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Why are these exploits still around #2

aytanhiaytanhi Member Posts: 107 Arc User
edited July 2012 in PvP Gameplay
First thread got deleted, posting a second thread with updated footage from today.

Videos showing the exploits in the game from the day I started to record them.

These exploits have existed since season 1, and has received no attention at all from the devs.

Please edit the thread if you must moderators, but please do not delete it until a developer responds with a solution.

Log-off Exploiter

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ex5WtMTJkmo

AFK Players in PVP

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPIIjOmT8vM

Log-off Exploiter From earlier this week

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KynOqXDSM9s

AFk players from the same fleet from today (A fleet farming PVP matches for Dilithium together is a new low imo) Lol! A new way to pvp, Premadefarm!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJfH27o5QkY

AFKer that flies into a fight and AFKs. (Shows that he's not actually AFK, just trying to get himself killed)
And how to deal with them at 4:22

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p613Q2w2ItA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_z1tIe04X0

Not an exploit, but it is affecting the PVP community greatly. This bug has been around since season 4.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQJhOCrrKRs
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Aytanhi of TSI, TSI fleet founder and leader OrganizedPVP channel Admin
Feel free to ask me about PVP or starship strategies. "No, I am not Borg!"
/channel_join OrganizedPVP If you are interested in learning PVP, looking for a team, or a private match
Post edited by aytanhi on
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Comments

  • smeagolsneakysmeagolsneaky Member Posts: 71 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    In the last video the two players in question normally get in there and contribute,:rolleyes: I would not say they are overly skilled PvP?ers but clearly you didn?t need them to win that 3v2 Santa!

    Personally I haven?t had that many afk player problems recently however it should still be recognised as another issue to address sometime.

    And very rarely do I get people logout out in front of me perhaps you need to kill them faster:D
    but again still and issue.
  • dank65dank65 Member Posts: 44 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    Because they dont care..........:(
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  • dalnar83dalnar83 Member Posts: 2,420 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    Is that antimmater spread I see on your bug :P disgusting :P
    "Cryptic Studio’s Jack Emmert (2010): Microtransactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense. I like paying one fee and not worrying about it – like my cellphone. The world’s biggest MMO isn’t item based, even though the black market item GDP is bigger than Russia … microtransactions make me want to die.”
  • mikewendellmikewendell Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    Hmmm, I could have sworn I had a post in this thread....

    I even remember it because I mentioned seeing afk'ers in fleet events and wondering why they're doing it because the marks are only turned in back to Cryptic. They I realized that maybe the farmers are going to build ready made starbases....
  • edited July 2012
    This content has been removed.
  • aytanhiaytanhi Member Posts: 107 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    There is nothing you can do against logoffski, because whatever you do would also punish those who get accidentally disconnected.


    Hardly, just make it so that there is a 10 second timer when you log-off, if you get damaged during this time it won't let you log-off. It's that simple. This kind of system is used in many other video games to great success. If you disconnect, you just get shot up and die. However, if someone joins the match before you log back in to replace you, they get your spot in the match and you are kicked out.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Aytanhi of TSI, TSI fleet founder and leader OrganizedPVP channel Admin
    Feel free to ask me about PVP or starship strategies. "No, I am not Borg!"
    /channel_join OrganizedPVP If you are interested in learning PVP, looking for a team, or a private match
  • edited July 2012
    This content has been removed.
  • emoejoeemoejoe Member Posts: 229 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    There is nothing you can do against logoffski, because whatever you do would also punish those who get accidentally disconnected.

    log off <25% come back dead. solved

    or be REAL hardcore like EVE, your ship stays in that spot for 30 minutes till u log back in. where theres a will, theres a way. too bad this gaes devs have never had any will to improve pvp or eliminate the many exploits been around for years. i for one sayyyy

    FOR SHAME!
  • aytanhiaytanhi Member Posts: 107 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    Actually, that sounds like an acceptable solution. It still punishes people who have a bad connection, but in a matter that is acceptable.

    The solution for people with a bad connection already exists in game. I'm just reminding you that it exists. It really isn't punishment.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Aytanhi of TSI, TSI fleet founder and leader OrganizedPVP channel Admin
    Feel free to ask me about PVP or starship strategies. "No, I am not Borg!"
    /channel_join OrganizedPVP If you are interested in learning PVP, looking for a team, or a private match
  • mikewendellmikewendell Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    aytanhi wrote: »
    The solution for people with a bad connection already exists in game. I'm just reminding you that it exists. It really isn't punishment.

    I;m iffy that it works right. I get the hour stf penalty every once in awhile when my connection drops.

    Going back to network again. Wanderingwifi doesn;t really drop. DNS fails (Although why it;s not caching locally, i don;t have a clue) and I'm stuck here watching the the browser thingie do nothing spin but spin for anywhere between 30 seconds and 5 minutes.

    I usually get the penalty if that happens.
  • husanakxhusanakx Member Posts: 1,674 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    All they have to do is add a log off timer.... they are annoying but ya. Every other MMO has em... 10 seconds would be nice... but I have played MMOs with 30s log out timers. In those games if you exit the game or get disconnected your avatar will stand there looking dumb for the duration of the timer.

    If this is something that happens to you a lot due to bad connection you should likely consider switching your ISP.
  • emoejoeemoejoe Member Posts: 229 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    husanakx wrote: »
    All they have to do is add a log off timer.... they are annoying but ya. Every other MMO has em... 10 seconds would be nice... but I have played MMOs with 30s log out timers. In those games if you exit the game or get disconnected your avatar will stand there looking dumb for the duration of the timer.

    If this is something that happens to you a lot due to bad connection you should likely consider switching your ISP.

    comcast has a monopoly where i live!

    but i deal with 3-5 dcs a game session. id take a death every time if it meant no one could loggoffski
  • mikewendellmikewendell Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    Hmmm, I could have sworn I had a post in this thread....

    I even remember it because I mentioned seeing afk'ers in fleet events and wondering why they're doing it because the marks are only turned in back to Cryptic. They I realized that maybe the farmers are going to build ready made starbases....

    Found it:

    http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=328071
  • sonicshowersonicshower Member Posts: 216 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    when my connection sucks i dont pvp
    sh2sxc7.gif
  • bawj4wsbawj4ws Member Posts: 102 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    aytanhi wrote: »
    First thread got deleted, posting a second thread with updated footage from today.

    Videos showing the exploits in the game from the day I started to record them.

    These exploits have existed since season 1, and has received no attention at all from the devs.

    Please edit the thread if you must moderators, but please do not delete it until a developer responds with a solution.

    Log-off Exploiter

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ex5WtMTJkmo[....]

    Aha yes I've met this little scrub a few times in cap n holds. Same guy as soon as he's attacked he disconnects.

    Bad sportsmanship indeed :mad:
    Dork - I.K.S. WeeBugger
  • aquitaine985aquitaine985 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    What happened to the orginal thread like this?
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  • rooster75rooster75 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    What happened to the orginal thread like this?

    It's still around. He's got two of these threads active right now.
  • borticuscrypticborticuscryptic Member Posts: 2,478 Cryptic Developer
    edited July 2012
    Technically, logging out can't really be considered an exploit. The user isn't getting ahead by doing it, they're only avoiding death which already has no consequences. Their time spent would be almost identical if they blew up and respawned. I suppose they may be allowing the rest of their team to come closer to winning a match, by not giving the enemy a kill point? But again, very little benefit there under the current system.

    That said, I personally agree that there should be a "linger" put in place for queue'd maps, whereby if you disconnect your character remains in-game for a short amount of time. I'm honestly not certain it can be done, but I'll check with our Software guys about it.

    As for AFK'ers... not a whole lot that can be done there, I'm afraid. You'll get people trying to cheat the system in any MMO. Other than removing the few existing rewards from PvP matches (which we don't want to do), I think a "Vote To Kick" option is the best potential solution to this, but such a system could be easily used for griefing other players, so it presents its own challenges.
    Jeremy Randall
    Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
    "Play smart!"
  • creamyzombiecreamyzombie Member Posts: 148 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    I think a "Vote To Kick" option is the best potential solution to this, but such a system could be easily used for griefing other players, so it presents its own challenges.

    Agreed, though how hard would it be to have the queue system try and not queue us with players we've ignored? If you find and AFKer, put on ignore and less chance of seeing them again.

    There could be a little grief here, though more by exclusion than anything else.
  • mavairomavairo Member Posts: 579
    edited July 2012
    Technically, logging out can't really be considered an exploit. The user isn't getting ahead by doing it, they're only avoiding death which already has no consequences. Their time spent would be almost identical if they blew up and respawned. I suppose they may be allowing the rest of their team to come closer to winning a match, by not giving the enemy a kill point? But again, very little benefit there under the current system.

    That said, I personally agree that there should be a "linger" put in place for queue'd maps, whereby if you disconnect your character remains in-game for a short amount of time. I'm honestly not certain it can be done, but I'll check with our Software guys about it.

    As for AFK'ers... not a whole lot that can be done there, I'm afraid. You'll get people trying to cheat the system in any MMO. Other than removing the few existing rewards from PvP matches (which we don't want to do), I think a "Vote To Kick" option is the best potential solution to this, but such a system could be easily used for griefing other players, so it presents its own challenges.

    No offense Jman but loggers have several impacts on the game. As do Warpers. In the case of the former, loggers can force a team to waste their best bridge officer abilities, (either on the offense side by wasting offensive buffs and debuffs, or on the logger side, by wasting their best heals which do not reset themselves once the logger poofs. Stuff like Hazards, Extend Shields and Transfer Shield strength) it can TRIBBLE a team heinously one way or another.

    Usually though,it screws the attackers most, because right now healing and resists out pace damage in sto. Passive resists are much higher on average than passive damage is.

    Warpers, leave everyone left holding the bag and ruins the match. Easy solution, disable the warp out button during a pvp match. I can't just zone out of RIFT, without dcing or getting marked AFK, there's no reason we should not have that here.


    An easy possible solution for this, and it's one RIFT does is put a linger command in, as well as a Leaver Penalty, where they are kicked from the ques for 30 minutes. You guys already do this in STFs. You could also disable Logouts in pvp, which is something again, RIFT does.

    As for AFKers, put a Mark as AFK option in sto. Like what RIFT has. where it auto kicks you if you do not do anything in a given match. Adding a Vote To Kick option would also be tremendously helpful have it so Vote to kick only comes up when the person is already marked for AFK. That's exactly how RIFT does it. Something else you can do, to steal yet again from RIFT is to have greatly increased rewards for Winners, and be only able to receive quest completion for Victory. If people can't get the same rewards for losing as they do winning, people will be forced to either try, or leave the ques. It's a much more difficult thing to rig, and abuse than what sto has.

    The latter especially is a quick and easy step.

    The goal for pvp is to have full participation and honest effort on both teams, making sure the incentives for winning are much greater than they are for losing is easily hands down the best method for doing so. Even if you couldn't do a Mark As AFK and Vote To Kick, just this method on it's own merit would tremendously alleviate the AFKer problem.

    If you guys are serious about wanting to launch in Asia, these are things you are going to have to address anyway, isn't this abit more important from a Future Business standpoint than the signage on Admiral Quinn's Office?
  • borticuscrypticborticuscryptic Member Posts: 2,478 Cryptic Developer
    edited July 2012
    Rewarding only winners is unlikely to be an immediate course of action. The gap between what you folks on this forum call an "honest effort," and what the average player can achieve, is a monstrous one. Very few people fine anything fun about doing their best and losing, and feeling like they've wasted their time. The type of player that is motivated by failure is not commonly seen in a casual-friendly F2P game.

    I'll think about some of the other ideas though. "Mark as AFK" is a particularly interesting one. But again, I'll have to check with our Software guys to see if it's even possible.
    Jeremy Randall
    Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
    "Play smart!"
  • mavairomavairo Member Posts: 579
    edited July 2012
    Rewarding only winners is unlikely to be an immediate course of action. The gap between what you folks on this forum call an "honest effort," and what the average player can achieve, is a monstrous one. Very few people fine anything fun about doing their best and losing, and feeling like they've wasted their time. The type of player that is motivated by failure is not commonly seen in a casual-friendly F2P game.

    I'll think about some of the other ideas though. "Mark as AFK" is a particularly interesting one. But again, I'll have to check with our Software guys to see if it's even possible.

    I'm not saying winners get -all- of the rewards but that they get rewarded more highly for their efforts. Maybe losers get a pittance of dilithium, but winners get more dilith, and EC. Or the same dilith with fleet marks (throwing the latter out as an example here).

    People in this game I think have a stomach for little changes in their gameplay experience. We don't want people just quing up for their daily dilith fix (which pvp ironically enough is the thing that pays out the least for anyway) and not trying, or doing things like charging in with their shields off after they get blown up the first time. We want people to try. We aren't asking for them to become, Aytanhis, Eras, Zorenas, MTs, or hell even me. But we do want to at least see some kind of effort, and reward for them to get better.

    The gap isn't really that monstrous, it's that people are that lazy. Half the time we can't even get people to balance their own shields, and healers are starting to throw tac teams onto pugs before they heal them otherwise. To use myself as an example when I Pug anymore on my healer, I put on 3 conn officers, and change out my ET3 for ASIF2, because I know that on average, the average pug player is not going to even balance their own shields or at least use tac team. So ET3 would be a total waste, and it would put my TT on CD.. and I use the doffs so that I effectively have 2 TTs to throw.

    the guys that feel they are wasting their time by quing for pvp, already feel that way because we exist. And even when we back it down a few notches we can still roll them over. What they need is more incentive to learn the Trade, that is pvp. If they wound up winning a match or two, and noticed they got twice the dilithium (lets say losing gives you 250 dilith, winning gives you 500 per match, then after 3 victorys you can do the Turn In) and maybe 3 times the EC that they did by losing (for example) they'd probably sit up and take notice.
  • meurikmeurik Member Posts: 856 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    Agreed, though how hard would it be to have the queue system try and not queue us with players we've ignored? If you find and AFKer, put on ignore and less chance of seeing them again.

    There could be a little grief here, though more by exclusion than anything else.

    This suggestion I wholeheartedly agree with. If I add a person to ignore, there's usually a very good reason for that... And don't tell me the tech doesn't exist, cause I KNOW BETTER. Other games can solve this issue, why not yours? Bad coding? Lazy programmers? Faulty priorities?
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  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    Truely AFK people could probably identified automatically by simply noticing that they didn't activate any abilities. But I suspect some player interaction will be required, for example a Vote-To-Kick system. Sure, there is abusal potential, but is it really worse than the abusal potential of AFK?

    If the "voted" player does something to indicate activity (say, gets into range of allies and enemies and uses his weapons and powers), the votes could be reset, for example.
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  • bluegeekbluegeek Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    Speaking as someone who does not PvP for various reasons...

    I agree that rewards for "showing up" as an incentive to PvP are needful, or only the "experts" will ever want to PvP.

    I also agree that the winners should probably get a bigger reward. It doesn't even need to be a lot bigger, but noticeable. If I were on the winning side, I know I'd feel cheated if the losers got the same reward I did without even trying.

    I also agree that there should be some way of penalizing players that sit there and do nothing, allowing their team to carry their share of the burden and collecting rewards for doing nothing.

    I agree that a Vote to Kick is a good idea. I do not believe that anyone who is kicked should be subject to a leaver penalty, since it was involuntary.

    I believe that AFK status should diminish PvP rewards proportionally to the time spent AFK.

    I disagree that players should be prevented from leaving the match.

    I agree that there should be a penalty associated with leaving, be it 'lingering' or 'lockout' or both. But recognizing that sometimes people get disconnected through no fault of their own, these penalties shouldn't be too harsh. And players who do get disconnected need to realize that the penalty is there for a good reason and not take it personally when they can't re-queue for a little while.

    I agree that there is no sense in allowing players to be able to queue up into the same match with other players who have marked them to be ignored. This is a more than reasonable request.
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  • radkipradkip Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    That said, I personally agree that there should be a "linger" put in place for queue'd maps, whereby if you disconnect your character remains in-game for a short amount of time. I'm honestly not certain it can be done, but I'll check with our Software guys about it.
    In addition to that linger option, can you disable logging out if you're in combat? I'm so sick of people logging out when they see my buffs going up after I've locked them down with a control ability, then logging back in and killing me when my buffs are down.
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  • aquitaine985aquitaine985 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    Agreed, though how hard would it be to have the queue system try and not queue us with players we've ignored? If you find and AFKer, put on ignore and less chance of seeing them again.

    There could be a little grief here, though more by exclusion than anything else.

    I cant see that working, it's not quite as easy to abuse but it wouldn't take a genius to abuse that option. But in a community so small, we can't afford to /ignore people for AFKing. And whats the difference between me /ignoring an AFKer and some **** that annoys me?
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    2010: This is Cryptic PvP. Please hold the line, your call is very important to us...
  • dant158#3249 dant158 Member Posts: 11 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    Rewarding only winners is unlikely to be an immediate course of action. The gap between what you folks on this forum call an "honest effort," and what the average player can achieve, is a monstrous one. Very few people fine anything fun about doing their best and losing, and feeling like they've wasted their time. The type of player that is motivated by failure is not commonly seen in a casual-friendly F2P game.

    I don't think anybody wants only the winners to be rewarded, but they should certainly get more reward than the losers... After all, they won.
    I think 1.5 or 2x the baseline reward for the winning team would be a fair start. With some sort of tech coming later that would be better able to reward based on actual effort (ie good player on a sucky team gets more reward than sucky player on sucky team)
    Oh, and fleet marks should be that reward!
  • aquitaine985aquitaine985 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    dantrainor wrote: »
    Oh, and fleet marks should be that reward!

    YES!

    /10char
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    @Aquitaine985
    Lag Industries STO PvP Fleet - Executive
    A Sad Panda of Industrial calibre.
    2010: This is Cryptic PvP. Please hold the line, your call is very important to us...
  • p2wsucksp2wsucks Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    I'm against Vote kick for the abuse possibilities.

    I would like to see people who are reported for abusing game play (ie afker in a public queue) to actually be banned for a period of time from public queuing. I just don't think the GMs follow up on these reports or don't have the ability to follow up or don't have the authority to ban investigated afkers.

    AFKer aside from putting a team down, throughs off the game's economy. Since it's easy to bot something like joining queues. They also get rewarded.

    A player solution would be to use private queues or if in public queues have all but the afker(s) leave the match. Though this gets into another issue where people who are losing can just leave the Arena match and noone gets an award.

    The logoff abuse is an issue in Arena. It can take away a kill needed to win a match.

    Still, there's been issues near the Boston area where I've had times where I'd be dropped from Cryptic consistently (after awhile I stopped public queuing just so not to get on others nerves w/my DCs). It wasn't my ISP, and may have had to do w/the IPv6 implementation in the area.

    Personally I favor giving GMs the ability and authority to investigate AFKers and have escalating bans for multiple offenses over time. I agree linger option for logoffs would be a good option for people looking to dodge being killed.
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