Oh, and one more problem, when you press the Minus button on the minimap, it zooms in instead of out, and when you press the Plus button, it zooms out instead of in. Awesome.... now when the scroller on your mouse is broken, you have to remember that the buttons on the minmap are broken.
Gah! it's like you read it all, and listened to none of it! HA HA!
We use capsules for entity collision. For people, these are oriented upright. For ships, they're usually laid on their side. They can be long and skinny, or roughly spherical, depending on the ship. The capsule does not totally enclose your entire ship. It is a rough approximation of the size of the ship. With all the complaints about the collision of ships being too big as is, trust me, you do NOT want these to be full shield style elliptic that completely encompass your ship. That would just make your collision bigger.
The collision of all ships has not changed (if you have real issues with ship collision, that can be a separate topic).
The fade, which used to (read, currently on Holodeck/Tribble) start when your camera touched the collision capsule. Now (read, a future build, not on any public servers yet) the fade distance has been set to half the collision distance. So, envision a second capsule that is half the dimensions of the actual collision. When your camera touches that second capsule, the ship fades out.
Alright guys, I've just spent some time with the dev in question. For his personal safety, I shall refer to him as Umberto.
Umberto continued working on this for you guys, because he loves you very much.
Let me say, there is more to this than meets the eye (Transformers Ref +5). The changes to the camera system were, in fact, necessary, and largely beneficial.
Previously, the camera's zoom settings were at set distances. This meant that your camera at any given zoom level, was the exact same distance from the pivot point of your ship, no matter which ship you had selected. This also meant that though the camera was the same distance from the pivot point, the PERCEIVED distance of the camera to your ship was drastically different depending on what size ship you had. On the Odyssey, your camera, zoomed as close as it could be, made your ship look shiny and sexy. However, with your Danube selected, it looked comically small.
The changes that Umberto made in the first place, altering the code to make the zoom level dependent on the size of your ship (size of your ship's collision), made all of this way better. In addition, objects fading when the camera got too close to them was added, so that if something forces your camera inside your Captain's head, you're not seeing the backside of his eyeballs. This is also very beneficial. This addressed camera clipping, which is an actual problem, and isn't something that we should just be telling people to 'suck it up' about.
Obviously, there were some . . . ramifications.
The fading however, on some ships (noteably, larger ships), happened earlier than we would actually like, and as such, the zoom levels for these ships had to be pushed out more. If we were to just allow you to zoom in further on your Odyssey, instead of zooming as you expect, you'd click one more toward your ship, and your ship would disappear. This is also not desirable.
While we understand all of your concerns about this, the OVERALL camera changes are here to stay, as they are a net positive to the rest of the game.
However, because Umberto loves you all so much, he's now pushed that fade out distance inward some. This makes it so that the character (ship/Captain) will still fade out if the camera gets too close, but has also allowed him to push in the closest zoom level on larger ships to nearly what they were before.
I'm saying nearly, because, due to the base level changes in the code, there is no exact number that we just set to be the same (one was a hard number, this is now a soft number). But standing behind Umberto, with your Odyssey screenshots on one monitor, and the game he's altering on the other, we could not tell a difference in zoom levels. It will not be exactly the same, but it's damn close.
Praise be to Umberto, the silent whipping boy of the Trek masses.
The fade, which used to (read, currently on Holodeck/Tribble) start when your camera touched the collision capsule. Now (read, a future build, not on any public servers yet) the fade distance has been set to half the collision distance. So, envision a second capsule that is half the dimensions of the actual collision. When your camera touches that second capsule, the ship fades out.
Sounds great!
So long as the camera stops fading out my Cerberus when I zoom close to it (but not close enough to clip into it.)
Personally I don't mind clipping in to my ships, it lets me get a nice close zoom onto parts into which I'm not clipping. If I don't want to see the clipping, I can rotate out or zoom away, but I liked having the option soon after launch; it allowed me to take some beautiful screenshots.
From what he was showing me on his screen, not only does it look like we can zoom in as far as we could before on the Odyssey and other big ships, it also made the shuttles look 'right' (to me). You will now be able to zoom in much closer to small craft, which should help emphasize the enormity of other ships around you. I truly do believe his changes are for the good of STO (as was his original intent).
I withheld his name, as I don't think it's right to call someone out without their permission (and I was too lazy to walk back over there as I was writing that up). If he wants to reveal himself, then that's awesome, but if not, I have no right to.
As for baked goods, we do receive such gifts periodically. And while they are all eventually consumed, there is always a certain amount of trepidation over the unknown intent behind the gift. For all we know, we could have ****ed someone off, and they could have sent us all poisoned cookies.
While I appreciate the devs' attention to even lesser known problems, this is one I would be much happier seeing a rollback on.
When I play STO, I *love* the ships, I hug my camera close, watching stars streak by while in sector space from near the hull at certain angles, taking whatever screenshots happen along the way.
Now not being able to zoom in frustrates me, much like the camera in the ship tailor, which is annoying enough due to not being able to see any changes made to my ship easily. Now I have to deal with this sort of negative feeling of not being able to admire a ship I regularly use and enjoy while playing the rest of the game.
You may say "But how could you admire your ship from such a close angle anyway?" If you've ever seen a model or toy replica of something like an airplane or boat or even a Star Trek ship, haven't you ever wanted to pretend your eye was the camera, zoom in for a close shot, and just imagine stuff whooshing by close over it and from certain "heroic" angles, like say in a movie or series? Same thing >_<
Even during combat missions, I like being close-CLOSE up with the camera to the most minimum distance from the ship, watching an explosion bloom off to the side...it's dramatic. Yes, I could do the same thing with the demo record tool stuff, but it's not the *same* thing as doing it on the fly, while playing the game and immersing myself in it.
As for the clipping, I've long since skipped over it having seen it plenty of times in games, I know it's something not easily avoided.
If you want to find a common ground on this, make it an option we can override, please...want the ability to zoom in and out however I want (which, in this case, would be the previous way we could, which I'm satisfied with).
Just wanted to make my opinion on this known, this is one of those things me and others I know are kind of annoyed with...
I was just about to post here when this caught my eye. This is exactly how I feel to a tee!
There is not going to be a rollback. There are too many advantages that the new camera changes have afforded us.
Plus, with the changes Umberto made yesterday, you can now zoom back into giant ships as far as you could before. PLUS you can zoom in even FARTHER on smaller ships than ever before. PLUS, we can make even bigger ships (bigger than the Brotas or Odyssey) if we want, without breaking the camera.
This is a win all around.
Can we please just wait til the changes get pushed out, so you can see in person before passing more judgement?
There is not going to be a rollback. There are too many advantages that the new camera changes have afforded us.
Plus, with the changes Umberto made yesterday, you can now zoom back into giant ships as far as you could before. PLUS you can zoom in even FARTHER on smaller ships than ever before. PLUS, we can make even bigger ships (bigger than the Brotas or Odyssey) if we want, without breaking the camera.
This is a win all around.
Can we please just wait til the changes get pushed out, so you can see in person before passing more judgement?
There is not going to be a rollback. There are too many advantages that the new camera changes have afforded us.
Plus, with the changes Umberto made yesterday, you can now zoom back into giant ships as far as you could before. PLUS you can zoom in even FARTHER on smaller ships than ever before. PLUS, we can make even bigger ships (bigger than the Brotas or Odyssey) if we want, without breaking the camera.
This is a win all around.
Can we please just wait til the changes get pushed out, so you can see in person before passing more judgement?
If it's what's currently on tribble it's def a good fix.
PLUS, we can make even bigger ships (bigger than the Brotas or Odyssey) if we want, without breaking the camera.
This is a win all around.
Might I ask, where does the notion come from, that "Big ships, are better than smaller ships" ? One of the most powerful ships in the Federation fleet (pre-STO), is the Defiant, which depending on your source of information, is either 120 meters, or 170 meters in length, at most, little more than 1/4 the length of the Galaxy Class.
You can have a truly MASSIVE ship like the Galaxy Class, and still be outdone by the more maneuvrable and smaller Defiant Class.
The Odyssey and Bortas are "big enough". The largest enemy ship (besides the Borg ships), was the Romulan Warbird. We don't need any city-sized starships floating about, dwarfing everything else.
To Umberto, the silent whipping boy of the Trek masses,
Thanx for the hard work you have done for STO on behalf of the playerbase:cool:.You and the rest of STO's staff does a bang-up job for haveing a small staff .
I wasn't saying that we SHOULD make bigger ships, or that bigger ships are better. I'm just saying that the new camera work that Umberto has been doing, opens up more possibilities than we had before.
Might I ask, where does the notion come from, that "Big ships, are better than smaller ships" ? One of the most powerful ships in the Federation fleet (pre-STO), is the Defiant, which depending on your source of information, is either 120 meters, or 170 meters in length, at most, little more than 1/4 the length of the Galaxy Class.
You can have a truly MASSIVE ship like the Galaxy Class, and still be outdone by the more maneuvrable and smaller Defiant Class.
The Odyssey and Bortas are "big enough". The largest enemy ship (besides the Borg ships), was the Romulan Warbird. We don't need any city-sized starships floating about, dwarfing everything else.
Well, prior to TNG, the biggest starship was the Excelsior. Galaxy class ships were twice as long, deep, and wide as a Constitution class vessel. This allowed for about 8 times more internal volume.
Mind you, not all ships necessarily need to be bigger. But, you can't say what the maximum size necessary is for a particular mission profile until you encounter the need to do so. I don't think Cryptic is hedging their bets for larger ships. But, they shouldn't be hamstrung by individual personal beliefs either.
I wasn't saying that we SHOULD make bigger ships, or that bigger ships are better. I'm just saying that the new camera work that Umberto has been doing, opens up more possibilities than we had before.
So now you could make a mission were we take command of a Borg cube and we could see where were going.
So now you could make a mission were we take command of a Borg cube and we could see where were going.
Theoretically (haven't tried it) yes.
You would be able to see where you're going. The Cube wouldn't disappear (the camera wouldn't be inside of it), and all of those puny, insignificant other ships like the Odyssey, would appear puny and insignificant.
I wasn't saying that we SHOULD make bigger ships, or that bigger ships are better. I'm just saying that the new camera work that Umberto has been doing, opens up more possibilities than we had before.
So what you're saying is:
Borg Cubes in the lockbox next month.
The month after that, it's Cardassian Nor stations with maneuvering thrusters and a warp drive.
There is not going to be a rollback. There are too many advantages that the new camera changes have afforded us.
Plus, with the changes Umberto made yesterday, you can now zoom back into giant ships as far as you could before. PLUS you can zoom in even FARTHER on smaller ships than ever before. PLUS, we can make even bigger ships (bigger than the Brotas or Odyssey) if we want, without breaking the camera.
This is a win all around.
Can we please just wait til the changes get pushed out, so you can see in person before passing more judgement?
Is Cryptic preparing for the Romulan faction and their 2km long Warbirds?
For the record, I looked through my screenshots and I can say without question that I cannot zoom into my Odyssey as far as I could before. It's somewhat close, but not at all indistiguishable.
Here's a shot I took awhile back while trying to get something done about the non-glowing reflective windows on the middle ring of DS9:
For the record, I looked through my screenshots and I can say without question that I cannot zoom into my Odyssey as far as I could before. It's somewhat close, but not at all indistiguishable.
Here's a shot I took awhile back while trying to get something done about the non-glowing reflective windows on the middle ring of DS9:
I read that post, but I think I misunderstood in thinking the changes were on Tribble.
I'll wait and take more shots once that's confirmed.
-Forjo
nah that was the 1st 'fix' that wasn't, we haven't seen Umberto's second fix yet. I'm hoping everyone in the office now calls our unknown dev Umberto btw, if not I'd get that ball rolling Tumerboy..
nah that was the 1st 'fix' that wasn't, we haven't seen Umberto's second fix yet. I'm hoping everyone in the office now calls our unknown dev Umberto btw, if not I'd get that ball rolling Tumerboy..
Confirmed -- the patch notes for Tribble were just posted and the fix is in them. Will take some more screenshots after Tribble comes back up.
I held off from saying welcome Tumberboy... and this was why
Now, that you are getting to grips with what you have gotten yourself into, I'd like to extend my best wishes and welcome you to the "nut house" we like to call the STO forums, with the new slogan "count to 10 then....."
And I hope you have the "PLEASE BE PATIENT!" saved to a notepad file, as your going to get mighty fed up of typing it
Well, I'm pleased with the pic of the new fix. You got the nacelles going off the screen so I know it is in close again, I can call off the honey and fire ant delivery. Thanks
p.s. I know now not to get excited about today's tribble notes, even though I did for a moment....
Just wondering but what is the funny coloured outline around the ship for? That isnt coming to Holodeck too is it.. :eek:
I noticed it on the pic showing the bad zoom level, but thought it was just a glitch, but now I do see it in the fixed pic, a slightly faded rectangle around the ship, and it isn't in any of my old pics.. darn, it looks like a new problem TB... way more noticeable in the pic with the bad zoom level though, much less in the fixed pic.
According to the notes, the new zoom is on Tribble now, I can check as I am busy trying to stop the nerf brigade from turning the Odyssey in a T1-6 ship (since they are all flying escorts or Excelsior-Rs).
I noticed it on the pic showing the bad zoom level, but thought it was just a glitch, but now I do see it in the fixed pic, a slightly faded rectangle around the ship, and it isn't in any of my old pics.. darn, it looks like a new problem TB... way more noticeable in the pic with the bad zoom level though, much less in the fixed pic.
Comments
We use capsules for entity collision. For people, these are oriented upright. For ships, they're usually laid on their side. They can be long and skinny, or roughly spherical, depending on the ship. The capsule does not totally enclose your entire ship. It is a rough approximation of the size of the ship. With all the complaints about the collision of ships being too big as is, trust me, you do NOT want these to be full shield style elliptic that completely encompass your ship. That would just make your collision bigger.
The collision of all ships has not changed (if you have real issues with ship collision, that can be a separate topic).
The fade, which used to (read, currently on Holodeck/Tribble) start when your camera touched the collision capsule. Now (read, a future build, not on any public servers yet) the fade distance has been set to half the collision distance. So, envision a second capsule that is half the dimensions of the actual collision. When your camera touches that second capsule, the ship fades out.
I'm looking forward to seeing the results when they get pushed out. I'm going to pre-thank 'Umberto' for the extra work, and get ready to compare for myself. .....I'm hoping my Ody pic was the one used for the zoom comparison http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb204/CapnBludd/STO/screenshot_2012-02-02-21-34-20-1.jpg
I want to see those nacelles go off the screen like they used to, or at least touch the edges
Sounds great!
So long as the camera stops fading out my Cerberus when I zoom close to it (but not close enough to clip into it.)
Personally I don't mind clipping in to my ships, it lets me get a nice close zoom onto parts into which I'm not clipping. If I don't want to see the clipping, I can rotate out or zoom away, but I liked having the option soon after launch; it allowed me to take some beautiful screenshots.
+5 Respect for Tumerboy.
I was just about to post here when this caught my eye. This is exactly how I feel to a tee!
Plus, with the changes Umberto made yesterday, you can now zoom back into giant ships as far as you could before. PLUS you can zoom in even FARTHER on smaller ships than ever before. PLUS, we can make even bigger ships (bigger than the Brotas or Odyssey) if we want, without breaking the camera.
This is a win all around.
Can we please just wait til the changes get pushed out, so you can see in person before passing more judgement?
The new changes sound awesome.
If it's what's currently on tribble it's def a good fix.
Might I ask, where does the notion come from, that "Big ships, are better than smaller ships" ? One of the most powerful ships in the Federation fleet (pre-STO), is the Defiant, which depending on your source of information, is either 120 meters, or 170 meters in length, at most, little more than 1/4 the length of the Galaxy Class.
You can have a truly MASSIVE ship like the Galaxy Class, and still be outdone by the more maneuvrable and smaller Defiant Class.
The Odyssey and Bortas are "big enough". The largest enemy ship (besides the Borg ships), was the Romulan Warbird. We don't need any city-sized starships floating about, dwarfing everything else.
Thanx for the hard work you have done for STO on behalf of the playerbase:cool:.You and the rest of STO's staff does a bang-up job for haveing a small staff
Well, prior to TNG, the biggest starship was the Excelsior. Galaxy class ships were twice as long, deep, and wide as a Constitution class vessel. This allowed for about 8 times more internal volume.
Mind you, not all ships necessarily need to be bigger. But, you can't say what the maximum size necessary is for a particular mission profile until you encounter the need to do so. I don't think Cryptic is hedging their bets for larger ships. But, they shouldn't be hamstrung by individual personal beliefs either.
As soon as the changes are made live, I shall cry havoc and unleash the dogs of judgment. Pray it goes well, or a pox upon ye.
All kidding (?) aside, I look forward to seeing the changes for myself.
So now you could make a mission were we take command of a Borg cube and we could see where were going.
Theoretically (haven't tried it) yes.
You would be able to see where you're going. The Cube wouldn't disappear (the camera wouldn't be inside of it), and all of those puny, insignificant other ships like the Odyssey, would appear puny and insignificant.
. . . hypothetically. . .
So what you're saying is:
Borg Cubes in the lockbox next month.
The month after that, it's Cardassian Nor stations with maneuvering thrusters and a warp drive.
;-D
Is Cryptic preparing for the Romulan faction and their 2km long Warbirds?
Here's a shot I took awhile back while trying to get something done about the non-glowing reflective windows on the middle ring of DS9:
Screenshot
Here's one I took today on Tribble, trying to get the same angle -- which was impossible due to the wider zoom.
Screenshot
From the front of the ship, it's even worse:
Before, After
If this is indeed adjustable, please push it in more.
-Forjo
/poke read the dev posts and wait to see what it looks like when it gets patched, you're a bit late;)
This is the relevant post at the moment, we're waiting to see the results in the next patch. http://forums.startrekonline.com/showpost.php?p=4091975&postcount=347
I read that post, but I think I misunderstood in thinking the changes were on Tribble.
I'll wait and take more shots once that's confirmed.
-Forjo
nah that was the 1st 'fix' that wasn't, we haven't seen Umberto's second fix yet. I'm hoping everyone in the office now calls our unknown dev Umberto btw, if not I'd get that ball rolling Tumerboy..
Confirmed -- the patch notes for Tribble were just posted and the fix is in them. Will take some more screenshots after Tribble comes back up.
-Forjo
This was changed just over 24 hours ago, in the code, at work. Nothing has made it into a build for you guys yet. Not for Tribble, not for Holodeck.
PLEASE BE PATIENT!
In an attempt to tide you over, here's CapnBludd's shots from earlier in the thread, and a screenshot I took 5 minutes ago.
Before: http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb204/CapnBludd/STO/screenshot_2012-02-02-21-34-20-1.jpg
After: http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb204/CapnBludd/STO/screenshot_2012-03-09-10-44-59-1.jpg
Extra After: http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7060/6837022994_9a75cded53_o.jpg
I held off from saying welcome Tumberboy... and this was why
Now, that you are getting to grips with what you have gotten yourself into, I'd like to extend my best wishes and welcome you to the "nut house" we like to call the STO forums, with the new slogan "count to 10 then....."
And I hope you have the "PLEASE BE PATIENT!" saved to a notepad file, as your going to get mighty fed up of typing it
Just wondering but what is the funny coloured outline around the ship for? That isnt coming to Holodeck too is it.. :eek:
Well, I'm pleased with the pic of the new fix. You got the nacelles going off the screen so I know it is in close again, I can call off the honey and fire ant delivery. Thanks
p.s. I know now not to get excited about today's tribble notes, even though I did for a moment....
I noticed it on the pic showing the bad zoom level, but thought it was just a glitch, but now I do see it in the fixed pic, a slightly faded rectangle around the ship, and it isn't in any of my old pics.. darn, it looks like a new problem TB... way more noticeable in the pic with the bad zoom level though, much less in the fixed pic.
http://img.chan4chan.com/img/2009-03-02/1235971365134.jpg