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Balance in general and PVP

captkirrahecaptkirrahe Member Posts: 117 Arc User
edited July 2012 in PvP Gameplay
Thought it might be interesting to put this up for players who didn't listen/read the transcript from the Subspace Radio interview with captgecko.
Just a few quotes from gecko concerning balance in general and pvp balance:



"And part of it is if we want people to be excited about something, if we want people to really want that spinal lance or that antimatter spread or that photon torpedo point defence system you kinda on purpose make it a little overpowered. Just a little bit. Just to make it exciting. Because if we made those powers perfectly balanced, why the hell would I want that?

Yeah, it?s supposed to- you know, when I play a game what I remember is that really hard bad guy or that really cool power I got that was awesome. I don?t remember those ones that were perfectly balanced.

Sometimes it hurts PvP a little, and I recognize that, but there?s always counters, we?re always developing counters for these things.

If things were always balanced and neutral, it would be pretty boring."


That was a bit of insight for me yesterday into cryptics approach to balance, what do you think about it?

I do also however think it is important to remember:

"So there are, there will always be balance problems, it will never be perfect."


For funsies:

"I got all these bugs all over the house and eventually I?m gonna get them fixed. "


Im guessing he's talking about the Jem'Hadar Attack ship. :p
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Post edited by captkirrahe on

Comments

  • edited July 2012
    This content has been removed.
  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    I think he is right. Cool stuff needs to be cool to be sold.
    And cool is the only defined by powerful?

    I disagree.

    Just as examples:
    • A Nova Tier 5 Retrofit is cool because it's the frigging awesome looking Nova, not a sucky Deep Space science Vessel or Golfball ([/target mancom]).
    • A new BO seating, like, say, Cmdr Science, Lt.Cmdr Tactical, Lt.Engineering, Lt.Science, Ensign Science is not strictly speaking more powerful - but it opens up entirely new builds and a new gameplay experience. That's cool!

    And you know what'S not cool: Introducing new unbalanced abilities that are unfun in play. I prefer a Disruptor Javelin (even if it were better than loading my Dual Beam Bank with BO 3) over a Scramble Sensors / Jam Sensors power that's just unfun to encounter.

    And even if it power is a must:
    And it's even ignoring that sometimes having two ways to achieve the same thing that can be used together is also powerful on its own. Like being able to boost your speed every 60 seconds vs being able to boost your speed every 30 seconds.
    Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
  • bitemepwebitemepwe Member Posts: 6,760 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    It would be a true enough statement if the "new" was tested and had those "counters" put into the game before being sold in the Cstore instead of just being rushed to the Cstore to capitalize on the fever to own it and doing counters eventually on the backend after the fever wears off and the complaints are at a maximum.
    Leonard Nimoy, Spock.....:(

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  • redrickyredricky Member Posts: 1,004 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    The fact that he puts the Lance and AMS in the same category is telling.
    _______________
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  • havamhavam Member Posts: 1,735 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    no mention of teamplay in balance concerns,
    to much spreadsheet too little XP
    20 clicks is interesting as a a target, i m not sure what to make of this bit of info
    "There are always counters" is the biggest joke of them all, it discredits everything he said in response to the question, he also dodged the QnA bit, which cannot be excused really
  • mavairomavairo Member Posts: 579
    edited July 2012
    havam wrote: »
    no mention of teamplay in balance concerns,
    to much spreadsheet too little XP
    20 clicks is interesting as a a target, i m not sure what to make of this bit of info
    "There are always counters" is the biggest joke of them all, it discredits everything he said in response to the question, he also dodged the QnA bit, which cannot be excused really

    Always counters. Yeah right.
  • naeviusnaevius Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    There are few lessons from GW2 PvP I wish they would absorb for STO. One is that buffs/CC/debuffs are short duration (like 2 seconds), which makes them more tactical.
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  • tripwire690tripwire690 Member Posts: 178 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    The probem is Captain Gecko doesn't know what the hell he is talking about. If you can't dazzle them with facts, baffle them with bulls**t I say. I smell roses. But did you know that roses really smell like boo boo? If he played this game and had to fight a jem hadar attack ship in a crappy regular game ship for 20 matches straight he'd see how skewered his opinion is.

    If he was forced to play 20 straight games of nothing but being tractored by the 36 danube runabouts being spammed by those two carriers and the akira's escorting them he'd see how fun it was to try and find a target and apply his so called "counter" in the heat of battle after the ams wears off that he could've cleared if he didn't use science team to clear that scramble right before he just got hit with a shut down for 20 seconds straight by viral matrix and subnucleonic beam wears off so he can evasive away to escape the 6 gravity wells just procced between the two carriers currently targeting him both of whom are running two tac teams, two emergency power to shields, and two transfer shield strengths but each of whom simply HAPPEN to be science captains by sheer coincidence of course.
    starfleet_department_of_temporal_investigations_by_gazomg-da64jys.jpg

    Let no other Captain discourage you from what you believe you can achieve in PvP. Debuffs and Disables be damned! Charge up your Backstep and Forge your build out of Lock Boxes, Consoles, and Flash Sales feeding off of only your pure will to chain, spam, and hax your way forward. You will not be forgotten to history.
  • shimmerlessshimmerless Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    redricky wrote: »
    The fact that he puts the Lance and AMS in the same category is telling.

    Cryptic doesn't actually play their own game. I don't know if it was Gecko or someone else but one of the devs pretty much admitted that when they patch ships, they just throw stats out at complete random because no one has enough game experience to know any better.
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  • shimmerlessshimmerless Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    And cool is the only defined by powerful?

    I disagree.

    Just as examples:
    • A Nova Tier 5 Retrofit is cool because it's the frigging awesome looking Nova, not a sucky Deep Space science Vessel or Golfball ([/target mancom]).
    • A new BO seating, like, say, Cmdr Science, Lt.Cmdr Tactical, Lt.Engineering, Lt.Science, Ensign Science is not strictly speaking more powerful - but it opens up entirely new builds and a new gameplay experience. That's cool!

    I also completely agree with this. Honestly the biggest disappointment with the last roster of ships is that the BOff slots are just totally stale and derivative and blah.
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  • dassemstodassemsto Member Posts: 792 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    This just goes to show how little they understand PvP... PWE really needs to send them one of their devs from an asian pvp game... I hope it is only a matter of time before they do so, as PWE SHOULD realize the awsome pvp potential of STO space.

    They should try to compare it to other team sports. How about if soccer rules were changed to allow players to to carry and use a tranquilizer gun? What reason would there be to not carry one? And how fun would the game be if everyone carried one? Two minutes into the match, everyone would be laying immobilized and drewling on the field.

    For the game to be fun, there HAS TO be balance! Every power too strong, or too weak, is directly harmful to the gameplay.

    Another thing Cryptic does not seem to realize, is that PvP is their best tool to gauge the abilities. Balanced PvP lends balance to PvE, where it otherways can't be measured. Balanced PvE leads to more fun gameplay, and a better feeling of quality. It makes PvE tastier and more appealing. These are the benefits of balancing PvP. No if Cryptic would only see this...

    It occured to me.. Just see how many broken abilities there are in ground play, where much less PvP balance feedback reaches them! Look at the kits, where 90% of the abilities are useless. I can't remember last time I ran with another Tac kit than Fireteam, no room for variation=boring.

    (The only quick way to make pvp more doable again, would be to have APO, PH and AtoD grant full immunity to movement debuffs for 45sec, with a 1 minute CD and GCD. (3/4 uptime).)
  • sonicshowersonicshower Member Posts: 216 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    Counters are cool. If they are available and even then if they work properly.
    sh2sxc7.gif
  • tfomegatfomega Member Posts: 812 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    Like I said in another post.. I want the 5 devs against 5 members of one of the best fleets to go into space arena.. and we'll just see how they like it. I guarantee that Devs will come out scratching their heads with sore backsides and thinking "but but but.. no NPC ever did that to me in all my tests".

    Any fleet with strong teamplay skills want to make a challenge to the devs right here and now?

    I AM NOT A FAN OF PWE!!!!
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  • husanakxhusanakx Member Posts: 1,674 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    We don't need to admit it to see that's the way they develop STO.

    I do hope they get a little more oversight from PWE. Shockingly having people not throw up there hands and delete the game goes a long way to ensuring future profits as well.

    Balanced PvP is NOT boring... further proof that the devs also never play this game.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    T captgecko.

    wow..........i really hated this dev. i really did. now its just past hate. i never thought i could rage this badly..............i need to troll him now. but...how........do....i...do...it?(yeah going to act like kirk for that moment) yeah so this dumb dev of a moron wants to hurt pvp to make sales of consoles.......gg. i thought devs tryed to help games grow. not kill them. and i swear if i get a ban or temp ban then this is just awesome censoring. what ever dev...........wish u and the ep left. not gozer. you know why? gozer make say the fourm goers are a bunch of babies but least he cared about the game.
  • bludaggerbludagger Member Posts: 118 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    well after reading all that... not much to say.
    this group sees the light.
    carry on team.
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  • thepleasuredomethepleasuredome Member Posts: 308
    edited July 2012
    Haven't you heard?

    OP *is* the new balance whether you know so or not! Gozer says so.

    Arawn - SOB
    OP *is* the new balance whether you know so or not! Gozer says so.
    Arawn & Ihasa
    OP *is* the new balance, whether you know it or not! Gecko says so.
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  • naffoffpwenaffoffpwe Member Posts: 62 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    Thought it might be interesting to put this up for players who didn't listen/read the transcript from the Subspace Radio interview with captgecko.
    Just a few quotes from gecko concerning balance in general and pvp balance:

    "And part of it is if we want people to be excited about something, if we want people to really want that spinal lance or that antimatter spread or that photon torpedo point defence system you kinda on purpose make it a little overpowered. Just a little bit. Just to make it exciting. Because if we made those powers perfectly balanced, why the hell would I want that?
    I can almost see where he is coming from here, they want (need?) people to buy the new stuff and making it better than whatever else is in game sure is tempting, we are talking Pay To Win here, lest we forget.
    Yeah, it?s supposed to- you know, when I play a game what I remember is that really hard bad guy or that really cool power I got that was awesome. I don?t remember those ones that were perfectly balanced.

    In a single player game, yes right, it is the awesome boss battles you remember but in a multiplayer game, its the closely thought win by the skin of your teeth you remember most and that needs some form of ballance.
    Sometimes it hurts PvP a little, and I recognize that, but there?s always counters, we?re always developing counters for these things.

    Develop all the counters you like, if you don't bother to actually make sure they work, you are wasting your time (and P***ing off your players).
    If things were always balanced and neutral, it would be pretty boring."

    No it wouldn't. How about making it ballanced then letting your playerbase try it and tell you how much fun they find it?
    Cryptic doesn't actually play their own game. I don't know if it was Gecko or someone else but one of the devs pretty much admitted that when they patch ships, they just throw stats out at complete random because no one has enough game experience to know any better.

    As worrying as this statement is, the more I see of Cryptic's development work, the more I believe it, particularly the "just throw stats out at complete random because no one has enough game experience to know any better" part of it.

    I'm seriously doubting there is any hope for improvement here guys. We need to live with what we've got or go elsewhere...
    The user formerly known as DogsBody.
    Here before PWE (and hopefully) here long after PWE is gone.

    What this game needs is PvP, NOT PWE.
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  • warbird001warbird001 Member Posts: 246 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    Why are you complaining about new powers and ships etc... the worst thing was the bloody odyssey, its an affront to canon and is bloody overpowered to boot.

    As for AMS, I have it on all my ships because of the defensive applications such as fighters from those bloody new Akira Retrofits that everyone suddenly has.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    warbird001 wrote: »
    Why are you complaining about new powers and ships etc... the worst thing was the bloody odyssey,

    if u think the oddy was the worse thing then u have problems kid
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