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"The Perfect Ten: The truth about lockboxes."

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
edited May 2012 in Ten Forward
I'm growing to like Massively these days...

massively.joystiq.com/2012/05/17/the-perfect-ten-the-truth-about-lockboxes/
1. Lockboxes are gambling, plain and simple.

If anyone tries to refute the above claim to you, then be prepared to listen to a chain of logic so twisted and bent that it's probably been run through a yoga class. The simple truth of all this is that you're plunking down a set amount of real-world money for a possibility of getting a reward you desire. It's gambling.

It's gambling... except it's worse.

You know what would be weird? If you walked into a casino and none of the machines or tables told you the odds. Everything else would be the same: the payout, the mechanics, the money required to play, but no odds. Just give us your money and hope you win but never have a clue how great or small your chances are of actually winning.

That is lockboxes in a nutshell. Nobody's forcing MMO studios to disclose odds, and it's in their best interests to not do it. They wouldn't want to scare away those pocketbooks, after all!

More at the link.
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    every keeps talking about odds....

    There is no gaming commission regulating this. There may be NO ODDs or the odds may not work or they could change the odds at will. To me thats the inherent problem with this this form of "gambling"

    Lets play what if... What if CBS said "only 5% of your playerbase can have a ship" and the boxes ar designed to pay out that many ships.....

    Anyway for me its no longer the LBs that are the issue but the Lobi store..... Every Lobi = $1. So when something costs 200 Lobi thats like saying it costs $200. The expectation is that someone will open 200, 500, 800 boxes. Its a worse gimmick than a ship. Frankly it seems predatory to me.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    1 lobi - 10 cents on average (you get about 10 per box)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    Massively are legal experts now?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    Want to make a statement? Don't buy keys... Or go occupy some where.... that seems to work too right?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    Issueman wrote:
    Want to make a statement? Don't buy keys... Or go occupy some where.... that seems to work too right?

    #occupybajor?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    sollvax wrote:
    1 lobi - 10 cents on average (you get about 10 per box)

    you do? you have statistical proof on that? Seriously, if you do you should post it, otherwise you aren't going to get a lot of traction with it.
    Considering the uproar on the single crystals in the box, I would doubt your claim, because it sure seems like a lot more folks get 1, and not 10, if you use the forums as a reference, which, is all I can, because I will not do anything that can get me a lock box. I haven't played the vault, any of the reruns, anything. Nor, have I spent money on the game. Why? I don't support the lock boxes. Period. I have said and I will say it here, take the costumes out of the Lobi store, put them in the C store, I'll buy them. I will support the game through store purchases on things I want, I will not, however do so via the lock boxes.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    Yikes, this is getting rather heated. I got the impression that TeriLynn's articles were pretty neutral in tone; what triggered all this from Massively?

    Some of the elements in that list are written in a pretty clearly biased point of view -- I get the strong impression the person is an STO player considering the graphic posted there for #1! The author clearly hates lockboxes general and in STO in particular

    I'm wiling to acknowledge the 'It's gambling" point as being hazy -- again, only a court of law can make that determination. But I too am disappointed that the lockbox odds have never been posted; the Nevada Gaming Commission comes down REALLY hard on casinos that don't make this sort of thing abundantly clear, or slot machine manufacturers who don't publish and adhere to the odds.* He's pretty right about how the house always wins, though there is marked more effort in making a Cardassian 'joy-cruiser' as there is an XP potion. The cruiser needs to be modeled, textured, rigged; it needs coding support, it needs systems support; it needs to at least have a token attempt at balancing it. I do find it interesting to delve more into the reasons why so many countries have made such boxes illegal -- is that why PW games are 'banned' from a shopping list of countries? Some of the other points he brings up are rather more subjective than objective.

    He was absolutely spot-on with one thing, though: Lockboxes cheapen any game that adopts them.


    * - Side-note: Some mathematical definitions of 'random' are more desirable in certain circumstances than others. "Chaotic," for example, is not the same as "random."

    I suspect that one of the reasons that Cryptic doesn't publish the lockbox odds is because their random system lacks the rigor of, say, a slot machine, and once you put any iota of data into the playerbase's hands, they will worry over it and gnaw on it and spreadsheet it, and next thing you know there's a database of confirmed drops and they're showing you exactly how your odds-sorted drop table is not as accurate as you thought it was.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    kimmera wrote:
    Massively are legal experts now?

    you're a legal expert now?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    sollvax wrote:
    1 lobi - 10 cents on average (you get about 10 per box)

    2 to 3 is the average you will get.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    V-Mink wrote:
    I suspect that one of the reasons that Cryptic doesn't publish the lockbox odds is because their random system lacks the rigor of, say, a slot machine, and once you put any iota of data into the playerbase's hands, they will worry over it and gnaw on it and spreadsheet it, and next thing you know there's a database of confirmed drops and they're showing you exactly how your odds-sorted drop table is not as accurate as you thought it was.[/I]

    A suspicion which has been previously confirmed by other pseudo-random systems in STO.

    Of course, missing out on an 'Aid the Planet' mission has substantially less financial impact than pouring money into a black hole.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    I do not buy keys with real money. I cannot and will not support this aspect of the game.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    V-Mink wrote:
    Yikes, this is getting rather heated. I got the impression that TeriLynn's articles were pretty neutral in tone; what triggered all this from Massively?

    Some of the elements in that list are written in a pretty clearly biased point of view -- I get the strong impression the person is an STO player considering the graphic posted there for #1! The author clearly hates lockboxes general and in STO in particular

    I'm wiling to acknowledge the 'It's gambling" point as being hazy -- again, only a court of law can make that determination. But I too am disappointed that the lockbox odds have never been posted; the Nevada Gaming Commission comes down REALLY hard on casinos that don't make this sort of thing abundantly clear, or slot machine manufacturers who don't publish and adhere to the odds.* He's pretty right about how the house always wins, though there is marked more effort in making a Cardassian 'joy-cruiser' as there is an XP potion. The cruiser needs to be modeled, textured, rigged; it needs coding support, it needs systems support; it needs to at least have a token attempt at balancing it. I do find it interesting to delve more into the reasons why so many countries have made such boxes illegal -- is that why PW games are 'banned' from a shopping list of countries? Some of the other points he brings up are rather more subjective than objective.

    He was absolutely spot-on with one thing, though: Lockboxes cheapen any game that adopts them.


    * - Side-note: Some mathematical definitions of 'random' are more desirable in certain circumstances than others. "Chaotic," for example, is not the same as "random."

    I suspect that one of the reasons that Cryptic doesn't publish the lockbox odds is because their random system lacks the rigor of, say, a slot machine, and once you put any iota of data into the playerbase's hands, they will worry over it and gnaw on it and spreadsheet it, and next thing you know there's a database of confirmed drops and they're showing you exactly how your odds-sorted drop table is not as accurate as you thought it was.

    it could be they are looking at this as a BIG PICTURE issue..... IF the model succeeds here then other games will just copy it. We are all that stand between Western civiliaztion and the Mongal Horde of the Eastern Game Empire.

    Or they could be big Star Trek fans and cant stand the way IP is being cheapened (further)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2012
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    Chenchuan wrote: »
    it could be they are looking at this as a BIG PICTURE issue..... IF the model succeeds here then other games will just copy it. We are all that stand between Western civiliaztion and the Mongal Horde of the Eastern Game Empire.

    Or they could be big Star Trek fans and cant stand the way IP is being cheapened (further)

    Except STO isn't the only one using Lockboxes. DCUO just put them in a couple months ago, but they are slightly different. There, if you have a sub, you can open the boxes freely with no extra money needed. If you're not paying a sub, then you have to buy their version of keys. As far as I know, they still don't disclose any odds, so it's still a huge problem.

    As far as the Trek IP goes, however, I'm afraid this game is going to be a very black mark on it for a LONG time. They never should have gotten into bed with the Ferengi-run game company they did. They never should have let the game become what it has become. I don't think it's possible to cheapen it further without selling videos of hot Vulcan on Cardassian TRIBBLE.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    Everyone make sure to post a link to this article as the first reply to future lock box announcements =P
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    What do you bet massively planted players in the game to confirm of what we have been saying in the forums. Plus anyone that doesn't have account can read the forums from Google or any other search engine or browser. So my point is that this anger could be from personal experience since it sounds like they are a player i.e. one of us and a not an impartial reporter (which are few and far between in the US Media, but that's for another thread lol).

    So some of these massively folks could be secret players of the game but can't reveal who they work for since they have to comment on the game or maybe in beginning they invited these guys in to put good press for Cryptic and PWE much like a food critic in a restaurant, and if that's true then that PR thing has backfired.

    Just a conspiracy theroy take it for what you will
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    Paging Dr.CDL !

    Dr.CDL , report to the Massively thread Stat !
    Any rumor of Gambling in STO must be squashed ... at all costs .
    Auxiliary & Emergency power to internet lawyering .
    Engage ! :rolleyes:
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    LOL i know that Duck from that old Disney show about Donald's nephews LOL.

    How appropriate;)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    I've been saving every tenth box that I acquire while playing the game in my Fleet Bank. (since the Cardassian LB's came out)

    Don't know why..., I can't afford to open them...

    After reading that article... I guess it's time to stop being subconsciously manipulated..

    I went in game a little while ago and deleted them all.

    I don't really need a D'Kora, never got a Jem-Bug and spent close to $200 dollars to get three Cardie's...

    I bought the Cat Carrier last night using this months stipend as a discount.

    I'll probably only use it a few times, cause I prefer the Excelsior and Oddy...

    ...but at least I don't feel like I was manipulated into spending too much to get it.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    I’d like to see the lock boxes gone completely from STO; however, I know that will never happen.

    What Cryptic could try to do is make the boxes less visible to the players in general.

    Remove the lock boxes has in game drops and sell them in the C-Store for the 100 Cryptic Points that they charge for the Mater Keys now and then deactivate the master keys make the boxes function like the Holiday Gift boxes functioned has in once you buy one they can be opened without a key.

    Then just have a message that pops up each time the player logs in reminding them that the boxes are available for purchase in the C-Store.

    I know that Cryptic won’t do what I suggested above because they need to beat us over the heads with these lock boxes and try to capitalize on those among us that have heavy bank accounts or poor impulse spending control.

    The writer of that article may be bias against Cryptic but that does not make the points brought up the article any less true.

    Cryptic has opened Pandora’s Lock Box and there’s no closing it now.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    V-Mink wrote:
    Yikes, this is getting rather heated. I got the impression that TeriLynn's articles were pretty neutral in tone; what triggered all this from Massively?

    The fact that most F2P MMOs Western or otherwise (including STO and CO) are employing lockbox paradigms these days including MMOs like DCUO and LoTRO (Hell, LoTRO made an anniversary even centered aournd their version of lockboxes.) So, the article isn't just pointing fingers at Cryptic, but every F2P MMO that uses the paradigm.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    I highly doubt that western lawmakers and prosecutors are going to sit idly by forever while these companies blatantly violate their gambling regulations. But, Perfect World is certainly going to try to milk every penny out of gamblers that they can before the law catches up to them, which might take years.

    Even ignoring the legal issues, the boxes just are not fun at all. I do not oppose gambling, but playing poker or blackjack for money is a pretty different experience than plucking down hundreds of dollars for a chance at a few hundred rare pixels. I want to do my real-money gambling in Vegas, not Risa, thank you very much.

    Even once the government cracks down on this, there are still ways to run this kind of scheme and get away with it. They will just have to be more upfront about the real costs associated with it, which probably will mean less revenue.

    For instance, they can have lockboxes for whatever the latest promotional item is, say the Jem'Hadar ship, drop very, very infrequently. If you get one of these drops, you can trade it to another player or pay $150 (or however much they are making on average right now) in the c-store to unlock it. It would still be rare. It would still bring in the same amount of revenue per ship, but at least the gambling aspect would be from gameplay instead of a real-money lotto and people would not be deluded into the gambler's fallacy of "getting lucky".
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    "Never place customer loyalty and satisfaction before profit."
    "Ask not what you can do for your profits, but what your profits can do for you."
    "Feed your greed, but not enough to choke it."
    "Keep your lies consistent."
    "Sell the sizzle, not the steak."
    "Not even dishonesty can tarnish the shine of profit."
    "Let others keep their reputation. You keep their money."
    "Customers are like razor-toothed gree worms. They can be succulent, but sometimes they bite back."
    "Employees are the rungs on the ladder of success, don't hesitate to step on them."
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    From the article:
    Every major MMO I've seen that put [lockboxes] in has suffered a constant forum barrage of angry players yelling at the company

    Ah, come on. They like it when we yell at them. It's the most consistent form of player feedback since the days of beta. They seem to enjoy making all of us angry.

    What would we do on these forums if they didn't constantly give us a reason to yell at them?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    Jake477 wrote:
    What do you bet massively planted players in the game to confirm of what we have been saying in the forums.
    (snip)
    So my point is that this anger could be from personal experience since it sounds like they are a player i.e. one of us and a not an impartial reporter

    Errr ..., they work for a MMO gaming site .
    Is it too hard to imagine that they play ... I dunno ... MMO's ?

    For proof , I offer an article by the same author (Justin Olivetti) , titled "Why I Play: Star Trek Online" -- penned just one month ago , where he fawns about his "softness for Cryptic" .
    A month before that , Massively's own STO columnist Terilynn Shull traveled to Cryptic to cover STO .

    Now I dunno if something happened , or if someone at Massively "woke up" , or if this has anything to do with the unusual consensus between the STO podcasts of late .
    It could very well be aimed at STO because the author is a fan -- and STO is used as an example of a more serious problem across the MMO industry .

    All I know is that in a month or so , we will either see a fawning report on Massively about Season 6 of STO , or we wont .
    Either will be telling .
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    sollvax wrote:
    1 lobi - 10 cents on average (you get about 10 per box)

    Not. Even. Close.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    DaveyNY wrote: »
    I've been saving every tenth box that I acquire while playing the game in my Fleet Bank. (since the Cardassian LB's came out)

    Don't know why..., I can't afford to open them...

    After reading that article... I guess it's time to stop being subconsciously manipulated..

    I went in game a little while ago and deleted them all.

    I don't really need a D'Kora, never got a Jem-Bug and spent close to $200 dollars to get three Cardie's...

    I bought the Cat Carrier last night using this months stipend as a discount.

    I'll probably only use it a few times, cause I prefer the Excelsior and Oddy...

    ...but at least I don't feel like I was manipulated into spending too much to get it.

    This^^^

    I keep a few of the boxes just in case, but most get deleted. Though I may follow your lead and just get rid of them once and for all :D

    This is the ONLY game I play that has lockboxes in it, and that is because it is Star Trek and nothing more.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    SatansHell wrote: »
    This^^^

    I keep a few of the boxes just in case, but most get deleted. Though I may follow your lead and just get rid of them once and for all :D

    This is the ONLY game I play that has lockboxes in it, and that is because it is Star Trek and nothing more.

    I don’t store any lock boxes unless they are gold colored and I have not seen a gold lock box in weeks.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    I "need" every lockbox. Then discard all lockbox/mystery box I come across. Every last one of them.
    I never buy a key or spend 1 cent direct or indirect on this kind of swindle.
    Plain and simple solution, I think.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    Pendra80 wrote: »
    I "need" every lockbox. Then discard all lockbox/mystery box I come across. Every last one of them.
    I never buy a key or spend 1 cent direct or indirect on this kind of swindle.
    Plain and simple solution, I think.

    I would advise you (and others like you) to be very careful about proclaiming your "war on lockboxes" so openly and publicly.

    God forbid Cryptic decides too many boxes are being tossed, and decides to attach a cost to disposing of them, or forcing players to buy keys and open them....

    Just sayin...
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