I'm surprised I'm the only one to have to point out the obvious elephant in the room.
PvP, the only thing left to do in STO, has become an exercise in futility thanks to the latest Starfleet escort-carrier to grace the skies.
The Caitian Carrier already was a huge problem to the future of balanced PvP. No matter how you argue it, the Danube abilities are completely over the top.
Its not even plausible in the remotest sense of the word, for so many holds to be in effect at once and be considered reasonable. At the height of the KDF carrier debacle with the Energy Syphons it was not that bad. You might see 2x carriers on a match not every single ship capable of deploying them non-stop. Sure you will argue that that was reduced. But as soon as you have been snared, and break free you are caught again. I have tried all the resists PH. PSW, GRW, etc. and frankly why should I have to respec my build evertime you decide to release a ship. Half my ships abilities have been sacrificed to no good reason, other than to counter a P2W console and the counter doesn't even do its job properly.
On that subject, when are you going to fix the response times of key presses. Its been 2 years, and keys misfire worse than before.
So instead of correcting that mistake, you release another ship which has the capability of launching them, but on top of that with the firepower and maneuverability of an MVAM escort?
All I ask is that the developers take some time and come and test the results for themselves. Its not fun, unless youre flying one.
If your intention is to make such an attractive purchase for your clientele, then please allow for something with which to played against it. In the space of a few weeks you have nullified the potential of 80% of your own c-store ships....
I do not like the Federation. I play KDF, because it has something the Federation will never have. LORE
Another thing, its short sighted. Once the KDF are absorbed into the Federation (That is your intention right?), and the Feds have to start playing against themselves, will you then suddenly implement change when your prime customers demand it, as you have done in the past? Clearly my dollar is not the same value as theirs.
Bud, you certainly aren't the only one to see this and feel the same way. We've been talking about it but there isn't much hope for change at the moment. They've been pretty clear that they don't intend to make balance passes, presumable because whatever major changes they think they have in store would make any time invested in balancing problems right now a waste of resources.
Keep fighting to good fight! Maybe they'll have a spare minute to put a bandage on some of the major problems. I just don't have much faith at this point. I think we are kind of stuck.
Bud, you certainly aren't the only one to see this and feel the same way. We've been talking about it but there isn't much hope for change at the moment. They've been pretty clear that they don't intend to make balance passes, presumable because whatever major changes they think they have in store would make any time invested in balancing problems right now a waste of resources.
Keep fighting to good fight! Maybe they'll have a spare minute to put a bandage on some of the major problems. I just don't have much faith at this point. I think we are kind of stuck.
Thanks Steve, I have a great deal of respect for you. You're one of the Wild Bunch! Thanks for hearing me. Was starting to feel like I was going insane, and just imagining it.
I consider myself an above average pvper, but when fresh newbies just have to buy a ship, and then promptly clean the floor with my two years investment in this game, I start to take it very personally.
I have to agree with you. Yet many players are claiming to get changes to the Adv. Runabouts since the Atrox has been released. Actually I sometimes feel kinda bad even using one of those in a Hangar Slot. With the new Escort Carrier released, things are getting worse again. Even more: Unlike the enormous numbers of Atrox players right after release, I doubt the numbers of HEC players will decrease over the next few weeks.
After all I have experienced both sides of the medal: Got snared by a dozen of Runabouts, unable to move, all subsystems disabled within such a short time - you don't even have the slots to encounter the massive spam of phaser procs or tractors. Besides that you can't counter those Chronitons anyway. Also I saw matches where a team with three carriers, one cruiser and one escort ruled the other team mostly because of the phaser and pet spam. The other two carriers were completely equipped with Danubes by the way.
On a different matter: It is nice to know I'm not the only one having trouble when trying to activate powers. Often I have to click two or three times before the action actually gets executed.
However, I do infact have a very special place in my very hateful heart, for the Danubes.
they can sequentially hit you with TB for far longer than you have counters for it, furthermore a large portion of counters (FAW, CSV) are not really effective against killing them. The latter due simply to the very restrictive firing arc for cannons, and the 30 degree cone that is coupled with that arc.
The former.. due to well a lack of burst damage compared to the rather obscene hull totals the danubes have.
They won't do anything about it... well perhaps they will when the sell through drops low enough.
We complained about multiple shuttles using tractor beams... so what did they do ?
That's right they buffed em up... now the endless wave after wave after wave of shuttles spewing out of every ship in the match all wait there turn to tractor you..
There is no point in complaining. They don't expect us to be pvping anymore anyway... so don't.
There is more on the way this year as well... by the end of the year there will be 4-5 very good alt mmos we should all be playing... and hay half of them are f2p at launch.
Just FYI, it's not just fed carriers, it's all carriers. The most OP carrier pets atm are the kar'fi frigates though. Each one can cut the dps of an enemy ship in half, slow it, and stun it, etc.
I don't know why the Danube's don't have the same mechanic as the tractor mines. Short lived tractor beams that are weak. Instead of exploding though they need a significant cool down before they can activate it again. I'd also say that if a carrier equips a runabout, it can only equip one runabout, not one in each hangar.
Just FYI, it's not just fed carriers, it's all carriers. The most OP carrier pets atm are the kar'fi frigates though. Each one can cut the dps of an enemy ship in half, slow it, and stun it, etc.
Imo, mix Ad Frigs & Ad Orion Fighters they each use cronts, the ad frigs can HY tric & Ace beam, the fighters have a weapon/engine power drain (Mipol says hi). It is OP and I say this as someone who spent a fair amount of time today abusing it (along w/p2w consoles & phasers/tet glider), at some point I'll have more then 1 blue doff and things will really get bad in terms of debuff cycle time. Pets are the new Sci Boffs w/less cooldown and less player resists. I figure if I do it enough people will see how bad things have gotten across the board. Honestly, I also do this more on the weekend since the weekend tends to bring out a TRIBBLE ton of Spammers/Phaser Proc abusers et al. I keep my cleaner builds for during the week.
Quite frankly, if they aren't going to make any effort to balance PvP for months they should probably just pull the plug on it. If they're going to keep PvP then they need to reassign whoever is in charge of balancing powers somewhere else. Currently people seem to be making an effort during the week to obstain from abusing TRIBBLE. A weighted reward based system will end up forcing people to be abusive or get behind. I just don't see people putting up w/that for long, I know I don't want to and won't.
I'm sure Cryptic is WELL aware of how ****ing unbalanced the pets are, but until they make enough money on the carriers as an idea, dont expect balances anytime soon. How long did it take to nerf the runabouts to only TB you one at a time? I remember it as at least 2 weeks.
They know as well as you do know gamebreaking they can potentially be, which is exactly why everyone will buy the carriers in order to use them. And now a great console comes along to potentially cut some of the spam out, and they have the balls to slap that ON another carrier
OMG stop QQ all. The Dunabea are a b#@%h yes ( will never use them). You all are QQ because you dont use any anti spam tools. Almost no one does.
Pre season 4 when u could launch 6 bop or 24 fighter you know what everyone did use CSV ( + it was op ). They also used grav well BFAW and other anti spam.
In pvp these days, I can go nights without seeing any anti spam. Who's fault is that cryptic? Not really they give u the tools and it goes for both sides its all rapid fire cannon escorts or healing cruiser these days..
I Choose to run anti spam boat and guess what I dont have that problem with any pets TBR +BFAW on my kdf and 2xPDS+BFAW on my fed ( I sacrifice burst to clear spam so my team can move freely, Its a trade off). If you dont bring a anti spam boat to a match thats your fault, the games not going to change, Its cryptic, this has always been sto it just seems like people have forgotten and will have to learn again like pre season 4.
I left sto 8 months ago running anti spam boats grav+ewp , Lore and Qew were spam kings both a good OLD grav well couldnt take care of. ( new one is a PoS)
This is really a whole L2P issue for everyone. We must bring anti spam or your SoL. ( go look at past forums post pre season 4 all the community agreed anti spam tools were needed and people brought them to the field.) These day its QQ "I shouldnt have to change my build nerf them QQQQ"
What cryptic could do is buff sci powers back to their former state, and give us a better targetting on players. Like a list of player in a 15 km range so we can click the list instead of spam.
You can QQ all u want this is sto spam is here to stay and always will be learn to take it out of the picture like the old days.
@IronScarlet: Would it be appropriate to complain about a balance issue when 3x Cruisers running two copies of FaW apiece, a Sci ship with appropriate abilities, and an escort with one scatter volley have extreme difficulty keeping up with pet spam? I've also seen teams of four cruisers with the aforesaid two copies of FaW be unable to keep up with it. When heavy anti-spam measures are deployed, and spam is still over-the-top, there may be a genuine problem.
Its not an issue of run more AOE. I run some extreme AOE builds... like my Spread 3 plasma torp brels... and my Always on scatter / DEM aux to bat galor monstrosity... guess what I can keep up with the garbage spam from one carrier.... assuming I focus on nothing but controlling there junk. 2 carriers... I need help. Now hear me hear I am not saying removing the carriers... just handeling the spam.
The ONLY teams I have played on that have been able to deal with multiple carrier teams are nights when I have had the fortune to be playing with 4 of the best players to have played in the last 2 years. Frankly it takes 3x the skill that should be required to control silly dumb fire pets. It is much harder to control it then it is to just pay your $25 bucks and spam it.
I think my issue is not the fact that the Feds got a Carrier. It's that they got 2 Carriers in 2 Months. And one is a Freeking ESCORT.. Sure it's not a true carrier. It doesn't have 2 hangers. But it's a Freeking ESCORT!
Development Staff at Cryptic.. The ones in charge of Ship Design. Weither it's Al Rivera, or some one else, PLEASE stop being so Fed biased!
The Atrox vs the Vor'quv. Made sense.. And fit about right vs the other..
The new Armatige vs the Marauder? Not even Freeking CLOSE! Because that is really the only compairson that can be made since those are the only two ships in the game that have 1 Hanger bay (Post Season 5)
Now don't get me wrong. I like the concept of an Engineering based Escort. And I love Carriers. But to give it ALSO a hanger bay with no drawbacks is the absolute worst Idea, in my opinion, where game balance is concerned, especially in PVP.
What's next? A Hengh'Tah Bird of Prey Retrofit (You know the Ginormous one) with: Cmd Uni, LtC Uni, Lt Uni, Lt Uni, Ens Uni, 3 Tac Consoles, 3 Sci Conoles, 3 Engi Consoles, 2 Consumable item slots, 4 Fore Weapons, 2 Aft Weapons, Enhanced Battle Cloak, And a Hanger bay that can deploy pets and never leave Enhanced Battle Cloak?
What I'm trying to say is, don't make Gozer's job harder down the line where PVP Balance issues are going to be concerned. Sure the ship it's self might not really look like the worst thing in the world to a normal player. But when you give them to PVPers who can destroy people in seconds a ship that can now deploy extra toys, your just making us question where your going with this?
The Players that I have been reading threads about pet spam in PVP, and complaining heavily against it, don't need more fuel. Again, I like Carriers. They are unique ships to fly and have fun builds normally. How ever adding Carrier capabilities to Escorts is like giving a Cruiser a turn rate as high as a BoP/Jem'Hadar Attack ship. Nothing good would come out of it. And it would hurt PVP even further.
@IronScarlet: Would it be appropriate to complain about a balance issue when 3x Cruisers running two copies of FaW apiece, a Sci ship with appropriate abilities, and an escort with one scatter volley have extreme difficulty keeping up with pet spam? I've also seen teams of four cruisers with the aforesaid two copies of FaW be unable to keep up with it. When heavy anti-spam measures are deployed, and spam is still over-the-top, there may be a genuine problem.
If u saw all this and could not keep up with spam, then I would have to say there alll new players, and have no idia what there doing. I just clear 2 carrier atox spam in pvp with omega+tact+bfaw + well timed pds.
Now what are u talking about 1 carrier 2 carrier 3 carrier a full 5? There are enough tools to clear spam.
If you had 5 carriers, do u think u have 3 anti spam people on your friends list to help. I know I dont and my list is pretty big. Thats my point a cruiser running Bfaw is a joke, and if they are there a tank (is no god n pvp) or a healer none of which have the dps to keep up with spam. You need a specialized sci vessal, escort (CSV or BFAW) or a specialized tact carrier ( Kar'fi/akira). One of those vessal can clear 2.5 carrier worth of spam. Two on a team would clear all 5 carrier spam that leaves 3 to move freally.
TBR is a great way to push a carrier away making him usless with no pets and no one to heal. The Atox and Voq are paper weights when pets are removed.
I think my issue is not the fact that the Feds got a Carrier. It's that they got 2 Carriers in 2 Months. And one is a Freeking ESCORT.. Sure it's not a true carrier. It doesn't have 2 hangers. But it's a Freeking ESCORT!
Development Staff at Cryptic.. The ones in charge of Ship Design. Weither it's Al Rivera, or some one else, PLEASE stop being so Fed biased!
The Atrox vs the Vor'quv. Made sense.. And fit about right vs the other..
The new Armatige vs the Marauder? Not even Freeking CLOSE! Because that is really the only compairson that can be made since those are the only two ships in the game that have 1 Hanger bay (Post Season 5)
Now don't get me wrong. I like the concept of an Engineering based Escort. And I love Carriers. But to give it ALSO a hanger bay with no drawbacks is the absolute worst Idea, in my opinion, where game balance is concerned, especially in PVP.
What's next? A Hengh'Tah Bird of Prey Retrofit (You know the Ginormous one) with: Cmd Uni, LtC Uni, Lt Uni, Lt Uni, Ens Uni, 3 Tac Consoles, 3 Sci Conoles, 3 Engi Consoles, 2 Consumable item slots, 4 Fore Weapons, 2 Aft Weapons, Enhanced Battle Cloak, And a Hanger bay that can deploy pets and never leave Enhanced Battle Cloak?
What I'm trying to say is, don't make Gozer's job harder down the line where PVP Balance issues are going to be concerned. Sure the ship it's self might not really look like the worst thing in the world to a normal player. But when you give them to PVPers who can destroy people in seconds a ship that can now deploy extra toys, your just making us question where your going with this?
The Players that I have been reading threads about pet spam in PVP, and complaining heavily against it, don't need more fuel. Again, I like Carriers. They are unique ships to fly and have fun builds normally. How ever adding Carrier capabilities to Escorts is like giving a Cruiser a turn rate as high as a BoP/Jem'Hadar Attack ship. Nothing good would come out of it. And it would hurt PVP even further.
Akira ships is weaker hands down to the kar'fi, I dont get what all this up roar is about. The Karfi is better in every way except turn rate. Kar'fi are DPS KINGS, akira is just a well rounded ship not really great at anything. The jem'Hadar ship is op x20, so lets nerf the akira it makes perfect sense. People need to play this ship, its good on paper but thats all it is.
If u saw all this and could not keep up with spam, then I would have to say there alll new players, and have no idia what there doing. I just clear 2 carrier atox spam in pvp with omega+tact+bfaw + well timed pds.
The match I'm thinking about had three Kar'fi carriers and a Vo'quv if I remember correctly, so the pets were a bit more durable. I can't recall exactly what the final score was; the KDF may have gotten a kill or two, but it was still a very long, drawn-out and silly match dominated by the pet spam.
As to the skill level of the players involved; please think a bit before you say that sort of thing about the Pandas again.
The match I'm thinking about had three Kar'fi carriers and a Vo'quv if I remember correctly, so the pets were a bit more durable. I can't recall exactly what the final score was; the KDF may have gotten a kill or two, but it was still a very long, drawn-out and silly match dominated by the pet spam.
As to the skill level of the players involved; please think a bit before you say that sort of thing about the Pandas again.
You mean ego stroking ex-lore players, I been around before you were even a cub
If u saw all this and could not keep up with spam, then I would have to say there alll new players, and have no idia what there doing. I just clear 2 carrier atox spam in pvp with omega+tact+bfaw + well timed pds.
Now what are u talking about 1 carrier 2 carrier 3 carrier a full 5? There are enough tools to clear spam.
If you had 5 carriers, do u think u have 3 anti spam people on your friends list to help. I know I dont and my list is pretty big. Thats my point a cruiser running Bfaw is a joke, and if they are there a tank (is no god n pvp) or a healer none of which have the dps to keep up with spam. You need a specialized sci vessal, escort (CSV or BFAW) or a specialized tact carrier ( Kar'fi/akira). One of those vessal can clear 2.5 carrier worth of spam. Two on a team would clear all 5 carrier spam that leaves 3 to move freally.
TBR is a great way to push a carrier away making him usless with no pets and no one to heal. The Atox and Voq are paper weights when pets are removed.
took me awhile to figure out what pds is. Im assuming its point defense system? Ive never used it before. IMO, it seems kind of silly to have to fight pets with a p2w console. Does that thing have a 45 second cd like pet launchers do? And since I see your flying a new light carrier yourself, Im assuming its a FAWscort? I just ask because Im seeing a prediction I had when they announced these of seeing a hell of a lot more FAWscorts running around becoming a reality.
Oh, and saying a karfi has a dps advantage over an escort isnt the best argument in the world. It doesnt even make sense.
The difference between feedback and QQ tends to be whether a self serving player wants to hear it or not.
On a semi-related note, FAWscorts exploit a number of ridiculous mechanics. People who use them have no place in balance discussions. Of course, that's just an opinion of mine. :x
I think the very only problem the klinks have with fed carriers is danube-class-pets.
danube pets are a problem all on their own. They just multiply the new light carriers problem of being out of balance. Balance at its core is a simple idea. If you give a ship an advantage in one area, you have to give it a disadvantage in another area to keep it balanced. This ship got a lt cmdr engy, and they took the lt cmdr tac slot away = simple balance (though, its a little more complex than that since having two different types of lt cmdr abilities on a ship usually gives it an advantage in build possibilities). But in the case of giving it pets, what the hell did they take away to keep it balanced? NOTHING = out of balance.
Let me put it this way. What if the next ship to be released would be a vo'quv refit with an extra hangar bay? No difference whatsoever to the layout, turn rate, etc, just threw on an extra hangar bay? Would that be balanced?
The chief problem with carrier pets is that it amplifies the effect of procs occurring with ridiculous frequency. It's pretty apparent that when they were drawn up, the affect of multiples and how the probability of them occurring rises rapidly was not taken into account. The same can be said of things like Tachyon and Siphon drones. Admittedly, the phaser proc is the worst offender here.
However, there've been some nasty carrier pets on both sides, siphon pods are also quite awkward beasties, and being perma-tractored/chronnied isn't any less crappy than having your power bars all dipping into the purple. There are some players who refrain from using the most OP pets, but many more who lack that kind of restraint. It's the latter that are making PVP in this game less fun. But the carrier pets are exasperating symptoms of other broken systems however, without necessarily being broken in and of themselves, aside from the few notorious ones that've been mentioned.
With regards to the merit of fitting a hangar on an escort, do remember that the Defiant gets a better turn rate and cloaking device, the MVAE splits into a smaller ship and two pets, and the Garumba turns into a death star. This has a single hangar, and that is in balance with this in theory, it's just the capabilities and mechanics of the pets it's possible to slot pushing this out of whack. The Armitage could be considered perfectly well rounded and balanced without touching anything but the energy weapons proc system and fixing Danubes.
The chief problem with carrier pets is that it amplifies the effect of procs occurring with ridiculous frequency. It's pretty apparent that when they were drawn up, the affect of multiples and how the probability of them occurring rises rapidly was not taken into account. The same can be said of things like Tachyon and Siphon drones. Admittedly, the phaser proc is the worst offender here.
However, there've been some nasty carrier pets on both sides, siphon pods are also quite awkward beasties, and being perma-tractored/chronnied isn't any less crappy than having your power bars all dipping into the purple. There are some players who refrain from using the most OP pets, but many more who lack that kind of restraint. It's the latter that are making PVP in this game less fun. But the carrier pets are exasperating symptoms of other broken systems however, without necessarily being broken in and of themselves, aside from the few notorious ones that've been mentioned.
With regards to the merit of fitting a hangar on an escort, do remember that the Defiant gets a better turn rate and cloaking device, the MVAE splits into a smaller ship and two pets, and the Garumba turns into a death star. This has a single hangar, and that is in balance with this in theory, it's just the capabilities and mechanics of the pets it's possible to slot pushing this out of whack. The Armitage could be considered perfectly well rounded and balanced without touching anything but the energy weapons proc system and fixing Danubes.
cloaking device = console slot and pretty narrow build diversity with engy and sci being lt's
mvam = console slot, less shields and hull when split, and pets die and dont come back every 45 secs
garumba = gives up a ton or turn rate
Also doesnt address my original theory. Doesnt it seem to take a ship, slap a hangar bay onto it, and not change a thing about the ship make it out of balance? Then, give it a Lt Cmdr engy slot on top of that.
cloaking device = console slot and pretty narrow build diversity with engy and sci being lt's
mvam = console slot, less shields and hull when split, and pets die and dont come back every 45 secs
garumba = gives up a ton or turn rate
Also doesnt address my original theory. Doesnt it seem to take a ship, slap a hangar bay onto it, and not change a thing about the ship make it out of balance? Then, give it a Lt Cmdr engy slot on top of that.
Don't forget with the MVAM, you also have gibbed sci powers to slot to contend with as well, unless you go for a lame TSS3 in that lt cmdr slot. (which kind of defeats the purpose of the ship, and a FE will still tank better anyway)
With regards to the merit of fitting a hangar on an escort, do remember that the Defiant gets a better turn rate and cloaking device, the MVAE splits into a smaller ship and two pets, and the Garumba turns into a death star. This has a single hangar, and that is in balance with this in theory, it's just the capabilities and mechanics of the pets it's possible to slot pushing this out of whack. The Armitage could be considered perfectly well rounded and balanced without touching anything but the energy weapons proc system and fixing Danubes.
The MVAE also looses things like hull & shield HP when it splits up, the pets aren't really that good, and they have a 10-minute recharge timer.
The Garumba's turn rate goes down the crapper when it goes into death star mode.
The Defiant is at least balanced with the Advanced & Fleet escorts by its wasted ensign tac slot (which is shared by the Armitage & MVAM)
What does the Armitage loose to balance its hanger bay? Lets go with what Fallout said, that the lt. cmdr tac for an lt. cmdr eng is balanced (there is a tradeoff, though I'm not sure as to its balance), but what counters the hanger bay when you compare it to the fleet escort?
They won't do anything about it... well perhaps they will when the sell through drops low enough.
We complained about multiple shuttles using tractor beams... so what did they do ?
That's right they buffed em up... now the endless wave after wave after wave of shuttles spewing out of every ship in the match all wait there turn to tractor you..
There is no point in complaining. They don't expect us to be pvping anymore anyway... so don't.
There is more on the way this year as well... by the end of the year there will be 4-5 very good alt mmos we should all be playing... and hay half of them are f2p at launch.
Let me know who to get a hold of you in guild wars pls maybe use some old school rzr tactic on the ground LOL..
Akira ships is weaker hands down to the kar'fi, I dont get what all this up roar is about. The Karfi is better in every way except turn rate. Kar'fi are DPS KINGS, akira is just a well rounded ship not really great at anything. The jem'Hadar ship is op x20, so lets nerf the akira it makes perfect sense. People need to play this ship, its good on paper but thats all it is.
Not really great at anything? From your signature I take it you fly one? Is that why you do. Because its a "meh" ship?
Or is it because you get all the strengths and none of the weaknesses.
Its console layout is comparible to any +1 escort on the c-store.
Turn rate of a escort
Shield Modifier of a cruiser.
It has a special ability
It has a hangar bay - (either launches fighters with their own added procs, or danubes to hold the target in place.)
What I would like to see is that every Pet's special ability becomes its own BO-like power on the players power tray. Pets don't activate them nilly-willy anymore, but on command of the player. The powers can have sensible cooldowns then, and still be very useful, since the pet uses them when the player plans to use them.
And ideally, in that case a group of Runabouts using Tractor Beam should be only as strng as a regular Tractor Beam I, and scale with the number of pets (e.g. less pets and it becomes weaker than TB1).
Some pets may need their own special abilities, to be worth becoming activatable. Maybe even a suit of abiliies working together. (Say, BoP Cloaked Alpha Strike - Move into Position, pop CRF and HYT, decloak, fire, retreat.
And maybe a step further would be having the pets return to their Carrier to rearm and refuel. That's what real world Carrier-based planes have to do as well. (It's one of ultimately one of the many reasons why I think Carriers in Startrek are bullsh*t, but nothing gonna change that now.)
Comments
Keep fighting to good fight! Maybe they'll have a spare minute to put a bandage on some of the major problems. I just don't have much faith at this point. I think we are kind of stuck.
Thanks Steve, I have a great deal of respect for you. You're one of the Wild Bunch! Thanks for hearing me. Was starting to feel like I was going insane, and just imagining it.
I consider myself an above average pvper, but when fresh newbies just have to buy a ship, and then promptly clean the floor with my two years investment in this game, I start to take it very personally.
After all I have experienced both sides of the medal: Got snared by a dozen of Runabouts, unable to move, all subsystems disabled within such a short time - you don't even have the slots to encounter the massive spam of phaser procs or tractors. Besides that you can't counter those Chronitons anyway. Also I saw matches where a team with three carriers, one cruiser and one escort ruled the other team mostly because of the phaser and pet spam. The other two carriers were completely equipped with Danubes by the way.
On a different matter: It is nice to know I'm not the only one having trouble when trying to activate powers. Often I have to click two or three times before the action actually gets executed.
However, I do infact have a very special place in my very hateful heart, for the Danubes.
they can sequentially hit you with TB for far longer than you have counters for it, furthermore a large portion of counters (FAW, CSV) are not really effective against killing them. The latter due simply to the very restrictive firing arc for cannons, and the 30 degree cone that is coupled with that arc.
The former.. due to well a lack of burst damage compared to the rather obscene hull totals the danubes have.
They won't do anything about it... well perhaps they will when the sell through drops low enough.
We complained about multiple shuttles using tractor beams... so what did they do ?
That's right they buffed em up... now the endless wave after wave after wave of shuttles spewing out of every ship in the match all wait there turn to tractor you..
There is no point in complaining. They don't expect us to be pvping anymore anyway... so don't.
http://endofnations.com/en/ Try to get in on some wicked beta action
http://mwomercs.com/ To register your pilots name up
http://www.guildwars2.com/en/ get ready to do the sword and Sorc thing again for awhile
There is more on the way this year as well... by the end of the year there will be 4-5 very good alt mmos we should all be playing... and hay half of them are f2p at launch.
Imo, mix Ad Frigs & Ad Orion Fighters they each use cronts, the ad frigs can HY tric & Ace beam, the fighters have a weapon/engine power drain (Mipol says hi). It is OP and I say this as someone who spent a fair amount of time today abusing it (along w/p2w consoles & phasers/tet glider), at some point I'll have more then 1 blue doff and things will really get bad in terms of debuff cycle time. Pets are the new Sci Boffs w/less cooldown and less player resists. I figure if I do it enough people will see how bad things have gotten across the board. Honestly, I also do this more on the weekend since the weekend tends to bring out a TRIBBLE ton of Spammers/Phaser Proc abusers et al. I keep my cleaner builds for during the week.
Quite frankly, if they aren't going to make any effort to balance PvP for months they should probably just pull the plug on it. If they're going to keep PvP then they need to reassign whoever is in charge of balancing powers somewhere else. Currently people seem to be making an effort during the week to obstain from abusing TRIBBLE. A weighted reward based system will end up forcing people to be abusive or get behind. I just don't see people putting up w/that for long, I know I don't want to and won't.
They know as well as you do know gamebreaking they can potentially be, which is exactly why everyone will buy the carriers in order to use them. And now a great console comes along to potentially cut some of the spam out, and they have the balls to slap that ON another carrier
Pre season 4 when u could launch 6 bop or 24 fighter you know what everyone did use CSV ( + it was op
In pvp these days, I can go nights without seeing any anti spam. Who's fault is that cryptic? Not really they give u the tools and it goes for both sides its all rapid fire cannon escorts or healing cruiser these days..
I Choose to run anti spam boat and guess what I dont have that problem with any pets TBR +BFAW on my kdf and 2xPDS+BFAW on my fed ( I sacrifice burst to clear spam so my team can move freely, Its a trade off). If you dont bring a anti spam boat to a match thats your fault, the games not going to change, Its cryptic, this has always been sto it just seems like people have forgotten and will have to learn again like pre season 4.
I left sto 8 months ago running anti spam boats grav+ewp , Lore and Qew were spam kings both a good OLD grav well couldnt take care of. ( new one is a PoS)
This is really a whole L2P issue for everyone. We must bring anti spam or your SoL. ( go look at past forums post pre season 4 all the community agreed anti spam tools were needed and people brought them to the field.) These day its QQ "I shouldnt have to change my build nerf them QQQQ"
What cryptic could do is buff sci powers back to their former state, and give us a better targetting on players. Like a list of player in a 15 km range so we can click the list instead of spam.
You can QQ all u want this is sto spam is here to stay and always will be learn to take it out of the picture like the old days.
The ONLY teams I have played on that have been able to deal with multiple carrier teams are nights when I have had the fortune to be playing with 4 of the best players to have played in the last 2 years. Frankly it takes 3x the skill that should be required to control silly dumb fire pets. It is much harder to control it then it is to just pay your $25 bucks and spam it.
Development Staff at Cryptic.. The ones in charge of Ship Design. Weither it's Al Rivera, or some one else, PLEASE stop being so Fed biased!
The Atrox vs the Vor'quv. Made sense.. And fit about right vs the other..
The new Armatige vs the Marauder? Not even Freeking CLOSE! Because that is really the only compairson that can be made since those are the only two ships in the game that have 1 Hanger bay (Post Season 5)
Now don't get me wrong. I like the concept of an Engineering based Escort. And I love Carriers. But to give it ALSO a hanger bay with no drawbacks is the absolute worst Idea, in my opinion, where game balance is concerned, especially in PVP.
What's next? A Hengh'Tah Bird of Prey Retrofit (You know the Ginormous one) with: Cmd Uni, LtC Uni, Lt Uni, Lt Uni, Ens Uni, 3 Tac Consoles, 3 Sci Conoles, 3 Engi Consoles, 2 Consumable item slots, 4 Fore Weapons, 2 Aft Weapons, Enhanced Battle Cloak, And a Hanger bay that can deploy pets and never leave Enhanced Battle Cloak?
What I'm trying to say is, don't make Gozer's job harder down the line where PVP Balance issues are going to be concerned. Sure the ship it's self might not really look like the worst thing in the world to a normal player. But when you give them to PVPers who can destroy people in seconds a ship that can now deploy extra toys, your just making us question where your going with this?
The Players that I have been reading threads about pet spam in PVP, and complaining heavily against it, don't need more fuel. Again, I like Carriers. They are unique ships to fly and have fun builds normally. How ever adding Carrier capabilities to Escorts is like giving a Cruiser a turn rate as high as a BoP/Jem'Hadar Attack ship. Nothing good would come out of it. And it would hurt PVP even further.
If u saw all this and could not keep up with spam, then I would have to say there alll new players, and have no idia what there doing. I just clear 2 carrier atox spam in pvp with omega+tact+bfaw + well timed pds.
Now what are u talking about 1 carrier 2 carrier 3 carrier a full 5? There are enough tools to clear spam.
If you had 5 carriers, do u think u have 3 anti spam people on your friends list to help. I know I dont and my list is pretty big. Thats my point a cruiser running Bfaw is a joke, and if they are there a tank (is no god n pvp) or a healer none of which have the dps to keep up with spam. You need a specialized sci vessal, escort (CSV or BFAW) or a specialized tact carrier ( Kar'fi/akira). One of those vessal can clear 2.5 carrier worth of spam. Two on a team would clear all 5 carrier spam that leaves 3 to move freally.
TBR is a great way to push a carrier away making him usless with no pets and no one to heal. The Atox and Voq are paper weights when pets are removed.
Akira ships is weaker hands down to the kar'fi, I dont get what all this up roar is about. The Karfi is better in every way except turn rate. Kar'fi are DPS KINGS, akira is just a well rounded ship not really great at anything. The jem'Hadar ship is op x20, so lets nerf the akira it makes perfect sense. People need to play this ship, its good on paper but thats all it is.
As to the skill level of the players involved; please think a bit before you say that sort of thing about the Pandas again.
You mean ego stroking ex-lore players, I been around before you were even a cub
took me awhile to figure out what pds is. Im assuming its point defense system? Ive never used it before. IMO, it seems kind of silly to have to fight pets with a p2w console. Does that thing have a 45 second cd like pet launchers do? And since I see your flying a new light carrier yourself, Im assuming its a FAWscort? I just ask because Im seeing a prediction I had when they announced these of seeing a hell of a lot more FAWscorts running around becoming a reality.
Oh, and saying a karfi has a dps advantage over an escort isnt the best argument in the world. It doesnt even make sense.
On a semi-related note, FAWscorts exploit a number of ridiculous mechanics. People who use them have no place in balance discussions. Of course, that's just an opinion of mine. :x
danube pets are a problem all on their own. They just multiply the new light carriers problem of being out of balance. Balance at its core is a simple idea. If you give a ship an advantage in one area, you have to give it a disadvantage in another area to keep it balanced. This ship got a lt cmdr engy, and they took the lt cmdr tac slot away = simple balance (though, its a little more complex than that since having two different types of lt cmdr abilities on a ship usually gives it an advantage in build possibilities). But in the case of giving it pets, what the hell did they take away to keep it balanced? NOTHING = out of balance.
Let me put it this way. What if the next ship to be released would be a vo'quv refit with an extra hangar bay? No difference whatsoever to the layout, turn rate, etc, just threw on an extra hangar bay? Would that be balanced?
However, there've been some nasty carrier pets on both sides, siphon pods are also quite awkward beasties, and being perma-tractored/chronnied isn't any less crappy than having your power bars all dipping into the purple. There are some players who refrain from using the most OP pets, but many more who lack that kind of restraint. It's the latter that are making PVP in this game less fun. But the carrier pets are exasperating symptoms of other broken systems however, without necessarily being broken in and of themselves, aside from the few notorious ones that've been mentioned.
With regards to the merit of fitting a hangar on an escort, do remember that the Defiant gets a better turn rate and cloaking device, the MVAE splits into a smaller ship and two pets, and the Garumba turns into a death star. This has a single hangar, and that is in balance with this in theory, it's just the capabilities and mechanics of the pets it's possible to slot pushing this out of whack. The Armitage could be considered perfectly well rounded and balanced without touching anything but the energy weapons proc system and fixing Danubes.
cloaking device = console slot and pretty narrow build diversity with engy and sci being lt's
mvam = console slot, less shields and hull when split, and pets die and dont come back every 45 secs
garumba = gives up a ton or turn rate
Also doesnt address my original theory. Doesnt it seem to take a ship, slap a hangar bay onto it, and not change a thing about the ship make it out of balance? Then, give it a Lt Cmdr engy slot on top of that.
Don't forget with the MVAM, you also have gibbed sci powers to slot to contend with as well, unless you go for a lame TSS3 in that lt cmdr slot. (which kind of defeats the purpose of the ship, and a FE will still tank better anyway)
The Garumba's turn rate goes down the crapper when it goes into death star mode.
The Defiant is at least balanced with the Advanced & Fleet escorts by its wasted ensign tac slot (which is shared by the Armitage & MVAM)
What does the Armitage loose to balance its hanger bay? Lets go with what Fallout said, that the lt. cmdr tac for an lt. cmdr eng is balanced (there is a tradeoff, though I'm not sure as to its balance), but what counters the hanger bay when you compare it to the fleet escort?
Let me know who to get a hold of you in guild wars pls maybe use some old school rzr tactic on the ground LOL..
Both faction have some seriously OP pets , easy to make overwelming builds that require little skill and suck the fun riht out of PvP
Not really great at anything? From your signature I take it you fly one? Is that why you do. Because its a "meh" ship?
Or is it because you get all the strengths and none of the weaknesses.
Its console layout is comparible to any +1 escort on the c-store.
Turn rate of a escort
Shield Modifier of a cruiser.
It has a special ability
It has a hangar bay - (either launches fighters with their own added procs, or danubes to hold the target in place.)
And ideally, in that case a group of Runabouts using Tractor Beam should be only as strng as a regular Tractor Beam I, and scale with the number of pets (e.g. less pets and it becomes weaker than TB1).
Some pets may need their own special abilities, to be worth becoming activatable. Maybe even a suit of abiliies working together. (Say, BoP Cloaked Alpha Strike - Move into Position, pop CRF and HYT, decloak, fire, retreat.
And maybe a step further would be having the pets return to their Carrier to rearm and refuel. That's what real world Carrier-based planes have to do as well. (It's one of ultimately one of the many reasons why I think Carriers in Startrek are bullsh*t, but nothing gonna change that now.)