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The Hilbert Guide

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
edited February 2013 in PvP Gameplay
You find all these endless build threads too complicated? You are overwhelmed by contradictory advice from other players? You don't want to have to consider tons of different aspects? You simply want a build that works?

Here is the solution: The Hilbert Guide - A cookie cutter approach to PVP

One escort build, one cruiser build. What ship to fly, what gear to get, which BO abilities to use, how to spec your captain and how to setup your keybinds. No "you could do A, but not unless you also want B - otherwise it would be better to go with a mix of C and D". Just a simple "build this and fly it".

(A science ship build might come at a later point.)
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    sticky vote ;)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    good job and well layed out. should get this posted in the general section too.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    whats the "withbackup" part of the command do?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    It's a variant of the usual trayexecbytray command that takes two slots as arguments. It's not really superior to the normal version, but since it sends less commands to the server, I have found that there is a slightly better chance to trigger all the abilities in this massive spacebar keybind in the correct order.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    mancom wrote:
    It's a variant of the usual trayexecbytray command that takes two slots as arguments. It's not really superior to the normal version, but since it sends less commands to the server, I have found that there is a slightly better chance to trigger all the abilities in this massive spacebar keybind in the correct order.

    this is the kind of mumbo jumbo that keeps from understanding a lot.

    wtf does any of this mean?

    damn u haxors!

    1 button, 1 power....drunk.

    the only way i fly.

    i hit the spacebar to target people. maybe thats my problem.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    i hit the spacebar to target people. maybe thats my problem.
    No, you're cool.


    Spacebar brings victory.
    And victory is life.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    Great guide.

    I would be interested in seeing an ENG build in a cruiser. The skill planner is based on a TAC captain (as stated in the guide).
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    SirJet wrote: »
    Great guide.

    I would be interested in seeing an ENG build in a cruiser. The skill planner is based on a TAC captain (as stated in the guide).

    Actually, the Eng build would look the same. All you need to do is spend points in engineering ground instead of tactical ground. Be sure you spend the same amount of points as the guide in ground skills.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    SirJet wrote: »
    I would be interested in seeing an ENG build in a cruiser. The skill planner is based on a TAC captain (as stated in the guide).
    thumappp wrote:
    Actually, the Eng build would look the same. All you need to do is spend points in engineering ground instead of tactical ground. Be sure you spend the same amount of points as the guide in ground skills.

    Thamupp is exactly right. Only the ground skills change, everything else remains the same.


    Obviously there is more than one way to build a cruiser and especially as an engineer you may want to use a second ET instead of the EPtW - but then you should probably drop one of the other teams (TT/ST) or possibly both because of cooldown issues and then we are exactly in the "if you want more A, you have to consider B and C and pay attention to D" situation that this guide is supposed to avoid.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    What’s with all the greedy armour.

    It looks like your attempting to create an army of zombies with resists and key binds.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    You know, cookie cutter builds have this stigma but what better way to learn the ropes than with a tried and true set up? Learn the basics, tweak it a bit, and create your own style. I like it.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    mancom wrote:
    Thamupp is exactly right. Only the ground skills change, everything else remains the same.


    Obviously there is more than one way to build a cruiser and especially as an engineer you may want to use a second ET instead of the EPtW - but then you should probably drop one of the other teams (TT/ST) or possibly both because of cooldown issues and then we are exactly in the "if you want more A, you have to consider B and C and pay attention to D" situation that this guide is supposed to avoid.


    I know what your saying, the captain space skill points will remain the same. I probably didn't ask the question correctly...

    I was thinking about what Bridge Officer skills would you chose to make the Eng. Cruiser as the stations would be different, ie:

    Ensign Engineering Station
    Lt. Commander Engineering Station
    Commander Engineering Station
    Lieutenant Science Station
    Lieutenant Tactical Station


    Would the difference in Eng Boffs instead of Tac Boffs change the way you spend your points for your captain in space or how you would equip your ship?

    I'm looking for a good PvP set up for an ENG in a cruiser and you clearly know what you are doing, i'd be grateful for your advice.

    Thank you.

    Edit: If you will willing to save a build on the sto skill planner that would be awesome!! :D
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    I think I understand now what you mean. You want a build for the Galaxy (Exploration Cruiser) Refit.

    I'd recommend against flying that ship, because its turn rate makes it difficult to fly in PVP unless you remove the saucer - and once your ship explodes, you are stuck with the saucer for the next five minutes.

    I guess you could turn it into a full healer by changing the EPtW2 to a EPtW1, add a second ET2 and use HE1/TSS2 (so no ST1) as science to compensate for the team cooldowns. But I recommend against it. Even as an engineering captain you are probably better off in a star cruiser or an assault cruiser.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    mancom wrote:
    I think I understand now what you mean. You want a build for the Galaxy (Exploration Cruiser) Refit.

    I'd recommend against flying that ship, because its turn rate makes it difficult to fly in PVP unless you remove the saucer - and once your ship explodes, you are stuck with the saucer for the next five minutes.

    I guess you could turn it into a full healer by changing the EPtW2 to a EPtW1, add a second ET2 and use HE1/TSS2 (so no ST1) as science to compensate for the team cooldowns. But I recommend against it. Even as an engineering captain you are probably better off in a star cruiser or an assault cruiser.

    Actualy... I'm KDF :)

    Currently flying a Negh'Var, but willing to change to a more suitable cruiser, even c-store ships.

    My fed flys an Assualt Cruiser, i wouldn't touch the Galaxy either.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    Go Vorcha-Refit. Turn rate, inertia for powerslides and cannons. :) That and the extra ensign tactical ability. :)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    now i want cookies :(
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    On the fleet escort build you have 2 tt's and 1 st1 listed. 3 team abilities? Is that a mistake?

    I am also forced to disagree with the apo3 instead of crf3. use 2 apo1's but you are for sure on the right track for sv1 over rf1. Way more damage and procs for the right pilots.

    Also the 2 neut consoles will stack with diminishing returns. i usually add the diburn console if I run two hull resist to counter all the phaser weapons out there.

    I am sorry to say in that escort build Ur doin it wrong. Just my opinion but I think I know quite a bit about escorts. I would also replace that 3rd st team ability with he1 and change that aux2sif to a aux2 damp for constant speed and turn boost with the 2 apo's
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    Please read the "The purpose of this guide" section of the guide. The point is to give you a simple PuG build that works.

    For new people this is a great build.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    thumappp wrote:
    Please read the "The purpose of this guide" section of the guide. The point is to give you a simple PuG build that works.

    For new people this is a great build.

    3 team abilities? Yes we wanna teach them but not to lose a power just to have an optional snb counter. Very easy to outfly an snb if they learn right. If anyone wants help building an escort talk to me. I will even show u how to fly it. But cruisers yes the op is the man to ask not me on that ship.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    lazerx24 wrote:
    3 team abilities? Yes we wanna teach them but not to lose a power just to have an optional snb counter. Very easy to outfly an snb if they learn right. If anyone wants help building an escort talk to me. I will even show u how to fly it. But cruisers yes the op is the man to ask not me on that ship.

    What is with the secret rule too only use 1 team ability? I guess TSI backup support ships are doing it wrong.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    thumappp wrote:
    What is with the secret rule too only use 1 team ability? I guess TSI backup support ships are doing it wrong.

    I never said use only 1 team ability? He has 2 tt1's and a st1 which is 3 team powers. If he had something else to slot in that ensign tact the st would make more sense but no torps negates that and pretty much pigeonholes you into 2 tt's thus a third team power is counterproductive.

    Not saying you guys in Tsi are doing it wrong clearly you aren't but this fleet escort build is filled with major flaws is all I am saying and I think I know just as much as any top escort pilot in the game about these things.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    lazerx24 wrote:
    3 team abilities? Yes we wanna teach them but not to lose a power just to have an optional snb counter. Very easy to outfly an snb if they learn right. If anyone wants help building an escort talk to me. I will even show u how to fly it. But cruisers yes the op is the man to ask not me on that ship.

    I believe the idea behind 3 team abilities is this: Sometimes it's okay to run into global and shared cooldowns. You don't always have to cylce a power with optimum cooldown utilization. Sometimes it is more important to have a utility power available at all.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    I believe the idea behind 3 team abilities is this: Sometimes it's okay to run into global and shared cooldowns. You don't always have to cylce a power with optimum cooldown utilization. Sometimes it is more important to have a utility power available at all.
    Exactly. Sometimes it's good to be able to chain TT. But ST is such an important skill for clearing SNB/SS/AMS and can help as a shield refill that it should not be missing in any build.


    CRF2+APO3 vs CRF3+APO1 is easily explained:
    1) It offers better burst damage, since CRF2+APO3 > CRF3+APO1.
    2) APO3 is easily obtainable for a non-tac captain without having to find another captain to train it.

    A diburnium hull plating is only useful against pha+dis, and would require switching to a different armor if one encounters other energy type and is thus too much of a "if ... then ... else ..." for this guide.

    And AtID? I tried it, but did not find it useful in a double omega build. Personally I use Extend Shields, but I think AtSIF is easier for a new player.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    Well Hilbert, last I checked (pre S5) crf3+apo1 had greater damage than crf2+apo3, but that may have changed slightly with the new skill tree. However, you will be able to use crf3 twice as often as apo3. Also, IMO the advanced escort is a better ship to fly than the fleet escort as you can run st1 and he1. the extra eng ensign just isn't nearly as good.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    Well Hilbert, last I checked (pre S5) crf3+apo1 had greater damage than crf2+apo3, but that may have changed slightly with the new skill tree.
    Just to make sure I checked it again this morning. And at least with my blue Mk X DHCs APO3+CRF2 has higher dps.
    However, you will be able to use crf3 twice as often as apo3.
    This is certainly true, but the problem of obtaining CRF3 as a non-tac captain remains.
    Also, IMO the advanced escort is a better ship to fly than the fleet escort as you can run st1 and he1. the extra eng ensign just isn't nearly as good.
    I guess it depends on whether you need HE to clear warp plasma etc. And I think the third eng console makes it easy to slot a RCS to get better turn rate - and better turning makes playing an escort easier.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    mancom wrote:
    This is certainly true, but the problem of obtaining CRF3 as a non-tac captain remains.
    Well, anyone reading your guide probably knows about the OPVP channel. All they have to do is ask for training and I'm sure someone will help them out. Shouldn't be a problem getting it trained just by asking in Earth/Qonos zone chat either. Or since its your guide, just state in it that anyone needing CRF3 just contact @mancom in game for training. :D
    mancom wrote:
    I guess it depends on whether you need HE to clear warp plasma etc.

    Not only a HE, but even a tractor beam for easier kills or a second TSS for more shield healing/tanking.
    mancom wrote:
    And I think the third eng console makes it easy to slot a RCS to get better turn rate - and better turning makes playing an escort easier.

    If you need to slot an RCS on a AE just do so. Losing 1 armor console will what, give you one second less of life without your shields? And of course there's the possibility of slotting the MVAM console for uber turn rate buff. Oh and with that tractor beam you don't need a super turn rate if your target is held down. :p

    Anyways, I'm just saying the advanced escort is simply more versatile, certainly when it comes to boff powers. And since the shield cap console switched to sci console, the AE's console layout is not so bad anymore compared to the fleet escort. Especially if you have the borg console, mvam console, and field generator in the three slots. A shield emitter console is not so bad either if you don't have the mvam console.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    Rock, I use to use tb in my build. I found with the new skill tree most are skilled in Sif. Only tb2 really works for the snare, tb1 just doesn't hold that well.

    Tb also is losing luster vs escorts running two copies of apo1

    I don't know about having three teams, but a tac being hit with snb hurts. Maybe its not so far fetched idea.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    The guide is very nicely done. Now we need to figure out how to get complete novices to use it as a starting point instead of some terrible build that worked for 49 levels in PvE.

    I think we need a general sticky entitled 'Start Here' that links to build advice.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    my escort currently has 3 tac team's and one science team :eek:
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    my escort currently has 3 tac team's and one science team :eek:
    Are you using evil system cooldown hax to get around the cooldown penalty from snb?
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