I just don't think this thread is going to accomplish much more.
And you are completely entitled to your opinion. However every post you make bumps it back to the top of the forum which usually means more replies. You are free to either continue doing that or stop reading it whenever you like. Either way, your personal opinion of the thread should have absolutely nothing to do with whether other people keep discussing it or not
Personally I think that tthe grand nagus is doing a bang up job of keeping the discussion going politely and on topic in the face of severe provocation.
Well done.
How much of this is actually a discussion now?
Not sure what Nagus is hoping to achieve.
I'm no Cryptic fan and they have for over 2 year been caught out many times. Who know's if it's spin, outright lying or change or direction. You have to take whatever the Devs say with a pinch of salt.
This thread started out as 1 person posting a question that was answered and because the answer was not what he wanted to hear or was not answered to his satisfaction, he has thrown the teddy out of the pram and thinks because he is "the one", he should have his question answered.
It was then followed up by pages and pages of a dispute over the word "promise" by the same old Cryptic defence force, showing up to derail the thread.
Chum, I agree that threads that show what has been "promised" and I use the wording the same way you have explained it, are usually buried or moved to the "nothing to read here section" should be highlighted, but on this I question the OPs reasons and I cannot help but think it's just more for the posters own PR and enjoying the fame he gets on the forums.
In a nutshell, what I am hoping to achieve is that in the future they give us the full story, not mislead us with half the story. And as you can see from the link above, I already answered the question you just asked several pages ago in this thread. So if you are going to ask questions that have already been answered, I'll be happy to link you back to what I said, but then you cant turn around and try to pretend that I am the one keeping the conversation going because of your own failure to read what has already been said.
In a nutshell, what I am hoping to achieve is that in the future they give us the full story, not mislead us with half the story. And as you can see from the link above, I already answered the question you just asked several pages ago in this thread. So if you are going to ask questions that have already been answered, I'll be happy to link you back to what I said, but then you cant turn around and claim that I am the one keeping the conversation going.
You are entitled to your opinion, but nonstop whining will get you nowhere.
You are entitled to your opinion, but nonstop whining will get you nowhere.
If you want to call my request not to be mislead whining because you dont have a valid counter point, thats fine with me. It doesnt change the request.
At this point, I'm just hoping my new nickname "Resource Drought" catches on.
Yeah, the pages and pages of "debate" over the word promise was ... an acquired taste in terms of forum reading.
(My smiles are intended as smiles. Because even though I myself am a grumpy old man, the character I draw comic strip adventures for, Superchum, is a very smiley person).
If you want to call my request not to be mislead whining because you dont have a valid counter point, thats fine with me. It doesnt change the request.
You know, you don't really say much in any of your posts do you. If you don't like peoples responses, you dismiss them with a smiley face or some type of sarcastic, smarmy respose.
You lost on this.
In fact not just you, we all lost.
KDF is not going to happen. Romulans, not going to happen. Cardies, never.
You might get one in a lock box, even a ship to fly, in a lock box, but STO is never going to be a fully flesh out MMo and I think deep down Nagus, you know this.
Let it go.
Oh wait, your going to respond by saying something like I don't have to respond or if you don't like it move on etc, etc. More Nagus wisdom?
At this point, I'm just hoping my new nickname "Resource Drought" catches on.
Yeah, the pages and pages of "debate" over the word promise was ... an acquired taste in terms of forum reading.
(My smiles are intended as smiles. Because even though I myself am a grumpy old man, the character I draw comic strip adventures for, Superchum, is a very smiley person).
Still read everything.
I think "Mr Promise" is just being a d...
Whoops, what's that sound I hear? Oh yes, it's an infraction coming my way...
You know, you don't really say much in any of your posts do you. If you don't like peoples responses, you dismiss them with a smiley face or some type of sarcastic, smarmy respose.
And you are completely entitled to your opinion. However every post you make bumps it back to the top of the forum which usually means more replies. You are free to either continue doing that or stop reading it whenever you like. Either way, your personal opinion of the thread should have absolutely nothing to do with whether other people keep discussing it or not
You are *completely* misunderstaning what I'm trying to say! I AM expressing my opinion and I'm not TELLINg anyone to do otherwise! Communication is not my strong suit today, but it's just -- Argh, forget it.
AND STOP WITH THE GODDAMN SMILIES! [redacted]
ETA: Congrats, you got me to type in caps. You win. Have a Point(tm). Enjoy.
ETA: Removed what could be considered blasphemy. I'm taking a break. I'm supposedly on the Cryptic Critics side; why the heck am I the one getting frustrated?
As they say, imitation is the greatest form of flattery
Wait, are you partaking in derailing your own thread? No "keep it on topic"?
I know why, it's because you have your answer and your sulking, so you are now left to do nothing but forum spar with us lowbies.
Why not just climb back up on the high horse of yours and admit your not going to get any more out of this thread.
You made you point, got your answer, submitted more evidence and got butkiss after because either A. They know you are right, or B. So what.
So what meaning who do you think you are to ask more info from us on our decisions.
As I said before, we all lost on this. We lost the first minute we put down our £40 to buy the game for the 2 complete factions we were told were going to be put in the game, only to be told sorry nope.
As I said before, we all lost on this. We lost the first minute we put down our £40 to buy the game for the 2 complete factions we were told were going to be put in the game, only to be told sorry nope.
Yes, that does suck. My own hope is that going forward they will tell us the whole story, not mislead us with half of it.
Yes, that does suck. My own hope is that going forward they will tell us the whole story, not mislead us with half of it.
And peace was found at last.
Yes, I hope so too. I doubt it, the dollar is the bottom line now. Whatever they think will bring in the money for minimum work is, what I think we can all look forward too.
So far in year three, we've seen one featured episode series, one event in a new area that will only be there in the core game until the event is over, and one KDF PvE mission.
We've seen a bit more than that. From january 17th, 2012 (F2P launch) to now (April 6th 2012):
- The 2 Year Anniversary event - and a mission to shake down the Odyssey (Fed side) and Bortas where those that did it got a free version of said ship (Not as good as the later C-Store ones, but nice in it own right) <--- Tmeporary event, gone now
- The 4th FE series (5 missions/episodes) (Permanent)
- New (and nice) social zone: Bajor city of Haddon (Permanent)
- The new Asteroid Mining event/daily mission and social zone (Permanent)
- Reworking of some of the old Fleet Actions to fix bugs and make them less of a grind; and a re-work of a KDF Fleet action to make it less the like the Fed version.
- New side missions for the Defera Invasions (about 20 side missions) (Permanent)
- Doff system expansions ( A slew of new assignments and chain. You can get rare Doff assignments from your Ship interior and access Department Head assignments from the Department Head tab, etc.) (Permanent)
- A new KDF only mission (Alpha) (Permanent)
- The "First Contact Day" event (gets you a "Phoenix ship pet) (Temporary - event will be gone on 4/9/12)
^^^^
And this is all the non-C-store stuff everyone has access to for free; so while I agree that there's not as much 'up frontness' in some of the Devs replys of late; in the 11 or so weeks since F2P started (abdDStahl was put back into the EP position), ther has been a flow of new stuff to do at a fairly sustained rate so far, which is one thing both he and SD'Angelo said would happn; so in this regard, it is more than we saw under Atari.
After reading through the devs comments, I really do not think they understand their current situation. If your competitor has more content, ("SW:TOR" has eight fully functional factions while you only have one), you should real consider going out of business. As a result of overcharging for the little content you have, the fans will hold the devs responsible for their publicly made statements. Its all about trust.
Do you even know what a 'faction' is? I ask because i n reading the above statement, I don't think you do. SWToR doesn't have eight factions - they have two factions (Repulic and Empire) qnd each faction has 4 main classes that have 2 choices at level 10 for a total of 8 advanced classes per faction.
As for 'trust' - the spin the SWToR devs put of their engine, graphics and interface issues (and the wholesale denial an issue exists until half the playerbase posts proof) is about on par with the woorst any Cryptic dev has done to date.
Oh, and FYI - at this point and time Cryptic isn't charging for any mission content in STO - you can play through all of it without paying a cent. So, I don't see where the claim of 'overcharging' comes from. Nothing in the C-Store is needed to progress or do any of the existing content in STO; thus if omeone thinks the C-Store in overpriced, he/she has the ooption of not spending a dime of real money; PLUS they can STILL dio that in game (IE get stuff from the C-Store by getting and refining Dilithium Ore in game and buying C-Points other players have put up on the Dilithium Exchange. <--- yes, it requires they play and work for said dilithium ore in game, BUT it is an option.
Thus the only company charging 100% for content between EA/BioWare and Cryptic is EA/BioWare. STO is 100% F2P (and you can even buy from the C-Store) if a player is willing and wants to do the in game methods required.
It is my present job. I did 4 or so this week.
Last week I did maybe 4.
The week prior I don't think I did any, but that is what I do for a living.
What cryptic has nothing to do with that.
"What cryptic has nothing to do with that" <--- please translate.
We've seen a bit more than that. From january 17th, 2012 (F2P launch) to now (April 6th 2012):
- The 2 Year Anniversary event - and a mission to shake down the Odyssey (Fed side) and Bortas where those that did it got a free version of said ship (Not as good as the later C-Store ones, but nice in it own right) <--- Tmeporary event, gone now
- The 4th FE series (5 missions/episodes) (Permanent)
- New (and nice) social zone: Bajor city of Haddon (Permanent)
- The new Asteroid Mining event/daily mission and social zone (Permanent)
- Reworking of some of the old Fleet Actions to fix bugs and make them less of a grind; and a re-work of a KDF Fleet action to make it less the like the Fed version.
- New side missions for the Defera Invasions (about 20 side missions) (Permanent)
- Doff system expansions ( A slew of new assignments and chain. You can get rare Doff assignments from your Ship interior and access Department Head assignments from the Department Head tab, etc.) (Permanent)
- A new KDF only mission (Alpha) (Permanent)
- The "First Contact Day" event (gets you a "Phoenix ship pet) (Temporary - event will be gone on 4/9/12)
^^^^
And this is all the non-C-store stuff everyone has access to for free; so while I agree that there's not as much 'up frontness' in some of the Devs replys of late; in the 11 or so weeks since F2P started (abdDStahl was put back into the EP position), ther has been a flow of new stuff to do at a fairly sustained rate so far, which is one thing both he and SD'Angelo said would happn; so in this regard, it is more than we saw under Atari.
You are correct. There is more that has been delivered than I listed.
But let me explain why, at least for me, it is not enough... or at least not enough in the right direction:
- 2-year anniversary event. A mission that lasted all of five minutes to get a ship that isn't really worth all that much. Ships are not content. Ships are the form we take while in space doing content. Five minutes for a piece of fluff.
- The 4th FE series. We were originally told they wanted to develop NINE series per year, and that with funding from PW it would be possible. Now we are told to expect maybe two series this year. The first one is done. No telling when the next one will be. But I figure we're looking at several months wait. In the meantime, they will have raked in a ton of money on a few more lockbox lottery grabs and C-store fluff.
- The new mining daily. Something which most people who do it consider to be nearly pointless because it pays out so little dilithium ore.
- The fleet actions being reworked IS a good thing. I don't do fleet actions so it doesn't add or improve anything for my gameplay. But I do recognize that it is something other appreciate, and I'm glad that that subgroup got something substantial.
- New Defera invasion sidequests. Between TNG, VOY and now STO, I am sick to death of the Borg. They have become the token challenge when writers cannot come up with something better. The Borg invasion of Defera should have been a FE series. A sequel to the first Defera series. Now it's really nothing more than one more thing to do over and over and over and over again with nothing meaningful to be gained.
- The DOff system expansion I have no fault with. This is all that appeals to me right now in that there is enough randomness that the outcome cannot be predicted. Too bad that actual gameplay cannot be set up to work similarly.
- A new KDF mission. Read that again. A mission. As in ONE mission. That makes a total of nine klingon missions added to the game since launch... TWO YEARS AGO!. You see what I mean? Now if they would have released maybe ten new KDF missions, I'd say that maybe things are looking up. But ONE? Was that a tasty bone for the Klingon dogs? In two years. Eight missions. Now they've had a taste, they'll be wanting more. But I'm figuring on it being another several months before they deliver the next one. In the meantime, they will have raked in a ton of money on a few more lockbox lottery grabs and C-store fluff.
- The First Contact event. The addition of Utopia Planitia which could have been turned into a new social zone. COULD have had new hooks for NPC-driven DOff assignments. COULD have had starship gear and device crafting relocated to it from Memory Alpha to make it play a logical and viable role in gameplay. Instead, they are taking it away from us. Oh sure, it can be used in Foundry mission development, but half this commuynity treats foundry missions as if their developers have the cooties or something. I'm glad the foundry authors in the community got a nice new interior to play with. They've been needing it. But how does it help the core game?
So what will it take for me to think they are doing enough in the right direction?
A serious and quantitative effort to bring the KDF on par with the UFP.
Exploration that is really about exploring further into space.
Interstellar trade that has us moving resources and commodities through space to fuel exploration and colonization.
Territorial control where the Federation struggles to preserve the borders as they were before the Klingons ended the treaty and where the Klingons strive to conquer, and where the Romulans, when they make a bid to become a galactic superpower again, could change it all.
When STO starts having this sort of thing, and becoming a game that feels like I'm not only in the Trek universe, but also (within reason) influencing it. That is the kind of game that Jack Emmert told us we were going to get. So when Cryptic starts moving towards delivering that kind of game, I will considering them to be moving in the right direction. Until then, they get no money from me.
Now if they have no intentions of going this direction, then they need to flat out tell us. That way, those of us who are holding out hope that it will become an MMO worth paying for can stop doing so and decide whether we like what we see and want to stay, or whether it is not goof enough and we want to move along.
Hey now. To be FAIR ... if STO is your primary source of MMORPG experience then you have to cut some people some slack because this game gives players a very warped idea of what a faction is.
Hence this thread's very existence!
In other words, if STO is what a player has the most experience with, then they might not really know what a faction is, because this game doesn't show them what it is.
I do not recall there being any law which requires all private for-profit businesses in America to be transparent for their customers.. Nor one that says all MMO providers must be transparent for their customers.. Or even one that says Star Trek themed MMOs must provide transparency for their forum users.
first, stop making excuses for their unacceptable behavior. that being said, yes, there are in fact laws that require such. if you are running a business and you tell your customers something that is a lie in order to obtain more of their money, especially over an extended period of time, you know what thats called? fraud. last time I checked, fraud is a crime.
by the way, there is a difference between lack of transparency and making a conscious effort to lie to someone. one is saying nothing, the other is telling someone something that is not true in order to get someones money.
The other person who said this only happens when there's 1 or 2 things said: that doesn't make it any better of a situation. Knock off the lawyering like you don't have any common sense that they changed direction and maybe you'll get some more of the transparency you seek. Don't badger them until they grovel at your feet because that won't happen and they'll disengage. That is bad.
think before you speak. dstahls excuse did not even make sense. nagus's question is a valid one. you do not 'change direction' and then keep telling people something that is the exact opposite of your actual intentions, in order to shut them up and keep them paying you. not unless you're trying to defraud people. this 'change of direction' is a lie. an excuse to excuse other bs excuses they've given us already that didn't make any sense. you also don't refuse to answer a question like the one the nagus asked unless you are actively know you are trying to hide a lie that makes no sense.
I also understand your desire for transparency. If Cryptic was a government institution I would be behind you all the way, but they are not. They are a private for-profit business. They have no obligation to provide any transparency to their customers.
this is not about transparency. this is about truth. those are two different things. if they want to say nothing, fine. say nothing. but do not lie. lying to get peoples money is called fraud. its also false advertising. and under some circumstances it could be called extortion. though I don't see that part coming into play here.
Again. But even you have to admit the simplest of logic dictates they work on endgame to give all the bored Admirals something to do before filling up ranks 1-25 of KDF content that you'll only see if you're leveling a lowbie.
your logic is badly flawed. the simplest of logic is pretty clear that in order to get to endgame you have to have content to level or you won't be playing anything at endgame. you have to provide for new customers. a business that does not do that is a business that will always fail
So I feel that the use of the word "promise" when a promise was never explicitly given seems disingenuous.
statements made by cryptic employees, in public, on their website are official statements you know. its exactly the same thing. don't play semantics
I don't honestly interpret much of anything Dan has said as a liw, unless you count omission or misdirection as lying.
except that he has repeatedly lied to us. +1 ships ring a bell, contradictory statements (a contradictory statement means at least one thing stated has to be a lie, or it would not be a contradiction) and misdirection? seriously? that IS lying.
I think he promised a lot of things he believed. They were promises made in good faith where they were PROMISED. Where they were suggested as partof the roadmap, they were plans made in good faith.
promises made in 'good faith' without knowing if what you're saying is even possible for certain, is foolish to say the least. I don't believe for a second that he believed any of it. you don't make claims to your customers based on things you don't even have the facts on yet.
And Perfect World isn't some mustache twirling villain here. They're supportive but they want results for their money, in contrast to Atari who wanted results without putting money in and while sapping money out.
if they were supportive we would not be getting the bs we're getting from cryptic. first it was 'don't blame atari!' then it was 'don't blame cryptic they're just doing what atari told them!' now its 'don't blame dan for anything he claimed' and 'its not PW's fault either, this is all ataris fault!!'
Yesterday I wanted a Coca-Cola. Today I want a chocolate shake. Tomorrow I will probably need a bourbon straight. Expressing my wants and intentions as they change is not lying.
Every time someone says that DStahl or Cryptic has lied to us concerning their plans, I instantly know that they have never had to make any kind of business plan in real life.
stop making excuses for them. there is a difference between plans changing and 'plans changing but we're going to tell our customers the same thing anyway to get money out of them cause they wouldn't like the truth' and refusing to answer questions such as the nagus has made. not to mention making directly contradictory statements and then talking in circles when called on it like a politician. you don't do those things unless you have something to hide and are doing things you should not be.
I think I may have noticed some words I may have used in this thread in some of those quotes.. But there are some quotes that are not me. As you again did not put a name with a quote I will not bother to figure it all out as it is too confusing.
If you would like me to reply to the points you are making about statements I may have said, please attribute my quotes to me so I know which is which.
Well, I think it is safe to say that after all the bile that has been spewed all over Dan and all over each other in this thread, he's not going to come back in here and answer ANY questions.
And not one blasted thing that any of us have said here will change his or anyone else on their side's perspective..
And let's make no mistake. There is the community's side and there's cryptic's side. And it has become an us vs them thing. Which side made it that way? BOTH OF THEM.
They drew a line in the sand with all the promises they have made and broke and made excuses to cover up for it. We drew a line in the sand when we saw through those excuses and called them on it. Our mistake was actually believing what Dan said about Perfect World buying them being the catalyst by which our hopes would finally be fulfilled. Their mistake was throwing that line out there knowing we would buy it.
But you know who the smart ones here are? Perfect World. Since the buyout, whenever anyone has tried to contact them about how Cryptic is handling things, They have responded that they are hands-off and that Cryptic maintains creative control.
And you know what? I believe them. The only party that has the power to override anything concerning STO's development is CBS. But they will only override something if it violates the terms of the use of the Star Trek IP. And we do not know what precisely those terms entail. CBS does not care about what game systems are in place or what revenue generating models are used. So long as Cryptic complies with the conditions by which they were granted the license to use the IP, they won't interfere.
So ladies and gentlemen... It is no longer Atari that can be blamed for hangups in STO becoming what has been promised. And Perfect World isn't pulling the strings. This is a Cryptic Studios game. And it is Cryptic Studios who makes the call on what does and does not happen.
You hear us Dan. We're not stupid. We see what's going on, and we are done swallowing the hook. By We I mean me and whomever else also does not have the wool pulled over their eyes. All we ask for is for you to start applying business ethics to your communications with us. We are your customers. We have the right to know what's really going down with this product you wish to sell us.
Speaking for myself, I am willing to forget everything that was promised and begin with a blank page. But the condition of that is for you to come clean with this community on your company's intentions concerning every single as-yet unredacted promise that has been made.
You openly redact the promises now, as I said several posts back, on the grounds of shifting priorities resulting from the sale of Cryptic to Perfect World and the subsequent shift in management decisions. Make it the official line and there is nothing I or anyone else can do about it. And after that, speak only about what is clear that is going to happen. Tell us what we need to hear, not what you think we want to hear just to keep us from going off on you.
For that matter, this community has existed long enough and has made its position clear enough as to what it wants out of this game. You know what will upset us. So set your priorities based on what WON'T upset us, or at least on what will upset us least.
You've learned by now that no matter what you do, someone is going to scream bloody murder about it. So just tell us what you guys are going to do, and then actually do it. We may not like it, but at least you won't be accuesed of not being on the level.
You don't have to come back into this thread and answer anything. You can show us your sincerity by saying what your doing and doing what you are saying, whatever it is. Let your words and your actions match.
I don't think Dan Stahl has 'lied' at all; yes, I do believe that.
(snip)
At some point, so-called "PR talk" and "spin" gets seriously in the way of the message.
(snip)
So what I, and I think Kirkfat, and others, are asking for is not for Dan to 'tell the truth,' but for Dan to lay down the law.
a) What if "laying down the law" end's up being yet one more dusty hook that someone will use to try to string him up down the road ?
(I used the term "dusty hook" because I've seen in this thread qoutes from Stormshade ... , and the dust on those qoutes just made me :rolleyes: to put it politely)
b) What you've asked for , I asked for as well in Priority One Podcast - Episode 69 .
Basically (and unfortunetly) , I got a "yes and no" answer :
My question was a bit shrunk down as well , I asked :
Now that you have returned how am I (and indeed the community) expected to refer to your previous statements and promises ?
Do you expect or want us to turn over a new page ?
Dan answered :
" I think it's safer to think of it as a new slate , but I've certainly have not given up on any of the things we've been talking about , for example in the Engineering Reports or previous time tables " (time track 01:00.53)
Now I can state that IMHO that answer is problematic , and it would have been easier (for us , not for Dan) to hear that we get a new slate . No more quotes that have 5 different layers of dust on them .
But Dan decided to go on a different rout .
From his POV , there were the plans he made and the half finished projects that got derailed , so he chose to Not "lay down the law" , but instead to tell us that they are picking up where they left off ... -- not knowing that some people will use this as a license to hound him with quotes that I personally find inapplicable .
Why ?
Because we are in the here and now and not in the "back then" .
If I were a bitter individual , I'd add that I hope that with each "polite demand" for transparency , Cryptic becomes more opaque . That's should be the price for an ego trip such as this thread .
But I'm not bitter am I ? Oh wait , yes I am .
Well, I think it is safe to say that after all the bile that has been spewed all over Dan and all over each other in this thread, he's not going to come back in here and answer ANY questions.
The Ask Cryptic gives a pretty great idea of what the team isn't capable of doing in the near or long term future. While some folks might want clear answers to pin specifics down, if you just keep reading what Dan does post about you get the picture.
There's an issue with the company's resources. It's a resource drought. They don't have enough time, money or people to do much with the game. The people they do have in place are busy making one or two new systems, but the rest of the game's development is left to languish.
It's an odd path they're taking. Most MMORPGs when in maintenance mode like this one is, continue the storylines and the plot of the game, extending it forward in the creation of new villains, new missions, new zones, new raids, new stuff to do in that sense.
This game keeps making new mechanics to keep doing the same old stuff with. So in 2010 you could fight the Borg in a patrol in your snappy new Luna class science vessel.
In 2012 you can grind out sets of MACO gear in your science-style Odyssey while sending named people on your ship onto shuttles to colonize the B'Tran cluster and wait for your fleet's very own starbase about to come to life.
But you're still doing the same exact content. 2 years later.
And the tiny dev team they have doesn't have the resources to do much about that.
The community wants what it wants. The Development Team, though, can't find the time, money or staff to make most of what the community wants.
Resource Drought.
Speaking for myself, I am willing to forget everything that was promised and begin with a blank page.
I'm not. Because for two years I've wanted to see the game move forward. Instead I got half-done diplomacy, Dabo but no Poker, Interiors that had no function, Absolutely no new hair tech, a foundry that won't let me use Starlians as a villain, a crew assignment minigame that plays like a browser game, a ground combat revamp that turned an MMO into an FPS, two crafting revamps that didn't work, s universe that suggests the Excelsior is a top ship of the line but a Constitution is too old, and now I'm getting fleet oriented forced PvP and PvE through starbases.
The entire time I haven't gotten any new stories about the Undine. Practically nothing about the Iconians. And zilch about the Gamma Quadrant and the Kazon.
Star Trek is an IP based around strong storytelling. Yet this game keeps pumping out everything BUT that.
There's no excuse for this. Not when Perfect World just raked in God only knows how much money from key sales on the C-store for the Galor lockbox, and will likely rake in that much more with the next one.
I don't know how they do it in China, but in Western World, there's a very true rule that applies to business: It takes money to make money. Perfect World bought Cryptic because they wanted to get into the Western Market, but they are trying to play by Eastern rules and as a result they are missing out on so much potential long-term gain because they aren't investing in them.
IF they want STO to be profitable, then they need to loosen the purse strings and budget for a staff large enough and balanced enough in development skills to make it happen. You cannot run a major IP-based MMO on a shoestring budget. Or maybe they can.
It's our fault, you know. The community, I mean. We buy the fluff they throw out there. The game is lackluster at best, even after they spent so much time developing a few new cool things for it. But the fluff items are top notch.
I'm not. Because for two years I've wanted to see the game move forward. Instead I got half-done diplomacy, Dabo but no Poker, Interiors that had no function, Absolutely no new hair tech, a foundry that won't let me use Starlians as a villain, a crew assignment minigame that plays like a browser game, a ground combat revamp that turned an MMO into an FPS, two crafting revamps that didn't work, s universe that suggests the Excelsior is a top ship of the line but a Constitution is too old, and now I'm getting fleet oriented forced PvP and PvE through starbases.
The entire time I haven't gotten any new stories about the Undine. Practically nothing about the Iconians. And zilch about the Gamma Quadrant and the Kazon.
Star Trek is an IP based around strong storytelling. Yet this game keeps pumping out everything BUT that.
I know what you are saying. And I agree. The only reason I am willing to wipe the slate clean as far as the old promises are concerned is that now, after TWO YEARS, it is clear to me that the likelihood of seeing them delivered upon is practically non-existant. But I want them to actually come out and say, "We just cannot do it and we are sorry."
They need to do that and stop stringing us along, or they need to actually deliver the goods. One or the other. I don't have any control over what they can or cannot do. But I do have control over where I spend my recreational money. And I am sure not spending it on STO so long as they keep jerking us around.
STO is not an island. It is surrounded on all sides by MMOs that offer Free-to-play access. And in as much as I hate Star Wars: The Old Republic because of what it is not, I am actually considering subscribing to it. Because based on what I have seen, BioWare actually is hearing what its community is saying and is actually taking steps to develop TOR's forward-going content and systems accordingly. Which is more than I can say for Cryptic. And when "The Secret World" comes out, I am considering giving it a try as well.
I want an MMO I can immerse myself in. STO is a game I log into, do my DOff assignments, maybe run a daily orn two and log out of. Games like Ultima Online drew me in and made me want to play for hours if I had the time, and allowed me to take maybe a few minutes, craft some arrows for my guild, and log out if that's all the time I had. How much time I spent had no bearing on how useful I could be to my in-game community.
When I find that type of MMO again, that is where I and my money will be. And Cryptic/Perfect World can take that to the bank!
Comments
And you are completely entitled to your opinion. However every post you make bumps it back to the top of the forum which usually means more replies. You are free to either continue doing that or stop reading it whenever you like. Either way, your personal opinion of the thread should have absolutely nothing to do with whether other people keep discussing it or not
How much of this is actually a discussion now?
Not sure what Nagus is hoping to achieve.
I'm no Cryptic fan and they have for over 2 year been caught out many times. Who know's if it's spin, outright lying or change or direction. You have to take whatever the Devs say with a pinch of salt.
This thread started out as 1 person posting a question that was answered and because the answer was not what he wanted to hear or was not answered to his satisfaction, he has thrown the teddy out of the pram and thinks because he is "the one", he should have his question answered.
It was then followed up by pages and pages of a dispute over the word "promise" by the same old Cryptic defence force, showing up to derail the thread.
Chum, I agree that threads that show what has been "promised" and I use the wording the same way you have explained it, are usually buried or moved to the "nothing to read here section" should be highlighted, but on this I question the OPs reasons and I cannot help but think it's just more for the posters own PR and enjoying the fame he gets on the forums.
http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?p=4144398#post4144398
In a nutshell, what I am hoping to achieve is that in the future they give us the full story, not mislead us with half the story. And as you can see from the link above, I already answered the question you just asked several pages ago in this thread. So if you are going to ask questions that have already been answered, I'll be happy to link you back to what I said, but then you cant turn around and try to pretend that I am the one keeping the conversation going because of your own failure to read what has already been said.
You are entitled to your opinion, but nonstop whining will get you nowhere.
If you want to call my request not to be mislead whining because you dont have a valid counter point, thats fine with me. It doesnt change the request.
At this point, I'm just hoping my new nickname "Resource Drought" catches on.
Yeah, the pages and pages of "debate" over the word promise was ... an acquired taste in terms of forum reading.
(My smiles are intended as smiles. Because even though I myself am a grumpy old man, the character I draw comic strip adventures for, Superchum, is a very smiley person).
You know, you don't really say much in any of your posts do you. If you don't like peoples responses, you dismiss them with a smiley face or some type of sarcastic, smarmy respose.
You lost on this.
In fact not just you, we all lost.
KDF is not going to happen. Romulans, not going to happen. Cardies, never.
You might get one in a lock box, even a ship to fly, in a lock box, but STO is never going to be a fully flesh out MMo and I think deep down Nagus, you know this.
Let it go.
Oh wait, your going to respond by saying something like I don't have to respond or if you don't like it move on etc, etc. More Nagus wisdom?
Still read everything.
I think "Mr Promise" is just being a d...
Whoops, what's that sound I hear? Oh yes, it's an infraction coming my way...
File it with the rest please...
You mean something like this?
You are *completely* misunderstaning what I'm trying to say! I AM expressing my opinion and I'm not TELLINg anyone to do otherwise! Communication is not my strong suit today, but it's just -- Argh, forget it.
AND STOP WITH THE GODDAMN SMILIES! [redacted]
ETA: Congrats, you got me to type in caps. You win. Have a Point(tm). Enjoy.
ETA: Removed what could be considered blasphemy.
Yep, thanks for proving my point.
You could have said something but as usual you said nothing.
If your point was that you are saying that I do the exact same thing you just did in your previous posts, then you are welcome
Lol.
Keep on rocking with your same old, same old Nagus.
Tell you what, just for you here is smiley face that you love to use so much
As they say, imitation is the greatest form of flattery
Wait, are you partaking in derailing your own thread? No "keep it on topic"?
I know why, it's because you have your answer and your sulking, so you are now left to do nothing but forum spar with us lowbies.
Why not just climb back up on the high horse of yours and admit your not going to get any more out of this thread.
You made you point, got your answer, submitted more evidence and got butkiss after because either A. They know you are right, or B. So what.
So what meaning who do you think you are to ask more info from us on our decisions.
As I said before, we all lost on this. We lost the first minute we put down our £40 to buy the game for the 2 complete factions we were told were going to be put in the game, only to be told sorry nope.
Yes, that does suck. My own hope is that going forward they will tell us the whole story, not mislead us with half of it.
And peace was found at last.
Yes, I hope so too. I doubt it, the dollar is the bottom line now. Whatever they think will bring in the money for minimum work is, what I think we can all look forward too.
We've seen a bit more than that. From january 17th, 2012 (F2P launch) to now (April 6th 2012):
- The 2 Year Anniversary event - and a mission to shake down the Odyssey (Fed side) and Bortas where those that did it got a free version of said ship (Not as good as the later C-Store ones, but nice in it own right) <--- Tmeporary event, gone now
- The 4th FE series (5 missions/episodes) (Permanent)
- New (and nice) social zone: Bajor city of Haddon (Permanent)
- The new Asteroid Mining event/daily mission and social zone (Permanent)
- Reworking of some of the old Fleet Actions to fix bugs and make them less of a grind; and a re-work of a KDF Fleet action to make it less the like the Fed version.
- New side missions for the Defera Invasions (about 20 side missions) (Permanent)
- Doff system expansions ( A slew of new assignments and chain. You can get rare Doff assignments from your Ship interior and access Department Head assignments from the Department Head tab, etc.) (Permanent)
- A new KDF only mission (Alpha) (Permanent)
- The "First Contact Day" event (gets you a "Phoenix ship pet) (Temporary - event will be gone on 4/9/12)
^^^^
And this is all the non-C-store stuff everyone has access to for free; so while I agree that there's not as much 'up frontness' in some of the Devs replys of late; in the 11 or so weeks since F2P started (abdDStahl was put back into the EP position), ther has been a flow of new stuff to do at a fairly sustained rate so far, which is one thing both he and SD'Angelo said would happn; so in this regard, it is more than we saw under Atari.
Do you even know what a 'faction' is? I ask because i n reading the above statement, I don't think you do. SWToR doesn't have eight factions - they have two factions (Repulic and Empire) qnd each faction has 4 main classes that have 2 choices at level 10 for a total of 8 advanced classes per faction.
As for 'trust' - the spin the SWToR devs put of their engine, graphics and interface issues (and the wholesale denial an issue exists until half the playerbase posts proof) is about on par with the woorst any Cryptic dev has done to date.
Oh, and FYI - at this point and time Cryptic isn't charging for any mission content in STO - you can play through all of it without paying a cent. So, I don't see where the claim of 'overcharging' comes from. Nothing in the C-Store is needed to progress or do any of the existing content in STO; thus if omeone thinks the C-Store in overpriced, he/she has the ooption of not spending a dime of real money; PLUS they can STILL dio that in game (IE get stuff from the C-Store by getting and refining Dilithium Ore in game and buying C-Points other players have put up on the Dilithium Exchange. <--- yes, it requires they play and work for said dilithium ore in game, BUT it is an option.
Thus the only company charging 100% for content between EA/BioWare and Cryptic is EA/BioWare. STO is 100% F2P (and you can even buy from the C-Store) if a player is willing and wants to do the in game methods required.
"What cryptic has nothing to do with that" <--- please translate.
You are correct. There is more that has been delivered than I listed.
But let me explain why, at least for me, it is not enough... or at least not enough in the right direction:
- 2-year anniversary event. A mission that lasted all of five minutes to get a ship that isn't really worth all that much. Ships are not content. Ships are the form we take while in space doing content. Five minutes for a piece of fluff.
- The 4th FE series. We were originally told they wanted to develop NINE series per year, and that with funding from PW it would be possible. Now we are told to expect maybe two series this year. The first one is done. No telling when the next one will be. But I figure we're looking at several months wait. In the meantime, they will have raked in a ton of money on a few more lockbox lottery grabs and C-store fluff.
- The new mining daily. Something which most people who do it consider to be nearly pointless because it pays out so little dilithium ore.
- The fleet actions being reworked IS a good thing. I don't do fleet actions so it doesn't add or improve anything for my gameplay. But I do recognize that it is something other appreciate, and I'm glad that that subgroup got something substantial.
- New Defera invasion sidequests. Between TNG, VOY and now STO, I am sick to death of the Borg. They have become the token challenge when writers cannot come up with something better. The Borg invasion of Defera should have been a FE series. A sequel to the first Defera series. Now it's really nothing more than one more thing to do over and over and over and over again with nothing meaningful to be gained.
- The DOff system expansion I have no fault with. This is all that appeals to me right now in that there is enough randomness that the outcome cannot be predicted. Too bad that actual gameplay cannot be set up to work similarly.
- A new KDF mission. Read that again. A mission. As in ONE mission. That makes a total of nine klingon missions added to the game since launch... TWO YEARS AGO!. You see what I mean? Now if they would have released maybe ten new KDF missions, I'd say that maybe things are looking up. But ONE? Was that a tasty bone for the Klingon dogs? In two years. Eight missions. Now they've had a taste, they'll be wanting more. But I'm figuring on it being another several months before they deliver the next one. In the meantime, they will have raked in a ton of money on a few more lockbox lottery grabs and C-store fluff.
- The First Contact event. The addition of Utopia Planitia which could have been turned into a new social zone. COULD have had new hooks for NPC-driven DOff assignments. COULD have had starship gear and device crafting relocated to it from Memory Alpha to make it play a logical and viable role in gameplay. Instead, they are taking it away from us. Oh sure, it can be used in Foundry mission development, but half this commuynity treats foundry missions as if their developers have the cooties or something. I'm glad the foundry authors in the community got a nice new interior to play with. They've been needing it. But how does it help the core game?
So what will it take for me to think they are doing enough in the right direction?
A serious and quantitative effort to bring the KDF on par with the UFP.
Exploration that is really about exploring further into space.
Interstellar trade that has us moving resources and commodities through space to fuel exploration and colonization.
Territorial control where the Federation struggles to preserve the borders as they were before the Klingons ended the treaty and where the Klingons strive to conquer, and where the Romulans, when they make a bid to become a galactic superpower again, could change it all.
When STO starts having this sort of thing, and becoming a game that feels like I'm not only in the Trek universe, but also (within reason) influencing it. That is the kind of game that Jack Emmert told us we were going to get. So when Cryptic starts moving towards delivering that kind of game, I will considering them to be moving in the right direction. Until then, they get no money from me.
Now if they have no intentions of going this direction, then they need to flat out tell us. That way, those of us who are holding out hope that it will become an MMO worth paying for can stop doing so and decide whether we like what we see and want to stay, or whether it is not goof enough and we want to move along.
Hey now. To be FAIR ... if STO is your primary source of MMORPG experience then you have to cut some people some slack because this game gives players a very warped idea of what a faction is.
Hence this thread's very existence!
In other words, if STO is what a player has the most experience with, then they might not really know what a faction is, because this game doesn't show them what it is.
first, stop making excuses for their unacceptable behavior. that being said, yes, there are in fact laws that require such. if you are running a business and you tell your customers something that is a lie in order to obtain more of their money, especially over an extended period of time, you know what thats called? fraud. last time I checked, fraud is a crime.
by the way, there is a difference between lack of transparency and making a conscious effort to lie to someone. one is saying nothing, the other is telling someone something that is not true in order to get someones money.
think before you speak. dstahls excuse did not even make sense. nagus's question is a valid one. you do not 'change direction' and then keep telling people something that is the exact opposite of your actual intentions, in order to shut them up and keep them paying you. not unless you're trying to defraud people. this 'change of direction' is a lie. an excuse to excuse other bs excuses they've given us already that didn't make any sense. you also don't refuse to answer a question like the one the nagus asked unless you are actively know you are trying to hide a lie that makes no sense.
this is not about transparency. this is about truth. those are two different things. if they want to say nothing, fine. say nothing. but do not lie. lying to get peoples money is called fraud. its also false advertising. and under some circumstances it could be called extortion. though I don't see that part coming into play here.
your logic is badly flawed. the simplest of logic is pretty clear that in order to get to endgame you have to have content to level or you won't be playing anything at endgame. you have to provide for new customers. a business that does not do that is a business that will always fail
statements made by cryptic employees, in public, on their website are official statements you know. its exactly the same thing. don't play semantics
except that he has repeatedly lied to us. +1 ships ring a bell, contradictory statements (a contradictory statement means at least one thing stated has to be a lie, or it would not be a contradiction) and misdirection? seriously? that IS lying.
promises made in 'good faith' without knowing if what you're saying is even possible for certain, is foolish to say the least. I don't believe for a second that he believed any of it. you don't make claims to your customers based on things you don't even have the facts on yet.
if they were supportive we would not be getting the bs we're getting from cryptic. first it was 'don't blame atari!' then it was 'don't blame cryptic they're just doing what atari told them!' now its 'don't blame dan for anything he claimed' and 'its not PW's fault either, this is all ataris fault!!'
stop making excuses for them. there is a difference between plans changing and 'plans changing but we're going to tell our customers the same thing anyway to get money out of them cause they wouldn't like the truth' and refusing to answer questions such as the nagus has made. not to mention making directly contradictory statements and then talking in circles when called on it like a politician. you don't do those things unless you have something to hide and are doing things you should not be.
I think I may have noticed some words I may have used in this thread in some of those quotes.. But there are some quotes that are not me. As you again did not put a name with a quote I will not bother to figure it all out as it is too confusing.
If you would like me to reply to the points you are making about statements I may have said, please attribute my quotes to me so I know which is which.
And not one blasted thing that any of us have said here will change his or anyone else on their side's perspective..
And let's make no mistake. There is the community's side and there's cryptic's side. And it has become an us vs them thing. Which side made it that way? BOTH OF THEM.
They drew a line in the sand with all the promises they have made and broke and made excuses to cover up for it. We drew a line in the sand when we saw through those excuses and called them on it. Our mistake was actually believing what Dan said about Perfect World buying them being the catalyst by which our hopes would finally be fulfilled. Their mistake was throwing that line out there knowing we would buy it.
But you know who the smart ones here are? Perfect World. Since the buyout, whenever anyone has tried to contact them about how Cryptic is handling things, They have responded that they are hands-off and that Cryptic maintains creative control.
And you know what? I believe them. The only party that has the power to override anything concerning STO's development is CBS. But they will only override something if it violates the terms of the use of the Star Trek IP. And we do not know what precisely those terms entail. CBS does not care about what game systems are in place or what revenue generating models are used. So long as Cryptic complies with the conditions by which they were granted the license to use the IP, they won't interfere.
So ladies and gentlemen... It is no longer Atari that can be blamed for hangups in STO becoming what has been promised. And Perfect World isn't pulling the strings. This is a Cryptic Studios game. And it is Cryptic Studios who makes the call on what does and does not happen.
You hear us Dan. We're not stupid. We see what's going on, and we are done swallowing the hook. By We I mean me and whomever else also does not have the wool pulled over their eyes. All we ask for is for you to start applying business ethics to your communications with us. We are your customers. We have the right to know what's really going down with this product you wish to sell us.
Speaking for myself, I am willing to forget everything that was promised and begin with a blank page. But the condition of that is for you to come clean with this community on your company's intentions concerning every single as-yet unredacted promise that has been made.
You openly redact the promises now, as I said several posts back, on the grounds of shifting priorities resulting from the sale of Cryptic to Perfect World and the subsequent shift in management decisions. Make it the official line and there is nothing I or anyone else can do about it. And after that, speak only about what is clear that is going to happen. Tell us what we need to hear, not what you think we want to hear just to keep us from going off on you.
For that matter, this community has existed long enough and has made its position clear enough as to what it wants out of this game. You know what will upset us. So set your priorities based on what WON'T upset us, or at least on what will upset us least.
You've learned by now that no matter what you do, someone is going to scream bloody murder about it. So just tell us what you guys are going to do, and then actually do it. We may not like it, but at least you won't be accuesed of not being on the level.
You don't have to come back into this thread and answer anything. You can show us your sincerity by saying what your doing and doing what you are saying, whatever it is. Let your words and your actions match.
I think I've said all that I need to say.
a) What if "laying down the law" end's up being yet one more dusty hook that someone will use to try to string him up down the road ?
(I used the term "dusty hook" because I've seen in this thread qoutes from Stormshade ... , and the dust on those qoutes just made me :rolleyes: to put it politely)
b) What you've asked for , I asked for as well in Priority One Podcast - Episode 69 .
Basically (and unfortunetly) , I got a "yes and no" answer :
My question was a bit shrunk down as well , I asked :
Dan answered :
" I think it's safer to think of it as a new slate , but I've certainly have not given up on any of the things we've been talking about , for example in the Engineering Reports or previous time tables " (time track 01:00.53)
Now I can state that IMHO that answer is problematic , and it would have been easier (for us , not for Dan) to hear that we get a new slate . No more quotes that have 5 different layers of dust on them .
But Dan decided to go on a different rout .
From his POV , there were the plans he made and the half finished projects that got derailed , so he chose to Not "lay down the law" , but instead to tell us that they are picking up where they left off ... -- not knowing that some people will use this as a license to hound him with quotes that I personally find inapplicable .
Why ?
Because we are in the here and now and not in the "back then" .
If I were a bitter individual , I'd add that I hope that with each "polite demand" for transparency , Cryptic becomes more opaque . That's should be the price for an ego trip such as this thread .
But I'm not bitter am I ? Oh wait , yes I am .
The Ask Cryptic gives a pretty great idea of what the team isn't capable of doing in the near or long term future. While some folks might want clear answers to pin specifics down, if you just keep reading what Dan does post about you get the picture.
There's an issue with the company's resources. It's a resource drought. They don't have enough time, money or people to do much with the game. The people they do have in place are busy making one or two new systems, but the rest of the game's development is left to languish.
It's an odd path they're taking. Most MMORPGs when in maintenance mode like this one is, continue the storylines and the plot of the game, extending it forward in the creation of new villains, new missions, new zones, new raids, new stuff to do in that sense.
This game keeps making new mechanics to keep doing the same old stuff with. So in 2010 you could fight the Borg in a patrol in your snappy new Luna class science vessel.
In 2012 you can grind out sets of MACO gear in your science-style Odyssey while sending named people on your ship onto shuttles to colonize the B'Tran cluster and wait for your fleet's very own starbase about to come to life.
But you're still doing the same exact content. 2 years later.
And the tiny dev team they have doesn't have the resources to do much about that.
The community wants what it wants. The Development Team, though, can't find the time, money or staff to make most of what the community wants.
Resource Drought.
I'm not. Because for two years I've wanted to see the game move forward. Instead I got half-done diplomacy, Dabo but no Poker, Interiors that had no function, Absolutely no new hair tech, a foundry that won't let me use Starlians as a villain, a crew assignment minigame that plays like a browser game, a ground combat revamp that turned an MMO into an FPS, two crafting revamps that didn't work, s universe that suggests the Excelsior is a top ship of the line but a Constitution is too old, and now I'm getting fleet oriented forced PvP and PvE through starbases.
The entire time I haven't gotten any new stories about the Undine. Practically nothing about the Iconians. And zilch about the Gamma Quadrant and the Kazon.
Star Trek is an IP based around strong storytelling. Yet this game keeps pumping out everything BUT that.
He can always go back to Zynga.
There's no excuse for this. Not when Perfect World just raked in God only knows how much money from key sales on the C-store for the Galor lockbox, and will likely rake in that much more with the next one.
I don't know how they do it in China, but in Western World, there's a very true rule that applies to business: It takes money to make money. Perfect World bought Cryptic because they wanted to get into the Western Market, but they are trying to play by Eastern rules and as a result they are missing out on so much potential long-term gain because they aren't investing in them.
IF they want STO to be profitable, then they need to loosen the purse strings and budget for a staff large enough and balanced enough in development skills to make it happen. You cannot run a major IP-based MMO on a shoestring budget. Or maybe they can.
It's our fault, you know. The community, I mean. We buy the fluff they throw out there. The game is lackluster at best, even after they spent so much time developing a few new cool things for it. But the fluff items are top notch.
I know what you are saying. And I agree. The only reason I am willing to wipe the slate clean as far as the old promises are concerned is that now, after TWO YEARS, it is clear to me that the likelihood of seeing them delivered upon is practically non-existant. But I want them to actually come out and say, "We just cannot do it and we are sorry."
They need to do that and stop stringing us along, or they need to actually deliver the goods. One or the other. I don't have any control over what they can or cannot do. But I do have control over where I spend my recreational money. And I am sure not spending it on STO so long as they keep jerking us around.
STO is not an island. It is surrounded on all sides by MMOs that offer Free-to-play access. And in as much as I hate Star Wars: The Old Republic because of what it is not, I am actually considering subscribing to it. Because based on what I have seen, BioWare actually is hearing what its community is saying and is actually taking steps to develop TOR's forward-going content and systems accordingly. Which is more than I can say for Cryptic. And when "The Secret World" comes out, I am considering giving it a try as well.
I want an MMO I can immerse myself in. STO is a game I log into, do my DOff assignments, maybe run a daily orn two and log out of. Games like Ultima Online drew me in and made me want to play for hours if I had the time, and allowed me to take maybe a few minutes, craft some arrows for my guild, and log out if that's all the time I had. How much time I spent had no bearing on how useful I could be to my in-game community.
When I find that type of MMO again, that is where I and my money will be. And Cryptic/Perfect World can take that to the bank!