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Regenerative or High Capacity shields for sci ships and carriers?

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
edited June 2012 in PvP Gameplay
What is better for your average science ship or carrier: A high capacity or a high regeneration shield?


Personally, I think a high cap shield is superior, because capacity is "saved up regeneration" that is available as fast as you need it (if you use Tactical Team to redistribute). By contrast, a regenerative shield's native shield healing is usually not high enough to compete with the use of a few sci Boff slots for recharging the shields.

Now. I know there are many people who believe the opposite: "Regenerative shields would be better for a sci ship or carrier because the native healing just gives you that extra shield heal you need, and in any longer battle, you will not reach the cap of a high capacity shield using your shield heals anyway. Also, a sci ship or carrier has a better capacity to begin with, due to the higher shield modifier."

What is your opinion on the matter, and how have you come to it?
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    If your running high shield power and high aux you should be running regenerative shields. High regen rate plus the resistance combined with transfer shield strength and emergency power to shields makes for a tough shield
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    You've already got my piece on this.

    And a supplement point. Check that other thread :p
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    how about both?

    the maco shield is a great balance of both with a passive 10% reduction of all energy damage...(which is kind of like a 10% cap bonus)

    and then augment that on a sci ship or carrier with the capacity or regen consoles.....to fit your playstyle.

    have fun kill bad guys!

    -horizon
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    The problem with that is, the + regen consoles are Terrible, not just bad but Terrible.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    nu uh mav. i tested it. instead of every 6 sec regen its every 5 sec. and 3 consoles is every 4. over time (which is what regen shielding is all about) it can be pretty cool.... that is a 50% increase in overall shield regens. from 10 a minute, to 15 a minute.

    gotta have that tac team on standby tho, you'll get spiked.

    (btw, this is all old data, maybe......5-6 patches ago. but i think it still holds....)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    Thing is, a Shield Power console will do the same thing for you, and it will boost your passive SR. And shield power consoles are Terrible right now at their meager +3.5

    Unless you are within 3 points of max shield power a shield power console is always going to be better than the shield regen console.

    Now if you are pegging max -constantly- then it might get more interesting. That being said however, it's regen is still going to be vastly inferior to a Regen Shield's regeneration rate. (let alone one with say 3 of those consoles, and one Generator, running within 3 of max shield power) Also, when Extends is put into the equation, that 10 percent extra SR from Maco is almost irrelevant. (as you are going to be pegging max SR anyway)

    Unfortunately however the lolcryptic turned them into sci consoles, which means they compete with Particle Generators consoles which are very handy if you are running TBR, or PSW3. (Or even GW if you are a tac) On a -typical- carrier however they make a better choice, since carriers really aren't offense boats.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    hrm, idunno mav.....i think someone should throw some testing time back into this after the next patch. my experiences with the regen consoles are about average. and yet your experience seems to be that they had little to no impact.

    and no, they sure arent on par with the offensively attuned sci consoles....

    but to my point....you are correct....since you should be pegging 125 shield power when in defensive mode therefore maxing your resists anyway.....getting more regen out of them is not a bad way to go.

    damn game. thank goodness there are still a few thinkers around.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    as one of the older sci players in the game, maco all the way. unless you want to run a 4 piece borg set.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    Cov and Reg

    All depends on build, pug, premade, and the skill of the player...

    Nothing is set in stone.

    I will say this, as a Carrier pilot in my opinion you have 2 options.

    REG if you want to beat 99% of the players in game, nothing you can’t shield tank until one of the 1% of STO vets that has SNB or A tac captain that has been cloaked watching your rotation. Either of the 2 escort will spike a reg carrier to quick for a reaction or take a huge chunk of a carrier leaving it vulnerable for another pass while the captain reset his alpha.

    COV YOu get supreme alpha denial but leaves you a little weaker than reg solo, as others have said before multi escorts will out dps you attempt to stay alive, this might take awhile but without support you will eventually die a slow grinding death.
    ...........Here is the 2 exception- Premades: Why, with the consistent cross heals your want the max amount of shield HP so cross healing doesn’t top off. Giving the opponent more shield hp to get through; And BORG 3 set with COV shields as a eng captain, is the other exception. Why, you have enough res and shield reg you want the MAX amount of cap to top of that 16-20k shields.

    That my advice, Good Luck
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    maicake716 wrote:
    as one of the older sci players in the game, maco all the way. unless you want to run a 4 piece borg set.

    In fact, doing some drydock tests, I must agree with this. Using one more field generator, I can almos get the same capacitiy as with 2 field generators and a paratrinic shield. And then adding the 10% resistance against energy weapons... This alone will help a lot. Of course, true combat tests (first PvE, then pvP) will show if this line of reasoning is correct - after all, I've sacrificed one neutronium slot (effectively 8% resistance) to be able to support the additional field generator (moved the borg console to engineering). But 8% vs. 10% should be a no-brainer. In theory.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    Hull and Shield Damage Reduction and hull resists are difficult to compare here, especially iwth the way shield resists stack multiplicatively. 10 % may also just be 8 % end value depending on the other resists you have. If you got 20 % SDR from shield power and 20 % SDR from EptS, you have a damage reduction of (36 %), adding 10 % SDR from MAKO would be 42.4 %, e.g a bonus of 6.4 %.

    But on the other hand, these values are still not comparable. Imagine getting 5 % SDR up from 90 %. 90 % means enemies need to deal 10x as much damage for the same effect against you when you don'T have any resists, and 95 % means they need 20x as much damage. While when you get 5 % extra then your enemies only need to deal about ~5,2 % more damage to negate that.

    The practical value of any specific "absolute" resist bonus is dependent on the resist range you are already in.

    Oh, and isn't the MACO shield also Resilient? That means it also has another 5 % damage reduction that directly helps your hull as long as shields are up. This means as long as you can maintain your shields, it's unlikely you ever miss those 8 % resists, since you got effectively x 50 % resists for hull damage.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    When I was running the Paratrinic before I learned to properly distribute and heal my shields I was squishy. I tried the Numiri Regen Shield and was even more squishy. I learned to be a little bit harder target with TSS, EPtS, and Sci Team.

    In battle you'll never have time for the regen property to make a difference. Even a Numiri Regen shield is just too slow to make up for the lower cap, and one EPtS I fills your shields anyway. So you go from damaged to healed to damaged to healed.

    The extra Cap and the 5% absorption of the shields I use now are far more important than any shield regen.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    I've always been under the impression that a higher cap is better for team play because it makes your "glass" bigger for your teammates to fill up with TSS, Sci team 3 and such. And maybe you'll luck out and the Maco bug will come back someday.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    nu uh mav. i tested it. instead of every 6 sec regen its every 5 sec. and 3 consoles is every 4. over time (which is what regen shielding is all about) it can be pretty cool.... that is a 50% increase in overall shield regens. from 10 a minute, to 15 a minute.

    gotta have that tac team on standby tho, you'll get spiked.

    (btw, this is all old data, maybe......5-6 patches ago. but i think it still holds....)

    I do not believe the regen console stacks anymore... maybe i'm wrong... idk... so many changes
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    Swtiched back to my Long-Range Science Retro a few days back - use the classic MACO shield + Borg everything else setup, which works a treat.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    In my LRSV i use only maco shield, plus TSS and EPtS and 3 field generators. This is the only way to resist a while to several enemies (usualy in STF elite after using GW).

    Regeneration is important, but in the middle of the battle you need resistance first.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    I use the maco shields on my carrier. They have high capacity, pretty good regen and are resilent, whats not to like there? I also use the borg deflector, engines and console, the set gives hull and shield regen buffs more often than u would think while the maco shield has power conduit to increase all power levels. If u want to tank i recomend this set up. If the regen or cap isnt high enough for your liking use some shield emitter consoles or field generators. If the question was purely on capacity or regen shields, capacity all the way for me.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    Paratrinic Shield

    :)

    kkthxchnk
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    Hull and Shield Damage Reduction and hull resists are difficult to compare here, especially iwth the way shield resists stack multiplicatively. 10 % may also just be 8 % end value depending on the other resists you have. If you got 20 % SDR from shield power and 20 % SDR from EptS, you have a damage reduction of (36 %), adding 10 % SDR from MAKO would be 42.4 %, e.g a bonus of 6.4 %.

    But on the other hand, these values are still not comparable. Imagine getting 5 % SDR up from 90 %. 90 % means enemies need to deal 10x as much damage for the same effect against you when you don'T have any resists, and 95 % means they need 20x as much damage. While when you get 5 % extra then your enemies only need to deal about ~5,2 % more damage to negate that.

    The practical value of any specific "absolute" resist bonus is dependent on the resist range you are already in.

    Oh, and isn't the MACO shield also Resilient? That means it also has another 5 % damage reduction that directly helps your hull as long as shields are up. This means as long as you can maintain your shields, it's unlikely you ever miss those 8 % resists, since you got effectively x 50 % resists for hull damage.

    MACO 10% + 5% absorb = 15% + 10 stacks of Power conduit = about 15-20%? Pretty good for a shield

    Still kinda worrysome that so many (long term) pvp'ers still do not take any consideration of resistance or SDR into account.

    :)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    Covariant Shield Array
    SCI - Emitter Array + Field Generator
    ENG - Ablative Hull Armor, Tetraburnium Hull Armor, Parametallic Hull Plating

    Never fails.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    Paratrinic Shield

    :)

    kkthxchnk

    Why are you so trollicious?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    shelev wrote:
    Why are you so trollicious?

    I'm not. Its a good shield until u can get the MACO one...

    kkthx
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    MT does not troll.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    MT does not troll.

    "MT" aka "Maximum Troll"

    Truestorybro!
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    Paratrinic Shield

    :)

    kkthxchnk

    its a cap 3, reg-1 cov. if you were around when the mk X cap 3 cov was available for marks you were better off using that. but its pretty good if you have nothing better.
    Covariant Shield Array
    SCI - Emitter Array + Field Generator
    ENG - Ablative Hull Armor, Tetraburnium Hull Armor, Parametallic Hull Plating

    Never fails.

    strong tet, plas, pol and antiproton defense but low end phaser and disrupter defense? thanks to the proc, phasers are most likely to hit your hull... i'd prefer Diburnium, Ablative, and Parametallic, or 3 Neutronium for the kinetic and all energy resist too.


    in my experience, its heals that does most of your shield repairing, the actual regeneration plays a much smaller part. use a cov if you have enough heals to keep your shields healthy, or if you want to hit and run with the best chance of survival. also, nothing lets you live through an alpha like a cov, regardless if you can keep it healed in the long run. its like an insurance policy against oneshots, its hard to justify not useing them in any situation. only the lol maco is the exception really, theres no reason not to use the maco, khg, omega or borg shield, they are simply the best. the KHG is a cap4, reg 1, i might like that thing more then a maco, on my klink cruiser users.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    how about both?

    the maco shield is a great balance of both with a passive 10% reduction of all energy damage...(which is kind of like a 10% cap bonus)

    and then augment that on a sci ship or carrier with the capacity or regen consoles.....to fit your playstyle.

    have fun kill bad guys!

    -horizon

    I had actually sent CaptainHorizon this previously, but just wanted to expand a bit on what Mustrum posted.


    Assuming 125 Power for 35% resistance, let's add the following:

    EPTS 1 = 18% (0.18)

    MACO 10% resistance bonus = (0.1) *ignoring plasma

    Resistance = 1-((1-0.35)*(1-0.1)*(1-0.18)) = 52%

    vs.

    Again, 125 power.

    EPTS 1 = 18% (0.18)

    Resistance = 1-((1-0.35)*(1-0.18)) = 46.7%


    So a gain of 5.3%, if my math is correct.

    Which is still very good, it's still 5% more on top of cutting all bleed-through in half, and power conduit link.



    MACO 10% + 5% absorb = 15% + 10 stacks of Power conduit = about 15-20%? Pretty good for a shield

    Still kinda worrysome that so many (long term) pvp'ers still do not take any consideration of resistance or SDR into account.

    :)


    AFAIK the absorption only affects bleed-through to hull (and is still fantastic, cutting it in half).

    As for the rest, the amount of extra resistance you get from a full 5 stacks of power conduit will change depending on what else you are running (EPTS, TSS or ESS tossed on you) as well as what that extra +10 power brings your shield power total to.


    EDIT: Ok, this prompted me to finally finish this that I had half done for a while.


    MACO & OMEGA


    I don't fully understand how EPTS functions in combination with a Shield's native regen ability, so I've left that out.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    thanks for the numbers ultimatum,

    i believe there is still wiggle room in anyone's decision to go with either regen or covariant. that maco is just such a nice overall shield. limiting bleedthu is a great bonus with resilient.

    depending on playstyle i think players really should give them all a fair try.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    I'm not. Its a good shield until u can get the MACO one...

    kkthx



    MT stop tolling, you have plenty of reasons to lie.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    Hm. I'd say: If you cannot say why you think the Paratrinic Shield is not good, then don't call others troll for saying it is.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    sophlogimo wrote:
    Hm. I'd say: If you cannot say why you think the Paratrinic Shield is not good, then don't call others troll for saying it is.

    Paratrinic shields are a Cov Capx3 (of same level) but with worse regen.
    How much explaining does this need?
    For leveling purposes they can be useful, but if you are talking end game there are shield with better/equal cap, AND better regen.
    The shields provide no extra bonus, no procs, no resists, no nothing.

    How about you state why you would use a Paratrinic Shield instead of a Cov Capx3, let alone a set shield with bonuses? Burden of proof right back at ya!
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