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PvP learning curve analogy *Warning: contains rambling*

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
edited June 2012 in PvP Gameplay
Hopefully you're in the PvP forum because you want to learn to PvP. Maybe you just died to 3 volleys from a decloaking Defiant or BoP. Well then, this might just be the wall of text for you. The links are all youtube videos which are the real meat of my analogy.

STO is the first game I’ve ever PvP’d in. I’d never developed a taste for PvP before, and it was a tough transition. By that I mean like getting hit in the ear with an ice ball on the way to middle school in December. I like it now, I’m hooked on STO space combat. I find PvP challenging and, purely because of the challenge, rewarding. Sometimes I roll over people and sometimes I still take an ice ball in the ear.

So, my analogy. When I was 10 my mom took me to karate. It took me 8 years to get a black belt. I don’t tell people about it IRL because I’ve come to realize that while it was good for me as a teenager to learn hard work goal setting, the style I learned was what I call a hothouse flower. It was great in the dojo. It was great with people who worked with me, who fought in a certain way that left them vulnerable to what I was going to do; uke, if you're familiar with the term. They were NPCs.
PvE Martial Arts
At 0:30 of this video you can see the black belt tanking 4 NPC uke. The stuff going on here looks awesome, and you leave the dojo feeling awesome. You are surrounded by guys who assure you that you are, in fact, awesome.

Here’s another video that I call the crit match. It’s two hothouse flower styles that fight until somebody gets a lucky crit.
Two PvE vets fighting.
I have a hard time watching that without yelling “Punch him in the face!” These guys are sticking to techniques that they believe in, which represent their style, and which they have agreed upon. But the average person has to wonder why they choose the inefficiency of refusing to punch to the face. These are two guys circling each other tossing out boarding parties and jam sensors. Eventually somebody will get a crit and maybe the other guy will blow up, but that’s just because on a long enough timeline the survival rate for everything drops to zero. The problem is, once in a while somebody does actually lose to inefficient tactics, so it's taken as proof of a solid style.

Next we have a classic video that I have to confess pretty much embodies my first experience with PvP. If you haven’t abandoned this thread for being too long already, watch this and imagine that the guys getting beat up in the first part of the video are NPCs.
A Martial Arts portrayal of my entrance to PvP
The kaia master in this video is actually RPing. He makes a tough transition to PvP.

Currently there are a few usual ways to win an MMA fight. Essentially, you’re looking for a lucky crit from a stand up striking match, a submission, or ground and pound. G&P involves standing or kneeling above your opponent and striking them. It’s brutal, it’s a dogfight (pit-bulls not jets). It’s repugnant to many, especially those who have been raised in a pretty hothouse dojo, much as the massive alpha is repugnant to some Trek fans.
Efficiency prized above all else.
G&P has no beauty, no rhythm, no grace. It is efficient and intended to deliver an amount of damage against a resisting opponent that can’t be absorbed.

This is what turns many newcomers away from STO PvP. While you can make the comparisons between science powers and submissions, at first you're going to be dying to a brute force alpha strike that is as disrespectful as the pounding being laid down in the video just above. It hurts. It hurt my ship and it hurt my pride. But when I went back to PvE and saw the NPCs flying around like dopey uke I knew I had to queue up again for PvP. There was nothing in PvE that was going to G&P me. It was Kirk jumping the gorge in Generations.

When I started training in grappling I learned that you have to tap out. This means I was worked into a losing position by my opponent and forced to acknowledge it. If you don’t have the ability to admit you’ve lost, and do it over and over again, you won’t learn, grow, or improve as a grappler. If you can’t swallow getting annihilated in an alpha strike over and over in PvP you won’t learn, grow, or improve as a STO pilot. Fighters learn to escape getting G&P’d, and STO pilots learn to survive massive alpha strikes. Lots of people think the alpha is "un-Trek." Maybe it is, maybe it isn't, but you can survive it, I promise.

Players are human just like you. With the exception of lag, which is the truly unfair part of PvP, everyone has access to the same resources. Aytanhi beat into my head that you can learn something even in a loss. He told me to adapt after I die, that’s why I say he’s part borg. I learned from SteveHale to say “Thanks” at the end of the match, no matter what, which you wouldn’t think is tough, but it is. Nobody can stop you from being a jerk in STO, like in little league when the coach is standing over you making you say “good game.”

I love STO, the ambiance, the stories, everything. But PvP hooked me because of the challenge. As long as new players continue to queue up, there's always new content. When I find myself against a name I know to be a good pilot it's like a boss fight with the excitement of Christmas morning. When I pop somebody and they respawn only to pop me back, or when I get the PvP holy grail of a 15-15 arena, it doesn’t really matter that I met my PvP dailies an hour before because trading kills is as awesome as this: A satisfying final score.
Post edited by Unknown User on

Comments

  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2012
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2012
    STO players are strange somehow.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2012
    Good post ricky! Very apt.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2012
    That was an interesting analogy good sir.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2012
    Great read, thanks fella.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2012
    excellent analogys. pve is like larping, and pvp is like an actual battlefield. larping is not going to prepare you for an actual battlefield. larping is silly and the 'abilities' you use in larping are silly. it actually does you harm and give you bad habits for a real battle, gives you delusions of grandeur, and makes you think your silly 'abilities' are helpful. going from larping strait to real live war is apt to the shock that is pvp at level cap, when you haven't ever pvped before.

    one thing everyone has to learn about in pvp is how to survive an alpha, in at least a cruiser. in a cruiser especially, its possible to be completely immune to alphas, sure they will hurt, and drain your shields, but they shouldn't be able to kill you. you must always have your shield resistance up and an ear for the sound of a lot of cannons firing at once. a maxed out high capacity shield or lolmaco, TT is essential, as any additional heals and resistences you can throw on yourself before the second volley. once you have surviving an alpha down, you can learn how to fight back effectively. by then you will see just how completely juvenile all that pve you used to play seems.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2012
    I agree, the sweetest victory is the one that was the hardest to earn. I was in an OPVP pugmade today and we ended up with something like a 15-11 victory against a zombie carrier, a horde of drones/fighters that were literally unkillable, a BortaS tank, and a couple of BoPs that spent 99% of time under cloak, only coming out to throw a few heals and summon a russian satellite. It probably took almost an hour, but man did it taste great when it was over.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2012
    since i love mma, i appreciate this thread.

    the curve is steep, that is for sure. get some teammates,

    and

    have fun kill bad guys together.

    in a few weeks you will be much happier with the game.

    -horizon
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    PvP takes dedication, and psychological endurance in the beginning. When you learn the ropes, you will earn confidence, and battle stress becomes lower, enabling better concentration and higher chances for success.

    Also while gear is not that important, it still matters. People having good grasp of gameplay mechanics, using keybinds, having well and thoughtfully equipped ships or characters, purple efficient boffs and doffs will have a huge advantage, especially because the normal PvE diffculty of the game is so ... casual, it never forces the player to better him-herself. I think one problem of STO what is made obvious by the STF complaints is that the casual f2p player is not prepared for the diffculty of elite teamplay. And PvP is even more diffcult than STFs, so after a few embarrassing losses people give up this side of the game. Now, if there was a leaderboard and matchmaking, perhaps more would do PvP, but under these circumstances the results are perfectly understandable. People play to win, not to lose. The circumstances of winning need to be created, just like with the kompu gacha of lockboxes. One win will give you the thrill of victory, and will make you endure a hundred losses. But that win has to happen, and it has to happen early.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    Excellent post, Ricky. I thoroughly enjoyed it. Props dude :cool:
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    Yeah. That G&P vid reminded me of my first few matches back in Season1. I felt like that dude looked ... ruined. But, I pulled up my bootstraps and read, watched, listened, analyzed and LEARNED.


    Many come into the PvP arena all doe-eyed and ignorant. (Ignorance is merely the lack of experience, knowledge or understanding. It is understandable and, initially, acceptable. Willful Ignorance is a practice of ignoring any sensory input ("RESPAWN") that appears to contradict one’s inner model of reality.)

    As they whisk through the story-line, they are lead to believe they are Kirk w/plot armor. NPCs circle and circle always leaving the same shield facing available. Space. Space. Space. Space. Space. Space. Space. Space. Space. Space. Space. BOOM!! Rinse and repeat, 50x.

    They are never exposed to a foe that ACTUALLY wants to stay alive. They are never confronted with an unpredictable entity with a predilection for doing something different ... just because. And, when they enter the crucible of PvP, the truth of their abilities is laid out before them.

    There should be a requirement to rank up when you go to Admiral Quinn, he should give you one more assignment to complete. EVERYONE should be required to compete in 3 PvP engagements before you are prompted to the next rank.



    Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong.
    ~ Thomas Jefferson
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    BobTheYak wrote:
    Excellent post, Ricky. I thoroughly enjoyed it. Props dude :cool:

    I concur.
    Nick_Riker wrote:
    I agree, the sweetest victory is the one that was the hardest to earn. I was in an OPVP pugmade today and we ended up with something like a 15-11 victory against a zombie carrier, a horde of drones/fighters that were literally unkillable, a BortaS tank, and a couple of BoPs that spent 99% of time under cloak, only coming out to throw a few heals and summon a russian satellite. It probably took almost an hour, but man did it taste great when it was over.

    This sounds like a good fight. Was in a similar situation recently on my Vo'Quv. Long fight but lots of kills.
    There should be a requirement to rank up when you go to Admiral Quinn, he should give you one more assignment to complete. EVERYONE should be required to compete in 3 PvP engagements before you are prompted to the next rank.

    Great idea!

    Make sure the engagement conditons are victory based. Make them fight until they win 3. lol

    Can't make it too easy. hehe.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    Uus wrote:
    IGreat idea!

    Make sure the engagement conditons are victory based. Make them fight until they win 3. lol

    Can't make it too easy. hehe.

    Seriously. If you think about it, NO ONE ventures anywhere near (or, very probably, even knows about) PvP until they hit VA. By the time you hit level-cap, you've got no less than 20+ abilities (12 BO, 10 Yours) to use. You are part of a team (of all things in an MMO). You need to support your mates, stay alive and kill the enemy. Time your attacks. Time your heals.

    Auntie Em, Auntie Em it's a twister. It's a twister.

    The poor saps have no chance to train for the experience. They are never encouraged to do the experience. And everyone wonders why few dare to brave the hellfires of OPvP? I don't blame them. I (and a few, now, good friends) got lucky. Started in open beta, then Season 1 and rapidly rose (and out grew) my first fleet.

    Back then there was a hope for a new PvPer entering the arena to contribute, and sometimes win, against (what we now refer to as) a pre-made. Now, not so much; a snowflake drifting through the nine planes of Hades has better odds of surviving. All because they are ignorant of PvP and "real" combat.

    Let's introduce them early. Do it when there are only a couple BO powers, a few Captain abilities and not so much going on that can't be tracked. Do it when things move slower and the time frames are longer. This would allow for (heavens forbid) mistakes and wait for it .... LEARNING.

    Will some complain? Yeah, of course; the anti-socialists. But orders are orders Mister. Get out there an fight.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    Seriously. If you think about it, NO ONE ventures anywhere near (or, very probably, even knows about) PvP until they hit VA. By the time you hit level-cap, you've got no less than 20+ abilities (12 BO, 10 Yours) to use. You are part of a team (of all things in an MMO). You need to support your mates, stay alive and kill the enemy. Time your attacks. Time your heals.

    Auntie Em, Auntie Em it's a twister. It's a twister.

    The poor saps have no chance to train for the experience. They are never encouraged to do the experience. And everyone wonders why few dare to brave the hellfires of OPvP? I don't blame them. I (and a few, now, good friends) got lucky. Started in open beta, then Season 1 and rapidly rose (and out grew) my first fleet.

    Back then there was a hope for a new PvPer entering the arena to contribute, and sometimes win, against (what we now refer to as) a pre-made. Now, not so much; a snowflake drifting through the nine planes of Hades has better odds of surviving. All because they are ignorant of PvP and "real" combat.

    Let's introduce them early. Do it when there are only a couple BO powers, a few Captain abilities and not so much going on that can't be tracked. Do it when things move slower and the time frames are longer. This would allow for (heavens forbid) mistakes and wait for it .... LEARNING.

    Will some complain? Yeah, of course; the anti-socialists. But orders are orders Mister. Get out there an fight.

    Well said. Wish I had thought of this.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    A very amusing and apt analogy, RedRicky, and you've described what is one of the biggest problems with PvP - that your average PvE enemy in this game requires so little in the way of thought, skill, weapons, ship types, tactics, builds, gear levels or teammates to defeat. The gap between the skill level required to be competitive in PvE and in PvP is large, so large it surely must be one of the largest such gaps in the entire history of MMORPG's.

    The solution would seem to be easy: increase the difficulty, even just a little bit, for PvE across the board. Offer greater rewards for the greater challenges, for currently there is no reason to select Elite difficulty on missions for it offers a modest challenge for no reward. If creating higher budgeted or different items for Elite rewards is too much work, then offer Dil and EC.

    If players are being hit by mini-Alphas outside of Elite STF's and such, then perhaps more Captains will look to their defenses and L2P better, which will prepare them for the day when they want to PvP.

    Something further should be done: newbie PvE carebears should not be immediately be thrown into the shark pit, unless it's part of a larger mixed battle (like a mixed level PvP fleet battle). A ranking system that places does some matchmaking would help with that, as would an early focus on PvP during the leveling process.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    Bravo, excellent post!
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    KaPoof!

    Holy TRIBBLE! My head just exploded! I feel sooooo alive!

    [Runs to hug a tree] :)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    Hi all,

    I can agree with most of the original post. Coming from PvE to PvP in STO is like being a 70 kg lightweight which had some skills in non-contact martial art which wants to start his carrier in full contact mixed martial arts. In STO they put this pure one from the beginning into a cage with Alistair Overeem, an 115 kg MMA Champion (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8fMgKDfd-M). For good reasons they would never do that in any kind of material arts. The only thing you could learn from this would be: “don’t do that never ever again” and this would be a wise decision. Of course you don’t take a risk for your health when playing PvP in STO but many people get very much frustrated quickly and staying away from PvP forever, because they play to have some fun.

    So, if we want to increase the player base for PvP we don’t need to make the PvE more difficult. That wouldn’t help, because it would never be the same as PvP. It would just be like having some tournaments in non-contact martial arts before they put you together with Alistair into the cage. What we finally need is a dynamic ranking system as we have it in all kind of sports. This would increase fun for the newbies (even for the noobs) and the pros. One thing which is really annoying currently in PvP is that the vast majority of the fights are very much one-sided and pointless.

    Beside that I would suggest to make PvP at least more attractive by nice rewards at lower levels, because starting PvP already at the commander level makes the learning curve a little bit less steep. However, even then, entering the PvP at VA level still makes a big difference, because here you will meet the most skilled and best equipped players.

    These are my 2 cents.
    Welan
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    My vote for best post on the forum, well written ricky +10.


    p.s. And no he is not a borg............................................... Its worse he's "Santa":D
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    This thread really needs to be linked in the new pvper thread....

    AND IN BOLD CAPS
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    It's just too bad that the audience who could most benefit from this excellent break down is comprised of the same people who don't think they should have to learn to win, and so they probably haven't or won't finish reading it.

    Tangent: People don't need rewards to PvP. PvP itself should be rewarding with anything else as a nice extra (although not having to PvE to get gear for PvP couldn't hurt). They need an engaging challenging experience. STO already has mind numbing PvE content designed to make you feel good about your RP captain. PvP needs to remain a step (or several) above that. STO doesn't need everyone participating in every aspect of the game all the time. STO needs to appeal to many people with different options to appeal to different tastes.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    RedRicky wrote: »
    Hopefully you're in the PvP forum because you want to learn to PvP. Maybe you just died to 3 volleys from a decloaking Defiant or BoP. Well then, this might just be the wall of text for you. The links are all youtube videos which are the real meat of my analogy.

    STO is the first game I’ve ever PvP’d in. I’d never developed a taste for PvP before, and it was a tough transition. By that I mean like getting hit in the ear with an ice ball on the way to middle school in December. I like it now, I’m hooked on STO space combat. I find PvP challenging and, purely because of the challenge, rewarding. Sometimes I roll over people and sometimes I still take an ice ball in the ear.

    So, my analogy. When I was 10 my mom took me to karate. It took me 8 years to get a black belt. I don’t tell people about it IRL because I’ve come to realize that while it was good for me as a teenager to learn hard work goal setting, the style I learned was what I call a hothouse flower. It was great in the dojo. It was great with people who worked with me, who fought in a certain way that left them vulnerable to what I was going to do; uke, if you're familiar with the term. They were NPCs.
    PvE Martial Arts
    At 0:30 of this video you can see the black belt tanking 4 NPC uke. The stuff going on here looks awesome, and you leave the dojo feeling awesome. You are surrounded by guys who assure you that you are, in fact, awesome.

    Here’s another video that I call the crit match. It’s two hothouse flower styles that fight until somebody gets a lucky crit.
    Two PvE vets fighting.
    I have a hard time watching that without yelling “Punch him in the face!” These guys are sticking to techniques that they believe in, which represent their style, and which they have agreed upon. But the average person has to wonder why they choose the inefficiency of refusing to punch to the face. These are two guys circling each other tossing out boarding parties and jam sensors. Eventually somebody will get a crit and maybe the other guy will blow up, but that’s just because on a long enough timeline the survival rate for everything drops to zero. The problem is, once in a while somebody does actually lose to inefficient tactics, so it's taken as proof of a solid style.

    Next we have a classic video that I have to confess pretty much embodies my first experience with PvP. If you haven’t abandoned this thread for being too long already, watch this and imagine that the guys getting beat up in the first part of the video are NPCs.
    A Martial Arts portrayal of my entrance to PvP
    The kaia master in this video is actually RPing. He makes a tough transition to PvP.

    Currently there are a few usual ways to win an MMA fight. Essentially, you’re looking for a lucky crit from a stand up striking match, a submission, or ground and pound. G&P involves standing or kneeling above your opponent and striking them. It’s brutal, it’s a dogfight (pit-bulls not jets). It’s repugnant to many, especially those who have been raised in a pretty hothouse dojo, much as the massive alpha is repugnant to some Trek fans.
    Efficiency prized above all else.
    G&P has no beauty, no rhythm, no grace. It is efficient and intended to deliver an amount of damage against a resisting opponent that can’t be absorbed.

    This is what turns many newcomers away from STO PvP. While you can make the comparisons between science powers and submissions, at first you're going to be dying to a brute force alpha strike that is as disrespectful as the pounding being laid down in the video just above. It hurts. It hurt my ship and it hurt my pride. But when I went back to PvE and saw the NPCs flying around like dopey uke I knew I had to queue up again for PvP. There was nothing in PvE that was going to G&P me. It was Kirk jumping the gorge in Generations.

    When I started training in grappling I learned that you have to tap out. This means I was worked into a losing position by my opponent and forced to acknowledge it. If you don’t have the ability to admit you’ve lost, and do it over and over again, you won’t learn, grow, or improve as a grappler. If you can’t swallow getting annihilated in an alpha strike over and over in PvP you won’t learn, grow, or improve as a STO pilot. Fighters learn to escape getting G&P’d, and STO pilots learn to survive massive alpha strikes. Lots of people think the alpha is "un-Trek." Maybe it is, maybe it isn't, but you can survive it, I promise.

    Players are human just like you. With the exception of lag, which is the truly unfair part of PvP, everyone has access to the same resources. Aytanhi beat into my head that you can learn something even in a loss. He told me to adapt after I die, that’s why I say he’s part borg. I learned from SteveHale to say “Thanks” at the end of the match, no matter what, which you wouldn’t think is tough, but it is. Nobody can stop you from being a jerk in STO, like in little league when the coach is standing over you making you say “good game.”

    I love STO, the ambiance, the stories, everything. But PvP hooked me because of the challenge. As long as new players continue to queue up, there's always new content. When I find myself against a name I know to be a good pilot it's like a boss fight with the excitement of Christmas morning. When I pop somebody and they respawn only to pop me back, or when I get the PvP holy grail of a 15-15 arena, it doesn’t really matter that I met my PvP dailies an hour before because trading kills is as awesome as this: A satisfying final score.

    Awesome sum up of the PvP learning curve, and the nice thing about PvP is that the learning curve is a very long road and improvements are always in front of you, even for the Top players here that is true.

    Thus will mean there is always new content, even in the most grim situation where there havent been any new PvP maps in like ... 2 years. Or any other PvP content for that matter.

    This is the basis what keeps the PvP alive.

    Cheers! Have fun and I'll see ya in the queues :)

    ggkkthxchnk
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