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Fleet Reconnaissance Science Vessel has everything (wow)

sdkraustsdkraust Member Posts: 524 Arc User
edited August 2012 in Federation Discussion
Very OP IMO.

1.43 Shied Modifier (Highest Shield Modifier I think)
13 Base Turn (Escort Worthy)
2 Tac Slots (For two Tac Teams)
4 Tac Consoles + 4 Sci Consoles (Firepower + Field Gens)
All of the benefits of being a sci vessel (AKA a tank)

Only has 29700 Shields but that's OK when you're thinking that other ships of that amount of hull have < 1.0 Shield Modifier
Post edited by sdkraust on

Comments

  • shimmerlessshimmerless Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    The four Tac consoles on a ship with Sensor Analysis is very silly.
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  • captainbaldycaptainbaldy Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    oh wah wah QQ OP meh meh

    Every time a new ship comes out we hear the same ol' song and dance
  • intrinsicalintrinsical Member Posts: 208 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    Don't forget it has 3 forward and 3 aft weapon slots!
  • ussultimatumussultimatum Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    The four Tac consoles on a ship with Sensor Analysis is very silly.


    1) This already exists for the KDF with the Operations Bortas, a massive battle cruiser with 8x weapon slots.

    2) This is still a Sci Ship with 3/3 Weapons.

    3) This is still a Sci ship limited to at best, single cannons, DBBs or Beam arrays.
  • toivatoiva Member Posts: 3,276 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    It's a nice science ship I'd like to have.

    Still, it can't do the same damage as an escort and can't tank as well as a cruiser.
    No dual (heavy) cannons are a limitation, as well as only 3/3 weapon slots. You can compensate with sci abilities, but that needs switching power to auxiliary...
    Shields will be nice indeed, but for tanking purposes, the hull is fragile (the bleedthrough is noticable) and only 2 eng boff slots are also a limitation.

    It might be the most useful science ship available, but I wouldn't worry (yet). What could be a problem on this ship would be a Lt. Comm. tac boff instead of Lt. and Ens. But that one is used only on the Fleet Nova with 3 tac console slots.
    TOIVA, Toi Vaxx, Toia Vix, Toveg, T'vritha, To Vrax: Bring in the Allegiance class.
    Toi'Va, Ti'vath, Toivia, Ty'Vris, Tia Vex, Toi'Virth: Add Tier 6 KDF Carrier and Raider.
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  • ussultimatumussultimatum Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    toiva wrote: »
    It's a nice science ship I'd like to have.

    Still, it can't do the same damage as an escort and can't tank as well as a cruiser.
    No dual (heavy) cannons are a limitation, as well as only 3/3 weapon slots. You can compensate with sci abilities, but that needs switching power to auxiliary...
    Shields will be nice indeed, but for tanking purposes, the hull is fragile (the bleedthrough is noticable) and only 2 eng boff slots are also a limitation.

    It might be the most useful science ship available, but I wouldn't worry (yet). What could be a problem on this ship would be a Lt. Comm. tac boff instead of Lt. and Ens. But that one is used only on the Fleet Nova with 3 tac console slots.



    My personal opinion is that the shield mods for fleet sci ships are just right.

    Being so high, allows a Sci ship to completely focus on sci consoles to improve sci abilities instead of really being forced between Field Gens or Effective Sci powers.

    You can still slot field gens, but like you said they still have relatively low hull and low raw DPS compared to an escort.
  • raptor63549raptor63549 Member Posts: 642 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    Raise your hand if you actually fly Science vessels regularly.


    Yes, the shield modifier is high, but if the shields do drop, the ship bqsically evaporates. It has the highest shield modifier, but the hull is among the weakest for fleet ships, so it balances out.

    Yes the fourth tac console brings a nice damage boost, but bear in mind, all science vessel still only have 6 weapons (only 3 of which are forward slots), which limits the weapon based damage, and thus that which can be affected by the tactical consoles. Sensor analysis can make up for some of this loss of effectiveness, but it takes time to stack. The number of weapons is more important than the number of tac cnsoles in this case.

    As for the turn rate, you cannot fit dual cannons, so the smallest arc you have to worry about is 45 degrees. This isn't much of a problem for slower science vessels. The extra turn rate is nice, but hardly game changing.

    It has 4 science consoles (the same as all other tier 5 science vessels save the fleet DSSV with 5), but stacking them with all field gens is usually a bad idea. Much of the effectiveness of a science vessel is tied to its science abilites, and maximizing damage on one means you need particle generators boosting damage abilites. Fitting a quartet of field generators is actually not one of the best things you can do.
  • mehenmehen Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    Awww, someone thinks science vessels are OP. How cute. :P

    Really, though, only the nebula can tank like cruisers, thanks to the universal lieutenant station; otherwise, the shield modifier is there to help counter the low engineering capacity and hull strength. Until the top-tier science vessels innately get target subsystem II or III powers, and other science skills are actually buffed instead of nerfed, though, you can't honestly call any science ship OP. Good at their role, yes...but not OP. You won't be tanking like a cruiser while throwing out escort-like dps.
  • annemarie30annemarie30 Member Posts: 2,745 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    If any sci ship is ridiculous the Fleet Science Ship Retro is


    Lt Commander - Tac
    Lieutenant - Eng
    Commander - Sci
    Lieutenant - Sci
    Ensign - Sci

    Engineering: 2
    Tactical: 3
    Science: 4

    Weapons
    Fore: 3
    Aft: 3

    Turn: 14
    Hull: 27390
    Crew: 100
    Device Slots: 3
    Shield Mod: 1.11

    three consoles and Lcdr slot.
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  • basedelta0basedelta0 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    For the sake of perspective, ive editted the ops list to inlcude only difference between the Fleet and standard Recon that has been available since launch.
    sdkraust wrote: »
    +0.13 Shield Mod
    +1 Tac Console
    +10% Hull HP
  • toivatoiva Member Posts: 3,276 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    Raise your hand if you actually fly Science vessels regularly.


    Yes, the shield modifier is high, but if the shields do drop, the ship bqsically evaporates. It has the highest shield modifier, but the hull is among the weakest for fleet ships, so it balances out.

    Yes the fourth tac console brings a nice damage boost, but bear in mind, all science vessel still only have 6 weapons (only 3 of which are forward slots), which limits the weapon based damage, and thus that which can be affected by the tactical consoles. Sensor analysis can make up for some of this loss of effectiveness, but it takes time to stack. The number of weapons is more important than the number of tac cnsoles in this case.

    As for the turn rate, you cannot fit dual cannons, so the smallest arc you have to worry about is 45 degrees. This isn't much of a problem for slower science vessels. The extra turn rate is nice, but hardly game changing.

    It has 4 science consoles (the same as all other tier 5 science vessels save the fleet DSSV with 5), but stacking them with all field gens is usually a bad idea. Much of the effectiveness of a science vessel is tied to its science abilites, and maximizing damage on one means you need particle generators boosting damage abilites. Fitting a quartet of field generators is actually not one of the best things you can do.

    "raises hand" I got an Intrepid retrofit and it's much more fun flying it than the cruisers I used before. And yes, whenever I get a little distracted and let a shield facing weaken, I'm basically dead. And one shield facing can easily weaken whether you use Field generators or not.

    Oh, and the fore weapon arc someone in a sci ship is interested about is 90 degrees (dual beam bank and torpedoes), 45 is for dual (heavy) cannons (unless you meant 45 degrees left and right).
    If any sci ship is ridiculous the Fleet Science Ship Retro is


    Lt Commander - Tac
    Lieutenant - Eng
    Commander - Sci
    Lieutenant - Sci
    Ensign - Sci

    Engineering: 2
    Tactical: 3
    Science: 4

    Weapons
    Fore: 3
    Aft: 3

    Turn: 14
    Hull: 27390
    Crew: 100
    Device Slots: 3
    Shield Mod: 1.11

    three consoles and Lcdr slot.
    Well, I don't think a Tac Lt. Comm. is dangerous with 3 tac consoles. As I wrote earlier, if it were 4 tac consoles instead, then I might start to worry.

    Also notice the shield modifier. While it's a fleet ship, 1,11 is lower than any other sci vessel (not counting the retrofits with lowered stats, I think those are even worse).

    Given the turn rate, this Nova might behave like a (noticeably) underpowered escort with better shields and access to the best sci abilities.
    TOIVA, Toi Vaxx, Toia Vix, Toveg, T'vritha, To Vrax: Bring in the Allegiance class.
    Toi'Va, Ti'vath, Toivia, Ty'Vris, Tia Vex, Toi'Virth: Add Tier 6 KDF Carrier and Raider.
    Tae'Va, T'Vaya, To'Var, Tevra, T'Vira, To'Vrak: Give us Asylums for Romulans.

    Don't make ARC mandatory! Keep it optional only!
  • shaanithegreenshaanithegreen Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    I used to fly science ships all the time, but I haven't in forever.

    Are any of the BOFF powers still any good?
  • raptor63549raptor63549 Member Posts: 642 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    If any sci ship is ridiculous the Fleet Science Ship Retro is


    Lt Commander - Tac
    Lieutenant - Eng
    Commander - Sci
    Lieutenant - Sci
    Ensign - Sci

    Engineering: 2
    Tactical: 3
    Science: 4

    Weapons
    Fore: 3
    Aft: 3

    Turn: 14
    Hull: 27390
    Crew: 100
    Device Slots: 3
    Shield Mod: 1.11

    three consoles and Lcdr slot.
    How is that a problem?
    MVAM has LtC Science so it can use best science abilities. 3 Science consoles.
    HEC has LtC Engi so it can tank pretty well for an escort. 3 Engi Consoles
    Excelsior gets and the Oddy can have an LtC Tac to maximize damage (I should note they have 3 weapons consoles as well, but get 8 weapons).
    The Odyssey can be setup with a LtC science for the best science abilities. 3 science consoles on the Tac and Ops variants, 4 on the science variant.
    Nebula and D'Kyr get a LtC engi slot which makes them fairly tanky if set up properly. 3 engi consoles.

    Why would the science ship with a LtC tac not have 3 tac consoles? Be aware it has less shields than any other science vessel save the non-fleet retrofit version and its hull is in the range of the non-fleet luna. Fleet ships are supposed to be better, but the most squishy non-fleet science vessel takes more to kill than this ship would.

    Also, once again, with only 6 weapons, it can't leverage those tac abilities as much as other ships. Also, because of the decreased weapon count, science vessels really need to utilize science abilities to deal some of the damage, while most of those abilities are available at Lt, having level 2 of them makes a huge difference, so it's the high level science slots that you are hitting with, and you give one of those slots up for the single high level tac slot. (high level in the case being the LtC and Cmdr ability spots)
    toiva wrote: »
    Oh, and the fore weapon arc someone in a sci ship is interested about is 90 degrees (dual beam bank and torpedoes), 45 is for dual (heavy) cannons (unless you meant 45 degrees left and right).

    You're right, that was a mistype on my part, thanks for catching it.
  • ussultimatumussultimatum Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    Also, once again, with only 6 weapons, it can't leverage those tac abilities as much as other ships. Also, because of the decreased weapon count, science vessels really need to utilize science abilities to deal some of the damage, while most of those abilities are available at Lt, having level 2 of them makes a huge difference, so it's the high level science slots that you are hitting with, and you give one of those slots up for the single high level tac slot. (high level in the case being the LtC and Cmdr ability spots)

    I agree.

    The problem is most people see 1 extra Tac console and suddenly think a ship is overpowered.

    It's one of those seriously delusional ideas that gets propagated, because people see "+26% damage to X" and think that it is actually a +26% damage increase.

    Which is incorrect.


    To anyone who is capable of focusing on one thing for at least 3 full minutes:

    1) Unequip all tac energy damage consoles.
    2) Go into space, mouse hover over 1 weapon.
    3) Slot one tac console.
    4) Repeat step 2, one console at a time.
  • darthvicious666darthvicious666 Member Posts: 54 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    I know I will most certainly be 'upgrading' to the Fleet Luna the instant my fleet gets to tier 2 shipyard. It has everything I want.
    STO Academy

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  • drkfrontiersdrkfrontiers Member Posts: 2,477 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    sdkraust wrote: »
    Very OP IMO.

    1.43 Shied Modifier (Highest Shield Modifier I think)
    13 Base Turn (Escort Worthy)
    2 Tac Slots (For two Tac Teams)
    4 Tac Consoles + 4 Sci Consoles (Firepower + Field Gens)
    All of the benefits of being a sci vessel (AKA a tank)

    Only has 29700 Shields but that's OK when you're thinking that other ships of that amount of hull have < 1.0 Shield Modifier

    Glad I'm not the only person that noticed this.

    By itself this is a VERY SOLID ship.

    Teamed with the Fleet Defiant, the MVAE, Escort Carrier & other fed ships, it's just ONE more reason why the devs really didn't think things through in terms of balance.

    Compare this to what the KDF received; it's just unbelievable.

    The Devs build ships in a PvE vacuum. In their naivity of providing PvE with a purpose, they have quite frankly "missed the bus".
  • raptor63549raptor63549 Member Posts: 642 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    A ship that makes a good teammate?

    PERISH THE THOUGHT
  • dknight0001dknight0001 Member Posts: 1,542
    edited July 2012
    sdkraust wrote: »
    Very OP IMO.

    1.43 Shied Modifier (Highest Shield Modifier I think)
    13 Base Turn (Escort Worthy)
    2 Tac Slots (For two Tac Teams)
    4 Tac Consoles + 4 Sci Consoles (Firepower + Field Gens)
    All of the benefits of being a sci vessel (AKA a tank)

    Only has 29700 Shields but that's OK when you're thinking that other ships of that amount of hull have < 1.0 Shield Modifier

    See the red bit? Didn't the original Recon Sci Vessel have the two Tac slots for the two Tac teams?
    I was once DKnight1000, apparently I had taken my own name so now I'm DKnight0001. :confused:
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  • rooster75rooster75 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    sdkraust wrote: »
    Very OP IMO.

    1.43 Shied Modifier (Highest Shield Modifier I think)
    13 Base Turn (Escort Worthy)
    2 Tac Slots (For two Tac Teams)
    4 Tac Consoles + 4 Sci Consoles (Firepower + Field Gens)
    All of the benefits of being a sci vessel (AKA a tank)

    Only has 29700 Shields but that's OK when you're thinking that other ships of that amount of hull have < 1.0 Shield Modifier

    There is pretty much argument to nerf about every Fleet ship tier 2 and above. The points you make are valid and ridiculous at the same time all things considered. If anything it should be moved to tier 3.

    This ship is not even nearly as OP as some of the other ships out there. The bug ship for example...

    I'm not even sure why this ship has been singled out. No one's even obtained it yet.
  • captainforfuncaptainforfun Member Posts: 154 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    sdkraust wrote: »
    Very OP IMO.

    1.43 Shied Modifier (Highest Shield Modifier I think)
    13 Base Turn (Escort Worthy)
    2 Tac Slots (For two Tac Teams)
    4 Tac Consoles + 4 Sci Consoles (Firepower + Field Gens)
    All of the benefits of being a sci vessel (AKA a tank)

    Only has 29700 Shields but that's OK when you're thinking that other ships of that amount of hull have < 1.0 Shield Modifier

    Basically you say the ship is op cause of its tac console and the 10% improvement in hull and shields?

    Cause it can`t be the tac stations, the regular one has the exact same boff layout.

    And every other Fleetversion gets the same improvement in shield and hull compared to their basic version.

    So if i go further with your idea, basically every ship that gets an extra tac console as fleetversion is going to be op?

    Like the Fleetversion of the Tacescort as example. In an escort the console does improve the dmg even more then in a sci ship, cause the basedmg is way higher.

    So in total numbers you got more out of an extra tac console in an escort then in a sci ship.
    Reynolds / Thokal

    U.S.S. Helios -Vesta Class / R.R.W. Dark Science - Dyson Surveillance Science Destroyer
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  • matteo716maikaimatteo716maikai Member Posts: 823
    edited July 2012
    i cant wait to get my grubby little fingers on this ship!

    and the nova refit wont make a good pvp ship, sacrafices too much shields and doesnt get enough firepower to make up for it. it will however make a great pve ship.


    ships i want the most are-

    dssv for the 5 sci console lulz
    recon for the sexy luna
    nova because who doesnt like an underdog
    and intrepid because its currently the best sci bo layout (which in itself makes it slightly op)
    and the nebula, because i love the nebula!

    i figure at 4 consoles each for the luna, nova, and dssv and 1 console for the nebula and interpid... im looking at-

    14 modules at 500 zen each... thats what like... 60-70$ for ships that'll get replaced at some point by something that will cost about as much?

    -shut up and take my money!... not because i want to but because you have nothing better to offer!-
  • kilemorgankilemorgan Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    First.
    I rather like the standard recon science ship. It isn't the biggest or baddest thing on the block but it works. One of several ships that worth the time it took to level up.

    Now.
    I will not be getting a fleet recon science. Not as currently setup. Like I will not be getting any of the fleet ships. I compare the fleet ships to any $20.oo C-Store ship and I personally am left wondering what makes it worth the cash. With c-store ships they are account wide, and have special equipment that are useful. Here, it feels like it's just them giving it a ton of paint and slapping the fleet name on it. I can't even see them worth 1 module on top of all the time and effort players will need to put into getting one.

    It's nice they added to the game, but to me the cost to benefit is too far out of balance for me to do it.
  • tomiottomiot Member Posts: 2 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    1) This already exists for the KDF with the Operations Bortas, a massive battle cruiser with 8x weapon slots.

    2) This is still a Sci Ship with 3/3 Weapons.

    3) This is still a Sci ship limited to at best, single cannons, DBBs or Beam arrays.

    DAMN i want that ship now o.o
  • dknight0001dknight0001 Member Posts: 1,542
    edited July 2012
    kilemorgan wrote: »
    First.
    I rather like the standard recon science ship. It isn't the biggest or baddest thing on the block but it works. One of several ships that worth the time it took to level up.

    Now.
    I will not be getting a fleet recon science. Not as currently setup. Like I will not be getting any of the fleet ships. I compare the fleet ships to any $20.oo C-Store ship and I personally am left wondering what makes it worth the cash. With c-store ships they are account wide, and have special equipment that are useful. Here, it feels like it's just them giving it a ton of paint and slapping the fleet name on it. I can't even see them worth 1 module on top of all the time and effort players will need to put into getting one.

    It's nice they added to the game, but to me the cost to benefit is too far out of balance for me to do it.

    I got to agree here $20 (4 Fleet Modules) for a Console and a 10% Boost to Shield and Hull seems kind of steep. When it's only 1 character.

    For $25 I can get a choice of a lot of nice ships for my entire Fed family.
    I was once DKnight1000, apparently I had taken my own name so now I'm DKnight0001. :confused:
    If I ask you a question it is not an insult but a genuine attempt to understand why.
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  • coffeemikecoffeemike Member Posts: 942 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    My Fleet is past the Tier 2 Shipyard and have been flying the Fleet Recon for a while now... LOVE IT!

    I will get the Fleet Nova just for the hell of it though...

    I like running single cannons on the Fleet Luna Class with turrets... turns like an escort, keeps crowds at bay with GW3, Sensor Analysis helps with the low tac BOFF seating. And as a Joined Trill engineer running this... man sustained weapons fire isn't an issue with 3 out of 5 BOFFs assigned on ship seat that are efficient actually makes me tank a lot.

    It's all about the setup of the ship in the end. I had the same layout with the regular Luna Class ship before I got this fleet version. I like surviving and crowd control.

    Setup:

    Tac Consoles:
    3 MK XI Purple Antiproton Mag regulators, 1 MKXII Blue QTorp console

    Eng Consoles:
    1 MK XI Blue Neutronium armor, 1 Theta Radiation vent console

    Sci Consoles:
    Borg Uni console, MK XI purple Particle Generator, MKXII Blue Emitter Array, MKXII Blue Shield Emitter Amplifier

    Weapons Layout:
    Fore - 2 Single Cannon Antirprotopn MK XI purple, 1 MK XII Purple QTorp launcher (Borg Edition)
    Aft - 2 Mk XI Purple Antiproton turrets, 1 MKXI Harpen Torp launcher

    BOFF Layout:

    Tac
    Ens- TT1
    Lt: HYT1, CRF1

    Eng:
    Lt: ET1, EPtS2

    Sci:
    LtCmd: PH1, ST2, HE3
    Cmd: HE1, TTS, Tractor Beam Repulsors 2, GW3
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