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Science is Nerfed? Not really...

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
edited September 2012 in Federation Discussion
So with all that talk about science ships being 'useless' in STFs and the almighty DPS is king, the others that say science is nerfed.. I decided to take one of my never-played toons and respec her for a science vessel.

I had a concept that the science ship would make for a very fast and agile light cruiser of sorts and while it may not be as tanky as a cruiser it doesn't need to be if it can dictate the range and angle of the engagement.

More importantly I also wanted a science-heavy ship so I could do crowd control at a moment's notice and not rely on anyone else's support in STFs. Many pilots are great at DPS in public queue STFs but not so great at situational awareness and managing aggro from what I've seen over the past few months.

So the science vessel of mine is designed to do two things:

- Save or ensure Optional completion by preemptive 'riot control' ability
- Debuff or power drain anything that has a chance to cause serious damage to own ship or team

Because I chose the RSV I also got the benefit of an assault cruiser's tactical boff configuration, and with my character fully specialized in projectile weapons damage, I never felt damage was wanting. This ship acts like a fast attack submarine and littoral combat ship all in one.

Infact, the science ship has to be my favorite platform for STFs now. And appearances aside, it tanks very well due to the science vessel shield bonus. Half the time, my hull heals and TSS are donated to other players, and like an escort I can fly or maneuver way faster than larger ships and use that speed to manage aggro. Surprisingly, it appears to be able to dodge plasma beams from Borg tactical cubes.

And just to add on to the notion that 'science ships are awesome', well, here's how it looks flying STFs:

Recon / Attack Science Vessel STF Trials

Updated with YouTube encoder error fixed on 21 May 2012.
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    I'll post The Tick's Gorn SV build later. It's a DPS sci synonymous to a poisoned porcupine. Did it to teach Feds their complaints about KDF carriers being "OP" these last two years were not always true, by beating them in their Atrox's. It did well in a tournament about a month ago.

    Thinking about making a version with more roots to be better at crowd control in STFs. Just takes training a Bo so I can swap from PvP to STF. Would also give me more flexibility in PvP play too.

    Later though, now I need sleep.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    Sounds good. If there's one KDF c-store ship I want to buy when I do level up my KDF toon, it's one of the Gorn SVs.

    EDIT: Despite two re-uploads, YouTube insists on TRIBBLE up the video encoding. I'll try re uploading on a different network on Monday.

    I use the same format and video compression every week so I don't think the issue lies on my end.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    carmenara wrote:
    So with all that talk about science ships being 'useless' in STFs and the almighty DPS is king, the others that say science is nerfed.. I decided to take one of my never-played toons and respec her for a science vessel.

    I had a concept that the science ship would make for a very fast and agile light cruiser of sorts and while it may not be as tanky as a cruiser it doesn't need to be if it can dictate the range and angle of the engagement.

    More importantly I also wanted a science-heavy ship so I could do crowd control at a moment's notice and not rely on anyone else's support in STFs. Many pilots are great at DPS in public queue STFs but not so great at situational awareness and managing aggro from what I've seen over the past few months.

    So the science vessel of mine is designed to do two things:

    - Save or ensure Optional completion by preemptive 'riot control' ability
    - Debuff or power drain anything that has a chance to cause serious damage to own ship or team

    Because I chose the RSV I also got the benefit of an assault cruiser's tactical boff configuration, and with my character fully specialized in projectile weapons damage, I never felt damage was wanting. This ship acts like a fast attack submarine and littoral combat ship all in one.

    Infact, the science ship has to be my favorite platform for STFs now. And appearances aside, it tanks very well due to the science vessel shield bonus. Half the time, my hull heals and TSS are donated to other players, and like an escort I can fly or maneuver way faster than larger ships and use that speed to manage aggro. Surprisingly, it appears to be able to dodge plasma beams from Borg tactical cubes.

    And just to add on to the notion that 'science ships are awesome', well, here's how it looks flying STFs:

    Recon / Attack Science Vessel STF Trials

    Did you speed up the player frame rate on that video? Those ships, especially that Galaxy-X were turning on thier axis way too quick.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    whamhammer wrote: »
    Did you speed up the player frame rate on that video? Those ships, especially that Galaxy-X were turning on thier axis way too quick.

    You have to or else each combat scene takes something like 5 minutes making for very boring watching. I've done real time or near real time before, in my earlier videos. They're a bit pointless due to the excessive length.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    I've bounced between the Nebula and DSSV and both can be used to excellent effect as well, although my Neb' tends to use a universal slot for engineer boffs unless science stuffs really needed, its nice to have that flexibility.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    The Nebula looks good for the role I wish my science ships to play, to tell the truth. Your recommendation makes a lot of sense for the universaf Boff too.

    I don't need the 'excessive' near escort levels of maneuverability because things don't move very fast at all in STFs.

    To top it all off there's already an effective high performance build for the Nebula. But I will probably stick to my RSV because most importantly its a concept that works and its satisfying proving that science works wonders.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    I have been playing around with the idea of a science admiral in a science based ship. You were one of the people kind enough to make a contribution to that thread(sad little science admiral).

    At the end of of the day I realized that there were non science ships that could be used to good effect with the character but it was more important to me to have an orthodox(science platform). It just felt right.

    I did try out the nebula and think there is a lot worth examining (you did bring up the universal chair on the bridge and this is probably what really opens up the vessel to some multi role capabilities and flexibility)

    I settled on the retrofitted Intrepid. I couldn't get away from that desire to have near escort maneuverability (I haven't tried STFs or any of the higher end more competitive play so I haven't built for the parameters I'd require in that role). I think that high maneuverability becomes more critical to a ship the more it moves toward a truly dedicated science role. With science interference and interrupt capabilities occuring off of the forward quarter it becomes critical to be able to achieve that facing on the opposition.

    There are some abilities/devices that can compensate for a lower movement and turn rate but the payout detracts from their function. When my science abilities occur/affect within a "window" (90 deg fwd arc) I'm compounding the likelihood of failure by introducing other variables. Speed is a constant excepting crippled engines but evasive maneuvers or deuterium tanks are either limited by cooldowns or consumable.

    The other area where maneuverability has paid dividends is in the secondary/support role. Obviously I don't play at the competitive level that others posters do so take my analysis with a grain of salt. A fast science vessel is a great outrider able to exploit vunerabilities in the opposition and open then up to it's team (in the wimpy PvE events I do play with:)). I don't heal but dropping enemy shields, weapons, or dumping their buffs at the right time is making a contribution to the "greater good". Throwing up an scattering field in proximity to friendlys is helpful.

    The build I've been playing around with has been fun and that was my main criteria. My hull is a bit on the eggshell side but for the most part the shields and occasional brace can keep me in the fight surprisingly well.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    carmenara wrote:
    The Nebula looks good for the role I wish my science ships to play, to tell the truth. Your recommendation makes a lot of sense for the universaf Boff too.

    I don't need the 'excessive' near escort levels of maneuverability because things don't move very fast at all in STFs.

    To top it all off there's already an effective high performance build for the Nebula. But I will probably stick to my RSV because most importantly its a concept that works and its satisfying proving that science works wonders.

    I'm not trying to get you out of the RSV. I just wanted to present that the Nebula is a science ship that has a great deal of utility for a science ship, albiet different characteristics from most science ships.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    The build I've been playing around with has been fun and that was my main criteria. My hull is a bit on the eggshell side but for the most part the shields and occasional brace can keep me in the fight surprisingly well.


    Thanks for your interest in proving the concept of "Science First" as Starfleet is supposed to be.

    And from a week of putting my RSV through the worst possible scenarios and emerging with nary a scratch, I hope the following tips are applicable to you: -

    1) Hull is paper thin but with one Monotanium Armor and one Injector Assembly (3.5-3.8) the ship can survive Borg torpedo hits or otherwise stay fast enough that enemy fire does not hit the same shield facing repeatedly. And science ships, with the right supporting Boff powers and character skill assignment, have extremely great shield potential. Covariant shielding can give you near 9.5k shield hitpoints per facing, and even the less resilient shields like the STF Omega set can give 7.1k per facing. I use the Omega shields for maximum combat speed (it has a 'afterburner' ability to channel energy to engines under fire) and Jem'Hadar engines for a maximum bonus of +10 to weapons power (using Polaron and Phased Polaron beams.)

    I also have the Omega deflector for improved weapons accuracy and having 2x Omega components means superior shield destructive ability thanks to the Tetryon Rider function. WIth maximum Flow Capacitor captain's skill, Tetryon Rider + Subsystem Targeting makes for effective direct-fire subsystem and shield disablement.

    2) Science ships may not be very powerful alone in the damage dealing department but having the ability to turn fast means I can unmask both front and rear torpedo tubes alternatively and fire a lot of torpedoes on a single target, or a group of targets with the Torpedo Spread ability. Indeed a lot of successful science
    builds rely on torpedoes.

    On certain maps (and especially STFs) if you gravwell a bunch of hostiles together and torpedo spread them you can do massive damage with either photon or quantum torpedoes. Grav'ed enemies are also easy targets for torpedo spreads and cannon salvoes from friendly vessels and can help the team save a lot of time.

    On Elite STFs it's a chore to hunt down 4-6 Borg Spheres (each with something like 90k hitpoints!) individually. But, if a science ship or MVAE + Gravwell I can bunch them up together at a strategic location the whole team can unload on them simultaneously and get rid of them in short order.

    Thus to conclude this point I would say that a science ship can make itself useful in a challenging scenario if its powers can be used collaboratively. By itself a science ship like Voyager does output a modest "light cruiser" level of firepower but with area control and power drain abilities it can play a decisive role to secure victory for the scenario.

    I tend to use the 'attack submarine' doctrine with the RSV. First to fly into battle, max auxiliary power and deploy a Tyken's Rift II or III to drain power from an enemy capital target. Drain power from enemy escorts with subsystem attacks and a Power Siphon I or II, then finish it up with a large volley of photon torpedoes from both front and rear tubes (with at least 2 rare Projectile Weapon Officers the torpedo fire rate is formidable indeed).

    When firing rear torpedoes, certain science abilities can be fired at targets 'over the shoulder' - such as Power Siphon. So manage your deflector powers so that you have a one power activated every 15 seconds. (in this case, it's obviously Tyken - Power Siphon - Gravwell)

    The enemy will of course target me first but with shield buffs and Emergency Power to Shields I can take it effortlessly and withdraw behind the battle line, spin around and start generating gravwells, do area control with repulsors, send a hazard emitter and transfer shield strength off to a friendly assault ship, donate a tactical team to boost a Defiant class, etc.

    With extensive assault cruiser piloting time I am capable of sending out a large number of team heals/buffs to friendly ships while producing maximum combat power, and in a science ship I actually feel I contribute much more to the team thanks to its innate suppression and area control capability.

    What I also like about the RSV (and the Long Range Science Vessel you'll be captaining) is its surprising ability to 'dogfight'. With a polarized hull I am immune to tractor beams; I screen friendly ships by deliberately moving into tractor beam range of the Borg, shrugging off all their attacks and then flying back out to high speed skirmishing range.

    You have to think a bit like a Klingon Raider to get the best out of a science ship's "excessive" agility. Turnrate by itself doesn't matter to me but speed and more speed is wonderful not just for the additional defence bonus, but the ability to 'tactically relocate' to fire torpedoes down destroyed shield facings making the best out of the 6 weapon slots I have.

    There are a lot of hi-power science ship builds out there; especially great is Cygone's Nebula build, but I ended up having something just as effective and suited to my tactical habits - an RSV in the right hands can be a formidable "mock Bird of Prey", or in Federation (SFB tabletop) terms, fast strike cruiser.

    I realize I'm saying a lot of possibly controversial things about preferring a 'lowly' science ship over the 'optimal' endgame choice of a heavy cruiser or escort with dual heavy cannons, but every player has their own optimal style and its the captain, not the machinery, that makes the ship work as an effective weapon system.

    If you're ever online around EST mornings (weekdays) or PST evenings on weekends I'll be happy to run some cooperative elite missions or ESTFs and share some aspects of fast attack 'assault science vessel' doctrine.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    I'm glad people are starting to relize that a Sci/Sci setup is not as useless as folk claim it is. Truthfully, its not that sci abilities are nerfed, its that people either don't know how to spec their toons, setup their BOFFs, or use their powers effectively. I fly an Intrepid-R & I love flying it in PVP, & even some STFs. I have very little problems with it, in fact I can put out some impressive (at least to me) damage & kill numbers, even with only 6 weapon slots.

    Here's my build:
    Fore:
    Polaron Cannon Mk XII [Acc]x3
    Polaron Beam Array Mk XII [Acc]x2 [CritH]
    Chroniton Torpedo Launcher Mk XII [Acc]x2 [CritH]
    Rear:
    Polaron Beam Array Mk XII [Acc]x2 [CritH]
    Polaron Beam Array Mk XII [Acc] [CritH] [Dmg]
    Hargh'Peng Torpedo Launcher Mk XI

    Omega Force Tachyon Deflector Array Mk XII
    Assimilated Subtranswarp Engines
    Omega Force Shield Array Mk XII

    Engineering Consoles:
    Assimilated Module
    SIF Generator Mk XI (Rare)
    Neutronium Alloy Mk XI (Rare)
    Science Consoles:
    Ablative Generator
    Point Defense System
    Field Generator Mk XI (Rare) x2
    Tactical Consoles:
    Polaron Phase Modulator Mk XI (Rare) x2

    Sci BOFF Abilities:
    HE1; PH1; TSS1; TykR1; TB2; FBP2; ScT3; PSW3
    Tac Abilities:
    FAW1; TorSp2
    Eng Abilities:
    EPTS1; RSP1

    DOFFs:
    2 Projectile Weapons
    Shield Distribution
    Tractor Beam Officer
    Development Lab Scientist
    (All Very Rare)

    Of course I have a Sub Nuc beam & I'm fully spec'ed into Flow Capacitors. I run the Omega Force shield & deflector because I've found that Tetryon Glider is more effective than the Polaron damage boost from the Jem'Hadar set. Also, with the Borg console & engine, I get the 2 piece set bonus of the "Autonomous Regeneration Sequencer" (free hull heal). I also have other BOFFs / DOFFs with other abilities that I can swap out if the circumstances call for it. My aim is not to be a pure healer or damage dealer. I'm geared to debuff the enemy & leave them open for further attack. If they pop in the process then "yay me". I'm not much of a healer but I throw them out if / when I can. My setup is effective for me & I like it. If it helps anyone else, then great. I like my Sci Captain & I like my Sci Ship. Thats all I have to say about that...;)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    I got some discussion points for the above science vessel build. I'll write more when I have time.

    In the meantime, I managed to work around the encoding errors that YouTube kept creating in my video.

    New link for RSV shakedown cruise video
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=veDePT8mzgo

    The above video demonstrates for the first part, random awesomeness, and in part 2, high speed long and short range skirmishing.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    I think the science nerf is more of a PvP issue Carmen. I doubt the Borg are putting all their skill points into resistance. Well Ill put it another way. They didnt nerf science. They actually buffed resistance.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    Ren_Arcen wrote:
    I'm glad people are starting to relize that a Sci/Sci setup is not as useless as folk claim it is. Truthfully, its not that sci abilities are nerfed, its that people either don't know how to spec their toons, setup their BOFFs, or use their powers effectively.


    I agree with this to a point, but they sci powers do seem less effective in comparison to a like amount of skill investment in tactical or engineering. There just isn't as much 'bang for your buck' from them. And while my Neb is one of my favorite ships, it's just not as effective as my tac cruiser or escort, thus, I mission in it, but would never punish my team by bringing it to an stf. It feels irresponsible to me. The situational abilities of a sci officer are fun, but not terrible effective vs a like investment on either a tac or an eng.

    I'm not saying this at all to be trolling, I spent the first four months on this game doing everything I could to make my sci competitive and spent a great deal of time on these forums learning about their abilities and ship builds/boff assignments. When you say "sci nerfed? Not really", my response after all of that work has to be "Yes, really".
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    I agree with this to a point, but they sci powers do seem less effective in comparison to a like amount of skill investment in tactical or engineering. There just isn't as much 'bang for your buck' from them. And while my Neb is one of my favorite ships, it's just not as effective as my tac cruiser or escort, thus, I mission in it, but would never punish my team by bringing it to an stf. It feels irresponsible to me. The situational abilities of a sci officer are fun, but not terrible effective vs a like investment on either a tac or an eng.

    I'm not saying this at all to be trolling, I spent the first four months on this game doing everything I could to make my sci competitive and spent a great deal of time on these forums learning about their abilities and ship builds/boff assignments. When you say "sci nerfed? Not really", my response after all of that work has to be "Yes, really".

    Science isn't about damage though so the bang that you see is just the surface, Tac abilities only deal damage to the target (or only debuff the target) whereas Science abilities will usually damage and hold/ drain/ confuse/ placate the target at the same time, the problem is that confusing or placating an NPC is pretty much pointless so the only really useful abilities for Science ships in STFs are holds and power drains.
    These work pretty well but they also rely on the rest of the group having the intelligence to notice that you've just left the Tac Cube sitting immobile with no shields, low weapons power and an anomaly destroying all HY torpedoes for the next 17 seconds so they really need to get on it quickly. When they do then you've just protected the Escorts from energy weapons fire (by draining weapons power), helped them get damage straight to hull instead of having to burn through a huge HP pool of Shields, reduced the Cubes own drains (by reducing its Aux power) and will also be carrying enough heals to support a Tac Escort through all but the nastiest invisible one shot whilst it finishes what you started.

    Of course, most Science ships don't bother to debuff or support so become little more than Science heavy Cruisers with two missing weapons slots, becoming as useful as the Cruisers that also bring nothing but low damage and just throw heals at themselves whilst the Tac Escorts constantly run out of range to heal themselves.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    I recently discovered how much fun the RSV can be, as I got one for an alternate toon and was swiftly hooked. Both of my main toons are tactical captains (not the smartest thing, but I'm working on leveling up more alternates), but in elite STF's I still have a couple of beefs with science...for instance, it seems impossible to take down Donatra's cloaking ability. Teammates and I have tried a whole slew of things that are supposed to disable cloaking devices and they simply don't work. I do also feel that a number of science abilities could use a boost...some of the less-often-used ones...to bring more variety. Anybody know if Viral Matrix does much against borg NPC's? Photonic Shockwave also seems underwhelming. Of course, I'm mainly a tac player so that is going to affect things.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    I recently discovered how much fun the RSV can be, as I got one for an alternate toon and was swiftly hooked. Both of my main toons are tactical captains (not the smartest thing, but I'm working on leveling up more alternates), but in elite STF's I still have a couple of beefs with science...for instance, it seems impossible to take down Donatra's cloaking ability. Teammates and I have tried a whole slew of things that are supposed to disable cloaking devices and they simply don't work. I do also feel that a number of science abilities could use a boost...some of the less-often-used ones...to bring more variety. Anybody know if Viral Matrix does much against borg NPC's? Photonic Shockwave also seems underwhelming. Of course, I'm mainly a tac player so that is going to affect things.

    Viral Matrix is pretty much useless against any NPCs because the only threat they pose is through there kinetic weapons, something VM has no effect on. Getting a lucky Shield Offline might be nice but other than that VM won't do anything noticeable to an NPC as they don't actually use any of those power levels.

    Donatra's cloak is a cheat, it's not affected by the usual abilities that disable cloak. Reducing her Aux (and increasing yours) helps a little but unless you're right on top of her she'll just cloak and be invisible. Even disables like CPB and EWP don't work against her.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    Militis wrote: »
    Science isn't about damage though

    This is correct. It is also why sci powers are meaningless in this game, where ONLY dps matters. Sadly, I have performed the escort vs escort with bel team experiment, and in every case with two exceptions, a team is far better off having an escort in place of a science character and ship. Take that with a grain of salt, as it is only the sum of my experience, but as I mentioned, I went out of my way for a good long while trying to make it work. The system behind the skill setup is just too poorly designed.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    This is correct. It is also why sci powers are meaningless in this game, where ONLY dps matters. Sadly, I have performed the escort vs escort with bel team experiment, and in every case with two exceptions, a team is far better off having an escort in place of a science character and ship. Take that with a grain of salt, as it is only the sum of my experience, but as I mentioned, I went out of my way for a good long while trying to make it work. The system behind the skill setup is just too poorly designed.

    I'd argue that the problem is with the way the PvE, and STFs in particular are arranged as a kill timer is always going to benefit the DPS class. If the Probes in KA Space couldn't be destroyed but weren't allowed to pass through the gate (just a simple example) then Science and Engineering CC abilities would be much more in demand but for all the STFs it's a pure damage thing with CC not really required unless the group is bad and the control is needed to tidy up the mess, which will usually be a PuG..
    I can see the problem they had; with PuGs also having access there's a huge performance gap between the worst PuG and the best pre formed Fleet group yet they're all doing the same things with the same difficulty, what's impossible for one will be too easy for the other.

    I still don't agree that Science abilities are useless though. I play both my characters in Escorts and Sciience and my job as an Escort is always far easier with a good Science ship debuffing the target and passing the occasional heal. A Cruiser holding aggro also works well but most don't bother so the damage dealing Escort will usually get it instead and I can't hold aggro on a Tac Cube for long and hope to survive (unless the Science ship has it neutered, something that they can still do very well). Probably just a personal preference but I can't think of anywhere that a Science ship would be a hindrance, even if it wouldn't perhaps be the best choice.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    Militis wrote: »
    Donatra's cloak is a cheat, it's not affected by the usual abilities that disable cloak. Reducing her Aux (and increasing yours) helps a little but unless you're right on top of her she'll just cloak and be invisible. Even disables like CPB and EWP don't work against her.

    It doesn't disable it, but I find if I drop a GW on her it does reduce the duration of her cloak significantly.

    Sometimes, it limits her cloak to only a handful of seconds.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    My main flies an RSV and throwing out GWs and TBRs I find far more amusing than yet another CRF volley in my alt's escort, if not as efficient. However, I can't think of any situation in this game where, in the hands of an average player, a sci ship is the BEST ship for the role. The closest I can come up with is guarding the Kang in Cure Space. You can load up on heals and crowd-control abilities, but even then eventually you need to kill the attackers, and do so quickly before another wave comes from another direction. A cruiser carries more firepower and as many or more heals, and an escort can just intercept the attackers before healing ever becomes necessary.

    Pilots can certainly make science work, and it can be a lot of fun to use, but from a numbers point of view, why would you? Someone else can always do it better. To me, thats disappointing, if not exactly a nerf.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    ReginaMala wrote: »
    My main flies an RSV and throwing out GWs and TBRs I find far more amusing than yet another CRF volley in my alt's escort, if not as efficient. However, I can't think of any situation in this game where, in the hands of an average player, a sci ship is the BEST ship for the role. The closest I can come up with is guarding the Kang in Cure Space. You can load up on heals and crowd-control abilities, but even then eventually you need to kill the attackers, and do so quickly before another wave comes from another direction. A cruiser carries more firepower and as many or more heals, and an escort can just intercept the attackers before healing ever becomes necessary.

    Pilots can certainly make science work, and it can be a lot of fun to use, but from a numbers point of view, why would you? Someone else can always do it better. To me, thats disappointing, if not exactly a nerf.


    This is pretty much the problem. If I need to adopt a healing posture, I put my tac captain in a tac oddy and am still able to do significant damage as well as heal, and not be punished as harshly as forcing my group to deal with my science vessel. The game's challenges are not complex or forward thinking enough to include anything but the most basic of MMO designs. Pure DPS is the most useful currency in any STF. Where a squad could include four escorts and a science vessel, it would always be better served by having five escorts and no science vessel. This is not the fault of the players that created a science officer, it's the fault of the game's design for invalidating that choice with weak powers, minimal control options and no real role.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    The game's challenges are not complex or forward thinking enough to include anything but the most basic of MMO designs.....It's the fault of the game's design for invalidating that choice with weak powers, minimal control options and no real role.

    Did get me thinking about scenarios though where science would excel. I don't want to just comment without having an alternative idea, as then it just comes off as whining.

    Giant Iconian planet-killer doom-ship heading for a colony world mid evactuation. It has like 75% damage resistance, 5 million HP, and is throwing on some absurdly jacked up version of EPTS, A2SIF, and TT as fast as they cool down. Its own weapons are moderate but well geared to taking out fast attackers, multiple FAW and TBR and Subnuc. Its also throwing out wave after wave of fighters and light escorts that beline for the civilians and need mass swatting. If it gets to the planet before the evacuation finishes, everyone dies and the missions fails. Even the 5 best escort pilots in the STO can't put out enough damage to simply kill it before it arrives. On the other hand a durability-oriented cruiser can aggro and tank it, draw it off, keep it busy, FAW the fighters, etc. Or if your team is fortunate you have a sci ship with Power Syphon, Tyken's Rift, Gravity Well, TBR, and/or Tractor Beam, and you can just lock the ship down long enough for the evacuation to finish. For escorts, the most important role is to keep the fighters off the civilians and the heavier ships, to escort them. The idea is that instead of scenarios where success is about how quickly the player can act, instead go the opposite direction and try and cost the AI that same precious time.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    ReginaMala wrote: »
    Did get me thinking about scenarios though where science would excel. I don't want to just comment without having an alternative idea, as then it just comes off as whining.

    Giant Iconian planet-killer doom-ship heading for a colony world mid evactuation. It has like 75% damage resistance, 5 million HP, and is throwing on some absurdly jacked up version of EPTS, A2SIF, and TT as fast as they cool down. Its own weapons are moderate but well geared to taking out fast attackers, multiple FAW and TBR and Subnuc. Its also throwing out wave after wave of fighters and light escorts that beline for the civilians and need mass swatting. If it gets to the planet before the evacuation finishes, everyone dies and the missions fails. Even the 5 best escort pilots in the STO can't put out enough damage to simply kill it before it arrives. On the other hand a durability-oriented cruiser can aggro and tank it, draw it off, keep it busy, FAW the fighters, etc. Or if your team is fortunate you have a sci ship with Power Syphon, Tyken's Rift, Gravity Well, TBR, and/or Tractor Beam, and you can just lock the ship down long enough for the evacuation to finish. For escorts, the most important role is to keep the fighters off the civilians and the heavier ships, to escort them. The idea is that instead of scenarios where success is about how quickly the player can act, instead go the opposite direction and try and cost the AI that same precious time.

    Ideas like this are similar to ones we've tossed around before, the problem there is again game's mechanics. I have thought of several scenarios that would reward a science character, but in the end, all boiled down, it comes to the same thing. This game's engine isn't complex enough to allow for more complicated or involved mechanics or tactics as it stands. DPS and only DPS matters.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    Escort > Science > crusier always... science vessals are awesome they definatly have not been nerfed!:)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    Granted, I'm "only" playing in Normal STFs right now, but even my "noob" Polaron-oriented Sci vessel (the freebie one with the 2 tacs) with the Breen set was "holding it's own" in stuffing a probe train on KA, and helped a carrier one day in an epic save on Infected when someone blew a generator too early.

    The problem with AoEs and CCs is that they "scale" with the number of targets they hit. For example, GW III. IIRC, against a target with a downed shield, a GW III does something around the order of a torp hit's equivalent in damage (say, 3000 damage). That, and it slaps a 10-20 second "hold" on the target.

    While this doesn't sound like much, throw this into the path of a 4 probe group that's running to the gate in KAS (Normal). After a BFaW (supplemented by EPtW) and torp spread knock down the whole groups shields, the GW now does that "torp hit" to all 4 targets. The hold effect runs long enough for my "weaker" 2 array/1 torp/1 turret forward loadout to wipe out one, usually 2 of these "damaged" probes completely. The third tends to pop before it threatens to pass me, and the 4th usually needs a tractor beam (or friendly assist) to keep it from passing me by, but the damage is enough to let me pop that during the tractor...

    Yeah, once the groups are 4 staggered probes / 2 spheres on KA, then a lone ship starts to have problems. However, I don't think that even a full blown DPS escort can pop the 4 probes by themselves and deal with the spheres. I usually manage to shield tank the spheres long enough for the probes to pop, and (hopefully) my escort / cruiser buddies to draw some aggro off of me (since I'm the initial attention getter with the initial BFaW / Spread...)

    Therefore, my viewpoint still stands. One on one, Sci = nerfed. Due to posessing the "smallest" DPS rate of the 3 classes, both burst and sustained. Trying to hold off a crowd, Sci creeps close on DPS, but also has the tendency to keep smaller targets tied up enough for them to solo the small things while the heavy hitters are popping big targets...
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    i just have my carrier play the science role since its basically a science vessel with added hull strength and 2 hangars.

    my main ship was always the Tier III Long Range Science Vessel.

    I had thought about getting the Deep Space, but silly me i chose the star cruiser. I still have all my science abilities with the carrier like science fleet and that big blue ring thingy -forget what its called-. Anyway, my carrier is built for science but because it has a Lt. Comm engineer station, im also using Extend Shields to help those escorts who think they can take on a borg cube and several spheres at once. I don't think my carrier would do well in PvP -but i dont do pvp- so i wouldnt know.

    I might invest in power siphon drones but im happy with the extra DPS i get from my advanced peregrine fighters.

    Carrier just lacks the turn rate of a science vessel, but small price to pay for extra hull strength and bonus auxiliary along with some consoles to boast auxiliary for shorter cooldowns on my fighters
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    i just have my carrier play the science role since its basically a science vessel with added hull strength and 2 hangars.

    my main ship was always the Tier III Long Range Science Vessel.

    I had thought about getting the Deep Space, but silly me i chose the star cruiser. I still have all my science abilities with the carrier like science fleet and that big blue ring thingy -forget what its called-. Anyway, my carrier is built for science but because it has a Lt. Comm engineer station, im also using Extend Shields to help those escorts who think they can take on a borg cube and several spheres at once. I don't think my carrier would do well in PvP -but i dont do pvp- so i wouldnt know.

    I might invest in power siphon drones but im happy with the extra DPS i get from my advanced peregrine fighters.

    Carrier just lacks the turn rate of a science vessel, but small price to pay for extra hull strength and bonus auxiliary along with some consoles to boast auxiliary for shorter cooldowns on my fighters


    Interesting side discussion. Thanks for bringing the carrier up :)

    I was invited to 'retrofit' a carrier the other day to try and increase its survivability. I gave it the dual Monotanium armor from my cruiser builds to make it almost torpedo proof, and dual EPTS for shield redundancy, etc.

    Then I slapped on the same science abilities I used for my RSVs - dual gravity wells, Tyken's Rift, repulsor beam, PH1.

    It became a pretty good area control ship by itself. Worked very well.

    Science by itself doesn't create impressive damage floaters but in a PUG a science ship can guarantee victory despite how badly your PUG teammates sometimes TRIBBLE up the STF.

    Missed 10%? No problem, perma-gravwell the nanite spheres. Someone aggro the cube? Tyken's Rift, Power Siphon and disable the weapons. New cadet pilots need more DPS to demolish structures? Sure, spam torpedoes (and you can spam a lot of them with multiple rare projectile officers).

    Sure, you could just bring a max DPS MVAE to the fray and save the map by speed blasting everything, but to me there are more entertaining alternatives than just maxing out DPS. Been there done that with my Tactical character anyway.

    I don't believe in whining about "noobs TRIBBLE up the STF". I create ship builds to guarantee victory for the team. In a PUG environment, science is a great force multiplier with unique area control capabilities to support cadet pilots so they can have the benefit of time to learn to become great pilots and still win the STF because a veteran science Captain knows how to permanently immobilize enemy spawns or make certain enemies harmless to the team.

    And indeed like in the quoted post you can mix science with raw damage, either using a carrier, or the c-store Prometheus. Best of both worlds?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    I am nowhere near a "perfect" build on my science VA but I am having more fun with this captain than the other two types. I've continued operating the intrepid ship and it has accounted for itself quite well given the middling competencies of the captain (more so her player:))

    I have been using TR and GW heavily as a means of area control. While my DPS is..weak the compromising positions I place the enemy in seem to be fair compensation. The tractor beam has been another beautiful binder. The effectiveness of the aforementioned abilities has really improved with a space duty roster that compliments the abilities.

    I fly a tarpit. The other science investments I made were primarily in the preservation of my vessel. My shields are sitting at over 13,000 a facing and having a proactive tac team stops all but the most agressive PvE from breaching them.

    To give me a better understanding of threats I checked out a game of PvP. I was a bit uncomfortable when I went in because it was a "new game" for me and I had expected a bit of a horror story. I landed on a 4 man fed team playing against a klink team(everybody else had team banners so I figured I was going to be the wildebeest that was going to be culled from the herd. I died twice and both kills were very early in the game. I came in very cautious and let the enemy take the initiative. An energy siphon was deployed against me almost immediatly but I had gone heavy on insulators and squandered a console slot on further protection so the effect was negligible to my power levels.

    After my second death I moved in on the other vessels on my team and ran more agressive support. My DPS amounted to nothing and I only logged a single kill in the match but prostrating enemy vessels was contributing something. The beauty of it was having the victims of my science muggings suddenly shift focus from the DPS ships and try to tear me up hoping they could do it before the the hurty ships vaped their exposed hulls. It felt good to be noticed.

    I like the tricks I'm discovering and I wonder if there are some other abilities worth examining. I do have a science team 1 shield buff that I rarely look at and don't think is necessary; EPS from engineering and keeping the tac team on alert seems suffcient. Are there any trixie little wrenches at that level anyone might suggest?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    I like the tricks I'm discovering and I wonder if there are some other abilities worth examining. I do have a science team 1 shield buff that I rarely look at and don't think is necessary; EPS from engineering and keeping the tac team on alert seems suffcient. Are there any trixie little wrenches at that level anyone might suggest?

    The Power Siphon is incredibly funny. If I see it coming I simply drain them right back with the exact same ability. Since I was an Engineer in a science ship I also have Nadion Inversion which more or less negates it :D

    PvP will require more extensive shield healing than what EPTS can provide - for cruisers we usually use RSP for a brute force 15 second shield heal under fire.

    But a more practical choice for a science vessel is TSS (Transfer shield strength) for a large shield heal over time and damage resistance boost. It works on either allied ships or yourself. I like using Science Team on a Klingon Bird of Prey for supporting a team of other BoPs but for all other ships I tend to use Engineering and Tactical Teams much more so the science team is useless and has the annoying shared cooldown with the other Team abilities.

    So in short you can either have a spare hull heal (Hazard Emitters I) or a TSS1 in place of the rarely used Science Team.

    Also I wouldn't mind teaming up with you for a KvF PvP match or two just to see what kind of science magic you can conjure up. I'll watch your back and annoy Klingons with my Starfleet-version Bird of Prey :)

    For science vessel DPS you either have to do like I do and swap between max weapon power and max auxiliary power (works for PvE only), or go for a torpedo-heavy loadout with 3 turrets in the back. With 2x Omega Set components your Tetryon Rider should be able to strip shields quite effectively provided your Captain is decently specced with Flow Capacitors. It depends on your playstyle really.

    Beams are required if you are making use of subsystem targeting, and science ships are maneuverable enough to use dual beam banks. Go high on your average combat speed, use MACO shields for Power Conduit Link ability and keep your power 'forever' maxed out.

    If you've given up with doing -any- sort of DPS there's always the option of using Chronitron torpedo spreads to annoy people by slowing down their ships making them sitting ducks. I have used this 'attack submarine' doctrine before - fly in fast, spam drain abilities, torpedo spread, run back behind Federation battleline, rinse and repeat. Hmm, and did I mention Klingon Raider tactics before?

    This was quite an old doctrine and depending on the kind of enemies you may be facing, different weapon loadouts may be desired. My Galaxy-R for instance has become an anti-fighter escort with Beam Fire at Will because a lot of FvK matches appear to be scenes out of Battlestar Galactica these days, and if I were to go back to the 'attack' science vessel role it too will ditch torpedoes for beams and extreme high speed.

    Disclaimer: This post is meant to illustrate options, options and lots of options. I don't post builds or 'optimal' loadouts because I believe each Captain has their individual style and it's the idea and effort that counts for enjoying STO beyond the usual min-max grind. Several new pilots on the STFRecruits training channel have requested for such 'essays' to illustrate basic starship engineering, and these posts are intended to be a preliminary response to said requests.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    Actually the Science Nerf is quite real. Gravity Well is great for NPC ships and Pets but does NOTHING to Player Ships (even with full skill and NO resistance on the enemy part). With enough insulators and a number of the STF set pieces energy drain is nearly undetectable. Get a good resistance setup to being held and Tractor Beams only stop you from cloaking and deal a minor bit of damage but cannot HOLD you. Stun effects work for like half a second against almost everyone. Repulsers can barely move a player. Scramble Sensors works for a second or two like VM does. Tachyon Beam is an utter joke. I have no resistance and I have been able to tank TB III with full skill on the enemy without any problem at all.


    Basically there is hardly any good Sci Abilities for PvP anymore if your enemy has ANY skill in resistance even if you have full skill into the powers.
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