser verses Escort is barely even touched because a properly built Cruiser has a very hard time actually hitting a properly built Escort to begin with. Science Verses Cruiser is also slightly improved by my proposal because the Science ship will PROC more often and do more DPS over duration of time; yes, sensor analysis was figured in.
[qoute] You are still decreasing the # of shots required to get the results. That's how DHCs work. [/quote]
Similarly, yes.
Cruiser damage is a joke! In the 4 Cruiser 1 escort team, it is the cumulative damage of the pack that any team can accumulate on a target. However, that team works solely because of cross healing and Extend Shields! It isn?t because Cruisers put out overly impressive damage simply because they are cruisers. They output ridiculous amounts of cross healing and unless your team has at minimum two Sci-Escorts for Buff clearing with SUB Nuke. You are likely to lose a match verses a cross healing cruiser group if your group is all Escort?s. But again, let?s get one thing strait here, it isn?t because the Cruisers are OP in the DPS arena.
You described the issue with the game from a very narrow perspective; only considering PVP. The solution I?m presenting addresses both PVP and PVE, whereas Science ships and Cruisers need a little help in the DPS arena to remain competitive for PVE end game content and whereas my proposal improves Cruiser verses Cruiser PVP and Science Verses Escort PVP. Escort Verses either Cruiser or Science ship doesn?t need a change and Cruiser verses Escort is barely even touched because a properly built Cruiser has a very hard time actually hitting a properly built Escort to begin with. Science Verses Cruiser is also slightly improved by my proposal because the Science ship will PROC more often and do more DPS over duration of time; yes, sensor analysis was figured in.
Buffing cruisers and sci vessels alone is what is commonly known as a "ninja-nerf" of the escort.
Well first off your last counter argument was "So that Cruisers are more effective when fighting at each-other. It has nothing to do with how Cruiser deals with Escorts. See, you didn?t even consider that did you?" does that not sound like a balance to cruiser v cruiser?
Im not sure what your argument with my logic of dps is. I'm saying the dps over time will be the same, and your arguing with me on that point despite continually saying yourself that the dps over time will be the same?
As far as me being wrong,wrong, wrong, I thought you wanted discussion on the subject. I'm giving you my opinions on it and your reacting like Sophie. I stated that your trying to lessen the gap of threat that cruisers weapons produce vs an escorts. Your counter argument is that your not trying to lessen the gap, but instead trying to even it out? Isn't that the same thing
Tell you what will happen with this change. Ppl ******** about 4 cruiser teams will really have something to complain about. Biggest drawback to a 4 cruiser team is lack of burst damage. This change would only encourage this team setup
Teleon, what's your @handle and toon names ingame? I'm just curious because your responses and the way you describe balance in one ship vs another ship (1v1) scenarios sure reminds me of someone else that frequents these forums.
I'll say it again, balance should be determined on how each class fits into a team, not how it performs on its own
So essentially, your idea gives cruisers the ability to make any energy weapon a "heavy" version of itself...INCLUDING dhc's on Klingon cruisers (dual heavy heavy cannons), that no other class can use. Are you still not understanding how that isn't balanced? A BO3 from a dual beam bank on a cruiser will be way more powerful than from an escort since on a cruiser it would be a heavy dual beam bank.
So essentially, your idea gives cruisers the ability to make any energy weapon a "heavy" version of itself...INCLUDING dhc's on Klingon cruisers (dual heavy heavy cannons), that no other class can use. Are you still not understanding how that isn't balanced? A BO3 from a dual beam bank on a cruiser will be way more powerful than from an escort since on a cruiser it would be a heavy dual beam bank. Single heavy cannons on cannon builds would be crazy on tacbuilds and have the ability to BO spike harder than anything else in the game?
I take offense to that simply because I think I have an idea of who you are talking about. I can?t post my handle because it is against forum rules, but send me a PM and I?ll give it to you gladly. I?ve been on these forums since BETA testing. My forum name has remained mostly the same, see my signature!
I completely agree that balance should be determined on how each class fits into a team specific role and not on how it functions alone or even verses a single class. Let?s build upon this discussion from this point on. Just remember one thing though, any change to PVP must make sense also to PVE otherwise it is a futile effort.
The examples I gave were very specific in answering very specific points that you had brought up. I apologize if that gave the impression that I felt Ship Y had to be able to compete with ship X on the issue of DPS or whatnot. The proposal I present does address how DPS is delivered by the different Ship Types in game as far as (Science, Escort and Cruiser). It maintains Escorts as the Highest Possible DPS ships, with the highest Spike Damage potential, Cruisers as moderate DPS with limited spike potential and Science Ships as lowest of the DPS outputs but steady.
I believe what you think I?m trying to do is close the DPS gap between all the classes. Well, that isn?t really my aim per say in the realm of PVP. In PVE I do think that DPS is very important because that is simply how Cryptic made things. Therefore, the changes I propose do close the gap a little bit because the changes I propose do in fact help DPS against the AI; which doesn?t have a defense ratting to worry about or abilities or resistances and is essentially a punching bag.
However, when you translate the changes I made into PVP, there is little impact in comparison with PVE. Mathematically, Cruisers don?t deal any more DPS over 60 seconds to Escorts or Science Ships. To other Cruisers they do see a slight increase in total damage dealt over 60 seconds because of Beam Overload which I have not been able to estimate how that could affect PVP with Escorts. It is very dependent upon the Escorts Defense rating and the Cruisers accuracy rating. Science ships negligibly do more DPS over 60 seconds. However, their increased PROC rate helps them where their Bridge Officer abilities fail them. Mainly with Shield Stripping, Subsystem targeting and Power Drain builds.
Anyway, I suppose, after crunching so many numbers I?m failing to see the disparity in altering slightly how DPS is handled between the classes. You say I?m NERFing Escorts, yet, the numbers say otherwise. The only real difference that would be noticeable is between Cruisers when firing at each-other.