Without new blood PvP fails. We need to attract more players, not give them more excuses to avoid PvP.
The incentive to PvP isn't the gear, it never was. Nor will gear specific to PvP attract players who aren't interested in PvP. You may get some farmers to grind out the sets but, bonus achieved, they go away never to return.
Many players come to PvP curious, only to get blown away and never return. Instead of spending dev time on gimmicks, spend those same dev hours on balance, a working matchmaker system, and a method to bend the learning curve so that new PvP'ers aren't insta-ganked.
Adding more gear to separate the PvP player from the casual player will have the opposite of the intended effect: it will create in the minds of the non- or would-be- PvP'er that without gear he can't succeed at PvP, and without success in PvP he can't get gear. Justified or not, this concept will do more harm to PvP than any shineys and omg consoles can heal.
Without new blood PvP fails. We need to attract more players, not give them more excuses to avoid PvP.
The incentive to PvP isn't the gear, it never was. Nor will gear specific to PvP attract players who aren't interested in PvP. You may get some farmers to grind out the sets but, bonus achieved, they go away never to return.
Many players come to PvP curious, only to get blown away and never return. Instead of spending dev time on gimmicks, spend those same dev hours on balance, a working matchmaker system, and a method to bend the learning curve so that new PvP'ers aren't insta-ganked.
Adding more gear to separate the PvP player from the casual player will have the opposite of the intended effect: it will create in the minds of the non- or would-be- PvP'er that without gear he can't succeed at PvP, and without success in PvP he can't get gear. Justified or not, this concept will do more harm to PvP than any shineys and omg consoles can heal.
Then why have PvE sets? If you dont have borg gear are you liability when doing stfs with your team? Having sets really killed the reason for having non-set gear. I would not be opposed if they removed or changed sets though.
Having no gear as incentive to PvP is what we have now. Does it help?
In fact, the time when there was gear in the PvP marks shop, PvP was more alive then it is now. There used to be a time where people were after those Mark XI Covariant [CAP]x3 shields, only available for Marks of Honor.
The Sets should certainly not be better than the STF sets, but these sets already exist, and they are used in PvP - almost any harcore PvPer at some points grinds the STFs to get the gear. The ridiculous thing is that PvPers need to stop PvPIng to get something useful (and arguably only relevant there and nowhere else) for PvP.
The ridiculous thing is that PvPers need to stop PvPIng to get something useful (and arguably only relevant there and nowhere else) for PvP.
This is the bit that really gets me.
Eebul dev: Want some awesum gear to pew with? Go run eleven billion stf's for a rtandom drop
PvP'er: OK, starts doing some stf's
Eebul dev: Look at out metrics; nobody plays much pvp any more
PvP'er: Well, I'm still grinding out this ludicrous stf drop table to get epic gear to pvp. I have 6 toons to gear, you know.
Eebul dev: We might as well remove it if nobody plays it
PvP'er: ...
If I could get the STF gear (or different sets with the same stats and abilities) through PvP, I'd be happy. However, I'd be happy if sets were disabled as well, at least on the ground.
The thing that gets me is that you don't even need the PvE sets to compete in PvE, but you need them to compete in PvP it seems.
Maybe I'm nuts, but at this point I say the more sets the better as long as they are viable options. There is not going back, so as long as they keep coming up with different gear that can work for different strategies I'm ok with it. Before season 5 90% of better players were running borg set with aegis shields. Now there are a few combos that work well.
This is the bit that really gets me.
Eebul dev: Want some awesum gear to pew with? Go run eleven billion stf's for a rtandom drop
PvP'er: OK, starts doing some stf's
Eebul dev: Look at out metrics; nobody plays much pvp any more
PvP'er: Well, I'm still grinding out this ludicrous stf drop table to get epic gear to pvp. I have 6 toons to gear, you know.
Eebul dev: We might as well remove it if nobody plays it
PvP'er: ...
Good point, this is the same self-fulfilling prophecy that's lead to the lack of development and lack of playerbase in the KDF.
In fact, the time when there was gear in the PvP marks shop, PvP was more alive then it is now. There used to be a time where people were after those Mark XI Covariant [CAP]x3 shields, only available for Marks of Honor.
Perhaps it would be worthwhile to examine the metrics from when Marks of Honor were still in place, and compare them to recent data (I.E, post-addition of STF grindable gear). Perhaps that would make a case for re-implementing the Marks of Honor system.
That's another thing that really gets me- the transition to F2P was all about dissolving currencies into one form. Yet, the addition of the Lobi store and EDC's and whatnot seem counterintuitive.
Point-blank: PVP needs it's own gear, obtainable purely through PVP. Not only 'gear sets' (Deflectors, Shields, and Engines) but also weapons and consoles.
The addition of PVP gear sets and weapons/consoles should deal directly with the problems presenting themselves now in PVP- pets, and energy drains. I'm not sure where to go after that, but it surely seems like a logical place to start.
Does not the DL store basically fill the role of the old Mark Store?
if PvP sets arise, I would like to see a KDF melee set that accents the fact that most Klingons would rather face thier enemy with a blade than a disruptor.
If sets are to be introduced to entice ppl to pvp, the set will have to be better than what's available to pve'rs already through stf's. I'm not sure that's really a good idea seeing as how there's little question STF sets are already the best sets available for pvp. The other thing to consider is the community backlash of having the best set on the game being available through pvp only. Can you imagine the outcry? I'm not saying cryptic should listen to the whining, I'm just saying that historically they HAVE bent to the whining of the voice of the vast majority of pve'rs whining about changing things for the better of pvp
I think there are both pros and cons to having new pvp sets. The most important thing will be balance however. One pro to new sets is possibly opening up a whole weapon type (plasma) that has been nerfed into the ground with STF set plasma resists.
They also HAVE to to something to address afk'ers if they start introducing better rewards and set grinds
Does not the DL store basically fill the role of the old Mark Store?
if PvP sets arise, I would like to see a KDF melee set that accents the fact that most Klingons would rather face thier enemy with a blade than a disruptor.
Except that PvP Marks of Honor could only be attained via... PvP. Dilithium can be obtained any way. And the Dilithium Store doesn't give you the equivalents of Covariant Cap X3 shields in the era of sets.
Ultimately I think the specific implementation of the sets were a bad move. The idea was good, the SFX tech is genius, but the mechanics? Imbalanced. All the sets make any non-set item obsolete. I don't think that's the goal of sets in other games - you either try to go for sets and get the set bonuses, or you go for the rarest individual items that are just as strong as a full set. But what's done is done, no real point going over that anymore. They can't unmake their decisions anymore. We have to live with the idea that endgame gear consists of sets, and any item not in a set is worth very little and obsolete.
Since we have sets, and they are as powerful and relevant as they are, we need more of them, to reach diversity again. And we also need sets that you can gain via PvP. Not uber sets. Just sets that compare to the Assimilated Set or the MACO Set or what-you-have.
What we also don'T need, by the way, is a new currency.
Give us Accolades or some kind of PvP Commendations Tiers, and ranking up in these allows us to buy such gear, either for a token or for Dilithium (or a combination, e.g. one set item is for free, the rest for Dilithium)
I'm of the opinion that as PVP is as dead as it is, to the point that the Overlord even said this himself in plain terms, anything is worth a try at this point. I dont LIKE the idea of a grind, but it would bring players into PVP to get the sets, titles, accolades etc and if they were set up in a certain way then those said potential grinders would have to learn how to PVP in order to get them.
If they cant be bothered to learn to PVP in order to get the gear, then more for those that do.
I think one thing that is a must is that any new gear introduced isn't awarded on a participation basis, but on a wins basis. Otherwise pvp will be even more plagued with AFK'ers than it already is.
You don't get anything for losing an stf, so hopefully the same approach will be adopted here.
To expand on mustrums idea though, make pvp badges convertible to edcs so we can grind pvp for STF sets also. Maybe each person on the WINNING team has a 1/100 chance at a very rare gear set drop?
I think reality is PvP Sets will NOT save PvP. It will be an excuse to further hate PvP for those forced to do it for gear... the AFK set farming will be annoying to people that like PvP...
In the end anyone that doesn't like PvP won't be back after they get there set...
No one wins with more TRIBBLE sets.
Making current PvE Sets purchasable with PvP currency is also a very very bad idea. There are PvE people that complain about how hard it is to get Mk XII purple drops, I don't want them AFKing in my matches do you ?
No sets is a dead end... what ever Gozer is going to do gear should be the last thing he worries about.
I think reality is PvP Sets will NOT save PvP. It will be an excuse to further hate PvP for those forced to do it for gear... the AFK set farming will be annoying to people that like PvP...
In the end anyone that doesn't like PvP won't be back after they get there set...
No one wins with more TRIBBLE sets.
Making current PvE Sets purchasable with PvP currency is also a very very bad idea. There are PvE people that complain about how hard it is to get Mk XII purple drops, I don't want them AFKing in my matches do you ?
No sets is a dead end... what ever Gozer is going to do gear should be the last thing he worries about.
HEY! I did say they have to do something about afk'ers didn't I?
ah...tried to get out but they pulled you back in, huh. Been there...wait, I'm back here...
Ya I flip flop... I'm likely to be back full time soon enough. I rerolled on fatman and its been fun, its the only Heavy server they have anymore. I'm sure, its one patch away from getting me to rage quit. lol
Eebul dev: Want some awesum gear to pew with? Go run eleven billion stf's for a rtandom drop
PvP'er: OK, starts doing some stf's
Eebul dev: Look at out metrics; nobody plays much pvp any more
PvP'er: Well, I'm still grinding out this ludicrous stf drop table to get epic gear to pvp. I have 6 toons to gear, you know.
Eebul dev: We might as well remove it if nobody plays it
PvP'er: ...
This is exactly how I feel. Thanks for the articulation.
if u had to pvp for a pvp set....... the q's would always have premades ruining it for the casual pug pvper, at any givin time a premade would be running pvp's. as it is us casual pvpers can only pug when premades arent on if we want to have a decent even match
Sets themselves don't bother me (the pieces of equipment themselves are well-designed enough to the point where it's never completely clear cut on which piece you should take on a given ship, and you can weigh that against any of the set bonuses you'd like too), but as I've posted elsewhere before, there are way too few of them. The ones that do exist aren't trivial to get, either (even the Reman set is locked behind weeks of grind). Too much of the equipment in this game just can't compete with these two (or two-and-a-half) sets and it's a real waste; more grating is that it's not that basic equipment is radically outclassed, it's just that there's no reason to take it over the very slightly better options (see the phenom of people grinding for Mk XII as well).
They also basically negate one of the game's energy types (Plasma) which is pretty annoying.
if u had to pvp for a pvp set....... the q's would always have premades ruining it for the casual pug pvper, at any givin time a premade would be running pvp's. as it is us casual pvpers can only pug when premades arent on if we want to have a decent even match
Sets are part of a complex and large solution for PvP - they alone won't do it, of course, and they alone may even have negative effects. But if there are constantly premades in the queue, you have to realize, that will also mean constantly premades will fight premades. That alone would already be an improvement to now!
Add in a ranking /match-making system, and those premades are guaranteed to fight other premades and PuGs only fight PuGs (unless the PuG is really good or the Premade really bad).
But the match-making alone won't do much if there are no reasons to PvP for players.
Except that PvP Marks of Honor could only be attained via... PvP. Dilithium can be obtained any way. And the Dilithium Store doesn't give you the equivalents of Covariant Cap X3 shields in the era of sets.
I think that they should make the STF sets available for PvP in some way. Why not new ones? Because when Cryptic releases new stuff, it tends to work in balance with other things released at that time. So a few new PvP sets might be cool, and the Fed set might be comparable to the Kling set, but they'd be either over- or under-powered compared to STF sets. So just make STF sets available for PvP.
And whatever they are, don't just slap stuff on it because it sounds cool and send it into production. Take some time to think about how stuff interacts with mechanics across the larger game as a whole. Anything worth doing is worth doing right.
Eebul dev: Want some awesum gear to pew with? Go run eleven billion stf's for a rtandom drop
PvP'er: OK, starts doing some stf's
Eebul dev: Look at out metrics; nobody plays much pvp any more
PvP'er: Well, I'm still grinding out this ludicrous stf drop table to get epic gear to pvp. I have 6 toons to gear, you know.
Eebul dev: We might as well remove it if nobody plays it
PvP'er: ...
if u had to pvp for a pvp set....... the q's would always have premades ruining it for the casual pug pvper, at any givin time a premade would be running pvp's. as it is us casual pvpers can only pug when premades arent on if we want to have a decent even match
Nice.. I like it... make PvP only STFs (like PvE has theirs) to get PvP gear. But this would also challenge pugs to act as a team... nice...something needed two years ago!
But this would also challenge pugs to act as a team... nice...something needed two years ago!
They are already "challenged" to act as a team, they are challenged and FAIL all the time.
There is plenty of incentive for working together and teamwork, its just that most casual people can't be f'd to go towards it.
And if its pvp for pvp gear, in a pvp game they don't want to pvp in... WHATS THE POINT!?
I think the old pvp marks and cap3 shields brings a good thing to mind. Improve the dilithum store, and improve PvP's dilithum returns.
Have the PvP gear be purchasable through dilithum, this way anyone can grind/buy there way into a good gear set for pvp without having to grind STF's just to pvp they can pick there poison and gear up as they choose to.
Where STF sets have plasma resists, give PvP sets more generic yet weaker resists.
Give them a nice three piece bonus thats comparable to subnuc (mainly something to counter RSP), make them want to break that 2 or 3 piece borg set for something only truly useful in pvp.
PvP specific weapons with 2 or 3 ACC modifiers.
Possibly have a pvp "mark" again (yeah I know more currencies) where you need X marks + some dilithum, with not many marks being required. You get a mark for defeat or 2-3 for winnings in pvp, marks can be cashed in for dilithum.
Comments
Then why have PvE sets? If you dont have borg gear are you liability when doing stfs with your team? Having sets really killed the reason for having non-set gear. I would not be opposed if they removed or changed sets though.
In fact, the time when there was gear in the PvP marks shop, PvP was more alive then it is now. There used to be a time where people were after those Mark XI Covariant [CAP]x3 shields, only available for Marks of Honor.
The Sets should certainly not be better than the STF sets, but these sets already exist, and they are used in PvP - almost any harcore PvPer at some points grinds the STFs to get the gear. The ridiculous thing is that PvPers need to stop PvPIng to get something useful (and arguably only relevant there and nowhere else) for PvP.
This is the bit that really gets me.
Eebul dev: Want some awesum gear to pew with? Go run eleven billion stf's for a rtandom drop
PvP'er: OK, starts doing some stf's
Eebul dev: Look at out metrics; nobody plays much pvp any more
PvP'er: Well, I'm still grinding out this ludicrous stf drop table to get epic gear to pvp. I have 6 toons to gear, you know.
Eebul dev: We might as well remove it if nobody plays it
PvP'er: ...
The thing that gets me is that you don't even need the PvE sets to compete in PvE, but you need them to compete in PvP it seems.
Good point, this is the same self-fulfilling prophecy that's lead to the lack of development and lack of playerbase in the KDF.
Perhaps it would be worthwhile to examine the metrics from when Marks of Honor were still in place, and compare them to recent data (I.E, post-addition of STF grindable gear). Perhaps that would make a case for re-implementing the Marks of Honor system.
That's another thing that really gets me- the transition to F2P was all about dissolving currencies into one form. Yet, the addition of the Lobi store and EDC's and whatnot seem counterintuitive.
Point-blank: PVP needs it's own gear, obtainable purely through PVP. Not only 'gear sets' (Deflectors, Shields, and Engines) but also weapons and consoles.
The addition of PVP gear sets and weapons/consoles should deal directly with the problems presenting themselves now in PVP- pets, and energy drains. I'm not sure where to go after that, but it surely seems like a logical place to start.
if PvP sets arise, I would like to see a KDF melee set that accents the fact that most Klingons would rather face thier enemy with a blade than a disruptor.
I think there are both pros and cons to having new pvp sets. The most important thing will be balance however. One pro to new sets is possibly opening up a whole weapon type (plasma) that has been nerfed into the ground with STF set plasma resists.
They also HAVE to to something to address afk'ers if they start introducing better rewards and set grinds
Except that PvP Marks of Honor could only be attained via... PvP. Dilithium can be obtained any way. And the Dilithium Store doesn't give you the equivalents of Covariant Cap X3 shields in the era of sets.
Ultimately I think the specific implementation of the sets were a bad move. The idea was good, the SFX tech is genius, but the mechanics? Imbalanced. All the sets make any non-set item obsolete. I don't think that's the goal of sets in other games - you either try to go for sets and get the set bonuses, or you go for the rarest individual items that are just as strong as a full set. But what's done is done, no real point going over that anymore. They can't unmake their decisions anymore. We have to live with the idea that endgame gear consists of sets, and any item not in a set is worth very little and obsolete.
Since we have sets, and they are as powerful and relevant as they are, we need more of them, to reach diversity again. And we also need sets that you can gain via PvP. Not uber sets. Just sets that compare to the Assimilated Set or the MACO Set or what-you-have.
What we also don'T need, by the way, is a new currency.
Give us Accolades or some kind of PvP Commendations Tiers, and ranking up in these allows us to buy such gear, either for a token or for Dilithium (or a combination, e.g. one set item is for free, the rest for Dilithium)
If they cant be bothered to learn to PVP in order to get the gear, then more for those that do.
You don't get anything for losing an stf, so hopefully the same approach will be adopted here.
In the end anyone that doesn't like PvP won't be back after they get there set...
No one wins with more TRIBBLE sets.
Making current PvE Sets purchasable with PvP currency is also a very very bad idea. There are PvE people that complain about how hard it is to get Mk XII purple drops, I don't want them AFKing in my matches do you ?
No sets is a dead end... what ever Gozer is going to do gear should be the last thing he worries about.
HEY! I did say they have to do something about afk'ers didn't I?
Why you no pew with us anymore?
I've been shooting nerds with my sniper rifle... and stabbing em with my vibro knife.
I'll come pew some more soon.
ah...tried to get out but they pulled you back in, huh. Been there...wait, I'm back here...
Ya I flip flop... I'm likely to be back full time soon enough. I rerolled on fatman and its been fun, its the only Heavy server they have anymore. I'm sure, its one patch away from getting me to rage quit. lol
This is exactly how I feel. Thanks for the articulation.
They also basically negate one of the game's energy types (Plasma) which is pretty annoying.
Sets are part of a complex and large solution for PvP - they alone won't do it, of course, and they alone may even have negative effects. But if there are constantly premades in the queue, you have to realize, that will also mean constantly premades will fight premades. That alone would already be an improvement to now!
Add in a ranking /match-making system, and those premades are guaranteed to fight other premades and PuGs only fight PuGs (unless the PuG is really good or the Premade really bad).
But the match-making alone won't do much if there are no reasons to PvP for players.
You are DEAD ON!
Nice.. I like it... make PvP only STFs (like PvE has theirs) to get PvP gear. But this would also challenge pugs to act as a team... nice...something needed two years ago!
They are already "challenged" to act as a team, they are challenged and FAIL all the time.
There is plenty of incentive for working together and teamwork, its just that most casual people can't be f'd to go towards it.
And if its pvp for pvp gear, in a pvp game they don't want to pvp in... WHATS THE POINT!?
I think the old pvp marks and cap3 shields brings a good thing to mind. Improve the dilithum store, and improve PvP's dilithum returns.
Have the PvP gear be purchasable through dilithum, this way anyone can grind/buy there way into a good gear set for pvp without having to grind STF's just to pvp they can pick there poison and gear up as they choose to.
Where STF sets have plasma resists, give PvP sets more generic yet weaker resists.
Give them a nice three piece bonus thats comparable to subnuc (mainly something to counter RSP), make them want to break that 2 or 3 piece borg set for something only truly useful in pvp.
PvP specific weapons with 2 or 3 ACC modifiers.
Possibly have a pvp "mark" again (yeah I know more currencies) where you need X marks + some dilithum, with not many marks being required. You get a mark for defeat or 2-3 for winnings in pvp, marks can be cashed in for dilithum.