I would like to have a short discussion with regard to how the current sub-system targeting abilities work in PVP and how they might be improved upon to not only make sub-system targeting a viable option for all ships to toy around with, but to also indirectly make Engineering Team a viable option as a counter to sub-system targeting; which is an engineering de-buff.
Currently sub-system targeting drains power from a targeted sub-system, be it Shield, Weapons, Engines or Auxiliary. This has the effect of making abilities and weapons reliant on subsystem power levels less effective when the sub-system is at lower power levels. This effect is however extremely temporary and easily overcome by the many ways to increase power levels, passive power drain resistances and engineering team currently being able to repair any sub-system that is disabled Therefore, I would like to tweak all sub-system targeting abilities to do something similar but perhaps better suited.
I think that the purpose of sub-system targeting is to diminish or weaken the sub-system being targeted. A de-buff in more simplified language. However, as stated above, draining the sub-system power level is perhaps not the best way to do this. In fact, I believe that the sub-system targeting ability should in fact de-buff the sub-system itself in the best way possible; by affecting what skills buffs the sub-system to begin with and what abilities relies upon the sub-system.
Therefore, I propose the following changes and would like you to share your thoughts. Note: all these new de-buff effects will clear immediately with Engineering Team.
Target Shields:
- X% Starship Shield Emitters for 15 seconds. (Reduces Shield Healing effectiveness)
- X% Starship Shield regeneration for 30 seconds (Reduces five ticks of shield regeneration)
- X% Starship Shield Performance for 15 seconds. (Reduces extra power given to sub-system from skill bonus, if Skill bonus goes into the negative from this de-buff, power is subtracted from the sub-system accordingly)
Target Weapons:
- X% Starship Energy Weapons for 15 seconds (Reduces Energy Weapon Damage. De-buff cannot go below zero)
- X% Starship Energy Weapon Performance for 15 seconds. (Reduces extra power given to the sub-system from the skill bonus, if Skill bonus goes into the negative from this de-buff, power is subtracted from the sub-system accordingly)
20% Chance to disable a single random weapon for 5 seconds (Disables weapon for a complete cycle)
Target Engines:
- X% Starship Warp Core Efficiency for 15 seconds. (Reduces Skill bonus effect. De-buff cannot go below zero)
- X% Starship Warp Core Potential for 15 seconds. (Reduces skill bonus effect. De-buff cannot go below zero)
- X% Starship Engine Performance for 15 seconds. (Reduces extra power given to sub-system from skill bonus, if Skill bonus goes into the negative from this de-buff, power is subtracted from the sub-system accordingly skill)
20% chance to disable engines for 5 seconds. (Drains all power from Engine Sub-System)
Target Auxiliary:
-X% Starship Auxiliary Performance for 15 seconds. (Reduces extra power given to sub-system from skill bonus, if Skill bonus goes into the negative from this de-buff, power is subtracted from the sub-system accordingly)
30% chance to reduce Auxiliary power level by 50% for 15 seconds
10% chance to disable Auxiliary sub-system. (Drains all power from Auxiliary Sub-system)
Remove the PHASERs inherent subsystem targeting and stead give it a bonus when used with the BSST skills.
Would the current Phaser PROC be broken with these proposed changes in your opinion Roach? Furthermore, do you even agree with the direction Im trying to go here with the proposed changes?
Would the current Phaser PROC be broken with these proposed changes in your opinion Roach? Furthermore, do you even agree with the direction Im trying to go here with the proposed changes?
I think the Phaser/proc is broken now and the PHASERs current proc would be way OP with the % chance of shutdown of these ideas.
Otherwise I'm indifferent as to the form your ideas take and see no upfront issue with them, though the 20%20%/30% chances may be a bit high.
In Star Trek we never saw the Phasers randomly disable a ships system.
We did see many times when the Captain asked for a shot to disable a system and the Phasers where considered very accurate at such a feat but did not do so by fact of existance.
Disable percentages are fine where there at. I do agree with you that the power drain is way off now though. What about increasing the systems cd timers. So for shields, any shield ability including shield batteries would go on a 20% longer cd for btss1 up to 40% for btss3. It would make both engy teams and batteries a lot more important to have handy and definately would add some dynamics as to when you might use an emergency power or a battery.
But I agree with Roach. If Phaser Procs stay the way they are it'd be op. The phaser proc should change. And if you were gonna recommend a change like this to subsystem targeting I'd want to see a change to all weapons procs across the board. Now I wouldn't exactly know what to suggest to replace each weapons type proc with but with your idea of subsystem targeting I'd say that it'd be a step in the right direction. Excellent Idea. I feel more sciencey already!
So couldn't I just always be running an engineering team and have immunity? I'm not sure where this is going. Some of the mess we are in is due to Captains flying around in other captains ships. So sure an engineer in an escort has far more ways to resist and negate the current subsystem targeting. And with the new system they still will with miracle worker tossed in there. And then there's the power level Doff joy. And Dual system batteries. Oh where does it end?
Anyways to a non engineer in an escort this new system becomes slightly more onerous than it was before. Cruisers will enjoy their new found ability to clear the effects of subsystem targeting. Science ships will still be sad. I mean if you're just spamming out a rotation of targeting. If you're watching your target or being prepared for a situation where targeting a particular subsystem will be critical, its fine the way it is. There's no real reason to make it harder on escorts than it is already, and at the same time easier on cruisers.
I like the idea of the different de-buffs. Just not so keen on the way we currently clear them, or having engineering team clear them.
Hey our power conduits are blown!! Here pump more power through it!!
Hey our power conduits are blown!! Here miracle it all better!!
If captains had a choice to carry a ships device that was conceptualized as a store of emergency supplies of sensitive ships components that is used to repair subsystems I'd feel better about the entire thing. And make that the only way to "fix' the damage faster. You can't emergency power a broken system, it just leaks out. You can't wish it better without parts. You wait it out or use emergency repair kits.
Of course that makes sub system targeting very strong.
Of course I don't have a Science character so I'm impartial..... >.> o..o
Cheers and happy flying! Keep those science dreams coming!
hmm... In my opinion, the current BTSx skills are working fine. Maybe even too fine.
when you come up againt a team running a heavy BTS setup, maybe combined with a tykens rift, a VM or two, (and worst case, some sucking drones) you can be effectively shut down completely. You pop your ET, and live 5 seconds, and then you're dead.
I would be OK with BTS becoming more effective, if they would only put a limit in, that would make it impossible to loose more than one subsystem at once. Like, if one subsystem is down, all other systems can't drop below 25.
Out of curiuosity, is this change to Beam Target abilities an after thought becuase so mnay are using the Beam targte abilities currently in PvP?
It was not an afterthought at all. In fact, my opinion on the Beam Target Subsystem abilities is that it is rather a weak and pathetic ability to use; given how many ways there were to counter the power draining effect and for the fact that the sub-system shut down is already clearable by engineering team.
The re-work of this particular ability had more to do with what would make more common sense game-play and lore wise. Personally, I dont really understand the power drain feature of this ability. It is negated by passive resistances and the overwhelming ability to increase power levels.
It was not an afterthought at all. In fact, my opinion on the Beam Target Subsystem abilities is that it is rather a weak and pathetic ability to use(...).
All drain abilities are weak and pathetic on their own. It's the combination of multiple drains that is too effective. Especially when you include carrier pets and universal consoles.
It was not an afterthought at all. In fact, my opinion on the Beam Target Subsystem abilities is that it is rather a weak and pathetic ability to use.............
Well, I was curiuos. Saw a lot of successful BTsS attacks this weekend in use in Ker'rat lately.
Of course they where mainly of the Bxxx3 variety.
I'm not a big fan of OP's solution per se, I think it's possibly too dramatic of a change, but it would be nice if BTSS saw a little bit of sprucing up. I wouldn't say it's ineffective in its current form, I use BTSS as it comes as part of my science vessel in combination with other science power drains (Tyken's Rift being my personal favorite), but BTSS by itself suffers from general uselessness (it's really only effective when you pair it up with other exotic abilities). Power drains are too easy to counter unless you really stack their effects.
That said, if BTSS gets some sort of a boost to make it useful on its own, that boost needs to not be so powerful that it makes stacking with existing gameplay synergies overwhelming. Someone else on the thread floated the idea of BTSS inflicting Cooldown timer bumps to systems related targeted subsystems (I've gone temporarily derpy and can't find the specific post now, apologies for not being able to cite that author) and I like that idea. Target weapons, and you inflict timer bumps on either Cannons, Beam Weapons or Torpedoes; target auxiliary and you might inflict a timer bump to transporters (the Crew system timer), Emitters or Sensors; target Shields and it may bump the Deflector Field, Deflector Dish or Shields cooldown timers. It sort of becomes like a targeted effect of Subnucleonic Beam.
Subsystem disabling in the gameplay (i.e. taking a subsystem completely offline via a Disable effect) takes a lot of effort and good timing to utilize to capitalize on in STO, but from what I understand that's an intentional move in the Devs part, and it is a pretty powerful effect. (Having your shield system complete disabled tends to be utterly disastrous, for instance.) So I understand why they keep the "toggle off" system effects very short and limited. I would like to see BTSS have a bit more bite to it in its own right, and Cooldown Timer effects seem to be the best way to give it that without making them synergize with other powers in an overwhelming fashion.
As for the phaser proc? Well, all of the energy weapons procs except for antiprotons and possibly polarons seem ineffectual and negligible. (I say polarons might be decent as-is because my VA science ship theoretically has a 15-30% chance [2.5% x 3 shots per array x 2 arrays or 4 arrays broadside] to inflict drain just with the weapons fire volley, and with my skill and equipment the drain is -41 power to all subsystems before Power Insulator resistance.) Phasers have never been all that effective because the system disable lasts three seconds or less when it proc's. I think it would be nicer if the phasers proc'ed a Cooldown timer bump to a random system instead. Not sure where that leaves disruptors and tetryons in the grand scheme of proc effectivity...
All drain abilities are weak and pathetic on their own. It's the combination of multiple drains that is too effective. Especially when you include carrier pets and universal consoles.
Of course, I know this already. My motive with regard to the suggested changes was to remove the Beam Target Subsystem abilities from the power drain abilities pool, and place them into the counter and science de-buff abilities pool. Take for example my proposed change to how Beam Target Shields works below:
Target Shields:
- X% Starship Shield Emitters for 15 seconds. (Reduces Shield Healing effectiveness)
- X% Starship Shield regeneration for 30 seconds (Reduces five ticks of shield regeneration)
- X% Starship Shield Performance for 15 seconds. (Reduces extra power given to sub-system from skill bonus, if Skill bonus goes into the negative from this de-buff, power is subtracted from the sub-system accordingly)
Now instead using this ability to complement Science Power drain-builds, I have opened up the viability of this Bridge Officer Ability to other classes beyond just the Science Vessel because the science de-buffs on Starship Shield Emitters, and Starship Shield Performance will affect the heal abilities. Also, indirectly the hit on Starship Shield Performance might even constitute a small power drain on the sub-system if the de-buff places the skill bonus into the negative. So why does this change make the Beam Target Ability more viable? Particularly with the change to the Beam Target Shields, reducing any opponents ability to heal shields is useful regardless of what ship class you are flying.
Take for example an Escort, imagine if you will an Escort does a hit and run on a cruiser but this time on the run the Escort uses one of his/her useless Ensign Tactical Bridge Officers and an aft beam array to target the enemy vessels shields; thereby on his/her next pass the enemy wont be able to heal his/her shields quite as much or as well.
Why not just change the BTSS abilities straight debuffs?
Target shields, do slightly boosted damage to shields and reduce the targets shield resistences.
Target engines, reduce there speed and turn rate.
Target weapons, reduce there accuracy or rof, maybe abit of both.
Target aux, counters RSP, possibly a buff eating ability. Not really sure its abit of a toughy with how "multifaceted" aux is.
Have there effects last longer with higher AUX or something, to help reinforce there science slant.
Have there be a nice visible graphic for the debuffs, right now the BTSS skills don't show much unless you proc a full disable like "oops there went a shield facing" or something like that.
I'll reference how the attack patterns apply there little target reticule thing.
Why not just change the BTSS abilities straight debuffs?
Target shields, do slightly boosted damage to shields and reduce the targets shield resistences.
Target engines, reduce there speed and turn rate.
Target weapons, reduce there accuracy or rof, maybe abit of both.
Target aux, counters RSP, possibly a buff eating ability. Not really sure its abit of a toughy with how "multifaceted" aux is.
Have there effects last longer with higher AUX or something, to help reinforce there science slant.
Have there be a nice visible graphic for the debuffs, right now the BTSS skills don't show much unless you proc a full disable like "oops there went a shield facing" or something like that.
I'll reference how the attack patterns apply there little target reticule thing.
While even more simplified than what I came up with isnt what youre saying exactly what I did? I mean, I re-worked the ability to apply specific strait forward de-buffs!
I totally agree! I really wish there were some AWESOME VFX results when using these abilities. For example: maybe have the engines electrify and spark when BTE is used, or the weapons spark from BTW or the lights on your ship dim or go out when auxiliary is hit or gaps show up in the Shield FX when the emitters are hit.
Ok well joke aside it wasn't very straight forward, it was reduce this by this %, this other thing by another percent, oh and by the way have a % chance to disable.
You just need it simple.
BTE1 reduce turn/movement rate by 30%
BTE2 reduce turn/movement rate by 50%
BTE3 reduce turn/movement rate by 80%
We don't need fancy reduce 4 different things by varying percentages, with a proc chance to disable, and all this jazz.
Keep it simple, effective, and to the point. The largest issue with the game from a noobs point of view is we have 5+ different things effecting shields in some way... I mean sure its trek to talk about shield emitters and TRIBBLE but darn it all we need more just straight up "this does this, by X amount" kinda stuff.
Comments
Would the current Phaser PROC be broken with these proposed changes in your opinion Roach? Furthermore, do you even agree with the direction Im trying to go here with the proposed changes?
I think the Phaser/proc is broken now and the PHASERs current proc would be way OP with the % chance of shutdown of these ideas.
Otherwise I'm indifferent as to the form your ideas take and see no upfront issue with them, though the 20%20%/30% chances may be a bit high.
In Star Trek we never saw the Phasers randomly disable a ships system.
We did see many times when the Captain asked for a shot to disable a system and the Phasers where considered very accurate at such a feat but did not do so by fact of existance.
PvP is almost at the point of fubar so it doesn't matter. This will be my last negative post about pvp.
-Captain Glitch-
Anyways to a non engineer in an escort this new system becomes slightly more onerous than it was before. Cruisers will enjoy their new found ability to clear the effects of subsystem targeting. Science ships will still be sad. I mean if you're just spamming out a rotation of targeting. If you're watching your target or being prepared for a situation where targeting a particular subsystem will be critical, its fine the way it is. There's no real reason to make it harder on escorts than it is already, and at the same time easier on cruisers.
I like the idea of the different de-buffs. Just not so keen on the way we currently clear them, or having engineering team clear them.
Hey our power conduits are blown!! Here pump more power through it!!
Hey our power conduits are blown!! Here miracle it all better!!
If captains had a choice to carry a ships device that was conceptualized as a store of emergency supplies of sensitive ships components that is used to repair subsystems I'd feel better about the entire thing. And make that the only way to "fix' the damage faster. You can't emergency power a broken system, it just leaks out. You can't wish it better without parts. You wait it out or use emergency repair kits.
Of course that makes sub system targeting very strong.
Of course I don't have a Science character so I'm impartial..... >.> o..o
Cheers and happy flying! Keep those science dreams coming!
when you come up againt a team running a heavy BTS setup, maybe combined with a tykens rift, a VM or two, (and worst case, some sucking drones) you can be effectively shut down completely. You pop your ET, and live 5 seconds, and then you're dead.
I would be OK with BTS becoming more effective, if they would only put a limit in, that would make it impossible to loose more than one subsystem at once. Like, if one subsystem is down, all other systems can't drop below 25.
It was not an afterthought at all. In fact, my opinion on the Beam Target Subsystem abilities is that it is rather a weak and pathetic ability to use; given how many ways there were to counter the power draining effect and for the fact that the sub-system shut down is already clearable by engineering team.
The re-work of this particular ability had more to do with what would make more common sense game-play and lore wise. Personally, I dont really understand the power drain feature of this ability. It is negated by passive resistances and the overwhelming ability to increase power levels.
All drain abilities are weak and pathetic on their own. It's the combination of multiple drains that is too effective. Especially when you include carrier pets and universal consoles.
That said, if BTSS gets some sort of a boost to make it useful on its own, that boost needs to not be so powerful that it makes stacking with existing gameplay synergies overwhelming. Someone else on the thread floated the idea of BTSS inflicting Cooldown timer bumps to systems related targeted subsystems (I've gone temporarily derpy and can't find the specific post now, apologies for not being able to cite that author) and I like that idea. Target weapons, and you inflict timer bumps on either Cannons, Beam Weapons or Torpedoes; target auxiliary and you might inflict a timer bump to transporters (the Crew system timer), Emitters or Sensors; target Shields and it may bump the Deflector Field, Deflector Dish or Shields cooldown timers. It sort of becomes like a targeted effect of Subnucleonic Beam.
Subsystem disabling in the gameplay (i.e. taking a subsystem completely offline via a Disable effect) takes a lot of effort and good timing to utilize to capitalize on in STO, but from what I understand that's an intentional move in the Devs part, and it is a pretty powerful effect. (Having your shield system complete disabled tends to be utterly disastrous, for instance.) So I understand why they keep the "toggle off" system effects very short and limited. I would like to see BTSS have a bit more bite to it in its own right, and Cooldown Timer effects seem to be the best way to give it that without making them synergize with other powers in an overwhelming fashion.
As for the phaser proc? Well, all of the energy weapons procs except for antiprotons and possibly polarons seem ineffectual and negligible. (I say polarons might be decent as-is because my VA science ship theoretically has a 15-30% chance [2.5% x 3 shots per array x 2 arrays or 4 arrays broadside] to inflict drain just with the weapons fire volley, and with my skill and equipment the drain is -41 power to all subsystems before Power Insulator resistance.) Phasers have never been all that effective because the system disable lasts three seconds or less when it proc's. I think it would be nicer if the phasers proc'ed a Cooldown timer bump to a random system instead. Not sure where that leaves disruptors and tetryons in the grand scheme of proc effectivity...
Of course, I know this already. My motive with regard to the suggested changes was to remove the Beam Target Subsystem abilities from the power drain abilities pool, and place them into the counter and science de-buff abilities pool. Take for example my proposed change to how Beam Target Shields works below:
Target Shields:
- X% Starship Shield Emitters for 15 seconds. (Reduces Shield Healing effectiveness)
- X% Starship Shield regeneration for 30 seconds (Reduces five ticks of shield regeneration)
- X% Starship Shield Performance for 15 seconds. (Reduces extra power given to sub-system from skill bonus, if Skill bonus goes into the negative from this de-buff, power is subtracted from the sub-system accordingly)
Now instead using this ability to complement Science Power drain-builds, I have opened up the viability of this Bridge Officer Ability to other classes beyond just the Science Vessel because the science de-buffs on Starship Shield Emitters, and Starship Shield Performance will affect the heal abilities. Also, indirectly the hit on Starship Shield Performance might even constitute a small power drain on the sub-system if the de-buff places the skill bonus into the negative. So why does this change make the Beam Target Ability more viable? Particularly with the change to the Beam Target Shields, reducing any opponents ability to heal shields is useful regardless of what ship class you are flying.
Take for example an Escort, imagine if you will an Escort does a hit and run on a cruiser but this time on the run the Escort uses one of his/her useless Ensign Tactical Bridge Officers and an aft beam array to target the enemy vessels shields; thereby on his/her next pass the enemy wont be able to heal his/her shields quite as much or as well.
Target shields, do slightly boosted damage to shields and reduce the targets shield resistences.
Target engines, reduce there speed and turn rate.
Target weapons, reduce there accuracy or rof, maybe abit of both.
Target aux, counters RSP, possibly a buff eating ability. Not really sure its abit of a toughy with how "multifaceted" aux is.
Have there effects last longer with higher AUX or something, to help reinforce there science slant.
Have there be a nice visible graphic for the debuffs, right now the BTSS skills don't show much unless you proc a full disable like "oops there went a shield facing" or something like that.
I'll reference how the attack patterns apply there little target reticule thing.
While even more simplified than what I came up with isnt what youre saying exactly what I did? I mean, I re-worked the ability to apply specific strait forward de-buffs!
I totally agree! I really wish there were some AWESOME VFX results when using these abilities. For example: maybe have the engines electrify and spark when BTE is used, or the weapons spark from BTW or the lights on your ship dim or go out when auxiliary is hit or gaps show up in the Shield FX when the emitters are hit.
LOL!
Ok well joke aside it wasn't very straight forward, it was reduce this by this %, this other thing by another percent, oh and by the way have a % chance to disable.
You just need it simple.
BTE1 reduce turn/movement rate by 30%
BTE2 reduce turn/movement rate by 50%
BTE3 reduce turn/movement rate by 80%
We don't need fancy reduce 4 different things by varying percentages, with a proc chance to disable, and all this jazz.
Keep it simple, effective, and to the point. The largest issue with the game from a noobs point of view is we have 5+ different things effecting shields in some way... I mean sure its trek to talk about shield emitters and TRIBBLE but darn it all we need more just straight up "this does this, by X amount" kinda stuff.