Inconsistent BO spawns

kirksplat

ST-HGZ3ZQHM4
published: Testing- Do Not Play

I'm noticing some really strange issues with my BOs on a published mission. On my first ground map, they do not spawn. This makes the dialogue with BOs strange. On the second one, only 2 of them spawn, requiring me to die and respawn all of them so that I can fight well.

Anyone else experiencing these issues?

rogueeenterprise

I am a bit as well (in fact, on that mission you playtested for me). Maybe this is related to NPCs on platforms?

drogyn1701

Yes it was quite strange. Kirkfat and I tested this mission together. He has a map built on platforms which starts out as one room, and through triggers the geometry changes twice. On first beam in, none of our boffs spawned with us. We could see their dots on the map through. On the second change in geometry, suddenly one of my boffs ran up to join us.

So the question is, why are they not spawning with the player?

markhawkman

They're spawning somewhere, but it looks like they're spawning relative to the map floor, not the object the player spawns on top of. I noticed that in one of the Foundry spotlights too.

On a semi-related note, I've been seeing Boffs spawn as far as 10 meters from me even in flat terrain...

kirksplat

markhawkman wrote: »

They're spawning somewhere, but it looks like they're spawning relative to the map floor, not the object the player spawns on top of. I noticed that in one of the Foundry spotlights too.

On a semi-related note, I've been seeing Boffs spawn as far as 10 meters from me even in flat terrain...

This is really weird though, they did not seem to spawn, but then I found them crowding a spot on an entirely different place on the map AFTER the platform had disappeared and reappeared. After I found them, they refused to follow me around.

blargskull

I have also noticed on the KDF side, my BOffs sometimes cluster around me, like a "group hug". Very unlikely for a Klingon and befits a Federation Captain much more so. Well especially if you were female.

I would call this a very big glitch.

markhawkman

kirksplat wrote: »

This is really weird though, they did not seem to spawn, but then I found them crowding a spot on an entirely different place on the map AFTER the platform had disappeared and reappeared. After I found them, they refused to follow me around.

Hmm... I've noticed more issues with Boff spawns when playing on foundry than on holodeck.

I think it was tribble foundry, but I have seen exactly what you described. some of my Boffs spawned halfway down the map and they seemed to be stuck in place. It didn't happen consistently, and it went away.

Now the group hug thing... that's standard idiot mode Boff behavior for Foundry Boffs. When testing in foundry your Boffs will do things that Boffs on the live server are too smart to do.

kirksplat

Update: Trouble-shooting is of no help so far. It's the most bizarre thing that I've ever seen my BOs do. They are simply spawning on a different part of the map. They stay at that part of the map at a high y elevation of 99, despite the floor disappearing twice.

I thought maybe the system was pushing them out of the box of platforms and walls, into another box of platforms and walls, but no, removing the ceiling has no effect.

They simply are not spawning where they should be spawning in the published version of the map. Instead, they spawn elsewhere and stay at that spot, even if they have no floor to stand on.

markhawkman

did you try tweaking the start position? just a slight location change?

kirksplat

markhawkman wrote: »

did you try tweaking the start position? just a slight location change?

Yes, although moving the spawn point significantly would mean moving 300+ items on the map by the same value, due to the way that it's set up. I have also tried adjusting y relative to geometry, terrain, etc. In the published version, the BOs all spawn elsewhere.

rogueeenterprise

I actually "remedied" this by making the spawn area for the player much bigger. That way I got the boffs to spawn in 100% of the time... though they pretty much immediately get lost/fall through the stage when combat starts, lol.

kirksplat

rogueeenterprise wrote: »

I actually "remedied" this by making the spawn area for the player much bigger. That way I got the boffs to spawn in 100% of the time... though they pretty much immediately get lost/fall through the stage when combat starts, lol.

I think that they have plenty of room to spawn, but they are inside a radius of 4 pattern enhancers. That could be it! I'll try to space the pattern enhancers farther apart. If that works, it would be so awesome. Thanks RE.

Edit: did not work. But, it gives me a theory. Eventually, in the place where they do spawn, it becomes a very tight transporter room. I can see the transporter props load quickly on the map before they disappear, so maybe that is what is causing it, even though they are not set to be immediately visible. Since their geometry loads, it's too tight for the spawn point? I'll try moving the spawn out of the area where the transporter pad eventually occupies.

edit edit: and no, significantly moving the spawn did not work. they are still spawn way off in the holodeck set.

kirksplat

Update: Well, because my BOs are not spawning in the published version, I made changes to the mission. Now it involves the captain going it alone and meeting up with his BOs at the spot in the holodeck where they magically appear. It works for the story, but I can imagine many cases where the revisions would be impossible, especially if the map had combat on it.

The only thing that I can really conclude is that this must have something to do with the publishing pathing. Maybe my setup is just too elaborate as far as environmental changes, so the BOs are pushed to a simpler part of the map.

palpha2clearance

i had a similar problem in the spotlighted "meduca" series, sometimes my boffs would spawn into the floor, i would set a way point close to them and they were able to finally jump out

zer0niusrex

UPDATE!

I've been working on this issue, trying to figure it out, and we have!

It's kind of a bad news/good news thing.

First a brief explanation of how the pathing system works:

• The pathing info for a map (beacons) are calculated based on the spawn point on the map.
• Usually, this is just on the ground, wherever you place the spawn point.
• If you create a custom interior using an exterior map, by laying down platforms and building blocks, etc, it will create pathing info on that.
• HOWEVER, if objects are set to have their visibility toggled, they will be ignored when pathing is calculated.
  • This is required so that NPCs don't try to walk through an object that is made invisible later, for instance.

The behavior of the Bridge Officers in this mission is caused because the floor that Kirk has them spawning on is set to be invisible at a later time. Since the floor's visibility is toggled, the pathing is calculated at the spawn point, with the Y value corresponding to the nearest non-toggled place: the ground way way way below. (Sorry if I'm explaining too much of the behind-the-scenes stuff, Kirk.)


So that's the technical information. Now, what this means for you.

If you want the mission to work as you'd expect it, you could place your two floors at basically the same place, as long as they don't have much depth. Have the toggled one be the second floor, not the one you start at, and have it just ever so slightly higher than what you spawn at. (Hope that makes sense!) I haven't tested this myself yet, but it would probably work.

That being said, what Kirk has found is a great way to prevent the player's bridge officers from accompanying the player. So... woo!

Basically what you have to do is place a floor that turns invisible at some point in your mission. It can be upon completion of the final objective on that map, and it would work ok. On that floor, make sure you've got at least a couple "rooms"--one where you want the mission to take place, and one where you want the bridge officers to be. In the bridge officer room, leave one of the walls open. (I.e. don't put a wall there.)


Hope my explanation has helped.

designationxr377

Well, now that we know what's going there it makes a lot of sense.

I love the irony though of now having a near surefire way of removing a boff team. It feels very Cave Johnson and Aperture Science.

"Sorry investors, as it turns out bombarding someones skin with highly energized anti-protons does not remove unsightly blemishes.

However, we are happy to announce our new Portable Death Ray; guaranteed to leave nothing left of the unfortunate recipient but fillings!"

markhawkman

ah, thanks! that was a very helpful explanation Zero!

denizenvi

Very interesting. This seems to explain why boffs almost always get lost on Conjoined.

Unfortunately, given the toggling visibility is pretty key on that map, I guess this means it can't really be 'fixed' by me without negating the key feature. But now I know what the issue is, maybe I can 'suggest' the crew stay behind on some stable geometry and avoid pathing altogether.

bluegeek

Just so I understand this... you're saying that BO's will not cross over any object that is set to become invisible? Or that they won't spawn on top of one? Or both?

markhawkman

bluegeek wrote: »

Just so I understand this... you're saying that BO's will not cross over any object that is set to become invisible? Or that they won't spawn on top of one? Or both?

The way I read it is that the map is pathed so that Boffs will attempt to walk THROUGH them.

zer0niusrex

markhawkman wrote: »

The way I read it is that the map is pathed so that Boffs will attempt to walk THROUGH them.

^this.

The pathing is calculated as though the object isn't there.

kirksplat

I tested this and the results are not confirming the theory.

I put a platform set to disappear up in the air right next to a platform that doesn't go away. The BOs spawn easily (in the published map) on the platform that is set to go invis.

I'm thinking maybe the pathing has more to do with walls than with the floor.

nagorak

zer0niusrex wrote: »

^this.

The pathing is calculated as though the object isn't there.

Is this new behavior, because it definitely did not used to work like this?

zer0niusrex

nagorak wrote: »

Is this new behavior, because it definitely did not used to work like this?

This is how it has always worked. I may be explaining it poorly, but no changes have been made to that system.

kirksplat

Or I wonder if it is because there is a building that eventually occupies the space where the original spawn point is. The BOs auto path around buildings, so the spawn pushes them to a spot in the holodeck where they are outside of the building. Perhaps it's not related to the floor then.

markhawkman

Time for yet another hare brained test on my part.

markhawkman

Well, I saw all sorts of flaky behavior, but I couldn't replicate what happened with Kirk.

Number one flake? Spawning outside the object I set to cover the spawn point even though it wasn't there yet.... Once I spawned standing in mid air on top of the object that wasn't there yet......

kirksplat

markhawkman wrote: »

Well, I saw all sorts of flaky behavior, but I couldn't replicate what happened with Kirk.

Number one flake? Spawning outside the object I set to cover the spawn point even though it wasn't there yet.... Once I spawned standing in mid air on top of the object that wasn't there yet......

This must be what is happening to me. It's strange that it's pushing my boffs out but not me.

markhawkman

Hmm... Maybe. It USUALLY didn't do it to me. Usually.... Also it only seemed to do it when the spawn point was elevated. Or maybe it was most noticable then..... I tried it on ground with a giant foundation cube and got nothing. It didn't affect me or my Boffs. But a raised platform with Klingon barrels got different results. It may be related to geometry though. The way the game determines if you're 'inside' soemthing is odd. it seems to look primarily at the location of your feet, but also sometimes ignores hollow objects. The barrel pile I used has a lot of internal geometry and a clearly defined bottom.

The confusing part is that it isn't consistent. It doesn't always work the same way twice. But, it doesn't really seem random, but as if an unknown variable is involved. *scratches head*

One of my tests involved using very large buildings to cover the spawn point. This had no effect, but that was on the ground only. I didn't think to try it in the air. Oh yeah... for whatever reason I only noticed the really flaky stuff when using an elevated platform that was set to disappear. An elevation of 1 produced no difference, but at an elevation of 39 it did weird stuff.

for a demo of what I mean by semi-random, try the demo mission I published named "movement testing"

The first map has a simple setup, run straight forward, when you hit the trigger(it's a really small one) a giant stone cube appears on top of you. Around 50% of the time you get relocated to the top of the cube, the other 50% you get pushed by the way you came. Why? What makes the difference? The speed you moved, the precise location where you reached the trigger? I can't seem to find an answer.

nagorak

zer0niusrex wrote: »

This is how it has always worked. I may be explaining it poorly, but no changes have been made to that system.

I guess the thing is it doesn't seem consistent with what I've witnessed. Boffs in my experience have trouble navigating door - walls, even if the walls are hidden at some point in the mission. They just get stuck in the door. If pathing were just ignoring them you'd think they'd just jump through.

kirksplat

nagorak wrote: »

I guess the thing is it doesn't seem consistent with what I've witnessed. Boffs in my experience have trouble navigating door - walls, even if the walls are hidden at some point in the mission. They just get stuck in the door. If pathing were just ignoring them you'd think they'd just jump through.

Yep, there is something deeper here. Perhaps a fundamental flaw with pathing that has never been found. Or, if it is known, it's never been handled. Maybe this is really the true reason that Cryptic's corridors are the size of cargo bays? Just speculation.