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FOOD for thought.... WEAPONS PROC'S.

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
edited June 2012 in PvP Gameplay
I think much of the PvP community would agree that the energy weapons procs in game need an overhaul. In my opinion weapons in general would hold more weight if they had a passive and an active effect. Here are my suggestions for what energy weapons could do:

Phaser: 2.5% chance to disable weapons for 5 seconds. Passively reduces all weapons damage by 20 once every 15 seconds for 5 seconds.

Tetryon: 2.5% chance to disable a single shied facing for 5 seconds. Passively reduces all shield regeneration by 20 once every 15 seconds for 5 seconds.

Polaron: 2.5% chance to reduce all power levels by 25. Passively irradiates all decks causing dot damage to crew once every 15 seconds for 5 seconds. (currently basically the way it is. Polarons cause extra damage to crew.)

Plasma: 2.5% chance to apply a 1,000k plasma dot over 5 seconds. Passively reduces speed and turnrate by 2.5 once every 15 seconds for 5 seconds.

Disruptor: 2.5% chance to apply an all damage resistance debuff of 10% for 15 seconds. Passively reduces hull repair rate by 10 for 5 seconds every 15 seconds.

Antiproton: 2.5% chance to penetrate shields for 5 seconds.(Basically a version 1 Directed Energy Modulation but in proc form). Passively grants a boost to crit severity and critical chance. (The passive is basically what it does now.)

Now My thought is that NONE of these should stack. And the passives should only reapply their debuff of the specific weapons type. Meaning for example that 5 ships firing Phasers on a single target wouldnt reduce their targets weapons power by 100 but instead would cause that target to consistently fire at minus 20 weapons power once every 15 seconds for 5 seconds. Also to compensate for Antiprotons new D.E.M. like proc critical severity and critical chance could be reduced somewhat slightly from what it's current values are.

I'm not a numbers guy so if anyone likes this idea feel free to reply or re-post my thread with your numbers plugged in. I just was trying to formulate a proposal on what a nice change might actually be. But the most important thing is that we start and maintain a conversation public within the community of the things we really want to see changed in PvP so it is constantly on the developers minds. So what do you guys think?

-Captain Shift-
Post edited by Unknown User on

Comments

  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    Bad Idea

    Phasers are even more OP in this setup and I don't even want to get started on the anti-protons.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    I disagree on the Polaron proc.

    First of all you nerf it to -25 again basically, it was more if u spec into it now.
    Also you totally forget to neglect the EPS transfer that people have.

    Pre S4 it was -25, but everyone had a base of 100% transfer speed. Now basically everyone specs into EPS (also to fully buff EptS etc) so even if u can get a -37~ish polaron proc now basically its been nerfed compared to pre S4.

    Also add to that power insulators decrease the polaron proc effect even more.
    The crew part of the polaron (if it even works) is negligable since crew in pvp literally means nothing lol.

    Polaron should be a 5 second debuff of -25 power levels at least.



    Tetryon proc, whats wrong with the current proc? its not bad or anything. For the proc ur proposing its basically just as OP as the current phaser shield proc, sure its only 1 facing this time, but that proc will proc all the time while phasers was basically a roll with a 25% chance to shield proc. What about when ur hold and the proc goes off? U cant turn to compensate. the same old TRIBBLE.


    Plasma 1000K hull damage for 5 sec, thats 5000K dmg per proc. I think that becomes a bit OP after a while especially with hull debuffs.

    Phaser proc reduces weapons seems a bit too specifically targetted against a single aspect; weapons.
    Ever heard of Pet phaser proc spam? :p


    Disruptor, should have gotten a buff just like the polarons since the game started. -10 hull debuff really just isnt noticable imo. -15 or -20.


    The ideas from procs basically not able to stack sounds good, but i think the opvp community basically agreed on that since .. i cant even remember.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    I disagree on the Polaron proc.

    First of all you nerf it to -25 again basically, it was more if u spec into it now.
    Also you totally forget to neglect the EPS transfer that people have.

    Pre S4 it was -25, but everyone had a base of 100% transfer speed. Now basically everyone specs into EPS (also to fully buff EptS etc) so even if u can get a -37~ish polaron proc now basically its been nerfed compared to pre S4.

    Also add to that power insulators decrease the polaron proc effect even more.
    The crew part of the polaron (if it even works) is negligable since crew in pvp literally means nothing lol.

    Polaron should be a 5 second debuff of -25 power levels at least.



    Tetryon proc, whats wrong with the current proc? its not bad.


    Plasma 1000K hull damage for 5 sec, thats 5000K dmg per proc. I think that becomes a bit OP after a while especially with hull debuffs.

    Phaser proc reduces weapons seems a bit too specifically targetted against a single aspect; weapons.
    Ever heard of Pet phaser proc spam? :p

    There is nothing wrong with the current tetryon proc except for the fact that like every other proc in the game its TRIBBLE compared to phasers. This was just my attempt at some constructive changes that might make all the weapons types more attractive. And the purpose of my post was to get a yay or nay on my idea which I dont think will be very popular. :p And of course to gather other peoples constructive idea on changes that would encourage 90% of the players within the pvp community to use something other than phasers. And thank you for both yours and Aytanhi's prompt feedback. lulz.:D
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    TBH, the current weapon tier in my head is

    Phaser > Polaron > Anti-proton > Tetryon = Disruptor > Plasmas

    Plasma needs a major buff, and disruptor could be looked at again.

    Generally the current weapon procs are pretty balanced, but a lot of people are still running with their equips from previous seasons when phaser was much more powerful such as myself.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    On the plasma weapons... all they need to do to fix those is to align them with the buff they gave the plasma torps recently.

    2.5% chance to apply basicly the same dot the non buffed torps do which is 1500-2000 dmg over 10 seconds.... allow it to stack to a max of 10. I don't see this as being OP and honesty it would be very usable... I have built plasma torp boats and if I can stack 3-4 its enough to burn people from 10% if they don't have a hazards and a few of the procs crit.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    There is nothing wrong with the current proc. This was just my attempt at some constructive changes that might make all the weapons types more attractive. And the purpose of my post was to get a yay or nay on my idea which I dont think will be very popular. :p And of course to gather other peoples constructive idea on changes that would encourage 90% of the players within the pvp community to use something other than phasers. And thank you for both yours and Aytanhi's prompt feedback. lulz.:D

    No problem. that was super fast writing dont bother with the grammar lol

    I just think that based on our current experience with all weapon procs, we need to make decisions based on that.

    For instance;

    Phasers:
    5 sec engine downtime = -15% bonus defense, its not as lethal as shield proc but still very, very effective.
    5 sec shield downtime = Basically 50/50 but often just death.
    5 sec aux downtime = Ok, u cant use your aux based stuff for 5 secs. The chance that u just had to pop that auxiliary heal on that time it procced is pretty low. It happens but not often.
    5 sec weap downtime = ok whatever, too bad. not pretty severe.

    Overall: Most powerful proc in game.

    Tetryon:
    -240~260 shield drain on all facings = Can u really tell? I cant.

    Polaron:
    -25~40 drain on all subsystems = No implications on any shield level, no power system goes down. (Because this only happens at 0) Effect not noticable. Everyone specced into full EPS as expected from PvPer. Also can be countered with some points in insulators. its basically less effective then before Season 4. Crew damage what? who needs crew.

    Plasma:
    - Um... u dont even not feel the proc the whole weapon is basically useless in PvP.

    AP:
    - um... ... .. what um.. why did i take these weapons again? Oh yes! They crit MUCH harder! Oh right! Even my Lolaron DHC [CrtD]x3 gives me higher Severity! Oh well in any case this weapon needs some change and i think we should completely revamp this weapon.

    Disruptor:
    - Hull debuff -10, the effect of hull debuff is just beginning to get noticeable with beta1, not noticable.

    I think this is the accurate description on how most PvP'ers feel these weapons and their proc effectiveness.

    The rest is just placebo effect.

    tbh i doubt that some procs even work :p

    kkprocchnk!
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    You know, phasers can be evened out to polaron level by reducing the proc time by 1 or 2 seconds.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    Yup. haha. All it took was a couple of pvpe'rs but yah. My initial idea is FAR FROM BALANCED:p. However some subtle changes to the weapons proc's is really what would make them a lot more attractive. All in all they are balanced currently but their effects need to be tweaked.

    I'd agree with Aytanhi. Phaser proc wouldn't be so overpowered if the duration of its effect was reduced to 2.5 seconds. I also agree with Husanak that the dot damage on plasma could be tweaked up. MT is right about the Polaron's. With the new system they need an update along with Antiproton's and of course the Tetryon's are barely noticeable on drain. I'd like to see them actually draining something that is visually detectable when the proc goes off.

    Thanks for the feedback guys. I think MT's post about the general idea of how many pvpe'rs feel put the bullseye on the overall feeling of the community when it comes to all six weapons types and their procs.

    -Captain Shift-:)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    For me currently it's Phasers > Polaron/(AP if Tac) > Disrupter > Tet(AP if not Tac) > Plasma

    Phasers - 1 roll, then another if the 1st role is a hit to determine which sub goes down. No stacking/rolling procs. 1 downed system from phasers @ a time. 5 sec immunity from phasers dropping another subsystem. Note: the immunity wouldn't prevent VM or TSSx from dropping a subsystem. Imo weapon procs should be less effecitive then Boff abilities. W/enough phasers shooting at you it's easy to have 3 subsystems drop.

    Plasma - Proc prevents cloaking until cleared/kills crew. Not a damage proc, but can make it harder for Cloaked vessels to escape while setting up TTSx et al to be more effective.

    Tetryon - up the damage by 5-10x what it is now. There's too many shield resists/HP boffs to have it proc @ such a low damage output

    The others I'd leave along for now.

    Also, no weapon procs for pets.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    Tetryon should lower shield resistance rather than do actual damage.... That would make the proc much more useful and still relatively manageable to deal with. Basically disruptors proc for shields.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    While reading this, A thought came to me about the Polaron option you provided..

    What if instead of Crew... It reduced Power transfer rates in addition to the proc provided? That way, it would allow for the Polaron Proc to actually mean something more then it does now..

    Say it provided a -1% Transfer Rate stackable up to a MAX of -50% (Requireing MULTIPLE PLAYERS) where it could only get -10% from one player, so from 5 Players it can reach -50% Transfer rate. Making only Engineers able to assist in defending against it with EPS power transfer Engineering power.

    Phasers, perhaps instead of having a Proc, they simply have an Innate bonus with Target Subsystems attacks. Perhaps when Target Subsystems is used (For beams) they provide an extra -20 Subsystem power for Single beams or -40 for Dual Beams. For cannons, Dual Cannons, Dual Heavy Cannons, and Turrets, Instead of Doing a complete disable, they reduce a single subsystem by Half. So if it's at 125, it would go down to 62. A second Effect, if it hits the same target would go down to 31, but it could never go below 15 to a single subsystem. Emergency Power to Subsystem powers would actually help defend against this effect, because it would actually take that power into account, where it would be brought down by half + Emergency Power to subsystem. So, if some one's shield power is at 125, They have EPtS 1 giving +22 Shield power, they get hit by a Turret Shield Proc, it would drop their shield instead to 84.
    Engineering Team would still clear this effect.

    This could also give a good reason to run Target subsystem attacks and Cannons, Turrets, DHC's or DC's with Beams in some builds. And it would also still give a way to keep Phasers powerful, but no longer automatically Disable a subsystem randomly.

    Also, I agree that Plasma energy weapons need a serious check where their proc is concerned. I think they should just set it so that all Plasma weapons have a chance to place the same DoT on the target, and that each plasma attack can Stack the DoTs up. Make it a max of 1 Dot Per Weapon Per player, so no more then 8 Dots from a single player. And no more then a max of 40 Dots in total. This might mean reducing the Torpedo Dot Damage, but increasing it's Kinetic Damage or Torpedo recharge time perhaps as a comphensation. And perhaps make it so that a High Yield Plasma Torpedo can give More Dots then normal if it hits, perhaps deploying 4 Dots if it hits some thing.

    I like the Idea of Tetryon Weapons reducing Shield resistance. Makes sense.

    Disrupters never really seemed like they needed anything themselves. They always felt like they were the more balanced of the weapons. They provided a little extra help in damage, but never crazy amounts and never buffable from what I could see.

    Maybe to make up for Anti-proton weapons not having a true Proc, beyond extra Crit Severity, they should also have an Innate [Dmg] effect where they are ALWAYS the highest damageing Energy weapons at the base. This way you can pick if you want a Proc that your build might call for, or if your just an Escort looking to Pew Pew, you'd go Anti-proton.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    remove procs and make do with pretty colours and sounds :D

    I wouldn't know if and when my polarons proc anyways...
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    Yup. haha. All it took was a couple of pvpe'rs but yah. My initial idea is FAR FROM BALANCED:p. However some subtle changes to the weapons proc's is really what would make them a lot more attractive. All in all they are balanced currently but their effects need to be tweaked.

    I'd agree with Aytanhi. Phaser proc wouldn't be so overpowered if the duration of its effect was reduced to 2.5 seconds. I also agree with Husanak that the dot damage on plasma could be tweaked up. MT is right about the Polaron's. With the new system they need an update along with Antiproton's and of course the Tetryon's are barely noticeable on drain. I'd like to see them actually draining something that is visually detectable when the proc goes off.

    Thanks for the feedback guys. I think MT's post about the general idea of how many pvpe'rs feel put the bullseye on the overall feeling of the community when it comes to all six weapons types and their procs.

    -Captain Shift-:)

    I also think that no, and I mean _no_ weapon proc should ever buff the raw damage of a weapon, be it normal DPS addition or in form of CritD/H/Acc. I don't mean a warp plasma debuff like Plasma weapons or anything, i just mean raw DPS.

    For the simple reason that in that case every1 would most likely just use those weapons and nothing else.
    AP is such a weapon that basically does that. But, ofcourse we PvP'ers know that instead of AP adding +20 Severity it basically just removes another +20 Severity [mod] and basically adds a worthless [dmg] in place of it. So AP basically only adds a damage mod which can be called unnoticable.

    Also the available weapon mods of AP weapons are just miserable. I think they did that on purpose. After all those weapons were invented to 'take on the borg' or whatever lol.

    All in all i think we can basically invent procs without having to resort to buffing a weapons damage, the current procs of weapon do not sound bad, they are just not properly implemented.

    But in all honestly all procs should have a 'slightly' noticable effect in the long run (i.e. should be noticable after a prolonged 1v1 fight perhaps?), yet shouldnt be lethal by chance. The best thing would be so that even the top players have trouble finding the optimal proc for their goals, because the weapon procs would be so diverse, and yet all have some decent effect.

    That would be the ideal situation imo.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    While reading this, A thought came to me about the Polaron option you provided..

    What if instead of Crew... It reduced Power transfer rates in addition to the proc provided? That way, it would allow for the Polaron Proc to actually mean something more then it does now..

    Say it provided a -1% Transfer Rate stackable up to a MAX of -50% (Requireing MULTIPLE PLAYERS) where it could only get -10% from one player, so from 5 Players it can reach -50% Transfer rate. Making only Engineers able to assist in defending against it with EPS power transfer Engineering power.

    Phasers, perhaps instead of having a Proc, they simply have an Innate bonus with Target Subsystems attacks. Perhaps when Target Subsystems is used (For beams) they provide an extra -20 Subsystem power for Single beams or -40 for Dual Beams. For cannons, Dual Cannons, Dual Heavy Cannons, and Turrets, Instead of Doing a complete disable, they reduce a single subsystem by Half. So if it's at 125, it would go down to 62. A second Effect, if it hits the same target would go down to 31, but it could never go below 15 to a single subsystem. Emergency Power to Subsystem powers would actually help defend against this effect, because it would actually take that power into account, where it would be brought down by half + Emergency Power to subsystem. So, if some one's shield power is at 125, They have EPtS 1 giving +22 Shield power, they get hit by a Turret Shield Proc, it would drop their shield instead to 84.
    Engineering Team would still clear this effect.

    This could also give a good reason to run Target subsystem attacks and Cannons, Turrets, DHC's or DC's with Beams in some builds. And it would also still give a way to keep Phasers powerful, but no longer automatically Disable a subsystem randomly.

    Also, I agree that Plasma energy weapons need a serious check where their proc is concerned. I think they should just set it so that all Plasma weapons have a chance to place the same DoT on the target, and that each plasma attack can Stack the DoTs up. Make it a max of 1 Dot Per Weapon Per player, so no more then 8 Dots from a single player. And no more then a max of 40 Dots in total. This might mean reducing the Torpedo Dot Damage, but increasing it's Kinetic Damage or Torpedo recharge time perhaps as a comphensation. And perhaps make it so that a High Yield Plasma Torpedo can give More Dots then normal if it hits, perhaps deploying 4 Dots if it hits some thing.

    I like the Idea of Tetryon Weapons reducing Shield resistance. Makes sense.

    Disrupters never really seemed like they needed anything themselves. They always felt like they were the more balanced of the weapons. They provided a little extra help in damage, but never crazy amounts and never buffable from what I could see.

    Maybe to make up for Anti-proton weapons not having a true Proc, beyond extra Crit Severity, they should also have an Innate [Dmg] effect where they are ALWAYS the highest damageing Energy weapons at the base. This way you can pick if you want a Proc that your build might call for, or if your just an Escort looking to Pew Pew, you'd go Anti-proton.

    Mhh good thinking, but I think this woul dbe too hard to implement, also because the standard EPS transfer of most people already is 200+% with some decent space trait and EPS to 9. Some even run a EPS console, would the proc really be worthwhile? Also EPS transfer is mainly situational. It would even be more of luck when the proc would kick in right when someone was transfering power.

    I dont know, but good thinking. I think just tweaking the old procs and actually have some nice effect with them so we all know the procs work would be more then fine 2 me.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    Mhh good thinking, but I think this woul dbe too hard to implement, also because the standard EPS transfer of most people already is 200+% with some decent space trait and EPS to 9. Some even run a EPS console, would the proc really be worthwhile? Also EPS transfer is mainly situational. It would even be more of luck when the proc would kick in right when someone was transfering power.

    I dont know, but good thinking. I think just tweaking the old procs and actually have some nice effect with them so we all know the procs work would be more then fine 2 me.

    Could always make it so that from 5 Sources/Players it could drag some one to -200% Requireing EPS consoles to get above it. But then that might seem OP.. *Shrug*
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    Do any of you find the hybrid weapons to be more useful than standard Acc or Crit weapons?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    RedRicky wrote: »
    Do any of you find the hybrid weapons to be more useful than standard Acc or Crit weapons?


    I believe most people end up using the Hybrid weapons types for the combined proc not necessarilly for their modifiers because in general I don't believe they are that good. I'm not absoultely sure because I don't own any. I'm just trying to help. :D

    -Captain Shift-
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    So with this new system what is stopping a rainbow Tank Cruiser from using all the debuffs on a single target, making It's life miserable?

    I think it's better each passive to have less of an effect and to be stack-able up to X times.
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