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No Win Scenario

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
edited June 2012 in PvP Gameplay
Gents (and ladies), we may have stumbled across the first pve stf that actually helps "train" new pvpers. It is currently on tribble and boy does it make you work as a team. Its a new stf called "No win scenario" where you face 10 waves of enemies, each wave getting harder and harder. The first iteration of it was lame but the second version really does make you use pvp experience I.e teamwork, communication and cross healing.

Give it a try guys. You might be pleasantly surprised.
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  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    naz1911 wrote: »
    Gents (and ladies), we may have stumbled across the first pve stf that actually helps "train" new pvpers. It is currently on tribble and boy does it make you work as a team. Its a new stf called "No win scenario" where you face 10 waves of enemies, each wave getting harder and harder. The first iteration of it was lame but the second version really does make you use pvp experience I.e teamwork, communication and cross healing.

    Give it a try guys. You might be pleasantly surprised.

    It might help a little, but the Borg STF's stand as concrete evidence that some players either can't or won't work as a team.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    reyan01 wrote:
    It might help a little, but the Borg STF's stand as concrete evidence that some players either can't or won't work as a team.

    The elite stf's compared to this are a walk in the park. No captain kirk would get past the 4th maybe 5th wave.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    Isn't that not an STF, but a fleet action?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    sophlogimo wrote:
    Isn't that not an STF, but a fleet action?

    It's both and neither, that special grey area that the Vault shuttle mission tends to fall in.

    Menkey was talking to me about this earlier on TS, apparently a Panda team has reached Wave 8 so far? I haven't gotten to team into it yet. and likely wont until the bulk of Season 6 hits the test server. What can we exepect? All I know if we face 10 levels of different faction types and must stop not only ourselves being killed but a transport too. Are the waves totally random each time or can we expect the KDF ever wave 3 for example?

    If the waves include feds & klinks, thats a golden oppitunity for acolade hunting for any who still need those.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    naz1911 wrote: »
    The elite stf's compared to this are a walk in the park. No captain kirk would get past the 4th maybe 5th wave.

    Very true - but that's what I mean. I have little doubt that there will be numerous players, probably of the rainbow-boat type, who will blatantly ignore the freighter that requires protection, will do nothing to heal team-mates and will blindly shoot at enemy ships.

    And those are the sort of players we will likely, more often than not, be teamed with. :o
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    It's both and neither, that special grey area that the Vault shuttle mission tends to fall in.

    Menkey was talking to me about this earlier on TS, apparently a Panda team has reached Wave 8 so far? I haven't gotten to team into it yet. and likely wont until the bulk of Season 6 hits the test server. What can we exepect? All I know if we face 10 levels of different faction types and must stop not only ourselves being killed but a transport too. Are the waves totally random each time or can we expect the KDF ever wave 3 for example?

    If the waves include feds & klinks, thats a golden oppitunity for acolade hunting for any who still need those.
    reyan01 wrote:
    Very true - but that's what I mean. I have little doubt that there will be numerous players, probably of the rainbow-boat type, who will blatantly ignore the freighter that requires protection, will do nothing to heal team-mates and will blindly shoot at enemy ships.

    And those are the sort of players we will likely, more often than not, be teamed with. :o

    Yes we reached wave 8 last night with massive amounts of teamwork. Still loads of room for improvement.

    Always do it private with known players to try and beat it to avoid the captain kirks.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    Yes, I figured that it could work like that with the requirement to keep a non-player ship alive.

    It suggests that the second part of my PvP training is the best one suited to train PvP, as crude as I could implement it with the Foundry.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    Finally! pve that is harder than PVP and a spot where I can P2W to my hearts content without being *****ed at!
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    wrote:
    Finally! pve that is harder than PVP and a spot where I can P2W to my hearts content without being *****ed at!
    Not so fast, P2Wer....

    We will create a chat channel "NoP2WScenario" and only allow access to people that don't use P2W to beat the scenario.

    Alternative Text for this post:

    Looks like we've found our *puts on sunglasses* Pay To Win Scenario...
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    naz1911 wrote: »
    Gents (and ladies), we may have stumbled across the first pve stf that actually helps "train" new pvpers. It is currently on tribble and boy does it make you work as a team. Its a new stf called "No win scenario" where you face 10 waves of enemies, each wave getting harder and harder. The first iteration of it was lame but the second version really does make you use pvp experience I.e teamwork, communication and cross healing.

    Give it a try guys. You might be pleasantly surprised.

    I have a funny feeling this mission will be nerfed down after the pvers play it and say they cant get past wave 3

    (yea i know i gave them too much credit for getting up to wave 3)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    hmmm interesting. I have grown tired of PvE champions that do not care for the STF special objective they just want the completion. Cryptic please do not nerf it and make the prize at the end awesome really awesome. Not some set maybe a special issue ship like a raptor that can actually turn, no I jest, but something exclusive that cannot be gotten except from this mission.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    cakuzma wrote: »
    I have a funny feeling this mission will be nerfed down after the pvers play it and say they cant get past wave 3

    (yea i know i gave them too much credit for getting up to wave 3)

    Bingo

    The Panda made who have tried this have excellent builds , very high levels of skill , very good levels of communication and corrdinated team play , aside from the emotional issues, this puts them very much in the top 1% players.

    Given what I have seen from the combat parser your average player is probably only about 30-40% of this in term of damage/healing as an individual and as the vast majority don't heal each other as a team even less effective.

    If the reaction to the STF's is anything to go by I think that the majority of the player bases mindset will not accept a mission they cannot complete or that defeats them so easily.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    hmmm interesting. I have grown tired of PvE champions that do not care for the STF special objective they just want the completion. Cryptic please do not nerf it and make the prize at the end awesome really awesome. Not some set maybe a special issue ship like a raptor that can actually turn, no I jest, but something exclusive that cannot be gotten except from this mission.

    There will be no specia prize at the end, as I understand it. Other than an accolade, at least. Gozer even stated that the rewards are staged so that it's more efficient to cancel the mission after 5 waves and start a new one. That may be problematic actually (griefer alert).
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    Covenanter wrote:
    Bingo

    If the reaction to the STF's is anything to go by I think that the majority of the player bases mindset will not accept a mission they cannot complete or that defeats them so easily.

    That's why they may have Pre-empted this by calling it "No-Win"
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    hmmm interesting. I have grown tired of PvE champions that do not care for the STF special objective they just want the completion. Cryptic please do not nerf it and make the prize at the end awesome really awesome. Not some set maybe a special issue ship like a raptor that can actually turn, no I jest, but something exclusive that cannot be gotten except from this mission.

    Second this motion
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    Covenanter wrote:
    Bingo

    The Panda made who have tried this have excellent builds , very high levels of skill , very good levels of communication and corrdinated team play , aside from the emotional issues, this puts them very much in the top 1% players.

    Given what I have seen from the combat parser your average player is probably only about 30-40% of this in term of damage/healing as an individual and as the vast majority don't heal each other as a team even less effective.

    If the reaction to the STF's is anything to go by I think that the majority of the player bases mindset will not accept a mission they cannot complete or that defeats them so easily.

    Lol at the emotional issues. Thanks for the praise
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    There will be no specia prize at the end, as I understand it. Other than an accolade, at least. Gozer even stated that the rewards are staged so that it's more efficient to cancel the mission after 5 waves and start a new one. That may be problematic actually (griefer alert).

    And this is the guy who is going to save PvP? I haven't been following so I'm sure I've missed the point. What was the logic behind this design?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    I wouldn't mind trying out NWS with the Pandas, but they've already got their A-team for PvE! :(
    Covenanter wrote:
    aside from the emotional issues

    You big meanie.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    The re-build of the “No-Win Scenario” is excellent!!!! It is exactly what I had hoped it would become; an actual challenge!

    If Cryptic Studios / Perfect World decide to tweak it again, to again make it easier, I’m going to most likely delete the game off of my computer and be done with Star Trek Online entirely. I’m sick and tired of content designed around the cognitive discipline of a twelve year old. Cryptic, please, throw us adults a bone, would you? Keep the “No Win Scenario” extremely difficult.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    You guys are doing a really good job of talking this up! Could someone describe, for those of us who haven't been to tribble to check recently, just what it is that makes this No Win Scenario so exciting? I have to admit that all I'm imagining is wave after wave of huge swarms with insane critical hits. Do these NPCs have healing and resistance skills? Do they stack damage skills? Can they use more than 4-5 bridge officer/captain skills like players?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    I really wish that the challenge will stay as it is. It is a no win scenario after all.

    But common sense tells me otherwise. The majority of players out there that run that rainbow boats and don't read chat will start crying about how stupid the mission is and how they can't pass wave 2, or how there is no "special reward" after that or something like that.
    And the crying will continue until eventually turning the no win scenario into a defensive version of Gorn Minefield or something like that.

    My hopes are that this doesn't happen, and the no win scenario remains a nice PvP trainer (hell I could use one), but if so, I don't see the mission being a very popular PUG.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    It's only doable to finish the whole mission with a properly set-up tactic and when all 5 players have the appropriate gear/set/abilities and have their ship fully finetuned.

    It's not going to work with a bit of add this here, replace a ship there. It does help a bit by trying to find a tactic that works better but that will get you only to wave 8 at most.


    But aside from that, its really a great test for the NoobVE'ers and RP'ers and I hope they also see that Tactic and teamwork is more fun then they might possible have thought, and hopefully this will be good for PvP in the long run.
    SteveHale wrote: »
    You guys are doing a really good job of talking this up! Could someone describe, for those of us who haven't been to tribble to check recently, just what it is that makes this No Win Scenario so exciting? I have to admit that all I'm imagining is wave after wave of huge swarms with insane critical hits. Do these NPCs have healing and resistance skills? Do they stack damage skills? Can they use more than 4-5 bridge officer/captain skills like players?

    The best part of it is, hale, despite what many people think, only the warheads are instapoppers. It is not like in the old STF's where u would just pop out of nowhere. With a bit of good movement and piloting you can overcome those missiles and kill them before they kill you.

    The only thing with the mission is though, they are still lifeless NPC's without intelligence, and while 1 species are perfectly doable to get to Wave 8, others will only let you come to Wave 5/6. (Subnuke spam and what not) thats why the scenario is totally out of balance in that aspect still.

    The best thing of the whole scenario again is that it shows that not every Sci ability is under powered now. We are talking about Sci being nerfed now, and that might be true of some aspects, but it also shows that Sci skills like Tractor Beam Repulsor, Subnuke, Viral Matrix, etc is still very effective for a success or failure, no matter it being used on our side or the NPC side.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    For those that missed it... Here is part of my post in the Tribble forum concerning the missions difficulty.

    I'm pretty happy with the Wave 01 - 05 difficulty at the moment. I doubt that part of the mission will change much if any before the mission goes to Holodeck.

    Waves 06 - 10 still need a little work at the moment, but any changes to those waves will increase difficulty. This part of the mission will only get harder not easier.

    Gozer


    Mission Difficulty –

    Originally, the mission was designed for a wider level range of players (level 20-50). The first few waves (Waves 01 – 04) of this mission were not that difficult by design (giving lower level players a chance to learn the mission). After the mission was created however it was decided to make this mission only available to level 50 players. With the change of this parameter the “warm_up” waves aren’t really needed. At level 50 we don’t really need the mission to hold your hand for the first few min.

    Wave_01 of the mission is now where Wave_04 of the mission was previously in the difficulty curve.

    Mission Difficulty / Expectations

    This mission is designed for two different types of teams.

    Wave_01 – Wave_05 – Random Pugs through the PVE Queue. The expectation is that the mission will take these types of teams 15-20 min and the rewards per wave will be adjusted to reflect this. Let me break it down a little further for you.

    Completing Wave_03 – Pretty much everyone who plays.
    Completing Wave_04 – 60- 70% of Random PUG groups on Holodeck.. ( Holodeck is different than Tribble, just FYI)
    Completing Wave_05 – 25-35% of Random PUG groups (basically Wave_05 is a little harder than your normal Elite STF Mission)

    While the mission is on Tribble I will be balancing it so that Waves_01-05 are as close to the metrics above as possible. It may take a few patches to get this exactly where we want it, but this is what you can expect by the time this mission goes to Holodeck.

    Wave_06 – Wave_10 – These waves are designed for pre-made teams and people that play together often. They exist to provide a challenge to players / teams who want that extra amount of challenge. If this is only 1% to 2 % of our current player base that is by design. These waves are not about the rewards, in fact it will be much better for the players (time-wise) to start again after Wave_05 if you are only going for the “Fleet Marks”. These last 5 waves are made specifically for pre-made / very experienced teams all using the best possible gear available.

    While the mission is on Tribble, I will be balancing it so that Waves_06 -07 are where even the most experienced players in STO start to have difficulty completing these Waves. A very good team who plays together often should have trouble getting past Wave_06 and few if any should get past Wave_07 while on Tribble. Again, this will probably take a few balance passes on Tribble to get the Mission where we want it, but this is what you can expect to see by the time it goes to Holodeck.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    This sounds frickin' sweet! I like the thought process and the planned continued tweaks. That's exactly what I hope we can look forward to seeing with PvP when works starts on that!

    Updating tribble now. Hopefully I'll get a chance to take a look for myself in the next few days.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    I'm a little disappointed that there doesn't seem to be a ground version even in the works. That'd make my day.

    Unless I missed such an announcement.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    Radkip wrote: »
    I'm a little disappointed that there doesn't seem to be a ground version even in the works. That'd make my day.

    Unless I missed such an announcement.

    And we'll only win if we sing Men of Harlech first.:cool:

    I can't wait to check this out though, although the few times I've jumped on Tribble recently there's been nobody about.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    My gawd what have they done ??

    If stfs arnt mind numbing boring as they are they go and make a fleet action ur not ment to complete ,,,,

    Space bar bash bash bash and more bash and bash again and again and again ave a bash for good luck ,,, extend extend ,, man this new akira is great for this bash bash bash extend ,,,,,


    Yawn
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    For those that missed it... Here is part of my post in the Tribble forum concerning the missions difficulty.

    I'm pretty happy with the Wave 01 - 05 difficulty at the moment. I doubt that part of the mission will change much if any before the mission goes to Holodeck.

    Waves 06 - 10 still need a little work at the moment, but any changes to those waves will increase difficulty. This part of the mission will only get harder not easier.

    Gozer


    Mission Difficulty –

    Originally, the mission was designed for a wider level range of players (level 20-50). The first few waves (Waves 01 – 04) of this mission were not that difficult by design (giving lower level players a chance to learn the mission). After the mission was created however it was decided to make this mission only available to level 50 players. With the change of this parameter the “warm_up” waves aren’t really needed. At level 50 we don’t really need the mission to hold your hand for the first few min.

    Wave_01 of the mission is now where Wave_04 of the mission was previously in the difficulty curve.

    Mission Difficulty / Expectations

    This mission is designed for two different types of teams.

    Wave_01 – Wave_05 – Random Pugs through the PVE Queue. The expectation is that the mission will take these types of teams 15-20 min and the rewards per wave will be adjusted to reflect this. Let me break it down a little further for you.

    Completing Wave_03 – Pretty much everyone who plays.
    Completing Wave_04 – 60- 70% of Random PUG groups on Holodeck.. ( Holodeck is different than Tribble, just FYI)
    Completing Wave_05 – 25-35% of Random PUG groups (basically Wave_05 is a little harder than your normal Elite STF Mission)

    While the mission is on Tribble I will be balancing it so that Waves_01-05 are as close to the metrics above as possible. It may take a few patches to get this exactly where we want it, but this is what you can expect by the time this mission goes to Holodeck.

    Wave_06 – Wave_10 – These waves are designed for pre-made teams and people that play together often. They exist to provide a challenge to players / teams who want that extra amount of challenge. If this is only 1% to 2 % of our current player base that is by design. These waves are not about the rewards, in fact it will be much better for the players (time-wise) to start again after Wave_05 if you are only going for the “Fleet Marks”. These last 5 waves are made specifically for pre-made / very experienced teams all using the best possible gear available.

    While the mission is on Tribble, I will be balancing it so that Waves_06 -07 are where even the most experienced players in STO start to have difficulty completing these Waves. A very good team who plays together often should have trouble getting past Wave_06 and few if any should get past Wave_07 while on Tribble. Again, this will probably take a few balance passes on Tribble to get the Mission where we want it, but this is what you can expect to see by the time it goes to Holodeck.

    Gozer, we reached wave 9 last night thanks to some of the best healing tanking i've seen from an individual. Proof, I'm sure you've been big brother on this some how but MT has a screen grab. Please see our suggestions on the official thread and can we have a response to them.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    Just out of curiosity: Why is this in the PvP forums? Panda hax turn PvE into PvP?
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