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Why the change in minimum camera distance in space?

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  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    "Cryptic, my ship clips when I zoom in all the way.."
    "Then don't zoom in all the way please..."


    Exactly, if people don't like the clip they don't need to zoom in, don't punish the whole player base for a few complaints from the minority. Fix the zoom to what it was originally not what you tried to pass off in the current tribble patch cryptic.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    OK, the zoom I'd better with the current build. But still not quite it needs to be for my taste. But I want to be about to get closer to the hull of the ship. It maybe out of ordinary, but one of my pleasures in the game is just flying around in the game in my favorite ships. I like to be able to zoom in and out to admire the ships.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    fuzun wrote: »
    snip

    It maybe out of ordinary, but one of my pleasures in the game is just flying around in the game in my favorite ships. I like to be able to zoom in and out to admire the ships.

    I don't think so, I think most of us enjoy doing this, the current angle is still not enough. However it is on Tribble, it is being tested, I'm sure there are other reasons behind this than the simple clipping issue, perhaps it clashes with some secret upcoming project? I'm sure it will be resolved in due course.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    Would this have any effect on cutscenes? For example, the beginning cutscene in "Boldly They Rode", on most ships, the camera is just fine, with the player's ship flying in close to the camera from behind, but with massive ships like the Bortas, the ship plows straight through the camera instead.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    Would this have any effect on cutscenes? For example, the beginning cutscene in "Boldly They Rode", on most ships, the camera is just fine, with the player's ship flying in close to the camera from behind, but with massive ships like the Bortas, the ship plows straight through the camera instead.

    I've previously noticed that issue and the fix should be made to the cut scene and not via the zoom degree.

    Totally separate issues that should be addressed separately imo. :)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    cut scene cameras are separate. If you know of a cut scene where the camera clips through larger ships, please let us know and we'll try to adjust those camera positions.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    Btw, for the devs... I don't know what people told you was the problem for camera distance on the Bortas / Odyssey. But I can tell you two things from my own experience:

    1. The camera distance is still too far away (even after the "fix" on Tribble).

    2. The "clipping" problem is specifically while warping, and not while playing normally. During warp-out scenes, the Bortas camera goes in the back of the ship. This was not fixed by changing the minimum camera distance, and I suspect it never will be.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    Tumerboy wrote: »
    cut scene cameras are separate. If you know of a cut scene where the camera clips through larger ships, please let us know and we'll try to adjust those camera positions.

    The camera clipped through the back of my Bortas when warping out of DS9 Space last night (fairly certain it was DS9 space). This I can forgive as space was likely very crowded and there was nowhere for the camera to go. The camera was forced to the only "open" area, which was in the aft section of the ship, but outside the bounding box.

    Still, I'd rather clip the ship sometimes than have to be so far out.

    While we're talking about camera positions, I'd love to have a few different focal points. Maybe one point at the edge of each facing box, where the camera is centered on something other than the bounding box. I'm sure it is possible, but probably time prohibitive. Maybe we could set the camera position via a / command.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    Tumerboy wrote: »
    cut scene cameras are separate. If you know of a cut scene where the camera clips through larger ships, please let us know and we'll try to adjust those camera positions.

    Don't know if this is the same thing but doing Of Bajor the other day and the cut scene where I was explaining the mechanics of the wormhole to Loris only her head was above the platform she was standing on, the body was too low and under the floor LOL, looked quite comical.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    Tumerboy wrote: »
    cut scene cameras are separate. If you know of a cut scene where the camera clips through larger ships, please let us know and we'll try to adjust those camera positions.

    ^^^
    FYI - anytime you 'warp out' of a star system with the Anniversary 'Bostasqu' - clips into the ship every time.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    I agree with Fuzun that the camera distance is significantly better on the Tribble build. However, I too would've enjoyed getting closer as long as clipping with the back of the Odyssey nacelles could be avoided.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    Wisty wrote:
    Unless this is returned to how it was, I won't be buying any of the upcoming flagship variants. Not a single one. Whereas before, I would have paid money for all of them the second they are available.
    As things stand, I open the launcher out of habit, then remember that my Odyessy is tiny and promptly close it and go and play Skyrim instead.

    It's your own pocket you're hurting here.

    My STO-dometer's needle is leaning this way. And the Skyrim thing--hyperbole? No, I have literally done that since the borked zoom.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    AstrisVox wrote:
    My STO-dometer's needle is leaning this way. And the Skyrim thing--hyperbole? No, I have literally done that since the borked zoom.

    I'm running my last toon for the limited time FE reward as I type this. Once that is complete, I'm shutting down the game until such time as this is fixed, fully and completely. If that time is 'never,' then so be it.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Perfect World Entertainment Community Rules and Policies. ~Alecto
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    Zoberraz wrote: »
    I agree with Fuzun that the camera distance is significantly better on the Tribble build. However, I too would've enjoyed getting closer as long as clipping with the back of the Odyssey nacelles could be avoided.

    It could always be avoided. If you get so close that you clip the nacelles, roll your mouse wheel back one click and enjoy the game. No problem whatsoever.

    Limiting the zoom to fix a non-issue hampers far more players than it helps. It's not possible to roll that wheel one more click inwards, as the game now limits you.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    Alright guys, I've just spent some time with the dev in question. For his personal safety, I shall refer to him as Umberto.

    Umberto continued working on this for you guys, because he loves you very much.
    Let me say, there is more to this than meets the eye (Transformers Ref +5). The changes to the camera system were, in fact, necessary, and largely beneficial.

    Previously, the camera's zoom settings were at set distances. This meant that your camera at any given zoom level, was the exact same distance from the pivot point of your ship, no matter which ship you had selected. This also meant that though the camera was the same distance from the pivot point, the PERCEIVED distance of the camera to your ship was drastically different depending on what size ship you had. On the Odyssey, your camera, zoomed as close as it could be, made your ship look shiny and sexy. However, with your Danube selected, it looked comically small.

    The changes that Umberto made in the first place, altering the code to make the zoom level dependent on the size of your ship (size of your ship's collision), made all of this way better. In addition, objects fading when the camera got too close to them was added, so that if something forces your camera inside your Captain's head, you're not seeing the backside of his eyeballs. This is also very beneficial. This addressed camera clipping, which is an actual problem, and isn't something that we should just be telling people to 'suck it up' about.

    Obviously, there were some . . . ramifications.

    The fading however, on some ships (noteably, larger ships), happened earlier than we would actually like, and as such, the zoom levels for these ships had to be pushed out more. If we were to just allow you to zoom in further on your Odyssey, instead of zooming as you expect, you'd click one more toward your ship, and your ship would disappear. This is also not desirable.

    While we understand all of your concerns about this, the OVERALL camera changes are here to stay, as they are a net positive to the rest of the game.

    However, because Umberto loves you all so much, he's now pushed that fade out distance inward some. This makes it so that the character (ship/Captain) will still fade out if the camera gets too close, but has also allowed him to push in the closest zoom level on larger ships to nearly what they were before.

    I'm saying nearly, because, due to the base level changes in the code, there is no exact number that we just set to be the same (one was a hard number, this is now a soft number). But standing behind Umberto, with your Odyssey screenshots on one monitor, and the game he's altering on the other, we could not tell a difference in zoom levels. It will not be exactly the same, but it's damn close.

    Praise be to Umberto, the silent whipping boy of the Trek masses.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    Tumerboy wrote: »
    Alright guys, I've just spent some time with the dev in question. For his personal safety, I shall refer to him as Umberto.

    Umberto continued working on this for you guys, because he loves you very much.
    Let me say, there is more to this than meets the eye (Transformers Ref +5). The changes to the camera system were, in fact, necessary, and largely beneficial.

    Previously, the camera's zoom settings were at set distances. This meant that your camera at any given zoom level, was the exact same distance from the pivot point of your ship, no matter which ship you had selected. This also meant that though the camera was the same distance from the pivot point, the PERCEIVED distance of the camera to your ship was drastically different depending on what size ship you had. On the Odyssey, your camera, zoomed as close as it could be, made your ship look shiny and sexy. However, with your Danube selected, it looked comically small.

    The changes that Umberto made in the first place, altering the code to make the zoom level dependent on the size of your ship (size of your ship's collision), made all of this way better. In addition, objects fading when the camera got too close to them was added, so that if something forces your camera inside your Captain's head, you're not seeing the backside of his eyeballs. This is also very beneficial. This addressed camera clipping, which is an actual problem, and isn't something that we should just be telling people to 'suck it up' about.

    Obviously, there were some . . . ramifications.

    The fading however, on some ships (noteably, larger ships), happened earlier than we would actually like, and as such, the zoom levels for these ships had to be pushed out more. If we were to just allow you to zoom in further on your Odyssey, instead of zooming as you expect, you'd click one more toward your ship, and your ship would disappear. This is also not desirable.

    While we understand all of your concerns about this, the OVERALL camera changes are here to stay, as they are a net positive to the rest of the game.

    However, because Umberto loves you all so much, he's now pushed that fade out distance inward some. This makes it so that the character (ship/Captain) will still fade out if the camera gets too close, but has also allowed him to push in the closest zoom level on larger ships to nearly what they were before.

    I'm saying nearly, because, due to the base level changes in the code, there is no exact number that we just set to be the same (one was a hard number, this is now a soft number). But standing behind Umberto, with your Odyssey screenshots on one monitor, and the game he's altering on the other, we could not tell a difference in zoom levels. It will not be exactly the same, but it's damn close.

    Praise be to Umberto, the silent whipping boy of the Trek masses.

    If I can zoom in as close as I could before (ie the way I like it) then Im happy if not I think my c-store purchasing days and my days of playing sto at all will be coming to and end in the near future I dont want to play with micro machines. EDIT: If its like you say almost identical to how it was before thats cool I just hate having my giant ships zoomed way far out that change ruined things for me this last week. I had to change ships I flew and wasnt really happy.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    Tumerboy wrote: »
    Praise be to Umberto, the silent whipping boy of the Trek masses.

    Please relay my heart felt "Thank You" to Umberto The Nameless ;). And I thank Cryptic for listening to the player feedback and acting upon it within the scope of the over change. (Take that you naysayers. You know who you are.) And Thank You Tumerboy for being a freelance Ambassador at large.

    Now about those ship interiors.... :p
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    Excellent news. Thanks to Tumerboy and Umberto.

    I do have to say as an Escort (and frequently Shuttle when they used to have missions) captain, that there were many cases where I just felt too far zoomed out. This may be why part of my reaction was to feel that we could never get close enough to begin with.

    If we can now get just about as close as we were before, then this solves the issue for me. I look forward to having my ship feel small beside the new flag ship classes.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    Tumerboy wrote: »
    Alright guys, I've just spent some time with the dev in question. For his personal safety, I shall refer to him as Umberto.

    Umberto continued working on this for you guys, because he loves you very much.
    Let me say, there is more to this than meets the eye (Transformers Ref +5). The changes to the camera system were, in fact, necessary, and largely beneficial.

    Previously, the camera's zoom settings were at set distances. This meant that your camera at any given zoom level, was the exact same distance from the pivot point of your ship, no matter which ship you had selected. This also meant that though the camera was the same distance from the pivot point, the PERCEIVED distance of the camera to your ship was drastically different depending on what size ship you had. On the Odyssey, your camera, zoomed as close as it could be, made your ship look shiny and sexy. However, with your Danube selected, it looked comically small.

    The changes that Umberto made in the first place, altering the code to make the zoom level dependent on the size of your ship (size of your ship's collision), made all of this way better. In addition, objects fading when the camera got too close to them was added, so that if something forces your camera inside your Captain's head, you're not seeing the backside of his eyeballs. This is also very beneficial. This addressed camera clipping, which is an actual problem, and isn't something that we should just be telling people to 'suck it up' about.

    Obviously, there were some . . . ramifications.

    The fading however, on some ships (noteably, larger ships), happened earlier than we would actually like, and as such, the zoom levels for these ships had to be pushed out more. If we were to just allow you to zoom in further on your Odyssey, instead of zooming as you expect, you'd click one more toward your ship, and your ship would disappear. This is also not desirable.

    While we understand all of your concerns about this, the OVERALL camera changes are here to stay, as they are a net positive to the rest of the game.

    However, because Umberto loves you all so much, he's now pushed that fade out distance inward some. This makes it so that the character (ship/Captain) will still fade out if the camera gets too close, but has also allowed him to push in the closest zoom level on larger ships to nearly what they were before.

    I'm saying nearly, because, due to the base level changes in the code, there is no exact number that we just set to be the same (one was a hard number, this is now a soft number). But standing behind Umberto, with your Odyssey screenshots on one monitor, and the game he's altering on the other, we could not tell a difference in zoom levels. It will not be exactly the same, but it's damn close.

    Praise be to Umberto, the silent whipping boy of the Trek masses.

    Thanks for the explanation and extra work (both of you)!
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    Tumerboy wrote: »
    Alright guys, I've just spent some time with the dev in question. For his personal safety, I shall refer to him as Umberto.

    Umberto continued working on this for you guys, because he loves you very much.
    Let me say, there is more to this than meets the eye (Transformers Ref +5). The changes to the camera system were, in fact, necessary, and largely beneficial.

    Previously, the camera's zoom settings were at set distances. This meant that your camera at any given zoom level, was the exact same distance from the pivot point of your ship, no matter which ship you had selected. This also meant that though the camera was the same distance from the pivot point, the PERCEIVED distance of the camera to your ship was drastically different depending on what size ship you had. On the Odyssey, your camera, zoomed as close as it could be, made your ship look shiny and sexy. However, with your Danube selected, it looked comically small.

    The changes that Umberto made in the first place, altering the code to make the zoom level dependent on the size of your ship (size of your ship's collision), made all of this way better. In addition, objects fading when the camera got too close to them was added, so that if something forces your camera inside your Captain's head, you're not seeing the backside of his eyeballs. This is also very beneficial. This addressed camera clipping, which is an actual problem, and isn't something that we should just be telling people to 'suck it up' about.

    Obviously, there were some . . . ramifications.

    The fading however, on some ships (noteably, larger ships), happened earlier than we would actually like, and as such, the zoom levels for these ships had to be pushed out more. If we were to just allow you to zoom in further on your Odyssey, instead of zooming as you expect, you'd click one more toward your ship, and your ship would disappear. This is also not desirable.

    While we understand all of your concerns about this, the OVERALL camera changes are here to stay, as they are a net positive to the rest of the game.

    However, because Umberto loves you all so much, he's now pushed that fade out distance inward some. This makes it so that the character (ship/Captain) will still fade out if the camera gets too close, but has also allowed him to push in the closest zoom level on larger ships to nearly what they were before.

    I'm saying nearly, because, due to the base level changes in the code, there is no exact number that we just set to be the same (one was a hard number, this is now a soft number). But standing behind Umberto, with your Odyssey screenshots on one monitor, and the game he's altering on the other, we could not tell a difference in zoom levels. It will not be exactly the same, but it's damn close.

    Praise be to Umberto, the silent whipping boy of the Trek masses.

    Since Umberto did his best to get us a fix that's hopefully acceptable, why protect his identity? We want to thank him with shipped baked goods. :p
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    Katic wrote: »
    Since Umberto did his best to get us a fix that's hopefully acceptable, why protect his identity? We want to thank him with shipped baked goods. :p

    And bacon. Don't forget the bacon.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    From what he was showing me on his screen, not only does it look like we can zoom in as far as we could before on the Odyssey and other big ships, it also made the shuttles look 'right' (to me). You will now be able to zoom in much closer to small craft, which should help emphasize the enormity of other ships around you. I truly do believe his changes are for the good of STO (as was his original intent).

    I withheld his name, as I don't think it's right to call someone out without their permission (and I was too lazy to walk back over there as I was writing that up). If he wants to reveal himself, then that's awesome, but if not, I have no right to.

    As for baked goods, we do receive such gifts periodically. And while they are all eventually consumed, there is always a certain amount of trepidation over the unknown intent behind the gift. For all we know, we could have ****ed someone off, and they could have sent us all poisoned cookies.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    If I can zoom in as close as I could before (ie the way I like it) then Im happy if not I think my c-store purchasing days and my days of playing sto at all will be coming to and end in the near future I dont want to play with micro machines. EDIT: If its like you say almost identical to how it was before thats cool I just hate having my giant ships zoomed way far out that change ruined things for me this last week. I had to change ships I flew and wasnt really happy.

    Well the way zoomed changed in the latest tribble patch is very close to how it used to be.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    Tumerboy wrote: »
    From what he was showing me on his screen, not only does it look like we can zoom in as far as we could before on the Odyssey and other big ships, it also made the shuttles look 'right' (to me). You will now be able to zoom in much closer to small craft, which should help emphasize the enormity of other ships around you. I truly do believe his changes are for the good of STO (as was his original intent).

    I withheld his name, as I don't think it's right to call someone out without their permission (and I was too lazy to walk back over there as I was writing that up). If he wants to reveal himself, then that's awesome, but if not, I have no right to.

    As for baked goods, we do receive such gifts periodically. And while they are all eventually consumed, there is always a certain amount of trepidation over the unknown intent behind the gift. For all we know, we could have ****ed someone off, and they could have sent us all poisoned cookies.

    LOL, never.

    Many thanks for the feedback throughout this thread Tumerboy and thanks to both of you for sorting it out, it's greatly appreciated.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    Tumerboy wrote: »
    Alright guys, I've just spent some time with the dev in question. For his personal safety, I shall refer to him as Umberto.... Praise be to Umberto, the silent whipping boy of the Trek masses.
    I had no horse in this race. No offense to those to whom it mattered, but I didn't notice this "problem" or care either way. But I do follow the Dev Tracker, so was aware of the situation. I only post to say thanks to Tumerboy.

    Thanks for the well-written description of the problem and its resolution. Primarily thanks for your sense of humor and entertainment. I was LOLing my aft section off while reading this.


    All hail Umberto, and all hail Tumerboy, indeed!
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    I'm guessing the change Umberto made isn't patched to Holodeck yet, but...

    Tumerboy do you know if he reduced the ship collision size overall for all ships? I recall you stating that you brought it up, thank you for that and in general being as helpful as you are. :)

    I'm assuming the length of the radius from a centre point to the circumference is different for each type of ship as not all ships are the same size, also assuming the collision size is spherical in shape and believing it to still be connected to camera zoom.

    If the above is true it would be ideal if the collision size would be changed from spherical in shape to ellipsoid in shape similar to a warp bubble which will encompass most of the vessels used by the major powers perfectly, unless of course a vessel is a different shape.

    Perhaps you folks already use different shaped collision boxes, I don't know but still think reducing collision size while it's connected to the camera zoom will fix two issues via a single solution.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    Alecto wrote: »
    I'm guessing the change Umberto made isn't patched to Holodeck yet, but...

    Tumerboy do you know if he reduced the ship collision size overall for all ships? I recall you stating that you brought it up, thank you for that and in general being as helpful as you are. :)

    I'm assuming the length of the radius from a centre point to the circumference is different for each type of ship as not all ships are the same size, also assuming the collision size is spherical in shape and believing it to still be connected to camera zoom.

    If the above is true it would be ideal if the collision size would be changed from spherical in shape to ellipsoid in shape similar to a warp bubble which will encompass most of the vessels used by the major powers perfectly, unless of course a vessel is a different shape.

    Perhaps you folks already use different shaped collision boxes, I don't know but still think reducing collision size while it's connected to the camera zoom will fix two issues via a single solution.

    I agree the collision bubble should be Ellipsoid.. But I'd want it precisely matched to the Shields of each type of playable ship. That way, it's not a meta "collision box", but merely our ships shields. :D
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    Zoberraz wrote: »
    I agree with Fuzun that the camera distance is significantly better on the Tribble build. However, I too would've enjoyed getting closer as long as clipping with the back of the Odyssey nacelles could be avoided.

    Zoom out a bit, problem solved.
    Tumerboy wrote: »
    The fading however, on some ships (noteably, larger ships), happened earlier than we would actually like, and as such, the zoom levels for these ships had to be pushed out more. If we were to just allow you to zoom in further on your Odyssey, instead of zooming as you expect, you'd click one more toward your ship, and your ship would disappear. This is also not desirable.

    Yes, I've noticed the fade out on my Cerberus class. It's not nice. The camera is not in a position where it would clip through the hull, yet I cannot get a nice close up view of my ship because it turns to frosted glass as soon as I do. If the fade distance could be brought in on the smaller ships, too, that would be very nice.
    Tumerboy wrote: »
    As for baked goods, we do receive such gifts periodically. And while they are all eventually consumed, there is always a certain amount of trepidation over the unknown intent behind the gift. For all we know, we could have ****ed someone off, and they could have sent us all poisoned cookies.

    If Logan's still around, you can ask him about the gifts we sent when he made us especially proud of his work. I'm not saying that I'll be sending Umberto any free beer as I did with CapnLogan (as he will just be repairing something he wrecked) but I will stop burning him in effigy. :p
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    So a true fix has finally been made for the next patch? :confused:
This discussion has been closed.