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Only forward DPS is PvP DPS?

sophlogimosophlogimo Member Posts: 6,507 Arc User
edited July 2012 in PvP Gameplay
Looking at the numbers and having tried stuff out for quite a while, I have a feeling that all ships and endgame gears in STO seem to be balanced for forward DPS, and if you use anything but fordward-dps-oriented builds, you do insufficient damage.

So, turrets are only good for being the only aft weapons that can provide some additional forward DPS. Beam Arrays are bogus. Single Cannons are close to doing enough, but not quite, unless buffed heavily with tac powers, of course. Dual Beam Banks and Dual Cannons, however, do just the damage you need to destroy targets.

It seems to me that if you want to destroy stuff with DPS, you absolutely need forward DPS weapons with a firing arc of 90 degrees or less, plus support fire from aft turrets - a cruiser's broadside will be insufficient.

Is that correct?
Post edited by Unknown User on

Comments

  • obertheromulanobertheromulan Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    Well Escorts deal the most damage and Escorts are best used with forward facing weapons. Doesn't mean it's the only way, and every ship will do damage like that.

    Cruisers can deal damage with a broadsides, not quite as much since there has to be a drawback for their near indestructabilty.
    Try putting narrow arc weapons on a cruiser and you will most likely never get a shot off unless you have a lot of crowd control or a stupid enemy.

    So no forward facing certainly isn't the only way to go for DPS.
    If that's even what you're asking.
    Or are you asking if you should put narrow arc weapons on your carrier?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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  • thishorizonthishorizon Member Posts: 1,158
    edited July 2012
    front 45/90 on an escort with dhc or dbb

    broadside is still the best damage on a cruiser.

    to use anything but beam arrays on many ships is silly.

    if you put dbb's on a carrier or cruiser you are most likely doing it wrong.


    that being said. everything works in the PVE missions.
  • mavairomavairo Member Posts: 579
    edited July 2012
    I've had some utterly devastating broadside Excelsiors as a tac.

    Assault cruiser pumps abit less but it is tankier.

    Broadside DPS is good for keeping people on average though on their toes.

    I do feel the need to qualify the former statement. The Excelsi is capable of such hienously good short term broadsides for 2 reasons, 1 it has great tac slots for a fed cruiser.

    2: BO3 is kind of Sexy on a DBB. You line up your shot every so often on a DBB (if you are a tac) and le'r fly.

    3: Faw + DEM + Tac Buffs = Holy !!!!!!

    4: Recons (and to a lesser extent any sci ship including carriers) for tacs pump Burst Damage through their tac buffable science skills, like tractor beam repulsors, Shockwave 3, Grav well, in addition (in the recon's case certainly) being capable of mounting Overloads without losing their ability to shield tank. Ask anyone that' shad to deal with my Recon what it's like and the responses will vary from Utterly Frustrating, to HTF Does He Do That Much Damage? It's because I took the time to go through each of the sci skills, and fit them to my sci ship, as best as I could manage while keeping a couple others on standby to change out on a given situation. (Ie fighting more escorts? I ditch my GW for a VM or FBP2 boff)

    DPS for tacs is all about cramming it all in in as short of a time as physically possible. This is Burst Damage, something as simple as front stacking your damage with FAW cycles after an Overload shot (chased by a weapon battery) can put tremendous pressure on a target. That being said you have to have a ship capable of bringing your Guns to bear, and power them. This means a ship with 3 tac consoles, and a Lt Cmdr Tac ideally.

    (The Vorcha can get away with this due to it's very high turn rate and ability to mount DHCs. Which front load the damage very quickly, and then dump warp plasma to keep target defense low as you grind them under heel with heavy cannon fire. Or conversely, you dump DC fire with DEM cranking which is much harder to defend against on an individual level. I use warp plasma on mine, not for my first target.. but for my 2nd and 3rds. Whoever in short gets Stuck in the plas, is next up on the Death List. Especially in Team Play. And I'm not talking random 5v5s but at least semi cooridinated, Talent. The new Vorcha is just going to be ridiculous)
  • fakehilbertfakehilbert Member Posts: 252 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    It seems to me that if you want to destroy stuff with DPS, you absolutely need forward DPS weapons with a firing arc of 90 degrees or less, plus support fire from aft turrets - a cruiser's broadside will be insufficient.

    Is that correct?
    No.

    Once you get away from 1v1s, pressure dps becomes useful, and this can be done with broadsiding beam arrays.
  • thisslerthissler Member Posts: 2,055 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    First suggestion, stop saying DPS. It really does more harm then good. DPS is simply a convention that was agreed upon that allowed for some sort of comparison between otherwise different abilities. It is an extremely weak tool. Burst damage is an excellent tool to use in this game.

    Burst damage would be damage that is near instant in application as in Beam Overload, or over the course of seconds, as in Cannon Rapid Fire. Burst damage would NOT be the damage caused by Gravity Well. Or by Tractor Beam. Although both can be very damaging, that type of damage is better left in the damage over time category as it helps in overall understanding of Burst damage vs every other type of damage.

    Whenever you strive to destroy an opponent you can assume one of two things will happen. You will succeed or you will fail. If you succeed you are done doing damage. You can imagine what that does for your DPS. But you succeeded! If you fail your opponent will start to answer that damage by healing it. You will likely suffer a drop in DPS, but not quite as bad as you are still shooting away. Just all your damage is being answered by healing. Your damage done will go up, your DPS will go up, your stats may look all pro, but you may never ever score a kill.

    So how do we land damage on our opponents hull that they cannot answer? Really that's the question you are actually trying to find a solution to each time you enter combat.

    The tactical answer is to overpower our opponents defenses with so much damage in such a short amount of time that it isn't possible inside of game mechanics to answer effectively.

    The science answer is to subvert our opponents defenses with so many different attacks upon them that they once again become unable to mount an effective answer to the incoming damage.

    The engineering answer is to win by attrition. You will do ten damage. They will heal nine. You will win.

    Tactical NEEDS a huge amount of burst damage to succeed as it is all they are using. Science and engineering ships are using other abilities that over time compound the pressure on the opponent to the point where the smaller burst capabilities of the science or engineering ships become sufficient to end the engagement.

    So stop thinking dps for pvp. The question is are you able to use your abilities to position your opponent so that he is vulnerable to the burst potential of your ship? If so great. And that holds true if you are teamed. If you accomplish that you win, if not oh well.
  • husanakxhusanakx Member Posts: 1,674 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    I think you may be finally realizing why so many people thought your initial carrier builds where not much good.

    Forward arc is the best way to apply dmg Yes. Carriers and most cruisers can't turn fast enough to use a front arc that well. This is why most people build carriers with 360 degree sci powers instead of 90 degree arc skills... and also why people don't rely on low arc weapons on those ships. Its also why most cruisers and carriers run beams and go for the broadside... as it gives them a large arc window of on target weapon time. Having just a few weapons going at a time as what happens when you load low arc weapons on a low turn ship... is not good for dps numbers, that's not rocket science. The longer you fire at someone with more weapons = higher dps.

    The highest Spike dmg energy weapons are Dual Cannons, the heavy variety being the best option. They are exclusive to escorts... and a handful of cruisers. Most of the cruisers don't have higher end tac powers and can't turn them into good spike weapons however.

    In truth Rapid Fire is NOT a spike ability... it is a Damage over time ability... having said that fully buffed a high version rapid fire with tactical buffs or proper debuff support and better yet both will provide a strong sustained spike that will be enough to finish most targets that are not supported properly.

    I know it may come as a shock Soph and we have been trying to tell you this for a few months now I think... some ships in this game are geared more to do Pressure dmg... and some are geared more to do Spike dmg. I get that you don't like to go with the flow and that can be good if you take what you learn and come up with something honesty useful... however in general running a support class ship with no way to provide pressure dmg... makes it a waste of a team slot, as trying to do spike in it is going to fail... and you will be giving up the real advantages of the ship. On the other hand taking a ship that CAN be doing lots of spike like an escort and loading it to do pressure dmg can also be a waste, as those ships will provide higher pressure for sure... at the expense of a lot of survivability, dead ships are providing no pressure.

    In the end its best to take a ship understand what its role on the battle field is... build it to accomplish its design parameters, and then tweak it from there. Not many of my ships are running traditional builds... however I don't try to reinvent the wheel either. In general they do more or less what that class of ship is designed to do.
  • dank65dank65 Member Posts: 44 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    thissler wrote: »
    First suggestion, stop saying DPS. It really does more harm then good. DPS is simply a convention that was agreed upon that allowed for some sort of comparison between otherwise different abilities. It is an extremely weak tool. Burst damage is an excellent tool to use in this game.

    Burst damage would be damage that is near instant in application as in Beam Overload, or over the course of seconds, as in Cannon Rapid Fire. Burst damage would NOT be the damage caused by Gravity Well. Or by Tractor Beam. Although both can be very damaging, that type of damage is better left in the damage over time category as it helps in overall understanding of Burst damage vs every other type of damage.

    Whenever you strive to destroy an opponent you can assume one of two things will happen. You will succeed or you will fail. If you succeed you are done doing damage. You can imagine what that does for your DPS. But you succeeded! If you fail your opponent will start to answer that damage by healing it. You will likely suffer a drop in DPS, but not quite as bad as you are still shooting away. Just all your damage is being answered by healing. Your damage done will go up, your DPS will go up, your stats may look all pro, but you may never ever score a kill.

    So how do we land damage on our opponents hull that they cannot answer? Really that's the question you are actually trying to find a solution to each time you enter combat.

    The tactical answer is to overpower our opponents defenses with so much damage in such a short amount of time that it isn't possible inside of game mechanics to answer effectively.

    The science answer is to subvert our opponents defenses with so many different attacks upon them that they once again become unable to mount an effective answer to the incoming damage.

    The engineering answer is to win by attrition. You will do ten damage. They will heal nine. You will win.

    Tactical NEEDS a huge amount of burst damage to succeed as it is all they are using. Science and engineering ships are using other abilities that over time compound the pressure on the opponent to the point where the smaller burst capabilities of the science or engineering ships become sufficient to end the engagement.

    So stop thinking dps for pvp. The question is are you able to use your abilities to position your opponent so that he is vulnerable to the burst potential of your ship? If so great. And that holds true if you are teamed. If you accomplish that you win, if not oh well.

    A+

    One of the best burst\DoT posts Ive seen

    This should be stickied and not on the PvP forums but in the Free to Play Q&A section as
    it would explain in the simpliests terms how to set up a ship.
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  • thisslerthissler Member Posts: 2,055 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    I had a tough time with Cannon Rapid Fire. Where to put? First why didn't I choose damage over time? Because all damage is damage over time. Even if that time is only one application it is still "over time". So its not all that descriptive. Many games consider damage over time effects as opposed to "the same damage effect just more of it". Also as being discrete from "normal" attacks.

    So it isn't a distinct damage type, like Gravity Well, or an added effect, like plasma burn. But it is measurable in duration and strength. Its duration is very brief and its strength is very strong. So unlike Beam Overload your opponent does have a brief window to answer the damage, but unlike other types of damage it can't safely be ignored even when it is the only incoming damage.

    So there are a variety of other tactical buffs that will increase damage output. But most not as fiercely as CRF will. Some of them last much longer. So due to its short duration and high strength vs anything else but Beam Overload its probably best for understanding the overall concept labeling it as burst.
  • marctraiderzmarctraiderz Member Posts: 539 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    Looking at the numbers and having tried stuff out for quite a while, I have a feeling that all ships and endgame gears in STO seem to be balanced for forward DPS, and if you use anything but fordward-dps-oriented builds, you do insufficient damage.

    So, turrets are only good for being the only aft weapons that can provide some additional forward DPS. Beam Arrays are bogus. Single Cannons are close to doing enough, but not quite, unless buffed heavily with tac powers, of course. Dual Beam Banks and Dual Cannons, however, do just the damage you need to destroy targets.

    It seems to me that if you want to destroy stuff with DPS, you absolutely need forward DPS weapons with a firing arc of 90 degrees or less, plus support fire from aft turrets - a cruiser's broadside will be insufficient.

    Is that correct?

    For your title question, yes, the most PVP dps comes from frontal weaponary. Why? because ....

    But you are being eluded by the pvp damage charts. The reason why people that use maxed frontal damage is because they have way more chance to blow away that shield facing and hit the hull and take those points off the hull really fast, most efficient way to kill someone right or make good damage numbers on the board?

    Cruisers that broadside also do nice dmg, even tacticals can do nice damage, but it will never be equal to good CANNONS!

    Oh and um, what are you bringing into the team, a damage per second cruiser or a spike escort? :p

    I will take my dedicated auxiliary spike healer!
  • shimmerlessshimmerless Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    mavairo wrote: »
    3: Faw + DEM + Tac Buffs = Holy !!!!!!

    I noticed this a few weeks ago when I was still milling about in an Excel. I don't know if DEM got stealth-buffed or what but the bleed it puts out is absolutely sick.
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  • bitemepwebitemepwe Member Posts: 6,760 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    Only forward DPS is PvP DPS

    THATS what I've been doing wrong!!!!

    < note to self: Stop flying backwards towards target>
    Leonard Nimoy, Spock.....:(

    R.I.P
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