It may come off that I hate the KDF, but it not true I am just a sensationalist.
If there were no KDF my 3 KDF toons would stop sending resources and contraband to aid in my Fed toons starbase efforts!! I depend on them everyday to provide contraband to my 5 Fed toons - they are very important to my account!
OK now how to help the KDF image:
You might have missed it because it was taken down really quick and the guy probably got more than just a warning - but he was suggesting do all sorts of nasty things to harrass Fed players- they whole idea would have made things worse for the KDF
So every KDF player out there Please do this whenever you are out there:
I want you to hit every single Fed ship you see with Raiding party - not so they can come to KDF space but so they can go Faster! Eventually every Fed ship will notice that raiding party makes them go faster and that the KDF is handing it out like candy
Right now almost no-one gives a Fed raiding party - but flying around in my BoP I get hit with Diplomatic immunity quite often
So try this and lets see if we get a positve shift in attitude towards the KDF from alot of Fed players who don't give it much thought
Its easy and simple and I do it as much as i can while doffing.
Did you just graduate from the sollvax school of posting or something?
Don't follow him much but he follows my threads.
Still go out there and make it a priority - if in fleets make it fleet policy
A massive wave of KDF players passing out Raiding party to Fed players - for a lot of Fed players they will start going faster and wonder why? Soon many Fed players will come to consider the KDF as necessary
I don't exactly thing a lot of people would notice, because there is simply no fear factor when some Klingon battleship shadows a Fed in sector space. There's no warp combat or any sort of PvP interaction anyway.
Those pilots who do care about extreme (trans)warp speeds probably are going to be going warp 20 and above and have their own DI. Those who don't care (like me) will just plod along on W10 on Omega / Aegis drives with the game alt tabbed or doff window maximized.
The only sort of impact from shadowing enemy ships is when I deliberately go to Regulus or Eta Eridani and stalk Mirandas and other lowbie ships, and then again since I can't block them or initiate any sort of interaction it's nothing more than a little pointless roleplaying activity.
From the end-user Fed newbie perspective I can probably go 'wow' at the insanely awesome giant KDF ship pulls up ahead and gives raiding party but the duration of said 'wow' effect is probably akin to driving past a ad banner beside the interstate with a pretty lady on it - I don't really give a **** because I got my own mission to tend to.
Anyone else feel the same? I'm all for promoting KDF thru in-game interaction but there are better ways to do so, from fleet formation flight in sector space, zone chat invasions to leading PUG elite STFs and teaching new Fed players thru battlefield dominance.
STF Flight Instructor since Early 2012. Newbies are the reason why STO lives and breathes today. Do not discriminate.
I don't exactly thing a lot of people would notice, because there is simply no fear factor when some Klingon battleship shadows a Fed in sector space. There's no warp combat or any sort of PvP interaction anyway.
.
the effects of RP and DI are stackable - so they will notice - espectially during the tour
full driver coil+slipstream+Raiding party+Diplomatic+ borg eng = warp 39.9
who's talking about stalking - just hit every Fed ship with RP as you fly by and only bother with the VA who can go above warp 10
The purpose is to get the Feds to like the KDF - you sound like you want them to fear the KDF = KDF disappearing as a faction
The ideas that you are referring to as being bad are much better than yours. I didn't even know Raiding Party was a KDF thing, I am sure I am not alone.
Cloaking generators break down at first sign of language.
The ideas that you are referring to as being bad are much better than yours. I didn't even know Raiding Party was a KDF thing, I am sure I am not alone.
No wonder the KDF is dying a slow death - you all want confrontation - that does not work - the KDF continues to decline.
And since the Devs have no intention of adding more KDF content any time soon or ever - there is only 1 possible route left to keep the KDF from falling off a cliff - improve the image/perception of the KDF as the bad guys
PvP is done - dead - gone - never ways or will be - so might as well end the war
If you love PvP and you are a KDF player how come I don't see the KDF vs KDF pvp Q lite up like a christas tree all the time?
The purpose is to get the Feds to like the KDF - you sound like you want them to fear the KDF = KDF disappearing as a faction
LOL true, but then again, that's the whole point of the Klingon warrior act. People fear the image of crazy bat'leth wielding soldiers chopping them to tiny little pieces, and quake in their soft cozy sofas when they see a legion of unstoppable demon-like Bortasqus and Kar'fis bearing down on their overweight helpless cruisers in PvP
The moment we start helping the Feds instead of blowing up, we lose our Klingon traditions and might as well get assimilated by the Federation.
In my point of view, it's fact that Klingons are supposed to be powerful and fearsome that people want to be part of a Great House. If its yet another carebear Fed colony... there's really no allure to it.
If anything there needs to be more marketing for the KDF-specific powers. People need to know they don't need to pay $50 for a carrier or half-carrier, people also need to know they can get a DHC wielding science vessel for free (rather, they improvise one from a BoP) rather than waiting for the Vesta class which may be a long wait and cost another $50 for all 3 variants.
They can do all that as a Klingon and farm dilithium endlessly through Pi Canis raiding missions and doff raiding tasks - Dil farming as KDF is far more efficient than being the galaxy's errand boy on Fed.
STF Flight Instructor since Early 2012. Newbies are the reason why STO lives and breathes today. Do not discriminate.
No wonder the KDF is dying a slow death - you all want confrontation - that does not work - the KDF continues to decline.
And since the Devs have no intention of adding more KDF content any time soon or ever - there is only 1 possible route left to keep the KDF from falling off a cliff - improve the image/perception of the KDF as the bad guys
PvP is done - dead - gone - never ways or will be - so might as well end the war
If you love PvP and you are a KDF player how come I don't see the KDF vs KDF pvp Q lite up like a christas tree all the time?
Well, you seem to be overlooking how important it can be to have competing factions within an MMO. Practically every MMO has it to a certain extent, even LOTRO. So there needs to be a certain degree of competitiveness between the KDF and the Federation, and the best way to do that is to act as if there's at least a low-level cold war between the two factions, and to structure the storyline around it.
My PvP toon is Krov, of The House of Snoo. Beware of my Hegh'ta of doom.
We will die an honorable death... in glorious battle. Federation ideals will never take root on Qo'nos even if there is only one true warrior left in the galaxy!
STF Flight Instructor since Early 2012. Newbies are the reason why STO lives and breathes today. Do not discriminate.
PvP with the Fed is all but finished - done - gone
With Season 6 most Feds will be too busy to even think about the KDF - and the KDF will become more and more like a hollow shell
People who love star trek want to get into battle with the Fed enemies like the Borg. Jem'hadar - etc - they are not here in any large numbers to fight it out with other players
This is just not a PvP game - so you have to have something else - sure promoting the KDF as a way to farm Dilth + contraband for dilth+ resources for there Fed toons starbases are all good points - but try to make it into a battle and it will fall on deaf ears
KDF players need to adapt or move on - presenting KDF as bada$$ in this game only leads to more hate and less KDF players
Cryptic is not going to help you - so you better make the other 85% of the player base have a reason to like you - and its not fighting - that strategy has failed
Superlink? Who is that? Sounds familiar but my memory is fuzzy.
The guy who said he was a dev ingame and got banned over that once, is supposedly a personal friend with half the cast from Star Trek AND Star Wars, is a combat pilot, has his own movie production company (actually a youtube channel) and is deaf.
The guy who said he was a dev ingame and got banned over that once, is supposedly a personal friend with half the cast from Star Trek AND Star Wars, is a combat pilot, has his own movie production company (actually a youtube channel) and is deaf.
So the theory is that Levi3 is him returned?
Makes sense to me since the person you described above had an ego much like what Levi3 demostrates in his "sly politician" style diatrabe, " but I really love you guys" speech.
The KDF playerbase should serve as a helper faction to further fed goals and gameplay by giving Transwarp speed boosts? We should be the galactic gopherboy of STO?
I say do not feed the troll that wishes to put the KDF further into the background, plus make us the servants of the fed playerbase, and let the thread die.
Furthermore I would take any future posts or threads by him as dubiuos in its intentions of love of the Empire.
So the theory is that Levi3 is him returned?
Makes sense to me since the person you described above had an ego much like what Levi3 demostrates in his "sly politician" style diatrabe, " but I really love you guys" speech.
The KDF playerbase should serve as a helper faction to further fed goals and gameplay by giving Transwarp speed boosts? We should be the galactic gopherboy of STO?
I say do not feed the troll that wishes to put the KDF further into the background, plus make us the servants of the fed playerbase, and let the thread die.
Furthermore I would take any future posts or threads by him as dubiuos in its intentions of love of the Empire.
Do not feed the fed trolls.
You KDF die-hard are a "dying" breed - so you wish the KDF to crumble into dust rather than change- fine.
Less and less KDF players = less and less from Cryptic - my "No more C-store KDF ship" thread my actually prove profetic
AND I never said I love the KDF - just don't hate them - there is a big difference
If the KDF is to servive through Season 7 there are going to have to be changes - and it will have to be from the player base - Cryptic certainly won't help
"Destroying an Empire to win a war is no victory. And ending a battle to save an Empire is no defeat." -
Hmmm Levi3, lemme try to understand your non-hatred of the KDF:
You use your KDF toons to supply your fed toons
You advocate creating OP weapons for Feds to offset a percieved imbalance favoring the KDF
And now you think KDF throwing parties for Feddies will improve the KDF's image.
Hmmm Levi3, lemme try to understand your non-hatred of the KDF:
You use your KDF toons to supply your fed toons
You advocate creating OP weapons for Feds to offset a percieved imbalance favoring the KDF
And now you think KDF throwing parties for Feddies will improve the KDF's image.
You're killing me smalls
First off - the original idea of a phased cloak was just something that would be great to have on a Fed ship - PvP is done in this game - so it would be a nice thing to have even outside of that - it's just another toy after all
I think alot of Fed players should take advantage of the KDF's resource gathering advantage - more players = more likely they will support the players who KDF only
KDF old Ideals are dying like the half faction that was created - some drastic action has to come from the player base - and if it mean appeasing the Feds to keep the Empire going - so be it!
"Destroying an Empire to win a war is no victory. And ending a battle to save an Empire is no defeat." -
Cryptic doesn't want the faction because that would require them to make mission content for the faction.
They are avoiding all mission content so forget about that.
Then everything else falls into place.
No reason for new cstore ships because nobody will play a faction that cryptic can't fill so nobody will buy.
No reason for new outfits or fix outstanding bugs (ebc).
I play kdf. I cannot support the faction any more than I already do. I have purchased all kdf cstore stuff.
How cryptic can minimally support the faction: allow kdf players to buy the lockbox ships with zen.
Kdf ships Are all non-normal non-factional anyways.
Another: fed and kdf peace and let the kdf do the fed missions as consultants.
But if cryptic does that it will increase the kdf population and that will increase the "why is this the worst faction in mmo history" comments. Cryptic will never fix the faction because it is "too hard" and will always put it off until "maybe later" and they are ok with that.
If they can't monetize it they won't do it.
No wonder the KDF is dying a slow death - you all want confrontation - that does not work - the KDF continues to decline.
And since the Devs have no intention of adding more KDF content any time soon or ever - there is only 1 possible route left to keep the KDF from falling off a cliff - improve the image/perception of the KDF as the bad guys
PvP is done - dead - gone - never ways or will be - so might as well end the war
If you love PvP and you are a KDF player how come I don't see the KDF vs KDF pvp Q lite up like a christas tree all the time?
What I said had nothing to do with PvP, in fact I hate PvP... And I didn't say that was a good idea, I just said yours wasn't. Giving people a buff that they probably don't know how they got or will even notice what it does isn't going to do diddly squat towards the ways of making KDF a larger group.
Cloaking generators break down at first sign of language.
Hmmm Levi3, lemme try to understand your non-hatred of the KDF:
You use your KDF toons to supply your fed toons
You advocate creating OP weapons for Feds to offset a percieved imbalance favoring the KDF
And now you think KDF throwing parties for Feddies will improve the KDF's image.
You're killing me smalls
Making Klingons subordinate to Feds on the contrary will not improve the Empire's image. It will instead be the laughing stock of the galaxy voluntarily laying down arms and serving the enemy like worthless Vorta fawning at their Founders for as long as they live.
These ideas of collaboration fall under a category of acts punishable by death: treason.
STF Flight Instructor since Early 2012. Newbies are the reason why STO lives and breathes today. Do not discriminate.
Making Klingons subordinate to Feds on the contrary will not improve the Empire's image. It will instead be the laughing stock of the galaxy voluntarily laying down arms and serving the enemy like worthless Vorta fawning at their Founders for as long as they live.
These ideas of collaboration fall under a category of acts punishable by death: treason.
Levi3's not using collaborators, he's using his KDF toons as slaves to his Fed master. He also desires the KDF weaponry for his Fed masters because he probably doesn't want his friends to see him piloting the craft of a subordinate race.
I'd rather see the KDF expunged entirely from ST:O than to see it merged with the Federation into a single faction.
I view the whole idea of anything being done for the kdf at this point a lost cause. Cryptic bit off way more than they can chew and all they did was TRIBBLE off a portion of their playerbase. The kdf players want fair treatment(which ain't gonna happen by the way) but with the way Cryptic is focused only on Fed from here on out KDF is reduced to nothing more than the faction you roll for your alt.
I view the whole idea of anything being done for the kdf at this point a lost cause. Cryptic bit off way more than they can chew and all they did was TRIBBLE off a portion of their playerbase. The kdf players want fair treatment(which ain't gonna happen by the way) but with the way Cryptic is focused only on Fed from here on out KDF is reduced to nothing more than the faction you roll for your alt.
Absolutely KDF is great for Alt char - every Fed should have one - open this awareness to Fed players
KDF as a stand alone faction was never to be - despite promises and lip service - cryptic has no more plans for the KDF other that to let it die off
I would prefer it to remain as my alt - obviously KDF fans would prefer its removal from the game instead
But one way or the other Cryptic is done with the KDF - they don't even need to pretend any more - they may still throw a few more scraps their way but I doubt it given what has been said in the last several months
Absolutely KDF is great for Alt char - every Fed should have one - open this awareness to Fed players
KDF as a stand alone faction was never to be - despite promises and lip service - cryptic has no more plans for the KDF other that to let it die off
I would prefer it to remain as my alt - obviously KDF fans would prefer its removal from the game instead
But one way or the other Cryptic is done with the KDF - they don't even need to pretend any more - they may still throw a few more scraps their way but I doubt it given what has been said in the last several months
If you want to pander about to Feds, be my guest. I'll stick to the way the KDF is supposed to be perceived. It's been stated numerous times in this thread so I'm not going to repeat it. I'll only say this:
I will keep pushing for equality of the factions until one of three things happens. The factions become equal, Cryptic removes KDF from the game entirely, or the sun burns out.
For some of us our kdf is our main. And we take insults from the feds alot, its fed player base that has turned alot to the kdf. As a faction we tend to surpport each other alot more. And for pvp i love seeing fed ships go boom after my bop attacks tthem; pvp is not dead at all some still pvp to fear of pve crowd.
If you love PvP and you are a KDF player how come I don't see the KDF vs KDF pvp Q lite up like a christas tree all the time?
Ummmm... maybe because you would have 10 ships flying around cloaked. KvK has never had anyone in queue since I've been playing that side.
__________________________________
STO Forum member since before February 2010. STO Academy's excellent skill planner here: Link I actually avoid success entirely. It doesn't get me what I want, and the consequences for failure are slim. -- markhawman
Comments
Did you just graduate from the sollvax school of posting or something?
Don't follow him much but he follows my threads.
Still go out there and make it a priority - if in fleets make it fleet policy
A massive wave of KDF players passing out Raiding party to Fed players - for a lot of Fed players they will start going faster and wonder why? Soon many Fed players will come to consider the KDF as necessary
It's a goodwill way to promote the KDF
SuperLink LIVES!
*I'm going to hell now.*
Those pilots who do care about extreme (trans)warp speeds probably are going to be going warp 20 and above and have their own DI. Those who don't care (like me) will just plod along on W10 on Omega / Aegis drives with the game alt tabbed or doff window maximized.
The only sort of impact from shadowing enemy ships is when I deliberately go to Regulus or Eta Eridani and stalk Mirandas and other lowbie ships, and then again since I can't block them or initiate any sort of interaction it's nothing more than a little pointless roleplaying activity.
From the end-user Fed newbie perspective I can probably go 'wow' at the insanely awesome giant KDF ship pulls up ahead and gives raiding party but the duration of said 'wow' effect is probably akin to driving past a ad banner beside the interstate with a pretty lady on it - I don't really give a **** because I got my own mission to tend to.
Anyone else feel the same? I'm all for promoting KDF thru in-game interaction but there are better ways to do so, from fleet formation flight in sector space, zone chat invasions to leading PUG elite STFs and teaching new Fed players thru battlefield dominance.
My Youtube Channel
the effects of RP and DI are stackable - so they will notice - espectially during the tour
full driver coil+slipstream+Raiding party+Diplomatic+ borg eng = warp 39.9
who's talking about stalking - just hit every Fed ship with RP as you fly by and only bother with the VA who can go above warp 10
The purpose is to get the Feds to like the KDF - you sound like you want them to fear the KDF = KDF disappearing as a faction
No wonder the KDF is dying a slow death - you all want confrontation - that does not work - the KDF continues to decline.
And since the Devs have no intention of adding more KDF content any time soon or ever - there is only 1 possible route left to keep the KDF from falling off a cliff - improve the image/perception of the KDF as the bad guys
PvP is done - dead - gone - never ways or will be - so might as well end the war
If you love PvP and you are a KDF player how come I don't see the KDF vs KDF pvp Q lite up like a christas tree all the time?
LOL true, but then again, that's the whole point of the Klingon warrior act. People fear the image of crazy bat'leth wielding soldiers chopping them to tiny little pieces, and quake in their soft cozy sofas when they see a legion of unstoppable demon-like Bortasqus and Kar'fis bearing down on their overweight helpless cruisers in PvP
The moment we start helping the Feds instead of blowing up, we lose our Klingon traditions and might as well get assimilated by the Federation.
In my point of view, it's fact that Klingons are supposed to be powerful and fearsome that people want to be part of a Great House. If its yet another carebear Fed colony... there's really no allure to it.
If anything there needs to be more marketing for the KDF-specific powers. People need to know they don't need to pay $50 for a carrier or half-carrier, people also need to know they can get a DHC wielding science vessel for free (rather, they improvise one from a BoP) rather than waiting for the Vesta class which may be a long wait and cost another $50 for all 3 variants.
They can do all that as a Klingon and farm dilithium endlessly through Pi Canis raiding missions and doff raiding tasks - Dil farming as KDF is far more efficient than being the galaxy's errand boy on Fed.
My Youtube Channel
Klingons...
Well, you seem to be overlooking how important it can be to have competing factions within an MMO. Practically every MMO has it to a certain extent, even LOTRO. So there needs to be a certain degree of competitiveness between the KDF and the Federation, and the best way to do that is to act as if there's at least a low-level cold war between the two factions, and to structure the storyline around it.
We will die an honorable death... in glorious battle. Federation ideals will never take root on Qo'nos even if there is only one true warrior left in the galaxy!
My Youtube Channel
With Season 6 most Feds will be too busy to even think about the KDF - and the KDF will become more and more like a hollow shell
People who love star trek want to get into battle with the Fed enemies like the Borg. Jem'hadar - etc - they are not here in any large numbers to fight it out with other players
This is just not a PvP game - so you have to have something else - sure promoting the KDF as a way to farm Dilth + contraband for dilth+ resources for there Fed toons starbases are all good points - but try to make it into a battle and it will fall on deaf ears
KDF players need to adapt or move on - presenting KDF as bada$$ in this game only leads to more hate and less KDF players
Cryptic is not going to help you - so you better make the other 85% of the player base have a reason to like you - and its not fighting - that strategy has failed
R.I.P
The guy who said he was a dev ingame and got banned over that once, is supposedly a personal friend with half the cast from Star Trek AND Star Wars, is a combat pilot, has his own movie production company (actually a youtube channel) and is deaf.
So the theory is that Levi3 is him returned?
Makes sense to me since the person you described above had an ego much like what Levi3 demostrates in his "sly politician" style diatrabe, " but I really love you guys" speech.
The KDF playerbase should serve as a helper faction to further fed goals and gameplay by giving Transwarp speed boosts? We should be the galactic gopherboy of STO?
I say do not feed the troll that wishes to put the KDF further into the background, plus make us the servants of the fed playerbase, and let the thread die.
Furthermore I would take any future posts or threads by him as dubiuos in its intentions of love of the Empire.
Do not feed the fed trolls.
R.I.P
You KDF die-hard are a "dying" breed - so you wish the KDF to crumble into dust rather than change- fine.
Less and less KDF players = less and less from Cryptic - my "No more C-store KDF ship" thread my actually prove profetic
AND I never said I love the KDF - just don't hate them - there is a big difference
If the KDF is to servive through Season 7 there are going to have to be changes - and it will have to be from the player base - Cryptic certainly won't help
"Destroying an Empire to win a war is no victory. And ending a battle to save an Empire is no defeat." -
Kahless
You use your KDF toons to supply your fed toons
You advocate creating OP weapons for Feds to offset a percieved imbalance favoring the KDF
And now you think KDF throwing parties for Feddies will improve the KDF's image.
You're killing me smalls
Awoken Dead
Now shaddup about the queues, it's a BUG
First off - the original idea of a phased cloak was just something that would be great to have on a Fed ship - PvP is done in this game - so it would be a nice thing to have even outside of that - it's just another toy after all
I think alot of Fed players should take advantage of the KDF's resource gathering advantage - more players = more likely they will support the players who KDF only
KDF old Ideals are dying like the half faction that was created - some drastic action has to come from the player base - and if it mean appeasing the Feds to keep the Empire going - so be it!
"Destroying an Empire to win a war is no victory. And ending a battle to save an Empire is no defeat." -
Kahless
Klingons do NOT adapt, they conquer or die trying.
When the KDF are finally purged from ST:O we'll move on to another game, BANK ON IT.
Awoken Dead
Now shaddup about the queues, it's a BUG
Long live the Klingon empire
Vice Admiral Volmack ISS Thundermole
Brigadier General Jokag IKS Gorkan
Centurion Kares RRW Tomalak
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
They are avoiding all mission content so forget about that.
Then everything else falls into place.
No reason for new cstore ships because nobody will play a faction that cryptic can't fill so nobody will buy.
No reason for new outfits or fix outstanding bugs (ebc).
I play kdf. I cannot support the faction any more than I already do. I have purchased all kdf cstore stuff.
How cryptic can minimally support the faction: allow kdf players to buy the lockbox ships with zen.
Kdf ships Are all non-normal non-factional anyways.
Another: fed and kdf peace and let the kdf do the fed missions as consultants.
But if cryptic does that it will increase the kdf population and that will increase the "why is this the worst faction in mmo history" comments. Cryptic will never fix the faction because it is "too hard" and will always put it off until "maybe later" and they are ok with that.
If they can't monetize it they won't do it.
What I said had nothing to do with PvP, in fact I hate PvP... And I didn't say that was a good idea, I just said yours wasn't. Giving people a buff that they probably don't know how they got or will even notice what it does isn't going to do diddly squat towards the ways of making KDF a larger group.
Making Klingons subordinate to Feds on the contrary will not improve the Empire's image. It will instead be the laughing stock of the galaxy voluntarily laying down arms and serving the enemy like worthless Vorta fawning at their Founders for as long as they live.
These ideas of collaboration fall under a category of acts punishable by death: treason.
My Youtube Channel
Levi3's not using collaborators, he's using his KDF toons as slaves to his Fed master. He also desires the KDF weaponry for his Fed masters because he probably doesn't want his friends to see him piloting the craft of a subordinate race.
I'd rather see the KDF expunged entirely from ST:O than to see it merged with the Federation into a single faction.
Awoken Dead
Now shaddup about the queues, it's a BUG
Absolutely KDF is great for Alt char - every Fed should have one - open this awareness to Fed players
KDF as a stand alone faction was never to be - despite promises and lip service - cryptic has no more plans for the KDF other that to let it die off
I would prefer it to remain as my alt - obviously KDF fans would prefer its removal from the game instead
But one way or the other Cryptic is done with the KDF - they don't even need to pretend any more - they may still throw a few more scraps their way but I doubt it given what has been said in the last several months
If you want to pander about to Feds, be my guest. I'll stick to the way the KDF is supposed to be perceived. It's been stated numerous times in this thread so I'm not going to repeat it. I'll only say this:
I will keep pushing for equality of the factions until one of three things happens. The factions become equal, Cryptic removes KDF from the game entirely, or the sun burns out.
I can be as stubborn as a bull.
Ummmm... maybe because you would have 10 ships flying around cloaked. KvK has never had anyone in queue since I've been playing that side.
STO Forum member since before February 2010.
STO Academy's excellent skill planner here: Link
I actually avoid success entirely. It doesn't get me what I want, and the consequences for failure are slim. -- markhawman