Apparently, it's acceptable for Starfleet to forge evidence and to murder a foreign senator in a terrorist act to drag another faction into a war but somehow they are the "good guys"? All it took is a little drama scene with Garak and repeating "I CAN live with it!" a couple of times, and all is jolly good. Hell, why even have a captain's log when you can just delete it.
You say Garak did it? What did Sisko think was going to happen if Vreenak believed the forgery and lived? Romulan soldiers would now have to die in a war based on a lie. Now you have a mass murder, anyway.
Does Starfleet send its soldiers to die for the Romulans when they are at war with someone, if that someone is the aggressor? Oh wait, you have to be a member of the United Federation of Planets in order for Starfleet to act. How inconvenient it must have been that they didn't want to join the Romulan Star Empire for them to intervene.
The episode keeps showing the casualty list in the wardroom in order to invoke anger in a viewer. The names are blurry but in this and another episode "The Siege of AR-558" you can just barely make out two ship names that keep repeating. They are the U.S.S. Wyoming and U.S.S. Tennessee. Would the non-American casualties be more acceptable to Sisko? Apparently, they would, since he COULD live with it.
The most obvious comparison comes to mind is when Hitler burned Reichstag and blamed it on communists in an attempt to start a war.
Clearly, Star Trek is about peace, exploration, protecting the weak, and, let me guess... democracy!
thats kind of the point of the episode. he lied, cheated and murdered but for the sake of billions he can live with it.
he drew the romulans into a war and that was not morally right but he probably saved the klingons the feds and also the romulans in the process. if the feds and klingons had fallen then the romulans would have been surrounded by the dominion. im not sure the founders would have forgiven them for trying to bomb their homeworld back in season 3.
the dominion conquered cardassia, albeit through a slightly different tactic but they ultimately paid the price with 800 million killed at the end of the war. the romulans would have faired no better.
More importantly, what Deep Space Nine and the Dominion War arch were about was the weakness of the human spirit. Sisko for all intents and purposes acted alone, none of the other Starfleet Officers were let it on his plot to draw the Romulans into the war.
You mention Starfleet getting involved in Romulan wars or tactical engagements as an ally. The issue with this is that in this case, the Dominion promised to be a very real threat to not just the Federation, or the Klingon Empire... but also to the Romulans, and assorted other Alpha and Beta Quadrant powers.
Consider this, if you will from a Romulan perspective:
First they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left to speak out for me.
Were Sisko's actions illegal and flying in the face of Federation law, virtue and honor? Absolutely.
I feel Garak said it best however
"That's why you came to me, isn't it captain? Because you knew I could do those things that you weren't capable of doing. Well, it worked. And you'll get what you wanted: a war between the Romulans and the Dominion. And if your conscience is bothering you, you should soothe it with the knowledge that you may have just saved the entire Alpha Quadrant, and all it cost was the life of one Romulan senator, one criminal... and the self-respect of one Starfleet officer. I don't know about you, but I'd call that a bargain."
This is one of my favorite episodes from Deep Space Nine... because at the end of the day the Federation isn't as far removed from us as a culture as we thought- and it opened up an entirely new dimension to the character of Ben Sisko.
thats kind of the point of the episode. he lied, cheated and murdered but for the sake of billions he can live with it.
I don't think he can. The more he said, "I can live with it... I CAN," the less he sounded like he believed it, shifting in his seat, even his words changed from "I can live with it" to "I can learn to live with it" and the fourth, last time, it was a question, not a statement. That's why he deleted the log. He couldn't justify it to himself, let alone to Starfleet, who'd given the entire debacle their blessing, he rejected his own justifications.
I don't think he can. The more he said, "I can live with it... I CAN," the less he sounded like he believed it. That's why he deleted the log. He couldn't justify it to himself, let alone to Starfleet, who'd given the entire debacle their blessing, he rejected his own justifications.
i think he deleted it because thats not the kind of incriminating evidence you leave around.
perhaps he was trying to justify it to himself or not, but ultimately as we never heard about this issue ever again, i guess he did live with it.
Wars over falsified information happen all the time. Politics in a time of war are full of these kinds of gambles. I dont doubt for a second that had the war ended in a stalemate or the terms of peace were to give up DS9 the Alliance would be fighting some pretty serious war crimes allegations within itself, Siskos gamble included. But victory often leads people to forget these things, especially if by the end you agree you picked the right side.
To be clear, Sisko isnt saying he can live with it where it is the death of Romulans, hes saying the same thing Spock said to Kirk, he believes the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few in this case. Lets be frank, you really believe the Romulans could have held their own against the Dominion? What if the Dominion now controlled the entire Klingon and Federation Empire? You are talking about deciding between the deaths of thousands of Romulan soldiers vs. billions of Romulan civilians. Which would you choose?
i think he deleted it because thats not the kind of incriminating evidence you leave around.
perhaps he was trying to justify it to himself or not, but ultimately as we never heard about this issue ever again, i guess he did live with it.
Yeah, it was a bitter pill to swallow for Sisko. He was ashamed of what he did, but let's face it... that one act of deception likely saved the the war effort. He was finally vindicated by war's end. So yes, while he was struggling to cope with his own acts... by the end of the series he had buried it, and been vindicated in general.
and lets not pretend the romulans, the cardassians or the dominion would have not done exactly the same thing. the only difference is they would have not agonised over it.
Apparently, it's acceptable for Starfleet to forge evidence and to murder a foreign senator in a terrorist act to drag another faction into a war but somehow they are the "good guys"? All it took is a little drama scene with Garak and repeating "I CAN live with it!" a couple of times, and all is jolly good. Hell, why even have a captain's log when you can just delete it.
You say Garak did it? What did Sisko think was going to happen if Vreenak believed the forgery and lived? Romulan soldiers would now have to die in a war based on a lie. Now you have a mass murder, anyway.
Does Starfleet send its soldiers to die for the Romulans when they are at war with someone, if that someone is the aggressor? Oh wait, you have to be a member of the United Federation of Planets in order for Starfleet to act. How inconvenient it must have been that they didn't want to join the Romulan Star Empire for them to intervene.
The episode keeps showing the casualty list in the wardroom in order to invoke anger in a viewer. The names are blurry but in this and another episode "The Siege of AR-558" you can just barely make out two ship names that keep repeating. They are the U.S.S. Wyoming and U.S.S. Tennessee. Would the non-American casualties be more acceptable to Sisko? Apparently, they would, since he COULD live with it.
The most obvious comparison comes to mind is when Hitler burned Reichstag and blamed it on communists in an attempt to start a war.
Clearly, Star Trek is about peace, exploration, protecting the weak, and, let me guess... democracy!
Double standards.
As has been mentioned, the point of the episode is that what Sisko did was "Wrong" but he did it to save billions. As Spock said "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few".
As for "Non-American" casualties...? I have no idea what you mean. In Star Trek there were no "Americans", it was just a place on a map.
(Also, the Federation approved his plan. Therefore, the log is not incriminating evidence. Also, it was his personal log, not the Captain's log)
1. Only Sisko, and Garek knew about it. Star Fleet had nothing to do with it. this was all under the table. Sisko made a choice to do evil to stop a bigger evil. Star Fleet didn't do it, and Sisko felt guilty about it too. until he realized that the ends out weighted the means. What he did was wrong and not moral. he knew that. but in the end it was his choice to do evil to stop evil, and all it cost was one criminal, one corrupt senator, and the self respect of Ben Sisko himself. I agree with Garek. It was a hell of a bargain, and honestly if I was faced with the same choice. I am not sure I would do anything different.
Also this whole thing about being two ships on the list. Your thinking to much into it. It is called laziness... it was a back ground prop.. I mean sure they should have had more names. but they didn't because they are saving time. your thinking to much into it.
One other thing. it is silly to think that just because it is an American state named, means it is an American crew. thats just silly. If anything it is a multi species crew from all around the universe. It's not just humans or Americans. honestly that is just looking for a reason to complain. Your thinking to much into it.
(Also, the Federation approved his plan. Therefore, the log is not incriminating evidence. Also, it was his personal log, not the Captain's log)
It could be incriminating. I refer to how Kirk's personal log was used against him in his trial in ST VI. Sisko was right to cover up anything that could be traced back to him. What would have happened if his log fell into the hands of the Dominion during the war? The Romulans might have pulled out of the alliance, maybe even allied with the Dominion against the Federation..
Apparently, it's acceptable for Starfleet to forge evidence and to murder a foreign senator in a terrorist act to drag another faction into a war but somehow they are the "good guys"? All it took is a little drama scene with Garak and repeating "I CAN live with it!" a couple of times, and all is jolly good. Hell, why even have a captain's log when you can just delete it.
You say Garak did it? What did Sisko think was going to happen if Vreenak believed the forgery and lived? Romulan soldiers would now have to die in a war based on a lie. Now you have a mass murder, anyway.
Does Starfleet send its soldiers to die for the Romulans when they are at war with someone, if that someone is the aggressor? Oh wait, you have to be a member of the United Federation of Planets in order for Starfleet to act. How inconvenient it must have been that they didn't want to join the Romulan Star Empire for them to intervene.
The episode keeps showing the casualty list in the wardroom in order to invoke anger in a viewer. The names are blurry but in this and another episode "The Siege of AR-558" you can just barely make out two ship names that keep repeating. They are the U.S.S. Wyoming and U.S.S. Tennessee. Would the non-American casualties be more acceptable to Sisko? Apparently, they would, since he COULD live with it.
The most obvious comparison comes to mind is when Hitler burned Reichstag and blamed it on communists in an attempt to start a war.
Clearly, Star Trek is about peace, exploration, protecting the weak, and, let me guess... democracy!
Double standards.
That's what made DS9 great: it threw off the shackles of Gene Roddenberry's childish naivet
I almost took this thread seriously, then I got to the part about "non-America casualites". If you're so quick to make sensational accusations and assume all the casualties were American just because some ships are named after American States, I'm forced to consider the possibility that you put just as much thought into the first part of the post.
"That's why you came to me, isn't it captain? Because you knew I could do those things that you weren't capable of doing. Well, it worked. And you'll get what you wanted: a war between the Romulans and the Dominion. And if your conscience is bothering you, you should soothe it with the knowledge that you may have just saved the entire Alpha Quadrant, and all it cost was the life of one Romulan senator, one criminal... and the self-respect of one Starfleet officer. I don't know about you, but I'd call that a bargain."
Thanks Sprint01 for quoting Garak, those lines brought chills down my spine when I first saw that episode. Awesome episode.
That particular episode really brought into the light the flaw of the human nature, as well as during a state of war, the tough decisions one must make to end the war quickly, while saving million if not billions of lives.
During World War II, the U.S. Government had to make the tough decision to strike at the heart of emperialistic Japan to end the war quickly. It was very sad they had to use a weapon of mass destruction in order to save lives. The U.S. made this hard decision because they knew if they attacked the mainland head on, it would mean death on every doorstep, for every inch of soil, and the fact that the innocent would be caught in the wake.
That particular DS9 Episode truly calls into question one's morality in time of war. Very tough episode to swallow.
Does Starfleet send its soldiers to die for the Romulans when they are at war with someone, if that someone is the aggressor? Oh wait, you have to be a member of the United Federation of Planets in order for Starfleet to act. How inconvenient it must have been that they didn't want to join the Romulan Star Empire for them to intervene.
You're making assumptions. In truth, if the Romulans were to petition the Federation for assistance, I'm pretty sure that the (Non-state) U.S.S. Enterprise would be first in line along with the U.S.S. Gorkon, U.S.S. Cairo, U.S.S. Defiant and every other Federation vessel (regardless of the name) would come to their aide. Unfortunately; The Romulan Senate is very mistrusting of other races and have always opposed not only the Federation, but other races including the Klingon Empire.
Speaking of which - you forgot about how Captain Sulu offered to assist the Klingons when half the moon of Praxis blew to a billion of pieces - we're talking about Klingons (A tough customer to please)
The episode keeps showing the casualty list in the wardroom in order to invoke anger in a viewer. The names are blurry but in this and another episode "The Siege of AR-558" you can just barely make out two ship names that keep repeating. They are the U.S.S. Wyoming and U.S.S. Tennessee. Would the non-American casualties be more acceptable to Sisko? Apparently, they would, since he COULD live with it.
Again you are assuming too much. Sisko had many non-EARTHLYING friends that were killed during the Klingon war. A Klingon warrior even bragged about killing Sisko's Benzite friend. In late 2372, the Klingons boarded Laporin's starship during a bloody skirmish. The boarding party was merciless to Laporin's crew, as Laporin witnessed a Klingon behead his Tellarite helmsman. Moments later, the same Klingon tore off Laporin's breathing tubes, killing the captain. - "Apocalypse Rising"
The most obvious comparison comes to mind is when Hitler burned Reichstag and blamed it on communists in an attempt to start a war.
One's morals are always put to the test during times of war. Is it despicable? Yes, and while Hitler was the obvious aggressor, Sisko was not. In Sisko's moment of moral crisis he had to make the hard decision to bring a faction into the war that was apathetic to the Jem hedar's attempt to oppress the Alpha Quadrant. - the two examples are worlds apart.
It is sin to deceive, but far greater are the sins of those who stand idly by while those around them are destroyed. Those who do not act, are as equally guilty as those who oppress and destroy. If the U.S. had acted sooner, Hitler would have never gotten as far as he did.
One is motivated by pure evil with an attempt to undermine another government or supporters of a particular political stance, while the latter was a moral decision based on desepration and instinct to survive. This really opens up the question as to when does morals fade admist extreme conflict?
Clearly, Star Trek is about peace, exploration, protecting the weak, and, let me guess... democracy!
Double standards.
Perhaps, but who are you to judge? We all have some form of double standard, if it were not so, then we would be prefect in our ways. Is democracy that evil?
Compared to most of earth's political ideology, democracy seems to be the favored in regards to having some form of freedom, at least in appearance.
Without turning this thread into a political science course, many nations today are under different types of governments. Sure, many of these nations feel that the U.S. is evil - and at times they have some logical reasoning behind that notion, but they also at times seem to miss the entire mark.
Communism? is it evil or good? --> lets not turn this into a philosophical course on what is really good and evil.
I tend to think that I favor a government that oppresses their people less. The more oppression from the government, the less favorable the government. To my knowledge the Romulan Star Empire is a symbol of tyranny to the max. Heck at least the Klingon Empire hides it under the notion of Honor.
Another thing to note was that the Romulans were sitting on the side lines watching all of their rivals weaken each other, hoping they'd be left almost defenseless at the end of the war. As Sloan would later reference, after the Dominion War was over only the Romulan Star Empire and the Federation would be in a position to oppose each other.
When you consider how the Romulans view the Federation (in particular humans, as Orum mentioned that they're raised to hate us) then you begin to see that the Dominion would have been the least of the quadrant's problems by the very end. Still, with Romulus gone I guess we won't be worrying too much about the empire for a long time to come.
i went through my old DS9 VHS collection again last night just to watch this again...
...and then i watched it again...
...and again.
i had genuinely forgot just how driven the captain was during the war and how much he was willing to stretch his moral fibre in order to safeguard the Federation but i have to consider a few quite serious things that SHOULD have been shot down by Starfleet before it ever became a moral choice.
* Starfleet officers are by extension of there basic training are aloud to "bend" the truth but Sisko flat out lied on no more than four specific occasions in order to facilitate and perpetuate the bringing of another government into a war they had no real reason to involve themselves in at all.
* Sisko then chose to moralise his decision in a personal log, this would despite being deleted without purging the system leave a data trace that could be recovered and used as evidence of subterfuge that could have led not only to the Romulan government from withdrawing from the war but could have seen them joining the Dominion against the rest of the Alpha Quadrant.
* Sisko then chose to take his frustration out on Garrack, a civilian who Sisko brought in as a consultant based on the mans experience as a counter insurgent agent with a more than dubious past and a somewhat flexible moral compass who out of nothing more than simply being requested by someone he considered a friend or at least a comrade to put his considerable skills to the task of manipulating an entire species into entering a war. After following his request to the letter, foreseeing its failings and then understanding what the outcome of the forgery's discovery would mean chose to implement additional measures in order to confirm its success....
...then Sisko pucnhes the poor smuck out in his own damn shop.
That is an excellent Episode! Reading some of the posts in this thread gave me goose bumps remembering it . The episode has some of the best dialogue also IMO. I love this stage in DS9, where the Federation is desperate to change the tide of the war. It's interesting to watch the story unfold with Garak takign Sisko past a point of no return. Very cool.
While many conspiracy theories are just plain nonsense, no one with a brain functioning within normal parameters will doubt that all people who have power will, inevitably, be engaged in conspiracies from time to time.
If one agrees that the latter is fact, then one will be forced to ask: "Who does indeed have power?" And of course, corporation lead figures do have power, as have successful politicians. It is no secret at all that these two groups are closely related in most countries of the world. So it is plausible that those who might want to have a herd of sheep instead of adult free citizens (and who would doubt that there are poeple who do?) could conspire to do as Trismegistus claims.
However, I do not think that this was the idea behind said DS9 episode at all. I mean, the problems Sisko faced were not all that irreal, and yes, it makes sense to act as he did in such a situation. The interesting part, in my opinion, comes a few years or even a generation later, when it is widely accepted that one could do this, and then a new crisis comes and even more ambigious means could be required, and again, it is seen as okay, as it is not that much more bad than what is already accepted. Over a couple of such iterations, the Federation might become an evil empire by Sisko's standards.
Consider who the current Science Czar is for for the Barry Soetoro Administration. (John Holdren)
He wrote the Population Bomb which by the way turned out to be completely bogus since everything in it he predicted turned out to be false.
Nevertheless he advocates some pretty radical sterilization methods to include poisening the water supply.
The Malthusian Agenda has been arround for a very long time and is a staple of the ruling class today just as it was well over 100 years ago and they make the same old tired arguments and the sad fact is social engineering has people believing that overpopulation is a problem and it is not now and never has been.
The sick truth is that population control is a means of controlling the population.
Social Engineering in the Star Trek Franchise has been there since day one and exists in varrying levels in every episode. One of the more obvious is the intention to faslsely portray socialism as a panacea for an altruistic society. Not that these people have any intrention of allowing socialism, or democracy in any event. The current form of government being instituted globlly is actually a Scientific Dictatorship that some refer to as Technocracy.
Its in the vast majority of television programing as well as media and cinema. It is a very sophisticated operation and professionally done by experts in the field who are among the highest paid within the industry.
If you study the subject you can see just how obvious it is and marvel at how the masses are taken in by it without even being aware of it.
It is not always easy to see what the specific intent is as an outside obsever, but be assured there is definately a nefarious agenda at play.
So, what was "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield" about?
It can't have been about pointing out the stupidity and destructiveness of racism, because that would hardly count as a sinister goal for a conspiracy to manipulate the sheeple?
Comments
he drew the romulans into a war and that was not morally right but he probably saved the klingons the feds and also the romulans in the process. if the feds and klingons had fallen then the romulans would have been surrounded by the dominion. im not sure the founders would have forgiven them for trying to bomb their homeworld back in season 3.
the dominion conquered cardassia, albeit through a slightly different tactic but they ultimately paid the price with 800 million killed at the end of the war. the romulans would have faired no better.
You mention Starfleet getting involved in Romulan wars or tactical engagements as an ally. The issue with this is that in this case, the Dominion promised to be a very real threat to not just the Federation, or the Klingon Empire... but also to the Romulans, and assorted other Alpha and Beta Quadrant powers.
Consider this, if you will from a Romulan perspective:
Were Sisko's actions illegal and flying in the face of Federation law, virtue and honor? Absolutely.
I feel Garak said it best however
This is one of my favorite episodes from Deep Space Nine... because at the end of the day the Federation isn't as far removed from us as a culture as we thought- and it opened up an entirely new dimension to the character of Ben Sisko.
I don't think he can. The more he said, "I can live with it... I CAN," the less he sounded like he believed it, shifting in his seat, even his words changed from "I can live with it" to "I can learn to live with it" and the fourth, last time, it was a question, not a statement. That's why he deleted the log. He couldn't justify it to himself, let alone to Starfleet, who'd given the entire debacle their blessing, he rejected his own justifications.
i think he deleted it because thats not the kind of incriminating evidence you leave around.
perhaps he was trying to justify it to himself or not, but ultimately as we never heard about this issue ever again, i guess he did live with it.
To be clear, Sisko isnt saying he can live with it where it is the death of Romulans, hes saying the same thing Spock said to Kirk, he believes the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few in this case. Lets be frank, you really believe the Romulans could have held their own against the Dominion? What if the Dominion now controlled the entire Klingon and Federation Empire? You are talking about deciding between the deaths of thousands of Romulan soldiers vs. billions of Romulan civilians. Which would you choose?
Yeah, it was a bitter pill to swallow for Sisko. He was ashamed of what he did, but let's face it... that one act of deception likely saved the the war effort. He was finally vindicated by war's end. So yes, while he was struggling to cope with his own acts... by the end of the series he had buried it, and been vindicated in general.
As has been mentioned, the point of the episode is that what Sisko did was "Wrong" but he did it to save billions. As Spock said "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few".
As for "Non-American" casualties...? I have no idea what you mean. In Star Trek there were no "Americans", it was just a place on a map.
(Also, the Federation approved his plan. Therefore, the log is not incriminating evidence. Also, it was his personal log, not the Captain's log)
1. Only Sisko, and Garek knew about it. Star Fleet had nothing to do with it. this was all under the table. Sisko made a choice to do evil to stop a bigger evil. Star Fleet didn't do it, and Sisko felt guilty about it too. until he realized that the ends out weighted the means. What he did was wrong and not moral. he knew that. but in the end it was his choice to do evil to stop evil, and all it cost was one criminal, one corrupt senator, and the self respect of Ben Sisko himself. I agree with Garek. It was a hell of a bargain, and honestly if I was faced with the same choice. I am not sure I would do anything different.
If I were you OP. I would check out two videos.
The First is a review of the episode
The second is a follow up on sisko's actions
They give you very interesting in site into it.
Also this whole thing about being two ships on the list. Your thinking to much into it. It is called laziness... it was a back ground prop.. I mean sure they should have had more names. but they didn't because they are saving time. your thinking to much into it.
One other thing. it is silly to think that just because it is an American state named, means it is an American crew. thats just silly. If anything it is a multi species crew from all around the universe. It's not just humans or Americans. honestly that is just looking for a reason to complain. Your thinking to much into it.
It could be incriminating. I refer to how Kirk's personal log was used against him in his trial in ST VI. Sisko was right to cover up anything that could be traced back to him. What would have happened if his log fell into the hands of the Dominion during the war? The Romulans might have pulled out of the alliance, maybe even allied with the Dominion against the Federation..
To justify actions which they condemn other soceities for.
That's what made DS9 great: it threw off the shackles of Gene Roddenberry's childish naivet
That being, not very much thought at all.
Thanks Sprint01 for quoting Garak, those lines brought chills down my spine when I first saw that episode. Awesome episode.
That particular episode really brought into the light the flaw of the human nature, as well as during a state of war, the tough decisions one must make to end the war quickly, while saving million if not billions of lives.
During World War II, the U.S. Government had to make the tough decision to strike at the heart of emperialistic Japan to end the war quickly. It was very sad they had to use a weapon of mass destruction in order to save lives. The U.S. made this hard decision because they knew if they attacked the mainland head on, it would mean death on every doorstep, for every inch of soil, and the fact that the innocent would be caught in the wake.
That particular DS9 Episode truly calls into question one's morality in time of war. Very tough episode to swallow.
You're making assumptions. In truth, if the Romulans were to petition the Federation for assistance, I'm pretty sure that the (Non-state) U.S.S. Enterprise would be first in line along with the U.S.S. Gorkon, U.S.S. Cairo, U.S.S. Defiant and every other Federation vessel (regardless of the name) would come to their aide. Unfortunately; The Romulan Senate is very mistrusting of other races and have always opposed not only the Federation, but other races including the Klingon Empire.
Speaking of which - you forgot about how Captain Sulu offered to assist the Klingons when half the moon of Praxis blew to a billion of pieces - we're talking about Klingons (A tough customer to please)
Again you are assuming too much. Sisko had many non-EARTHLYING friends that were killed during the Klingon war. A Klingon warrior even bragged about killing Sisko's Benzite friend. In late 2372, the Klingons boarded Laporin's starship during a bloody skirmish. The boarding party was merciless to Laporin's crew, as Laporin witnessed a Klingon behead his Tellarite helmsman. Moments later, the same Klingon tore off Laporin's breathing tubes, killing the captain.
- "Apocalypse Rising"
One's morals are always put to the test during times of war. Is it despicable? Yes, and while Hitler was the obvious aggressor, Sisko was not. In Sisko's moment of moral crisis he had to make the hard decision to bring a faction into the war that was apathetic to the Jem hedar's attempt to oppress the Alpha Quadrant. - the two examples are worlds apart.
It is sin to deceive, but far greater are the sins of those who stand idly by while those around them are destroyed. Those who do not act, are as equally guilty as those who oppress and destroy. If the U.S. had acted sooner, Hitler would have never gotten as far as he did.
One is motivated by pure evil with an attempt to undermine another government or supporters of a particular political stance, while the latter was a moral decision based on desepration and instinct to survive. This really opens up the question as to when does morals fade admist extreme conflict?
Perhaps, but who are you to judge? We all have some form of double standard, if it were not so, then we would be prefect in our ways. Is democracy that evil?
Compared to most of earth's political ideology, democracy seems to be the favored in regards to having some form of freedom, at least in appearance.
Without turning this thread into a political science course, many nations today are under different types of governments. Sure, many of these nations feel that the U.S. is evil - and at times they have some logical reasoning behind that notion, but they also at times seem to miss the entire mark.
Communism? is it evil or good? --> lets not turn this into a philosophical course on what is really good and evil.
I tend to think that I favor a government that oppresses their people less. The more oppression from the government, the less favorable the government. To my knowledge the Romulan Star Empire is a symbol of tyranny to the max. Heck at least the Klingon Empire hides it under the notion of Honor.
When you consider how the Romulans view the Federation (in particular humans, as Orum mentioned that they're raised to hate us) then you begin to see that the Dominion would have been the least of the quadrant's problems by the very end. Still, with Romulus gone I guess we won't be worrying too much about the empire for a long time to come.
...and then i watched it again...
...and again.
i had genuinely forgot just how driven the captain was during the war and how much he was willing to stretch his moral fibre in order to safeguard the Federation but i have to consider a few quite serious things that SHOULD have been shot down by Starfleet before it ever became a moral choice.
* Starfleet officers are by extension of there basic training are aloud to "bend" the truth but Sisko flat out lied on no more than four specific occasions in order to facilitate and perpetuate the bringing of another government into a war they had no real reason to involve themselves in at all.
* Sisko then chose to moralise his decision in a personal log, this would despite being deleted without purging the system leave a data trace that could be recovered and used as evidence of subterfuge that could have led not only to the Romulan government from withdrawing from the war but could have seen them joining the Dominion against the rest of the Alpha Quadrant.
* Sisko then chose to take his frustration out on Garrack, a civilian who Sisko brought in as a consultant based on the mans experience as a counter insurgent agent with a more than dubious past and a somewhat flexible moral compass who out of nothing more than simply being requested by someone he considered a friend or at least a comrade to put his considerable skills to the task of manipulating an entire species into entering a war. After following his request to the letter, foreseeing its failings and then understanding what the outcome of the forgery's discovery would mean chose to implement additional measures in order to confirm its success....
...then Sisko pucnhes the poor smuck out in his own damn shop.
gratitude eh? gotta love it.
http://saintsagainsttyranny.com/303180-good_tin_foil_hat.jpg
Thanks for the foil hat Grafico
Anyway, awesome episode.
Ignorance is Bliss and rest assured STO is part of the program as are all diversions from reality.
Reality is often viewed as a conspiracy theory to those who wrap themselves in the bliss of ignorance.
Such people feed off of each others dumbed down "Group Think" that has been fed to them.
If one agrees that the latter is fact, then one will be forced to ask: "Who does indeed have power?" And of course, corporation lead figures do have power, as have successful politicians. It is no secret at all that these two groups are closely related in most countries of the world. So it is plausible that those who might want to have a herd of sheep instead of adult free citizens (and who would doubt that there are poeple who do?) could conspire to do as Trismegistus claims.
However, I do not think that this was the idea behind said DS9 episode at all. I mean, the problems Sisko faced were not all that irreal, and yes, it makes sense to act as he did in such a situation. The interesting part, in my opinion, comes a few years or even a generation later, when it is widely accepted that one could do this, and then a new crisis comes and even more ambigious means could be required, and again, it is seen as okay, as it is not that much more bad than what is already accepted. Over a couple of such iterations, the Federation might become an evil empire by Sisko's standards.
That would make for a great new Star Trek show.
Just an example.
Over Population Nightmare from 1960s - Star Trek's Mark of Gideon
Kirk calls for contraception and Sterilization for an over populated planet. In the 1960s I remember being fear mongered like this that one day the whole planet would be filled with people.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdsbuJfMpr0&feature=player_embedded
Consider who the current Science Czar is for for the Barry Soetoro Administration. (John Holdren)
He wrote the Population Bomb which by the way turned out to be completely bogus since everything in it he predicted turned out to be false.
Nevertheless he advocates some pretty radical sterilization methods to include poisening the water supply.
The Malthusian Agenda has been arround for a very long time and is a staple of the ruling class today just as it was well over 100 years ago and they make the same old tired arguments and the sad fact is social engineering has people believing that overpopulation is a problem and it is not now and never has been.
The sick truth is that population control is a means of controlling the population.
Creepy Cartoon...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqi5F5MqqTQ
Social Engineering in the Star Trek Franchise has been there since day one and exists in varrying levels in every episode. One of the more obvious is the intention to faslsely portray socialism as a panacea for an altruistic society. Not that these people have any intrention of allowing socialism, or democracy in any event. The current form of government being instituted globlly is actually a Scientific Dictatorship that some refer to as Technocracy.
Its in the vast majority of television programing as well as media and cinema. It is a very sophisticated operation and professionally done by experts in the field who are among the highest paid within the industry.
If you study the subject you can see just how obvious it is and marvel at how the masses are taken in by it without even being aware of it.
It is not always easy to see what the specific intent is as an outside obsever, but be assured there is definately a nefarious agenda at play.
It can't have been about pointing out the stupidity and destructiveness of racism, because that would hardly count as a sinister goal for a conspiracy to manipulate the sheeple?