All this P2W whining is starting to get to me... and this is why:
P2W is bad, because it allows players with lots of RL money to be stronger. right?
P2W stuff is bought with c-points. right?
C-points can be bought with Dilithium, wich can be grinded by playing. right?
So then what's the problem? You can get the stuff without spending a $. Sure, those that want to spend $ gets it a little faster, but as long as it's not a new, even more OP, item every week, it doesn't really matter. The current c-store stuff has been there long enough to be grinded through Dilithium long ago.
And yes, those c-points were paid for by someone. Someone who could afford to pay cash for Dili. And so what? Cryptic makes their profit, and the equipment is available to everyone. This is not unfair.
(On a seperate note: Some of those c-store things are OP, and some are just annoying, but they are NOT P2W. Stupid, inbalanced and cheesy, but not pay2win)
You still can buy an advantage by spending C-Points. After all, you don't have to grind for them (well, depending on your work, it may feel like you do, but...). Or you grind in game as well as spending C-Points, giving you an advantage over someone that can only grind.
Of course, one of the things that annoys me most about the P2W consoles is that they are badly designed. They break the existing design paradigm on powers and consoles significantly, and so it's no surprise they break balance. That some are also mechanically so poor thought out that they would even be OP if they were BO powers is its own problem.
But imagine if these consoles would work entirely like normal consoles (giving some kind of passive buff), and owning them also allowed you to train a Bridge Officer in a new skill. Suddenly the entire problem of an extra power is eliminated. You sacrifice one BO power for a new special power. T he in-built opportinity cost for powers is maintained (You need a BO slot for them). And the powers could also be balanced directly against other BO powers, which for many would probably mean improved cooldown rates. If the Vent console gave you a variant Eject Warp Plasma, it could have the same cooldown instead of that 2-3 minute cooldown it has now, for example.
It gets a little more complicated with passive benefits - or maybe not, since those may not need to be BO powers in the firs tplaces - passives fit exactly in the console paradigm already.
What the Cryptic development team is missing IMO is a clear vision of their system and how it all fits together. Maybe something like that is not to be had if some bean counter tells you "we need our first +1 ship in the C-Store in a month from now, get on with it". [/Rant]
Do you really want the good fleets to start using AMS/GravPulse/... en masse?
Yes, I want that to happen. Absolutely. Gozer is looking into PvP. We should stop holding back and get ugly. I want the New PvP to be a PvP where no one has to hold back with some abilities because they are blatantly unfair, broken or unfun if used by competent players. I want to have a game system where "everything goes".
Get out your Tractor Beam Pets, AMS, Grav Pulses and Plasma Vents or what else and use them.
Take that with a grain of salt though: I am not PvPing much right now, so I won't be hurt in any way. DOFFs and Elite STFs is it, and probably will be until I get two toons with Mark XI Sets at least.
But if you're worried that you kill off all PvP interest - there isn't much left in the current system anyway, as Gozer stated. So if you make things a little worse just to show off how bad things really are mechanically, and have a hope to get it fixed, then this is your chance. Don't let the devs say "Oh, it's not so bad, the people aren't using this stuff anyway, so it's probably fine".
Do you really want the good fleets to start using AMS/GravPulse/... en masse?
Well, since I am plying exclusively P-U-G, it wouldn't matter. It may even make the horrible 0-15 against premades last shorter...
As for all the "less than good" premades out there, they already are using these consoles.
but I guess my biggest grief, is that I have a lot of these consoles, and they havent cost me a single $... They are my payment for months and years of grinding. And I'm afraid to use them, because people will accuse me of winning by $$$ rather than skill (EDIT: IF I should be so lucky as to win, that is) How can I be paying to win without spending any money? :eek:
Like if it's not bad enough that cryptic took my mountain of emblems etc and made it into a pile of useless dilithium... that I exchanged for a handfull of c-points... but what I bought for those c-points I can't use, except against PvE, where it's not needed anyway
And yes, if people are using them, and a Gozer incognito queues up for a match, he MAY see the error of their ways.
P2w is just a title. The issue isn't whether you payed RL money for these item or if you grinded for them. The issue is that most of them are way out of balance. If someone is using the stupid p2w console that comes off the sci ship that gives you a boost to aux and shields at the same time, no one would care because it's a waste of a console slot for something that is either balanced or underpowered. The issue is these powers that are arguably commander level powerful or better at the cost of a console slot. To top it off, some of the abilities like AMS is STILL broke after they promised us that it was fixed. I had a AMSx3 stacked on me the other night.
agreed gloves off, not like premades fly oddys and lockbox ships to beginn with anyways. I m sick n tired of double standards and people holding back. If we want a fun fight, we can agree on rules like it happens before almost every match anyways.
12th fleet deathmatch wasn't to bad and it was clearly marked as gloves off.
agreed gloves off, not like premades fly oddys and lockbox ships to beginn with anyways. I m sick n tired of double standards and people holding back. If we want a fun fight, we can agree on rules like it happens before almost every match anyways.
12th fleet deathmatch wasn't to bad and it was clearly marked as gloves off.
99% of my PVPs are with PUGs. And when I go against a premade, they use AMS, GP and the more annoying: lockboxes OP ships.
I use a Science Ship (yes, I am crazy) and I prefer to fight a fleet with AMS than a fleet of PTW ships! At least AMS goes away with Science Team.
So, dont give me the we have honor speech when you use a PTW ship.. worst, a lockbox ship (that make my stomach sick).
99% of my PVPs are with PUGs. And when I go against a premade, they use AMS, GP and the more annoying: lockboxes OP ships.
I use a Science Ship (yes, I am crazy) and I prefer to fight a fleet with AMS than a fleet of PTW ships! At least AMS goes away with Science Team.
So, dont give me the we have honor speech when you use a PTW ship.. worst, a lockbox ship (that make my stomach sick).
Trust me, if you faced an actual GOOD premade that chose to all pick up AMS, theta, and the other one that slows your turn rate, and they chained it on you with actual team coordination, you would quickly change your mind about these abilities being easy to deal with. There are some ok premades currently using these tactics to try to compete with better premades, but we can all be thankful that a fleet like the pandas doesn't throw together a cheese2win premade setup and really give e1 something to complain about.
I can't argue that the ody isn't a +1 ship however. Can't speak as to the bortas, but from what I've seen, I think I'd take the ody in a support role on a team over the bortas
Trust me, if you faced an actual GOOD premade that chose to all pick up AMS, theta, and the other one that slows your turn rate, and they chained it on you with actual team coordination, you would quickly change your mind about these abilities being easy to deal with. There are some ok premades currently using these tactics to try to compete with better premades, but we can all be thankful that a fleet like the pandas doesn't throw together a cheese2win premade setup and really give e1 something to complain about.
I never said it was easy to deal with AMS! ¿Did you reed what I said?
"At least AMS goes away with Science Team." My advice to you is that if you are going to counter another user argument, at least reed it first.
And yes, I face premade of famous fleet with lockboxes ships! Like I said, AMS cost 5 dollars, lockboxes OP ships cost a average of 300 or 400 dollars. ¿Who paid more to win?
Ody and bortas cost 15 dollars ¿who paid more to win?
Anyway, I will stay on my useless Science ship that I choose to play just for the fact that is beautiful and Canon. But dont try to tell me that premade dont pay to win, ¿they dont need it? We agree, they probably can kill a PUG team with shuttles, but they use it nevertheless.
Btw.. I am out of the discussion, not in the mood today.
the problem is that stuff is a cancer killing the fun of pvp. it was more fun before that stuff existed. more people having the stuff would make it worse
wait dont u have every lockbox and c store ship in the game? yeah, you do. so u fly your dkora andjem ship, and ill wipe your whoile team in one volley of iso. fair deal? too bad thats the way it is now.
Do you really want the good fleets to start using AMS/GravPulse/... en masse?
your toon using plasm leech wasnt enough in our duel? seeing you use that went a long way to change my mind about p2w. p2w is here to stay imma use whatever it takes.
bring your ams. bring your impulse. bring your p2w. MY P2W IS STRONGER THAN YOURS
your toon using plasm leech wasnt enough in our duel? seeing you use that went a long way to change my mind about p2w.
You forget the part where I offered to take it off because I felt it wasn't right to use it in a 1v1. You declined.
This entire "p2w is fine" sounds a lot like all the players who were claiming that New FAW was fine because they had never faced players who knew how to use it to its full extent.
And in the end it's not so much about paying, it's about fun. Is a match with excessive AMS/GravPulse really what increases your fun?
And I'm still shouting at Kai in vent when he uses his consoles unprovoked... I guess I should instead start encouraging him or even get some myself?
So, dont give me the we have honor speech when you use a PTW ship.. worst, a lockbox ship (that make my stomach sick).
Best to head your own advice, since you missed my point. The double standard is prentending that all lockbox c-store oddys are ok, but broken consoles are P2W. I know how many oddyes i see with premade teams.
and just for the record. I do NOT own, and never have, a lockbox ship.
the problem is that stuff is a cancer killing the fun of pvp. it was more fun before that stuff existed. more people having the stuff would make it worse
And we all are free to agree to rules when we set up private matches. On the other side contantly having some lockbox pilot, DOff lottery winner/ console addict, scream at me in vent, because he frowns on one console and not the other is annoying as ****, and sucks the fun out of it.
Trust me, if you faced an actual GOOD premade that chose to all pick up AMS, theta, and the other one that slows your turn rate, and they chained it on you with actual team coordination, you would quickly change your mind about these abilities being easy to deal with.
I can't argue that the ody isn't a +1 ship however. Can't speak as to the bortas, but from what I've seen, I think I'd take the ody in a support role on a team over the bortas
NO offence fallout, but you overestimate the fun of pugs being slaughter by actual good premades with or without oddys, or how much difference the HOW makes here.
I think you are more concerned what two team facing each other would look like, not much fun, lots of cheese and i agree. Hence, let's agree on stuff before proper matches.
If stuff is broken and unfun, its upon Cryptic to fix it, and the only way they are going to see it is by seeing it in the queues. I m tired of all the cheese as anybody else, but I'm even more tired of all the QQ and double standards surrounding it. Gloves off in the queues, if you go in as a team or pug.
Best to head your own advice, since you missed my point. The double standard is prentending that all lockbox c-store oddys are ok, but broken consoles are P2W. I know how many oddyes i see with premade teams.
Maybe my post wasnt clear, but I agree with you
Like you said, to me PTW ships are the same (or like I said even worst) than PTW consoles.
But hell, some fleets think that they are honest because they dont use PTW consoles but they use PTW ships.
Just to be sure, the plasma manifold isn't worth it? I was going to remake my science captain and buy the oberth? I'm new though and don't really know how all the P2W items work. I though shield and aux boost would be great for pve and pvp.
Just to be sure, the plasma manifold isn't worth it? I was going to remake my science captain and buy the oberth? I'm new though and don't really know how all the P2W items work. I though shield and aux boost would be great for pve and pvp.
With the 2-fer batteries you get in the lockboxes it is a little obsolete
As has already been pointed out, P2W is a bit of a misnomer or at least lends itself to a number of inaccurate assumptions. P2W is not an iWin button. It doesn't make awful players awesome but it does kill the curve. It isn't even the wins and losses that matter. It's the fun.
In this case, it is a poorly developed cluster of items and mechanics that have been released upon a system already heavily burdened by its own problematic mechanics. Some are too good. Some are too bad. Some don't interact intuitively, or even effectively, with things they are supposedly meant to interact with. In some cases it's a slight edge by itself and completely game ruining in conjunction with each additional unit.
It seems clear that many of these gimmicks were released as a cash grab, something I certainly don't fault Cryptic for. I want them to succeed in spite of themselves. In my opinion, a little more forethought could have made these things appealing without breaking anything. Of course overpowered items sell, that doesn't mean that a well balanced, carefully tested item won't. Now we've been inundated with this veritable flood of consoles and +1's that are so out of whack that it's difficult to bring things back to a reasonable level.
PvP is an addictive dynamic game play opportunity that is severely diminished every time something clearly out performs to the point of making any other option obsolete.
There is an argument to be made for sucking it up and dealing with it. Effectively, if you don't like it, get out. Eventually, if things get to a point where stuff works reasonably well as expected I'll be back on board that train myself. Unfortunately there are things that are wrong. There are things that aren't fun. This is the time to address them. This is how we'll help to make the game better.
We can dismiss everything we don't want to hear as whining. Who cares what anyone else thinks anyway? There are options built into the game to help filter out anything that might not jive with one's personal sense of self. Unlike a few of the items and mechanics in question, ignore seems to work reliably and exactly as expected.
Lets end the P2W debate once and for all. Some fleets (and some rotten apples) use it, some do not. If youve pvp'ed long enough you most likely already know who keeps getting seduced by using em u just ignore em and see them as an idiot player, and keep the rest for yourself. Dont ever acknowledge a 1v1 either. If ur unwantedly stuck with a P2w guy in an arena and u find urself 1v1'ing him just evasive out to the rest of the group.
If you see a premade using it, just dont fight them anymore. (Not saying u should just warp out of the queue because thats lame as well)
But if its Premade vs premade u can decide not to challenge them at all.
I'd say all good pvp'ers that have the ability to improve theirselves (without P2w) do not use P2w. Simple as that. (Ofcourse not all P2w is op, some are just funny like impulse capacitor and stuff)
I doubt anyone really cares about those.
P2w is again just a name for the consoles, but the only issue is the consoles that are way more effective at doing their job then their original non p2w console counterparts.
Buying CPs with Dilithium should be not allowed anymore.
I tend to disagree. This is a good way of getting those who want to spend much money to finance the game, while even those with little money can share the rewards.
(but ofc, dilithium rewards should be balanced to let players do the part of STO they want to do)
Trust me, if you faced an actual GOOD premade that chose to all pick up AMS, theta, and the other one that slows your turn rate, and they chained it on you with actual team coordination, you would quickly change your mind about these abilities being easy to deal with. There are some ok premades currently using these tactics to try to compete with better premades, but we can all be thankful that a fleet like the pandas doesn't throw together a cheese2win premade setup and really give e1 something to complain about.
Do you think I would notice any difference? Would the insta-wipe feel worse in some way? Would I last 2 seconds in stead of 3 when targeted by "the asian bears that smile not"?
As for most of the not-top premades i face, they mostly use this stuff anyway.
In this case, it is a poorly developed cluster of items and mechanics that have been released upon a system already heavily burdened by its own problematic mechanics. Some are too good. Some are too bad. Some don't interact intuitively, or even effectively, with things they are supposedly meant to interact with. In some cases it's a slight edge by itself and completely game ruining in conjunction with each additional unit.
And some are more of p2g (pay to grief) than p2w...
Quick sort of question here. What about Doffs? Are they pay to win? And really I don't even mean that. What I mean is does the community at large consider them must haves or you will be at a severe disadvantage? Is it generally considered a "good thing" that some combinations of Very Rare Doffs give exceptionally strong performance boosts?
This isn't sour grapes. Many of these Doffs are on the exchange for a few million each and turning a Key into a million EC takes less than a minute. So anyone can get them one way or another. My primary ship is optimized to not really need or even really be able to use much in the way of Doffs or C store consoles with the exception of Impulse Cap but I have several other Characters that can and do.
So are we in a position again with Doffs like we were with the old engineering +35% to shields consoles? With the added bonus of there is no real counter to the ways that Doffs enhance a players ships. Or ground. For those five guys that PvP ground, there you go. You got a byline.
Most of the consoles really aren't so powerful any longer. People have learned the counters whether it be through an ability or ship piloting. Some consoles have been tuned down. Doffs just keep getting better.
I'm not saying consoles are fair and balanced or that they all work in a reasonable manner. I'm just saying that they never approached the level of OP that doffs are bringing to the game in ways that a couple of months ago we were only guessing at.
And don't get me started on dual system batteries. There's a game changer. Now a BOP can have shields, engines, and a Devidian Device. Doesn't seem like much. But it is. On the other hand I believe there was an entire thread on tossing consumables out of PvP. And that's not even team batteries. See? I got started
I had a point here somewhere.
Does anyone else feel that certain new elements in pvp, namely doffs and consumables, are so strong that if you don't take advantage of them you are putting yourself at a substantial disadvantage? And if you do believe this is true do you think that that is okay?
doffs are hilariously op. the right doffs can give you the strongest shield heal in the game, double the potency of science powers and tactics, and can basically give you 2 copies of all the team and EPt skills, or a free LTC station power as i like to think of it.
boy does my tac excelsior like having ET3 and A2S3 every 15 seconds. 2 copies of TT for the price of 1 is always handy too, wile not giving up my LT and LTC tac powers for another copy. this along with the shield distribute doff nearly double my total survivability.
There are a lot of things out of balance. P2W is only a part of it. For the most part (sans lotto ships) C-Store stuff isn't as out of whack atm as other things.
Personally what I'd least like to face in order starting from least:
1. All Lock box team (escort & dps cruiser, not sure the galor is though) w/consoles
2. All phaser team
3. a. 3 or more cross healing Fed carriers (mainly b/c of phaser proc et al pets)
b. 3 or more cross healing KDF carriers (immunity console & trics & cronts et al pets)
4. Team of C-Store console spam
5. Team of all +1 C-Store ships
6. Team of all sci caps who spam lots of sci & mines to lag the TRIBBLE out of my older vid card
7. Tet glider team
8. OP doffs (some seem ok others aren't working as intended or are just OP by design)
As far as doffs go one problem is things still aren't working as dev intended. The dev stated the goal was to require 3 purp doffs (for those which stacked) to achieve the max effect. So, for example if you wanted to max TT cooldown you'd have to use 3 purp doffs. Last I checked this stuff was still buggy and double ticked effects. A second problem as has been mentioned is Doffs which are just too effective. 1 Shield distribution doff has more healing then Transfer shields 3 last I checked. Warp Core Eng gives up to +25 power to all systems each proc. Then theirs the flight deck doffs ...
As far as using/abusing OP stuff I go back & forth, but personally I prefer to not do so as a rule of thumb. On the otherhand I have no problem fighting fire w/fire and even doing so in what I feel is the most annoying way possible depending on what I'm having to put up with.
doffs are hilariously op. the right doffs can give you the strongest shield heal in the game, double the potency of science powers and tactics, and can basically give you 2 copies of all the team and EPt skills, or a free LTC station power as i like to think of it.
boy does my tac excelsior like having ET3 and A2S3 every 15 seconds. 2 copies of TT for the price of 1 is always handy too, wile not giving up my LT and LTC tac powers for another copy. this along with the shield distribute doff nearly double my total survivability.
This is just it! If we have enough OP stacking doffs, they will no longer be OP!
Ok, for a straight copy-paste escort or cruiser that most people fly, having 3 copies of Vog the Faithless (shield) may be the best thing... but wait, if you want to half the CD of your team, you need 3 other doffs! And so on...
IMO, the only problem with doffs is that many of them are UP (underpowered). In a good and entertaining doff system, I want to have to choose between 15 different doffs, and I want having to give up any of those 15 doffs to be painful to me.
Just imagine if they were to let the warp core engineer be slotted 3 times... Each one giving a 20% chance of increased power when using EPtoX.. You're in a cruiser, and you want 3 of those guys, 3 shield guys, and 3 guys helping your engineering team (and maybe even some guys helping your sci or tac teams). Now you will have to choose! I really love how the doff system has given us the chance to further customize our ships, in a way that has direct and noticable effect on gameplay. I would hate for the doff system to be reduced to a barely noticeable effect.
People find P2W consoles (not all but a fair few) OP, but as the OP said, you can get them with dilithium and not real money, which suits me, I haven't baught anything this year except the Oddy pack with real money, the rest was dilithium, plus there's the console being thrown in scamboxes.
But at the end of the day, there's nothing anyone can do here except talk about ways of bringing them down.
I wouldn't be against reducing my dependency on duty officers. I don't think they are P2W since for the moment they can be obtained for free (with a fair amount of grinding). Some of that is changing though with stuff only available from lock boxes. They do create a further unstable force to PvP though.
I love doffing (it's shamefully addictive) but it would have been much easier to balance them if you couldn't stack any. Think of how much more easily you could adjust stats if you only had to worry about the effects of one rather than up to three. They could have even made a more complex system where you could only use one purple of a type, two blues, three greens or four whites of a single type to equal the same effect. I don't know, there are lots of ways doffs could be adjusted to add flavor without making them a necessity.
I wouldn't object to doffs being disabled in PvP or having matches where people controlled usage like other powers (this would be incredibly difficult to police for some). Still, I would prefer adjustments to the system itself.
Comments
I can just imagine the rage
Of course, one of the things that annoys me most about the P2W consoles is that they are badly designed. They break the existing design paradigm on powers and consoles significantly, and so it's no surprise they break balance. That some are also mechanically so poor thought out that they would even be OP if they were BO powers is its own problem.
But imagine if these consoles would work entirely like normal consoles (giving some kind of passive buff), and owning them also allowed you to train a Bridge Officer in a new skill. Suddenly the entire problem of an extra power is eliminated. You sacrifice one BO power for a new special power. T he in-built opportinity cost for powers is maintained (You need a BO slot for them). And the powers could also be balanced directly against other BO powers, which for many would probably mean improved cooldown rates. If the Vent console gave you a variant Eject Warp Plasma, it could have the same cooldown instead of that 2-3 minute cooldown it has now, for example.
It gets a little more complicated with passive benefits - or maybe not, since those may not need to be BO powers in the firs tplaces - passives fit exactly in the console paradigm already.
What the Cryptic development team is missing IMO is a clear vision of their system and how it all fits together. Maybe something like that is not to be had if some bean counter tells you "we need our first +1 ship in the C-Store in a month from now, get on with it". [/Rant]
Yes, I want that to happen. Absolutely. Gozer is looking into PvP. We should stop holding back and get ugly. I want the New PvP to be a PvP where no one has to hold back with some abilities because they are blatantly unfair, broken or unfun if used by competent players. I want to have a game system where "everything goes".
Get out your Tractor Beam Pets, AMS, Grav Pulses and Plasma Vents or what else and use them.
Take that with a grain of salt though: I am not PvPing much right now, so I won't be hurt in any way. DOFFs and Elite STFs is it, and probably will be until I get two toons with Mark XI Sets at least.
But if you're worried that you kill off all PvP interest - there isn't much left in the current system anyway, as Gozer stated. So if you make things a little worse just to show off how bad things really are mechanically, and have a hope to get it fixed, then this is your chance. Don't let the devs say "Oh, it's not so bad, the people aren't using this stuff anyway, so it's probably fine".
Well, since I am plying exclusively P-U-G, it wouldn't matter. It may even make the horrible 0-15 against premades last shorter...
As for all the "less than good" premades out there, they already are using these consoles.
but I guess my biggest grief, is that I have a lot of these consoles, and they havent cost me a single $... They are my payment for months and years of grinding. And I'm afraid to use them, because people will accuse me of winning by $$$ rather than skill
Like if it's not bad enough that cryptic took my mountain of emblems etc and made it into a pile of useless dilithium... that I exchanged for a handfull of c-points... but what I bought for those c-points I can't use, except against PvE, where it's not needed anyway
And yes, if people are using them, and a Gozer incognito queues up for a match, he MAY see the error of their ways.
My bad.
12th fleet deathmatch wasn't to bad and it was clearly marked as gloves off.
Its encourage mindless grinding and disencourage other types of play, like PvP...
and yes, you can do the dailies, but most people who plays for dilithium plays only STFs, since you can do them almost everytime.
so basically, as per my vision, Foundry and PvP are less encouraged to play, helping them to die even more.
99% of my PVPs are with PUGs. And when I go against a premade, they use AMS, GP and the more annoying: lockboxes OP ships.
I use a Science Ship (yes, I am crazy) and I prefer to fight a fleet with AMS than a fleet of PTW ships! At least AMS goes away with Science Team.
So, dont give me the we have honor speech when you use a PTW ship.. worst, a lockbox ship (that make my stomach sick).
Trust me, if you faced an actual GOOD premade that chose to all pick up AMS, theta, and the other one that slows your turn rate, and they chained it on you with actual team coordination, you would quickly change your mind about these abilities being easy to deal with. There are some ok premades currently using these tactics to try to compete with better premades, but we can all be thankful that a fleet like the pandas doesn't throw together a cheese2win premade setup and really give e1 something to complain about.
I can't argue that the ody isn't a +1 ship however. Can't speak as to the bortas, but from what I've seen, I think I'd take the ody in a support role on a team over the bortas
I never said it was easy to deal with AMS! ¿Did you reed what I said?
"At least AMS goes away with Science Team." My advice to you is that if you are going to counter another user argument, at least reed it first.
And yes, I face premade of famous fleet with lockboxes ships! Like I said, AMS cost 5 dollars, lockboxes OP ships cost a average of 300 or 400 dollars. ¿Who paid more to win?
Ody and bortas cost 15 dollars ¿who paid more to win?
Anyway, I will stay on my useless Science ship that I choose to play just for the fact that is beautiful and Canon. But dont try to tell me that premade dont pay to win, ¿they dont need it? We agree, they probably can kill a PUG team with shuttles, but they use it nevertheless.
Btw.. I am out of the discussion, not in the mood today.
wait dont u have every lockbox and c store ship in the game? yeah, you do. so u fly your dkora andjem ship, and ill wipe your whoile team in one volley of iso. fair deal? too bad thats the way it is now.
your toon using plasm leech wasnt enough in our duel? seeing you use that went a long way to change my mind about p2w. p2w is here to stay imma use whatever it takes.
bring your ams. bring your impulse. bring your p2w. MY P2W IS STRONGER THAN YOURS
This entire "p2w is fine" sounds a lot like all the players who were claiming that New FAW was fine because they had never faced players who knew how to use it to its full extent.
And in the end it's not so much about paying, it's about fun. Is a match with excessive AMS/GravPulse really what increases your fun?
And I'm still shouting at Kai in vent when he uses his consoles unprovoked... I guess I should instead start encouraging him or even get some myself?
Best to head your own advice, since you missed my point. The double standard is prentending that all lockbox c-store oddys are ok, but broken consoles are P2W. I know how many oddyes i see with premade teams.
and just for the record. I do NOT own, and never have, a lockbox ship.
And we all are free to agree to rules when we set up private matches. On the other side contantly having some lockbox pilot, DOff lottery winner/ console addict, scream at me in vent, because he frowns on one console and not the other is annoying as ****, and sucks the fun out of it.
NO offence fallout, but you overestimate the fun of pugs being slaughter by actual good premades with or without oddys, or how much difference the HOW makes here.
I think you are more concerned what two team facing each other would look like, not much fun, lots of cheese and i agree. Hence, let's agree on stuff before proper matches.
If stuff is broken and unfun, its upon Cryptic to fix it, and the only way they are going to see it is by seeing it in the queues. I m tired of all the cheese as anybody else, but I'm even more tired of all the QQ and double standards surrounding it. Gloves off in the queues, if you go in as a team or pug.
Maybe my post wasnt clear, but I agree with you
Like you said, to me PTW ships are the same (or like I said even worst) than PTW consoles.
But hell, some fleets think that they are honest because they dont use PTW consoles but they use PTW ships.
With the 2-fer batteries you get in the lockboxes it is a little obsolete
In this case, it is a poorly developed cluster of items and mechanics that have been released upon a system already heavily burdened by its own problematic mechanics. Some are too good. Some are too bad. Some don't interact intuitively, or even effectively, with things they are supposedly meant to interact with. In some cases it's a slight edge by itself and completely game ruining in conjunction with each additional unit.
It seems clear that many of these gimmicks were released as a cash grab, something I certainly don't fault Cryptic for. I want them to succeed in spite of themselves. In my opinion, a little more forethought could have made these things appealing without breaking anything. Of course overpowered items sell, that doesn't mean that a well balanced, carefully tested item won't. Now we've been inundated with this veritable flood of consoles and +1's that are so out of whack that it's difficult to bring things back to a reasonable level.
PvP is an addictive dynamic game play opportunity that is severely diminished every time something clearly out performs to the point of making any other option obsolete.
There is an argument to be made for sucking it up and dealing with it. Effectively, if you don't like it, get out. Eventually, if things get to a point where stuff works reasonably well as expected I'll be back on board that train myself. Unfortunately there are things that are wrong. There are things that aren't fun. This is the time to address them. This is how we'll help to make the game better.
We can dismiss everything we don't want to hear as whining. Who cares what anyone else thinks anyway? There are options built into the game to help filter out anything that might not jive with one's personal sense of self. Unlike a few of the items and mechanics in question, ignore seems to work reliably and exactly as expected.
If you see a premade using it, just dont fight them anymore. (Not saying u should just warp out of the queue because thats lame as well)
But if its Premade vs premade u can decide not to challenge them at all.
I'd say all good pvp'ers that have the ability to improve theirselves (without P2w) do not use P2w. Simple as that. (Ofcourse not all P2w is op, some are just funny like impulse capacitor and stuff)
I doubt anyone really cares about those.
P2w is again just a name for the consoles, but the only issue is the consoles that are way more effective at doing their job then their original non p2w console counterparts.
I tend to disagree. This is a good way of getting those who want to spend much money to finance the game, while even those with little money can share the rewards.
(but ofc, dilithium rewards should be balanced to let players do the part of STO they want to do)
Do you think I would notice any difference? Would the insta-wipe feel worse in some way? Would I last 2 seconds in stead of 3 when targeted by "the asian bears that smile not"?
As for most of the not-top premades i face, they mostly use this stuff anyway.
And some are more of p2g (pay to grief) than p2w...
This isn't sour grapes. Many of these Doffs are on the exchange for a few million each and turning a Key into a million EC takes less than a minute. So anyone can get them one way or another. My primary ship is optimized to not really need or even really be able to use much in the way of Doffs or C store consoles with the exception of Impulse Cap but I have several other Characters that can and do.
So are we in a position again with Doffs like we were with the old engineering +35% to shields consoles? With the added bonus of there is no real counter to the ways that Doffs enhance a players ships. Or ground. For those five guys that PvP ground, there you go. You got a byline.
Most of the consoles really aren't so powerful any longer. People have learned the counters whether it be through an ability or ship piloting. Some consoles have been tuned down. Doffs just keep getting better.
I'm not saying consoles are fair and balanced or that they all work in a reasonable manner. I'm just saying that they never approached the level of OP that doffs are bringing to the game in ways that a couple of months ago we were only guessing at.
And don't get me started on dual system batteries. There's a game changer. Now a BOP can have shields, engines, and a Devidian Device. Doesn't seem like much. But it is. On the other hand I believe there was an entire thread on tossing consumables out of PvP. And that's not even team batteries. See? I got started
I had a point here somewhere.
Does anyone else feel that certain new elements in pvp, namely doffs and consumables, are so strong that if you don't take advantage of them you are putting yourself at a substantial disadvantage? And if you do believe this is true do you think that that is okay?
boy does my tac excelsior like having ET3 and A2S3 every 15 seconds. 2 copies of TT for the price of 1 is always handy too, wile not giving up my LT and LTC tac powers for another copy. this along with the shield distribute doff nearly double my total survivability.
Personally what I'd least like to face in order starting from least:
1. All Lock box team (escort & dps cruiser, not sure the galor is though) w/consoles
2. All phaser team
3. a. 3 or more cross healing Fed carriers (mainly b/c of phaser proc et al pets)
b. 3 or more cross healing KDF carriers (immunity console & trics & cronts et al pets)
4. Team of C-Store console spam
5. Team of all +1 C-Store ships
6. Team of all sci caps who spam lots of sci & mines to lag the TRIBBLE out of my older vid card
7. Tet glider team
8. OP doffs (some seem ok others aren't working as intended or are just OP by design)
As far as doffs go one problem is things still aren't working as dev intended. The dev stated the goal was to require 3 purp doffs (for those which stacked) to achieve the max effect. So, for example if you wanted to max TT cooldown you'd have to use 3 purp doffs. Last I checked this stuff was still buggy and double ticked effects. A second problem as has been mentioned is Doffs which are just too effective. 1 Shield distribution doff has more healing then Transfer shields 3 last I checked. Warp Core Eng gives up to +25 power to all systems each proc. Then theirs the flight deck doffs ...
As far as using/abusing OP stuff I go back & forth, but personally I prefer to not do so as a rule of thumb. On the otherhand I have no problem fighting fire w/fire and even doing so in what I feel is the most annoying way possible depending on what I'm having to put up with.
This is just it! If we have enough OP stacking doffs, they will no longer be OP!
Ok, for a straight copy-paste escort or cruiser that most people fly, having 3 copies of Vog the Faithless (shield) may be the best thing... but wait, if you want to half the CD of your team, you need 3 other doffs! And so on...
IMO, the only problem with doffs is that many of them are UP (underpowered). In a good and entertaining doff system, I want to have to choose between 15 different doffs, and I want having to give up any of those 15 doffs to be painful to me.
Just imagine if they were to let the warp core engineer be slotted 3 times... Each one giving a 20% chance of increased power when using EPtoX.. You're in a cruiser, and you want 3 of those guys, 3 shield guys, and 3 guys helping your engineering team (and maybe even some guys helping your sci or tac teams). Now you will have to choose! I really love how the doff system has given us the chance to further customize our ships, in a way that has direct and noticable effect on gameplay. I would hate for the doff system to be reduced to a barely noticeable effect.
But at the end of the day, there's nothing anyone can do here except talk about ways of bringing them down.
I love doffing (it's shamefully addictive) but it would have been much easier to balance them if you couldn't stack any. Think of how much more easily you could adjust stats if you only had to worry about the effects of one rather than up to three. They could have even made a more complex system where you could only use one purple of a type, two blues, three greens or four whites of a single type to equal the same effect. I don't know, there are lots of ways doffs could be adjusted to add flavor without making them a necessity.
I wouldn't object to doffs being disabled in PvP or having matches where people controlled usage like other powers (this would be incredibly difficult to police for some). Still, I would prefer adjustments to the system itself.