My apologies if this is the wrong forum for this discussion, but I think that anyone who is a part of gaming culture needs to talk about this. To that end, let me start the discussion with a video essay:
http://moviebob.blogspot.com/2012/03/big-picture-not-okay.html
In many ways, nerd culture is more.... sociopolitically advanced than the general culture. We embraced racial diversity in Star Trek and other science fiction franchises decades before the rest of the country. And yet, in one particular area, we tend to fall down: gender issues. I'm sorry to say, but the gaming subculture of nerd-dom is probably the worst among nerds.
I do not think it's OK. I do not think it's OK to accept games that treat women as sex objects first and people second, but I really think it's not OK when individuals mistreat women, whether it's on a forum somewhere or in an online game.
There was even a thread in the main STO discussion forum in which a female gamer complained about treatment she received in fleet chat, which is in part why I'm starting this thread. I think more of us need to speak out when we see things like this in a game or on the forums, and let's be honest: we've all seen it, haven't we?
Each MMORPG has its own player culture, and I'm thankful to say that the STO culture is a great deal less misogynist than WoW's player culture, but we still see it, and I think we need to speak out when we see it instead of leaving the target of the abuse to argue her own case against some troglodyte or group of troglodytes.
To the moderators: if this is the wrong forum, can you move this thread to the appropriate forum?
Comments
I started my gaming career rather naive and ended up learning the hard way in STO:
I brought a bunch of women I know to join a large fleet and that became a very sad story as none of the fleet's senior officers knew how to protect us from the many unwanted advances we got.
I also tried to assist with greviances voiced by others who posted on the forums (like in the example you quoted) despite my manner of posting and the subject matter being very controversial.
I have also, for a change of environment, joined an GLBT fleet just to see how they dealt with gender diversity and possible discrimination from others.
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In conclusion I will say that the issue is all about Fleet management and not the individuals. Do the people in command know how to manage a balanced group of men and women and maintain fleet cohesion and maintain fairness for all?
As a fleet leader (actually, just a small RP guild leader now) it is my reponsibility to make sure everyone in my organization knows about the fleet's code of conduct and also let everyone know the challenges faced by female or even transgendered players, (the latter I have no objection to).
Only the person in command can really bridge the barrier between the genders and make possible true equality.
Because if left unregulated you have two very dangerous casus belli between the respective 'warring parties': -
1. Males lavishing attention on women (regardless of OOC identity) and causing disruption in Fleet activities due to unwanted advances on those women who have no desire or tolerance to such
2. Females who have made themselves too much of a target for attention or have raised family concerns with the married men in said Fleet (especially where voice chat is concerned)
It takes two hands to clap, and as harsh as it sounds I want to receive personal blame if there is a female/male argument or complaint. Individual members of the society should not have to deal with this because the person in the centre seat should be dictating group policy.
It sounds difficult because Fleets can be big, but let me assure you I don't see this type of conflict in my groups... partly because I have listened to both sides of the equation IRL and don't wish to see anyone get hurt if I can help it.
So I will always hide the ban-stick, sit both parties in my ready room, and interview them as canon characters like Picard and Janeway would do. Find out the root cause of the problem and advise the dissenting parties how to deal with the situation and how a fleet wide argument can impact our organizational performance.
As far as my group is concerned I will always respect the ladies in my group because by participating in paramilitary-styled in-game roleplay under strict Soviet era flight protocol, they are going the extra mile to fit into my organization and to learn a skillset that few other RP groups implement and enforce.
By addressing them at all times as ma'am or Ms. in chat, the male players of the organization also do not try and bring up personal matters because they regard the lady officers as persons with authority.
And for that matter, if the male players are in the minority for the day, I call them Sir.
They kind of like it, because it does enhance in-character communication in a strange way, as though people are encouraged to talk to one another or wait for command decisions : -
Very medieval... but for my case it works well. Maybe I'm born in the wrong era, but maybe some of you can glean some ideas off it. And no, I don't wish war between the two species. We've seen too much of it lately even on the forums.
Please don't hate me for the kind of ideas I bring to this table. Just consider it a survival skill I've learned IRL, and which has kept my small crew together despite the troubles we faced.
While I'm not going to defend people who are rascist, sexist, homophobic, blah, blah (there's a damn long list and i'm too tired to cover it all) because yes their behaviour is more than likely in poor taste ... the real problem tend to be with those who are willing to subject themselves to such situations.
As a Senior Fleet Officer and Quartermaster for my fleet, some of the more mature players refer to me as "Ma'am" or "Admiral." TBH I've only ever been hit on twice playing the game and it was quite some time ago. The last time i can remember it happening my teammate pointed out that I had someone following me around ESD, I was wearing the VA outfit with the angled skirt, after he pointed it out to me i switched to my full pantsuit S31 uniform and the guy went away. I either don't stick around long enough for anyone to notice or it's just becoming more common to see female toons running around and it would embarass the heck out of some teen boy to hit on a character and have the reply come back "i'm a dude, dude".
This is not to make light of the situation our sisters face in a world where some think it's odd that females would play games, but it does happen. I can't tell you how many people i have on /ignore for CoH. Maybe I'm just lucky that the fleet i'm in is (mainly) made up of mature (wait what's that?
Unfortunately this will never go away. The only advice I can give is to remove yourself from a fleet that is sexist or immature and find one that likes diversity in it's members.
We know that we cannot expect all RL cultures to adopt a Star Trek like standard of equality, but from what I've seen on this very forum, everyone is generally posting constructive and mature feedback for any topic discussed.
Infact, when I posted my own problems with discrimination, there were a number of posters who commented they were surprised that such a thing even exists in STO (albeit off the forum).
My other word of caution here is there is a sort of consensus regarding those I've discussed gender-based harrassment about: -
Did you know if discriminating against women causes problems, it's an even bigger problem if there is an ultra-feminist opinion?
Meaning to say, if I'm defending someone on a miscommunication issue I'm not allowed to speak for -all- women in general. Guess who would be on the losing end if I used my (self given) authority to do that? Other women, of course, defeating the point of speaking up in the first place
So, for this topic, there is some sort of unwritten Prime Directive to adhere to today, as well. It's a sensitive subject and while it isn't to be taken lightly, the presence of this thread does not imply that we are all out to accuse one another of wrongdoing or assume that 'all girls/boys are bad and should avoid each other in Fleets'.
That's not the case. What we need is moderation, and mutual respect. Treating STO fleets as a casual organisation with a preference for military efficiency is from what I tried, the most effective solution.
I've just concluded a directors' meeting in RL and I proposed similar things to what I've written above. People liked that they had an option of communicating without infringing personal space for greater efficiency, where before I stepped in, it was apparently commonplace for people to get -too- close to one another and cause mutual discomfort.
Granted, my society and yours may be far different, but in Star Trek, there were many instances of using innovative solutions to overcome adversity as well.
http://www.doctornerdlove.com/2011/11/nerds-and-male-privilege/
http://www.doctornerdlove.com/2012/01/nerds-and-male-privilege-part-2/
http://www.doctornerdlove.com/2012/02/nerds-male-privilege-3-cross-assault-sexual-harrassment/
Basically, sexism exist in the gaming culture, but a lot of us don't really notice it. Typically, the "male" lot of us.
A simple example listed in the first article already is how characters are depicted in comics, for example.
Males typically have powerful and strong builds. They look like someone the typical fatbeard like me (well, I don't have a beard, but you know what I mean) might aspire to.
Females are depicted with large TRIBBLE, small waists and overall look pretty much like dream women a typical fatbeard like me might fantasize about.
But - the males do not actually look like something most women would fantasize about.
And vice versa - the comic females do not look like someone most women would aspire to be. A woman may want to be attractive, but she doesn't want to be boiled down to just a sex object.
And that's the sexism right there.
An interesting example comes from Arkham City. You can also play Catwoman in some scenes, not just Batman. Gangsters talk about Batman all the time, implying how much they are frightened and hope to never encounter them. For Catwoman, they rather express TRIBBLE fantasies.
Hardened criminals in prison use TRIBBLE as a tool for domination. So why only express fear of Batman but TRIBBLE fantasies for Catwoman. It's not as if Catwoman wouldn't cosntantly beat people up and destroy them. And even if we pretend that there is a story reason for it - fact is, that a male player would be bothered just as much by TRIBBLE threats as a female player, but as a male player, you only get to hear how awesome your protagonist is and how much his enemies fear him.
If we go beyond comics (which isn't exactly my geekism of choice). Startrek was sexist, even when it also tried to portray a more egalitarim and advanced society and sometimes made it even a topic of a show.
In TOS, the women wore short skirts and generally revealing clothing (seriously, check out TOS, there are some really nice hotties in there). At the same time,of course it also had some elements against sexism (like the episode about the woman that couldn't become Starfleet Captain because she was a woman), but on some level, they either missed their own, inherent sexism, or they had to just accep that this was necessary to even be shown on the small screen.
Deanna Troi was the "fanservice" girl of TNG. She intentionally was wearing dresses instead of regular uniforms. Then we had Seven of Nine... And no, Riker certainly is not fanservice for women. He's a confident, strong man that can charm woman, that's something that a male has an easy time identifying.
Of course, there also always counter-examples. It's not like it's all bad. It's important to evalulate these counter-examples and make them more prevalent, and minimize or remove the others.
Maybe it's even actually okay if we keep those oversexualized females around. If we also ensure we have some oversexualized males that appeal to women. As long as we also have enough heroic males and females.
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So, that's the side of - how sexism exists in the "geek" media.
On the other hand, we just have the regular geek culture. Where a geek woman is still often seen as a rarity that needs special treatment - and is, of course, every geek's secret dream girl. Now, maybe some women crave that type of attention, but it also tends to a lot of unwanted behavior and it would be probably more enjoyable for her if no one noticed her sex. And there are extremes like the 3rd article mentioned, where some geek subcultures basically start bullying women with sexual comments and think that's okay because taking that away would destroy that subculture. (To that, I can only say: If that destroys your subculture, good riddance. There wasn't apparantly anything worthy to it.)
Yeah, thats why i said i was generalising and 'some' members
Unfortunately i can't comment more intellectually on the subject other than from individual experience, so I will let gentlemen like @MustrumRidcully have the floor.
I'm just a lowly secretary
Although it does get pretty sad if the said Leadership is sorta biased just simply because the harassing party happens to be good friends of theirs, which have happened. Then the leaders is pretty much stuck between two hard places. on one hand, they don't want to tolerate harassment of female players but at the same time they also don't want to **** off the guys who they became such good friends with. I've seen it happen before.
Guys tend to have this group mentality, and so they will tend to side with other guys, even if they don't always agree 100% with what is happening.
They tend to think: "Well, most of the time they seem to be decent guys to me. I just can't imagine them being actual creeps who sees women as nothing but objects. After all, I've never seen that side of them. I just kind of want to think that maybe those women are blowing it out of portion. plus, I don't want to lose those guys as friends... so I'll side with them."
Because after all, those harassers are not a**holes 24/7, and they tend to have two sides to them... the side that they show to other male players.. .and the super-sexist side they show to females.
doesn't excuse the complicity they show regarding this topic, but it does explain a lot of why many guys tend to remain silent while their fellow gamers continuously harass the females.
people sit behind their computer screens and become keyboard warriors, they can do what they like when they like and never meet the real person on the other end. that means harassing women in game disgusting filthy messages filled with sexual innuendo.
the problem is not that nerds struggle to see women or girls as more then sex objects and such because there are women who are really good at beating their male compatriats. i just think your smacking the wrong bush when you should realize that there tends to be a minority of rotten people who like to use any excuse to get an advantage, including harassment and being behind a keyboard and screen as a coward, there are no consequences to this act.
Star Trek fans in the 1960s are not the same nerd culture as WoW players in 2012. Nerd culture isn't really that kind of consistent demographic.
Women in Refrigerators is a great place to start to really get an idea of misogyny in pop culture.
It's pretty sad the state that sexism is in today. I feel like our overall culture's regressed a lot.
*hands hort_wort a sandwich in the spirit of equality*
I am not that pessimistic. I think we're just so much more concious to sexism that we notice all the places where it's still around. It's a shame it's still there and seeing how we all (including myself) may be contributing to it even more so.
We geeks and nerds like to think of ourselves as something better, but that's probably something every self-selected group says about itself, and it's wrong in all cases.
I see what you're saying. I guess I'm just reacting to this topic in light of recent news events (ala the Rush Limbaugh thing) and just thinking about how overall that's really depressing you know? But I really don't want this thread to veer into that aspect of the topic.
As Star Trek moved along with TNG and DS9, it starting a move towards a more military look. Some have pointed out that Troi wore lowcut uniforms but she varied her's up now and then and towards the end of the series she always (mostly) wore the standard uni.
The thing I liked about Star Trek is that it doesn't make you feel that the women were being 'leered' at. They had jobs to do and they did them well. Although Kirk did seem to be a 'womanizer', he never felt that they were beneath him or else why would he have a female 4th in command?
Change your uniform to the unzipped variant. Compare the guy costume to the girl costume. How come the guy isn't showing bare skin around his neck? What's that turtleneck thing he's wearing?
You know what, maybe it's just one thing. I need a drink. Lets go down to Drozana and have a Nerve Tonic. Nice... isn't it? Makes you want to dance. What's this? Your guy character is only doing a standard off the Emote stock dance while your Orion Slave Girl is doing the bum swirl? Why can't your guy do a bum swirl? Oh yeah... it'd look ridiculous on a guy... maybe a Chippendale dance? No?
So you can't get your sexy groove on like the ladies. That's ok. Lets hit the beach. I see that Orion Slave Girls can wear bikini's. Surely we guys have ways to show off some skin.... we don't? And only the Orion males can show off their six pack/gorilla chest/beer gut/etc?
Hmph... this game's sexist alright. *L*
So yeah, it's sexist. STO is sexist in its own way. It's made to appeal to male gamers, whom are frankly quite sexist. I totally agree that this demographic, and geeks in general, are a real sexist bunch that make even the most hairy chested jock stereotype look very enlightened.
Sexist behavior among geeks in general should be made aware and perhaps curbed. Not saying you're not allowed to enjoy a bum swirl or an Orion in a metal bikini. We like these things! Physical beauty is a good thing and should be appreciated. Just... don't make women feel uncomfortable by being a creep about it.
And know where to draw the line. An occasional flirt is fun. Going overboard is creepy as hell. Letting it lead to more destructive tendencies are a warning sign that must be dealt with.
Personally, I don't worry too much about guys staring at sexy women. I even say they should be complimented, providing it's not tasteless and that you don't expect anything out of them (they're not our chattal after all).
I think sexism in gamer culture gets really sick and really destructive when you subject your female characters through the most sick, violent and unmentionable acts... just to get some edginess, or something for the backstory, to get a reaction out of the audience, or just to give the female character an excuse to act nuts/angry/violent themselves, etc. That's the sexism that gets me disgusted. Staring at an Orion in a bikini... so what? Stuffing a woman in a fridge is the ultimate form of sexism. It's truly shocking.
Luckily, I pondered this as a writer whenever I wanted to add tragedy to a character's life, and I came up with a solution.
'Would I do this to my main male character'?
For the rest of you... ponder this before you decide to have your edgy female character go through unspeakable acts of domination and violence.
"Would you have Superman go through it?"
Of course not. He's Superman. Nobody would beat him within an inch of his life, have unspeakable acts done to him, and then stuff his body in a fridge. That would be wrong.
So I say to you this... if it's wrong for Superman... what makes it right to do it to a female character of yours?
The same can apply to this game. The girls get bikinis. Why can't the guys have speedos? Why does the girl have the option to leave her turtleneck at home and the guy doesn't? Why can't he have a sexy dance? So in MMO's in general, I'd still stick to that rule, and encourage any game programmer to follow it. 'Would I do the same to a guy?'. If you don't the guts to make it truly equal, then don't do it.
So either don't be afraid to subject your male characters through the same nonsense... or don't do it at all. When you make characters, you can't afford to have sacred cows. In RPing with many players on the net, I see this so often that I roll my eyes and just wonder why we geeks are so ahead of the curve on everything else BUT gender relations.
I would be inclined to disagree. We may not think much of it in the 2010's, but in the 1960's it did make several strides forward in that regard. While shooting itself in the foot repeatedly, however.
Reminds me of a quote from a player in the North American women's gridiron football league, which puts their players in rather revealing and suggestive uniforms: "I don't care what they put us in, I'm just grateful for the opportunity to play." It's a step, that's better than nothing, and sort of in the right direction.
True. They have to deal with the attitudes of their time, and try not to be too shocking, or else their message would instantly get dismissed.
It's a problem as old as Shakespeare when he wrote his characters Shylock and Othello.
Cheers,
Brandon =/\=