Turn Rates

atrus19

I don't know who invented Cryptic's 'policy' on turn rates but here's a hint: not turning is NO FUN. Make escorts turn on a dime if you have to, but cruisers like the Ody and even the Sovvy refit need a serious turn rate buff, period. The entire concept of "big and slow" doesn't make sense in the Star Trek universe, and dont kid yourselves its not about balance, PvP is terrible, so stop using it as an excuse. Make the game more fun, buff all turn rates substantially!

azurianstar

Afraid the Turn rates are fine and goes along with what we seen on screen. The only exception is the Enterprise-D doing those sharp corner turns. You can easily boost turn rates with more engine power, SIF to AUX, or RCS Consoles. I know with the Sovereigns you can go from 11 degrees per second to 19 with Aux to SIF at minimal power.


As for PvP.......I agree.

lostusthorn

The problem is much deeper and more complex.
Let me give you a simple example.

A cruiser can turn not so well, when hammered by an escort everything goes basically to one shield facing. Because you can't turn quick enough to swing your facings into the incoming fire.

Yes you can distribute the shield, it helps, but is slow.
Then tactical team comes into play and the cruiser can shrug off the escorts alpha but the shields are severely depleted. Ok so far.

Now the opposite, the cruiser fires back, with lets say all 8 beams. the excort been so fast and nimble just swings around and presents a different shield facing. Plus the escort has so many tactical stations, especially at ensign rank. It will sport two tactical teams and gets in return thanks to that and its mobility an effective shield facing that is at least as high as that of a cruiser, but in practice is much higher.

So what do you do? Nerf tactical team so the escort is more back to glass cannon? That will hit the cruisers even harder. Why? because the cruiser still can't move its fat behind out of the way of the incoming fire.

A turn rate buff would alleviate the problem somewhat at least.

Something like +1 or +2 across the board to all cruisers/battlecruisers turn rate is definitely something that should be investigated.

travelingmaster

Instead of complaining about not being able to turn. . .work around it. Cruisers don't need to turn. There are plenty of AoE skills that can be used to great effect, and you can use more than just Tac Team to tank.

Don't forget about kicking the ship into reverse. That turns you as much as you'll ever need, not to mention all the other maneuvers that azurian mentioned.

jkstocbr

I think it makes perfect sense in the Star Trek universe.

trek21

Sorry, but the bigger ships not turning so well (even with a few exceptions on the show) is canon, and even better, works with real life science.

And really, they're not THAT terrible. I play with an Odyssey all the time, even without the turn bonus the Chevron Saucer gives me. It's just as fun as the Escort I have.

leviathan99

trek21 wrote: »

Sorry, but the bigger ships not turning so well (even with a few exceptions on the show) is canon, and even better, works with real life science.

And really, they're not THAT terrible. I play with an Odyssey all the time, even without the turn bonus the Chevron Saucer gives me. It's just as fun as the Escort I have.

What real life sciences are those?

In general, I think the game would "feel" better if you bumped all ships up by 4 or so.

velktra

stoleviathan99 wrote: »

What real life sciences are those?

Inertia. Bigger ships have more mass, so they have more inertia; even in space it would take more power to get them moving and to change their direction of travel. It should also take more braking power to stop them.

I do agree that some of the cruisers do need at least a small turning boost though, the Odyssey in particular. That thing turns so slow it's not even funny.

Escorts being faster turners is canon, however. Watch the Defiant and the Enterprise-E fight the Borg in First Contact. The Defiant is all over the place, running in and out like a wolf on the attack. The Big E is slower and makes wider, swooping turns. The size comparison when the Enterprise flies in is my favorite part of that scene though, lol.

lostusthorn

however trek has inertia dampening tech, as well as mass lightening. Plus if you fit a cruiser if a engine that has the same mass to trust ration as a escort, you get the same performance from it.

trek21

lostusthorn wrote: »

however trek has inertia dampening tech, as well as mass lightening. Plus if you fit a cruiser if a engine that has the same mass to trust ration as a escort, you get the same performance from it.

The inertial dampening is designed to prevent people from becoming blobs when going to warp. That and help make sure they don't feel the acceleration/turns at sub-light speeds.

That doesn't really mean they can make a heavy ship turn on a dime. That requires a lot of energy in the first place, and if a big ship tried that, they'd run out of power real quick because of the requirements to both move the ship, and make it turn really quick.

shimmerless

lostusthorn wrote: »

however trek has inertia dampening tech, as well as mass lightening. Plus if you fit a cruiser if a engine that has the same mass to trust ration as a escort, you get the same performance from it.

Ding ding ding ding ding

commadorebob

How a cruiser can survive an Escort attack (with this build, I can rip through a lone Escort (if they team up, it's more difficult). In PvE, I can usually rip through a pack of Birds of Prey before my first torpedo coolsdown:
Tactical Captain (I've discovered my Tactical captains destroy escorts better than engineering captains.)
Assault Cruiser or Advanced Heavy Cruiser Retrofit (these cruisers have better turn rate than Galaxies and better defensive layouts than Star Cruisers. A properly equipped Excelsior or Sovereign is a force to reckon with.)

Max out skills (as many as you can)

• Starship Weapon Training
• Driver Coils
• Starship Energy Weapons
• Starship Targeting Systems
• Starship Energy Weapon Specialization
• Starship Hull Repair
• Structural Integrity
• Starship Shield Emitters
• Starship Shield Systems
• Starship Impulse Thrusters

Equip

• 6x [Borg] antiproton beam arrays (+20% crit with each shot)
• Covariant Shields or Regenerative Shields
• 2+ EPS Flow Regulators
• Directed Energy Distribution Manifold

BOff Skills

• Emergency Power to Weapons
• Emergency Power to Shields
• Fire at Will
• Tractor Beam
• Polarize Hull

My build:
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll267/bobsentell/screenshot_2012-08-18-07-40-04.jpg
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll267/bobsentell/screenshot_2012-08-18-07-40-10.jpg
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll267/bobsentell/screenshot_2012-08-18-07-40-28.jpg

ikenstein1

You are wasting your time, OP. The devs only like tacs and escorts, nothing else. Best to give up on your sci or eng and mac a tac with an escort. You will do have about double the dps and be able to tank fine.

Sci is a waste of time. Sci ships are a joke. Sci ground kits do less dps than a single shot and take ten second to fifteen seconds to do it. Eng is pretty much worthless.Cruisers cant turn and are no fun. By the time you spam out your turrets the tac would have already killed the enemy. In STO dps >all. Just make a tac, you wont regret it.

velktra

lostusthorn wrote: »

however trek has inertia dampening tech, as well as mass lightening. Plus if you fit a cruiser if a engine that has the same mass to trust ration as a escort, you get the same performance from it.

Which is only to keep you from becoming a blob on the back wall when the ship goes to warp, and to help keep the crew and passengers from getting shaken and thrown. It doesn't make the ship turn faster, stop faster, or take off faster; it dampens the feeling of the ship's inertia so you don't feel it while inside.

kimmera

lostusthorn wrote: »

however trek has inertia dampening tech, as well as mass lightening. Plus if you fit a cruiser if a engine that has the same mass to trust ration as a escort, you get the same performance from it.

As of the TOS movies, they changed canon somewhat. The main drive is a basic conventional forward thrust. Turning is done using attitude jets, rather than redirecting the main thrust.

This means it is not just the a strict mass ratio. The larger ship also has to overcome its own thrust. It also is likely less structurally sound. There is no way that a dispersed structure like a Connie or even a Galaxy has the same base structural integrity of a Defiant. It takes more power to hold it together in a turn. The larger ship will have more hull, but that is not the same as structural integrity.

wildmousex

I keep a couple of these http://www.stowiki.org/Console_-_Engineering_-_RCS_Accelerator on my cruiser, and it turns better then my long range sci ship.

travelingmaster

ikenstein1 wrote: »

You are wasting your time, OP. The devs only like tacs and escorts, nothing else. Best to give up on your sci or eng and mac a tac with an escort. You will do have about double the dps and be able to tank fine.

Sci is a waste of time. Sci ships are a joke. Sci ground kits do less dps than a single shot and take ten second to fifteen seconds to do it. Eng is pretty much worthless.Cruisers cant turn and are no fun. By the time you spam out your turrets the tac would have already killed the enemy. In STO dps >all. Just make a tac, you wont regret it.

Either you don't PvP a lot, or you're PvPing amongst amateurs. I've seen at least 2-3 people use science ships to great effect, both in Ker'rat and in arena PvP. They can't tank quite as well as a cruiser, for the most part, but they do fine. Science ships play an important role in group PvP. . .they debuff the enemy, and reduce their combat effectiveness in overall. Cruisers do this, but good science ships make an art out of it. Tractor beam, Gravity Well/Tykens Rift, target subsystem attacks, siphons, etc. Good sci ships usually carry feedback pulse, which is nasty when used against escorts and BoPs.

Quit whining about lack of raw DPS and improvise a solution. That's what players like Minimax and the elite members of the PvP community do, utilizing the broad selection of powers available to engineering and science BOFFS. There are a number of ways to defeat a tanky escort, if you're smart enough.

trek21

ikenstein1 wrote: »

You are wasting your time, OP. The devs only like tacs and escorts, nothing else. Best to give up on your sci or eng and mac a tac with an escort. You will do have about double the dps and be able to tank fine.

Sci is a waste of time. Sci ships are a joke. Sci ground kits do less dps than a single shot and take ten second to fifteen seconds to do it. Eng is pretty much worthless.Cruisers cant turn and are no fun. By the time you spam out your turrets the tac would have already killed the enemy. In STO dps >all. Just make a tac, you wont regret it.

You clearly have no idea how things work :rolleyes:

Tac has their damage, yes, but any concentrated hit and they go down. Eng take those hits for breakfast, and easily dish out damage to focus fire upon themselves, as is their job. Sci may not have the same ability to tank or DPS, but they're not built to; they're built to buff others or debuff the enemies, hence enhancing the damage done (whether by teammates, or by yourself), in addition to crowd control.

The key to using them is the right use of tactics, and the right build.

And I take offense at no turn rate = no fun. I play an Escort, and while it's turn rate is great, I have the most fun while in my Cruiser It's much more fun to focus on abilities than pure firepower, truly

jellico1

atrus19 wrote: »

I don't know who invented Cryptic's 'policy' on turn rates but here's a hint: not turning is NO FUN. Make escorts turn on a dime if you have to, but cruisers like the Ody and even the Sovvy refit need a serious turn rate buff, period. The entire concept of "big and slow" doesn't make sense in the Star Trek universe, and dont kid yourselves its not about balance, PvP is terrible, so stop using it as an excuse. Make the game more fun, buff all turn rates substantially!

This game follows none of tos or tng cannon , the concept at
Sto is smaller carries more firepower is faster and more
Maneuverable . And to top it off we will create most of our
Content so to be successful I'n our content you must buy and use
Our small ships !

After you buy and use the ships you really wanted to play
And you find out there sub standard.we at sto make
More money off you noobs that way

We sell twice as many ships !

Have fun I'n pve with your battleship

If you want to get good loot have fun I'n pvp
Have fun I'n stfs go Tac remember smaller is better
Dps is everything.

Or be 3 times more skillfull than the Tac next to you
And be prepared to work much harder to do
Your part I'n STF and fleet events.

That big battleship you want to play will be slow
It will not turn fast enough and it will only have 1/4
Of the firepower of this small alien ship.

lomax6996

trek21 wrote: »

You clearly have no idea how things work :rolleyes:

Tac has their damage, yes, but any concentrated hit and they go down. Eng take those hits for breakfast, and easily dish out damage to focus fire upon themselves, as is their job. Sci may not have the same ability to tank or DPS, but they're not built to; they're built to buff others or debuff the enemies, hence enhancing the damage done (whether by teammates, or by yourself), in addition to crowd control.

The key to using them is the right use of tactics, and the right build.

And I take offense at no turn rate = no fun. I play an Escort, and while it's turn rate is great, I have the most fun while in my Cruiser It's much more fun to focus on abilities than pure firepower, truly

Agreed, the poster you are replying to needs to spend a bit more time perusing the forums for tips. I run both a Tac and an Eng Capt. Both have a Defiant Escort, an Excel cruiser and a Heavy Escort Carrier (similar on the KDF side). I've had great fun and good experiences with every combo available with those elements. The best build, for me, is an Eng Capt. in a well equipped Escort. But a good Tac in a well equipped cruiser does well, too. Eng in Cruiser is a flying fortress and Tac in escort is a "pew pew" terror.

And my Klingon Tac flies a Hegh'Ta heavy BOP (among others). Yeah, he goes *POP* now and again but not as often as some make it seem... and DPS is tremendous... for him it's always a good day to die escorted by a LARGE honor guard of enemies <grin>. He also commands a mirror universe Vor'Cha and does just fine in that.

I've never been much for the Science builds (tried 'em, just not my thing) but have run some STF's and Fleet Actions alongside some AWESOME Sci ships that seemed unstoppable...

bitemepwe

If the add a buff to all vessel turn rates then they need to fix the turn pivot point on the Raptors. Even with a higher turn it would still get out tremendously out turned by Defiants, the Armitage and basically all escorts. Even running twin ApO, one still has long nose travel to target. Even cranking impulse back to 1/2 or 1/4 power to increase turn, one still long nose travel to target.
Basically the Raptor is a good gun thats hard to point at a target with less durability.

darkenzedd

It would be cool to have a VA power on a 1 hour cooldown that when activated even in battle, the screen goes to cinematic mode and you do an awesome warp out escape!

A little off topic I know, but as for the topic itself, I find no problems with any of the turnrates ingame.
If you want a cruiser type ship that turns better, fly a science ship

travelingmaster

bitemepwe wrote: »

If the add a buff to all vessel turn rates then they need to fix the turn pivot point on the Raptors. Even with a higher turn it would still get out tremendously out turned by Defiants, the Armitage and basically all escorts. Even running twin ApO, one still has long nose travel to target. Even cranking impulse back to 1/2 or 1/4 power to increase turn, one still long nose travel to target.
Basically the Raptor is a good gun thats hard to point at a target with less durability.

Agreed, this is one of the reasons I don't fly Raptors. They simply don't turn well enough. They're out-turned by practically every Fed escort in the game, so you'll get turned into mincemeat in PvP, while not dishing out firepower at a decent rate. If they fixed the turn-rate issues on the raptors, I might actually bother to fly one for situations where tanking is more important than hit-and-run elusiveness.

oridjerraa

I've seen plenty of instances of cruisers turning on a dime. They are not clumsy star destroyers, they perform more like helicopters. With powerful reaction control thrusters(fusion powered like Impulse engines which means they really can't run out of fuel due to bussard ram scopes providing limitless hydrogen)cruisers at a standstill could 180' in a few seconds. Enterprise E cuts a 90' turn in less than 2 seconds in Nemisis.

Graceful, yes, slow...not on your life.

chakitty

Another way to look at things is how ships in water turn. A smallish yacht will make a turn a whole lot faster than an aircraft carrier. The same priciples that make that true apply to ships in space. Also, you could think of it in another way. The escorts are like archers. They have little protection, move fast, hit hard, and die pretty easily. The Cruisers are like heavily armored knights, hard as *bleep* to kill, but slow and cumbersome. Science ships are more a cross between the two, or if you do a lot of role playing you could compare them to rogues, crowd control and making the enemy mad as *bleep*.

hroothvitnir

chakitty wrote: »

Another way to look at things is how ships in water turn. A smallish yacht will make a turn a whole lot faster than an aircraft carrier. The same priciples that make that true apply to ships in space. Also, you could think of it in another way. The escorts are like archers. They have little protection, move fast, hit hard, and die pretty easily. The Cruisers are like heavily armored knights, hard as *bleep* to kill, but slow and cumbersome. Science ships are more a cross between the two, or if you do a lot of role playing you could compare them to rogues, crowd control and making the enemy mad as *bleep*.

No thats actually a really bad analogy. Larger ships in water turn slower in a great part due to longer beam lenght and fluid mechanics. Those things do not affect a space ship. Mass, thrust and mechanical advantage(placement of thrusters) have an effect on space flight.

dood98998

Hate to barge in here but...
While we're wishing for stuff that won't happen (even if it should) can't we wish for something crucial? Like the fixing of the xchange, or the removal of the invisa torps, of fondry turned into fe's or...
You get my point. Cruiser turn rate buff = < important than other stuff.

longasc

I would like to second the OP.

There is a point where turnrate gets so low that the ships are no longer fun to play.
Below "7" and a certain inertia I don't bother flying a ship, it's just too painful.

The legendary Galaxy Class, Enterprise D - how many Captains eager to fly it have been royally pissed off by the utter sluggishness of the ship? Especially at an relatively early level when only Mark VIII consoles and fewer skills are available.

There is a reason why the Excelsior Refit is so popular and it's mostly because it has a decent turnrate.

The Ody and the Bortas(qu) are nice to look at - but I don't use them anymore at all. They are drifting due to their inertia and their turnrate is abysmal. Not even a purple Mk XII RCS console can help much there, of course you can spend all skills and gear slots on maneuverability but in this case you simply better take another ship.


The turnrate of my Jem'Hadar Attack Ship, a Defiant or other Escorts is so high that they can run circles around very maneuverable cruisers like the D'Kora or Vor'cha. There is no need why cruisers should be that sluggish.

Even the mentioned two very maneuverable cruisers are not nearly as maneuverable as the Escorts, nevertheless they are fun to fly. They don't need an emergency maneuver to turn left to dock with a starbase like abominations like the Ody, Galaxy, Bortas or some carriers.


I totally support a better turnrate for cruisers and carriers. My special plea is to make the due to the series highly popular Enterprise D models more fun to fly. People don't play headless chicken / saucer separation because this ugly stuff is cool, but because it gives them a turnrate that doesn't make them despair!

lostusthorn

One possible solution would be to change the way the RCS consoles work.
Currently they give a bonus based on the base turn rate of the ship they are used on. Which leads in return to ships with already high turn rates to get a massive boost, while ships that actually need to console get a minuscule boost which in return makes the console not worth using.

I would suggest to change that so that the RCS consoles give a flat turn rate bonus.
Lets say between 0.5 for a mk1 white and 3 for a purple mk 12.

that way you can make cruisers turn better by a significant margin at the cost of their tanking abilities, while on the other hand reduce the insane turn rates of rcs sporting escorts.
Leveling the playing field.

One could also introduce a whole new console. the Inertia system booster, which increases the ships inertia score, which makes a ship react faster to changes in speed.
Lets say with a range of 2 for a white mk1 up to 15 for a purple mk12.

dontdrunkimshoot

anyone who thinks fed cruisers don't need a turn rate buff has never successfully utilized a kdf cruiser to its full potential. the ease of tactically using EWP vs hoping someone gets on your tail, being able to use cannons as easily as beam arrays, keeping your shield facing changing wile you get pounded on, being able to stay out of an escorts forward arc simply because you can maneuver well and fly past him. its truly night and day between the 2 faction cruisers.

the excelsior is the only fed cruiser that can turn well enough to use single canons, and just barley well enough. that new sov refit with cannons is going to have a hell of a time against escorts, it and every cruiser that turn worse then it are in the beam array only club.

all fed cruisers need a turn rate buff of 2, the nebula 1. kdf cruisers should get 1 extra trun rate too i guess. thats still far below what escorts and even below sci ships still, and the inertia score is what really makes escorts fly the way they do and cruisers fly the way they do. the inertia scores should be looked into as well, cryptic should load all the ship models into their modeling program and determine how much space the model displaces, or its volume, and assign inertia rating based on that.