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Surviving three simultaneous alpha strikes?

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
edited June 2012 in PvP Gameplay
Yes, indeed, it was claimed to me that there is a way to survive three simultaneous alpha strikes. I just don't see how. Does anyone know?
Post edited by Unknown User on
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  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    It depends, are you getting subnuc'd with this aswell or not?

    If you arn't getting subnuc'd.
    Make sure your EPTS is up before hand (it should be up nearly 24/7).
    TT as soon as it starts.
    RSF/Similar if you have them.
    As your shields take some punishment TSS and start distributing.
    As your TT wears off and your distributing can't deal with the strike pop RSP if you have it.
    Hopefully that buys you enough time to hit another TT with another set of full shields.
    As your shields wear out use BFI with SDO's on your roster and hopefully jump back to full.
    Continue to distribute hoping to last long enough to get another TT and somehow get more shield healing usually from an ST.

    Thats probably atleast 30+ seconds of on your own survival from pretty much any realistic number of threats including more than 3.
    At the very least you seriously thwarted there Alpha's/CD's and if you can turn it around on them (as a team) you can usually prevail or atleast make them run and try again later.

    The real question is not can you survive but "how long". Thats assuming also you arn't getting any cross healing, if you can get a ES and possibly some outside heals, congrats to you as your life just got ALOT easier.
    It also depends heavily on the ship you have and what boffs you run, though its possible.

    Now that said if they are also bringing Subnuc's you are probably gonna get trounced unless you have serious outside support.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    EPtS and Tactical Team. High shield resistance (hardened shields), especially from high shield power, blunt a lot of attacks. Keep moving. RSP if the pressure is too high and you need 9-20 seconds to think. Resistance consoles. Shield Distribution and Hazard Doffs for when you Brace for Impact. Use Evasive Maneuvers.

    Science Team by itself won't protect you long, but if you couple it with high shield power and maybe a Transfer Shield Strength that should reduce the impact of torpedoes and dampen energy weapons nicely. You have to know when to stack what powers and how to manage your power levels.

    There is always a chance that they'll bring something like a SNB to ruin your planned defense so try to think about a back up plan (like leading with RSP as bait and saving your resistances, or using your resistances and saving RSP for the SNB). There is also the chance of a decent critical hit.

    I watch plenty of players shrug off pretty significant Alpha strikes. You have to pay attention. Of course, if the guys attacking you are worth their salt you won't live forever. No one should. The ultimate solution is to help yourself with a strong build, learn to fly it, and hope whoever you are flying with has sense enough to help.

    Sometimes the best plans go wrong. I love the UI lag personally. There is nothing like dying after 5 failed attempts to engage RSP.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    sophlogimo wrote:
    Yes, indeed, it was claimed to me that there is a way to survive three simultaneous alpha strikes. I just don't see how. Does anyone know?

    Good heavens...

    On a cruiser or a carrier, you don't play an engineer do you...

    Shoot... even on a sci ship...

    Shield resists stacks, smart clearing of SNB, knowing the enemy and what they like to load up, etc. tac team tac team tac team + shield resist stacks...

    EPTS + TSS + TT > RSF + TT > EPTS + TT > TSS + TT or whatever, just react to incoming fire smartly.

    I think you're the best troll here sir. Bravo. People have survived being focused fired by 3+ ships, survived 3 separate alphas with good resource management, and you've apparently survived the forums through sheer willful ignorance.

    EDIT:
    I think I now see why you really can't take other people's advice very well. You play PvP like it's yourself against the world. Come join up in OPVP for a pugmade or two, and learn from some of the best fliers in the quadrant.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    I survive 3 alpha strikes if I know its comming on my escort too.. Its called engine battery and evasive manouvers.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    Zorena wrote:
    I survive 3 alpha strikes if I know its comming[...]

    Hm, I guess that's the key.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    shelev wrote:
    EPTS
    SteveHale wrote:
    EPtS
    gx4th wrote:
    EPTS

    Time to start using EPtS, Sophlogimo. :D
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    Tick0 wrote:
    Time to start using EPtS, Sophlogimo. :D

    Be quiet Grifin...

    I like soft carriers...
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    Could someone please explain the math behind EPTS blocking 100k of damage and an SNB? Must have missed that back when I was using a cruiser.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    sophlogimo wrote:
    Could someone please explain the math behind EPTS blocking 100k of damage and an SNB? Must have missed that back when I was using a cruiser.

    There is no math but pilot instinct.

    EPTS is cancelled by SNB

    Throw another shield regen/hardening power like TSS + auto balance TT

    Reapply anything else after that as needed. AP:D, etc. etc.

    You don't know how to stack powers and react to fire in this game?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    Well, by the time I have hit Sci Team and then TSS, I am dead from those 100k damage. But I guess that's just because I am just so incredibly bad at this game.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    sophlogimo wrote:
    Could someone please explain the math behind EPTS blocking 100k of damage and an SNB? Must have missed that back when I was using a cruiser.

    EPtS alone isn't going to do the job, but it sure as hell will help. ;)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    If you burn all of your defenses at once then you earned your SNB death. If someone SNBs your EPtS then high shield power and decent engine power (like from a battery) will keep your resistance and defense high. Usually that's a good time, if the incoming damage is severe enough, to high RSP. Or run.

    Just remember that if you are in a PvP match then someone is always just about to alpha you. If you are watching TV or otherwise not paying attention you have no business surviving a coordinated attack anyway, lol.

    I just hope anyone who stumbles across these threads approach them with an open mind. Even if this guy already knows what he needs, someone else could benefit from these discussions.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    sophlogimo wrote:
    Well, by the time I have hit Sci Team and then TSS, I am dead from those 100k damage. But I guess that's just because I am just so incredibly bad at this game.

    Is that your back side talking which seems to be making more sense? :)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    sophlogimo wrote:
    Well, by the time I have hit Sci Team and then TSS, I am dead from those 100k damage. But I guess that's just because I am just so incredibly bad at this game.

    Sounds very defeatist.

    Hop in your Escort and learn what they do. Then maybe you'll learn how to defend against it.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    That's why I was asking for the math.

    Okay, let's do the math.

    Say, I combine TSS3(16%) and EPTS3(18%) and maximum shield power (35%) and possibly a Exocomp battery buff (10%) on a MACO shield (10%), I get something like 89 total shield resistance. That will not stop 89% of the incoming damage, but, according to STOwiki, 45%. Meaning my (at best) 20k shields will be down and my hull will take 45k damage - which, even at a top 40% resistance (disregarding Sensor Scan or FOMM for a moment, much like SNB), would still be 27k raw damage, or down to 20 k hull with heavier ships.

    And that was only the first volley. Rarely would a team of three escorts stop with that, they would follow up - and even if I have TT active, bringing my other facings to bear, that makes 4-5 seconds out of 1.

    So, where's the error?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    Obviously the error is with everyone else.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    SteveHale wrote: »
    Obviously the error is with everyone else.

    Math is not about personal preference. That is why I am using it for discussing such things. Should the above computation be wrong, please show me where.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    You could log off? Nah, don't do that. RSP+Evasive.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    What exactly are you trying to defend against? 3 people alpha striking you with SNB plus 100k dmg? So, you're saying you want to survive an SNB and 300k dmg all in the span of 2-3 seconds?

    Or are you really just saying you want to be able to stay alive longer in general?

    Because if you are actually getting SNB+300k dmg frequently, you should just get used to popping RSP and running away. But if you're just wanting better resistance in general, the advice these guys are giving you will help, you just need to learn how and when to use your powers.

    Also, TACs aren't really ever going to be able to survive the massive alphas unless they run. TACs in cruisers/carriers, which I understand you are a TAC in a Carrier, because you can't get your speed high enough to gut a good defense bonus, and you don't have the dmg resist abilities of an ENG.

    If you want to be a TAC in a carrier, get used to two things;

    1) People are going to shoot you a lot. You're an obvious target. Not enough DPS to be scared of, not enough tanking to worry about.

    2) You can't tank like an ENG. There's nothing you can do about that.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    Ah, there is the error. Shield resistance works differently from hull resistance, that's why.

    So we have (1-16%)*(1-18%)*1-35%)*1-10%*(1-10%)= 0,84*0,82*0,65*0,9*0,9= 36% remaining damage.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    A few times in Kerrat I have survived five or more Player controlled Birds of Prey and typically a single Cruiser or carrier focus firing on solely myself for over four minutes.

    The trick is to know exactly when to use your bridge officer abilities, and in what circumstances, and in what order to mitigate the damage being dealt to your shields and/or hull. This requires you, as the captain of your ship, to stay calm and focused; as to not get too excited and blow your entire bag of tricks all at once.

    The biggest threat to a cruiser is actually NOT an alpha strike by opponent escorts, even three or more Tactical Captains in Tactical Escorts is not as dangerous as a Science Captain in an Escort to your cruiser; especially if there is more than one. Understand that, three simultaneous Alpha strikes can be thwarted by good use of Tactical Team and Emergency Power to Shields III; assuming High Shield and High Auxiliary power levels are active for the duration of the attack phase of your opponents.

    Now, if your EPTS-III and TT-I combo are countered by a Sub-Nucleonic Beam, it is highly recommended that you have at least saved your Rotate Shield Frequency Skill, assuming you are an Engineer in a Cruiser, and at least a single copy of Reverse Shield Polarity. These two abilities will buy you some time to use your Science team to clear the science de-buff in order to get your Tactical Team and Emergency power chain back up and running.

    I could go on and on about tactics in different scenarios, but ultimately, you will have to find your own way! No one can execute your bridge officer abilities for you and no one can explain how to use bridge office abilities in every situation, just some or even maybe most. The best place to practice new builds and tactics is by actually trying them over and over again.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    Don't forget to take into account accuracy, defense, movement, distance, speed, approach patterns, angle(s) of attack/escape, buff stacking, debuff stacking, server load strain, etc. Make sure you apply those variables to your formula.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    SteveHale wrote: »
    Don't forget to take into account accuracy, defense, movement, distance, speed, approach patterns, angle(s) of attack/escape, buff stacking, debuff stacking, server load strain, etc. Make sure you apply those variables to your formula.
    sophlogimo, if you understand what Hale's point REALLY is here, you'll improve immediately.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    I am unsure about that. Please explain.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    Assuming I'm reading Hale's mind correctly, his basic point is that trying to break down your system to an equation is pointless in the long run, because there are too many other variables in play. It is better to simply learn how to analyze a situation and react in real time.

    Yes, you have 65% resist. Great. But how will that be affected by the FoMM, APD, SensScan, etc that your enemies are hitting you with? How accurate are their weapons? How much is your defense rating affecting their accuracy and damage at the moment? Those questions are MUCH more important than your raw theoretical resist calculation. And THOSE are the things you have to learn to watch for and react to.

    STO's PvP simply isn't that much about just the raw math, it's about timing and situation awareness.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    sophlogimo wrote:
    Yes, indeed, it was claimed to me that there is a way to survive three simultaneous alpha strikes. I just don't see how. Does anyone know?

    Tac team, RSP, Emergency Power to X, Transfer Shield, I think that will do it!
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    sophlogimo wrote:
    Well, by the time I have hit Sci Team and then TSS, I am dead from those 100k damage. But I guess that's just because I am just so incredibly bad at this game.

    Why do you keep thinking and using your Sci teams as main heals/resist? They are not ment for that.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    Sci team to clear the SNB. ;)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    sophlogimo wrote:
    Okay, let's do the math.

    Say, I combine TSS3(16%) and EPTS3(18%) and maximum shield power (35%) and possibly a Exocomp battery buff (10%) on a MACO shield (10%), I get something like 89 total shield resistance. That will not stop 89% of the incoming damage, but, according to STOwiki, 45%. Meaning my (at best) 20k shields will be down and my hull will take 45k damage - which, even at a top 40% resistance (disregarding Sensor Scan or FOMM for a moment, much like SNB), would still be 27k raw damage, or down to 20 k hull with heavier ships.

    So, where's the error?

    1) You used the hull resist formula when calculating shield resists. Combining the buffs you mention gives 1- (1-0,16) * (1-0,18) * (1-0,35) * (1-0,1) * (1-0,1) = 63,7% shield resist.

    2) You did not use TT in your calculations. What is the max shield capacity on a carrier? 20k per facing with stacked field generators? Let's be conservative and say 15k. That's 60k total shields with 63,7% resist which means an effective shield capacity of 60k / (1 - 63,7%) = 165k.

    So unless you get oneshotted with multiple beam overloads (which is pretty much impossible to defend against, but also pretty much impossible to pull off reliably as an attacker), you'll be able to use this full shield capacity.

    Then there is shield healing from TSS which also gets amplified by the resists and TT (so you use the heals for all four facings). I don't have the exact numbers at the moment, but I guess that TSS3 will bring your total effective capcity up to something like 200k. If your BFI doffs trigger, it will add another huge amount of shield points and resists.


    Then you add in hull with resists (25% or something like that?) and gain an additional 55k / (1- 25%) = 73k buffer.

    Now since we are talking about alphastrikes, it is entirely possible that this is at the beginning of an encounter which means that your borg procs are available. So not only will you get a strong hull heal, you will most likely receive the borg shield proc which gives you a big resist increase and shield healing.

    So I guess with all these buffs you can take well over 300k damage (and that's without the next 10s of RSP that you will survive).


    The average DPS of a good escort something like 4k. Fully buffed, maybe 8k sustained damage per second during the first 10 seconds with CRF/APO. So with three escorts that's 24k per second, meaning that you will survive more than 12 seconds. Long enough for their CRF/APO to run out and give you some breathing room while your TT is inactive for 5s (Tac Ini means you have only 15s cooldown, so only 5s downtime). Now another 10s of RSP, some running with evasive to avoid their firing arcs and you have survived their 30s of APA and are more or less safe now.


    Of course you can modify some of these values. Maybe a carrier has more shield capacity than 15k per facing or a fully buffed escort can sustain more than 8k dps during the initial run. But I think you get the basic idea here.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    mancom wrote:
    1) You used the hull resist formula when calculating shield resists. Combining the buffs you mention gives 1- (1-0,16) * (1-0,18) * (1-0,35) * (1-0,1) * (1-0,1) = 63,7% shield resist.

    2) You did not use TT in your calculations. What is the max shield capacity on a carrier? 20k per facing with stacked field generators? Let's be conservative and say 15k. That's 60k total shields with 63,7% resist which means an effective shield capacity of 60k / (1 - 63,7%) = 165k.

    So unless you get oneshotted with multiple beam overloads (which is pretty much impossible to defend against, but also pretty much impossible to pull off reliably as an attacker), you'll be able to use this full shield capacity.

    Then there is shield healing from TSS which also gets amplified by the resists and TT (so you use the heals for all four facings). I don't have the exact numbers at the moment, but I guess that TSS3 will bring your total effective capcity up to something like 200k. If your BFI doffs trigger, it will add another huge amount of shield points and resists.


    Then you add in hull with resists (25% or something like that?) and gain an additional 55k / (1- 25%) = 73k buffer.

    Now since we are talking about alphastrikes, it is entirely possible that this is at the beginning of an encounter which means that your borg procs are available. So not only will you get a strong hull heal, you will most likely receive the borg shield proc which gives you a big resist increase and shield healing.

    So I guess with all these buffs you can take well over 300k damage (and that's without the next 10s of RSP that you will survive).


    The average DPS of a good escort something like 4k. Fully buffed, maybe 8k sustained damage per second during the first 10 seconds with CRF/APO. So with three escorts that's 24k per second, meaning that you will survive more than 12 seconds. Long enough for their CRF/APO to run out and give you some breathing room while your TT is inactive for 5s (Tac Ini means you have only 15s cooldown, so only 5s downtime). Now another 10s of RSP, some running with evasive to avoid their firing arcs and you have survived their 30s of APA and are more or less safe now.


    Of course you can modify some of these values. Maybe a carrier has more shield capacity than 15k per facing or a fully buffed escort can sustain more than 8k dps during the initial run. But I think you get the basic idea here.

    Ofcourse practically all those numbers are still somewhat subject to change up or down but this is basically all explained in a nutshell.

    This pretty much explains you not dying instantly by 3 fully buffed escorts because this basically (in the fortunate situation) not touch the hull enough for you to die :)

    And thats what its all about, if your hull dies you die. and thats the whole point!

    What people forget often is that resist does not only resist you against 1 target, but against all who fire on you. if you have 60% shield reduction, basically speaking all 3 escorts that fire on you have their dps diminished by that factor.
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