I got this accolade today and I have to say, it seems a little... tactless. What happened to the crew of the real Indianapolis was very awful and when the accolade popped up, it made me feel a bit uncomfortable.
It's just something I think Cryptic might want to examine. I had a bad feeling when I first saw the Indianapolis in-game, and then the mission transpires, and the whole thing just left me feeling icky. The accolade title is what really puts it over the top, though.
While I'm not one to downplay a tragedy, the event you're referring to took place in 1945, some 73 years ago. Not precisely a recent even liable to be a sore spot for a grieving family.
On top of that, Cryptic clearly isn't mocking or otherwise deriding the event in any way.
You're being a bit too sensitive about it, I think.
Making a mission obviously derived from a terrible incident, then giving an accolade that directly references what killed a great many people in that incident but really has nothing to do with the mission in the game, is tactless.
I have a feeling whoever wrote the mission and came up with the Accolade title only knows of the Indianapolis sinking from Quint's monologue in Jaws, but one of the things that makes that monologue so powerful is that it's all pretty much true.
All I'm saying is that here I am playing a Star Trek game, and suddenly I'm thinking about real people being bitten in half, or dying from exposure, or from delirium. Of approximately 1,200 crew members, only about 300 survived the ordeal, and out of the 900 casualties, the one-third that went down with the ship were the lucky ones.
It's a very powerful event to reference, and quite honestly the mission doesn't earn that powerful an association, which also contributes to making the fact that Cryptic uses it anyway feel... unsettling. I just think it would be better if Cryptic renamed the Accolade to something else.
I can see both sides of it, although the accolade is a bit flippant. I imagine it was meant to be percieved as a clever easter egg or something, but hundreds of people going down with a ship and more dying subsequent to that's perhaps not the bestway of going about it. They could've put an accolade there and called it any number of things that didn't involve the Indianapolis.
With regards to it being 73 years ago, so was the Holocaust. I doubt an "Arbeit Macht Frei" accolade for freeing the Deferi from the Breen would go down too well though (nor indeed should it). What's the official expiry date or tragedy threshold for a given event with regards to it's legitimacy for off colour references? I deffinitely don't know, and I think all in all, it's easier to avoid them if they're completely unneccessary. And this from somebody with one of the most off colour sense of humour you could encounter. (I'm admittedly playing devil's advocate here)
i remember a thread about a year ago where someone pointed the same accolade out and liked it, and saw it as a mark of respect and remembrance to those that died. its all about different viewpoints.
i have no real issue with it myself. its a historical event. lots of games have references to wars and death in some way or another. some that go back thousands of years. im sure their deaths were just as unpleasant and tragic.
i personally think it should stay. perhaps some see it as tactless, perhaps some dont. end of the day nothing has happened other than some dont personally like it. i dont see that as enough to change it.
In the same mission where you murder thousands of unborn Jem'Hadar babies? I can tell you the accolade didn't shock me nearly as much.
Yeah, they could grow up to be peace loving farmers and artists and shop keepers and award winning authors for all we know. It's not like they've been geneticly bred to crush all resistance in the Alpha Quadrant because the previous version that was bred to crush resistance in general wasn't quite good enough at it. The destruction and death that would have resulted from their surviving to hatch would be far greater, and visited upon many innocents, rather than geneticly bred killing machines, sentient or (which at the time) not.
i remember a thread about a year ago where someone pointed the same accolade out and liked it, and saw it as a mark of respect and remembrance to those that died. its all about different viewpoints.
i have no real issue with it myself. its a historical event. lots of games have references to wars and death in some way or another. some that go back thousands of years. im sure their deaths were just as unpleasant and tragic.
i personally think it should stay. perhaps some see it as tactless, perhaps some dont. end of the day nothing has happened other than some dont personally like it. i dont see that as enough to change it.
I think the OP is being a bit over-sensative too, and that Revo has the right of it.
You can find offense in it, sure, but always more important is the sentiment, the intent behind something. I don't htink this was meant as a joke or insult and stand with Revo's viewpoint on it.
You can place your own meaning on it but if that meaning doesn't match that of the authors, you're more or less looking to find offense where none was intended.
Yeah, they could grow up to be peace loving farmers and artists and shop keepers and award winning authors for all we know. It's not like they've been geneticly bred to crush all resistance in the Alpha Quadrant because the previous version that was bred to crush resistance in general wasn't quite good enough at it. The destruction and death that would have resulted from their surviving to hatch would be far greater, and visited upon many innocents, rather than geneticly bred killing machines, sentient or (which at the time) not.
So I guess we won't be seeing a Jem'Hadar bridge officer since that would be an impossibility, right? I should space all my Jem'Hadar duty officers too. Just in case.
There are ways to resemble and honor past events. Such an accolade isn't one of those ways.
Exactly.
And it wasn't an "easter egg"; the whole thing is very blatant and aggressively obvious. If they really want to keep the Indianapolis thing going for the accolade, then they should reference, say, the PBY Catalina that first spotted the survivors.
I got this accolade today and I have to say, it seems a little... tactless. What happened to the crew of the real Indianapolis was very awful and when the accolade popped up, it made me feel a bit uncomfortable.
It's just something I think Cryptic might want to examine. I had a bad feeling when I first saw the Indianapolis in-game, and then the mission transpires, and the whole thing just left me feeling icky. The accolade title is what really puts it over the top, though.
Oh, now your just looking for something to whine about. Really.
Do you think of the people of Chernobyl when radiation is used in-game or any other game for that matter...
Please....
Go visit 2Chan, then come back and tell us if STO still makes you feel icky and uncomfortable.
From a different perspective, I did not know about the story of the real USS Indianapolis until I read this thread. In that way, this accolade has helped more people learn of the fate of the real ship.
Besides, if you are going to nitpick this accolade, there are many, many, other accolades guilty of the same offense. What about "Death from Above" where you use orbital strikes in the final mission of the Romulan series? Do you similarly protest this accolade in deference to those who died at Hiroshima, and the countless other victims of aerial bombardment? And I am sure you also note the irony wherein the last successful mission of the Indianapolis was to deliver the critical enriched uranium to Tinian island, which was subsequently detonated over Hiroshima?
From a different perspective, I did not know about the story of the real USS Indianapolis until I read this thread. In that way, this accolade has helped more people learn of the fate of the real ship.
The accolade did nothing of the sort. If this thread hadn't been made, you'd still be clueless about it.
Besides, if you are going to nitpick this accolade, there are many, many, other accolades guilty of the same offense. What about "Death from Above" where you use orbital strikes in the final mission of the Romulan series? While not specifically targeted at any one event, it certainly references victims of aerial bombings that have taken place throughout history in a similar manner.
Absolutely not. Your example does not reference a very specific moment in history. If that mission had been written specifically to bring to mind, say, the fire-bombing of Dresden, as "The New Link" specifically and deliberately references and attempts to mimic the Indianapolis tragedy, you'd have an argument. But it doesn't. The two things are not at all alike.
I got this accolade today and I have to say, it seems a little... tactless. What happened to the crew of the real Indianapolis was very awful and when the accolade popped up, it made me feel a bit uncomfortable.
It's just something I think Cryptic might want to examine. I had a bad feeling when I first saw the Indianapolis in-game, and then the mission transpires, and the whole thing just left me feeling icky. The accolade title is what really puts it over the top, though.
So I can't mention the titanic every time the server crashes either?
Talk about over sensitivity. You must have passed out when you learned you can kill dozens of airport civilians in Call of Duty. And do you have any idea how many people play that video game?
Why, exactly, does one immediately assume that the accolade is based within U.S. military history? Shark in the Water is also a song. Can computer game accolades not be inspired purely by pop culture? Maybe a dev was a fan of V.V. Brown?
Yes it was a tragedy but you know what, the whole bloody war was and there was much, much worse than that particular incident. From a personal standpoint, I think it's a greater tragedy that the Indianapolis had to be on that voyage in the first place when you consider why it was there.
Is this a tasteless joke? I highly doubt it. You know what I think this is? It's Star Trek. Throughout the franchise there are many references to darker days in human history, is this done to poke fun at those times? No, it's to grab your attention, turn the spotlight on and say "This. This actually happened" because if we remember, then we can learn from it. Like I said it's a constant theme, some might say one of the main points of Star Trek.
Now, NeoNoir, please read this next bit carefully, and understand I am not flaming you. You are being ignorant, pig headed and judgemental. You have looked at this from a narrow perspective and found offense and thus far have ignored other perspectives presented and you have no more information pertaining to the creation of this accolade than anyone else, though I might say, others seemed to have considered more of the information available than you.
I have looked at this your way and can't see it th eway you do. Of course, I will change my mind if the person responsible tells us it was a tasteless joke, will you change yours if they say otherwise?
Why, exactly, does one immediately assume that the accolade is based within U.S. military history? Shark in the Water is also a song. Can computer game accolades not be inspired purely by pop culture? Maybe a dev was a fan of V.V. Brown?
Why, exactly, does one immediately assume that the accolade is based within U.S. military history? Shark in the Water is also a song. Can computer game accolades not be inspired purely by pop culture? Maybe a dev was a fan of V.V. Brown?
Well the ship is named the same, and that particular historical event involving the same named ship is known for one of the worst shark attacks as well. 4 days in the water and being picked off by sharks before the rest were rescued. Coincidence? Perhaps, but it seems to be a reference of a particular nature.
Uh, I never said I think they meant it as a joke, because I don't. I think it's lazy, sloppy, and careless writing based on a half-baked idea that evokes imagery they couldn't control and didn't earn.
So it's pretty hypocritical for somebody to be flinging insults like "ignorant, pig headed and judgemental" based on a straw man argument they created themselves.
Uh, I never said I think they meant it as a joke, because I don't. I think it's lazy, sloppy, and careless writing based on a half-baked idea that evokes imagery they couldn't control and didn't earn.
So it's pretty hypocritical for somebody to be flinging insults like "ignorant, pig headed and judgemental" based on a straw man argument they created themselves.
Now you're just arguing for the sake of arguing. How is it lazy, sloppy, careless writing to make a historical allusion? What does "evokes imagery they couldn't control and didn't earn" even mean?
i remember a thread about a year ago where someone pointed the same accolade out and liked it, and saw it as a mark of respect and remembrance to those that died. its all about different viewpoints.
i have no real issue with it myself. its a historical event. lots of games have references to wars and death in some way or another. some that go back thousands of years. im sure their deaths were just as unpleasant and tragic.
i personally think it should stay. perhaps some see it as tactless, perhaps some dont. end of the day nothing has happened other than some dont personally like it. i dont see that as enough to change it.
I wholeheartly agree, its all in the perspective of the audience. I don't think a mission should be deleted or modified for the sake of a few. For the most part, it helps folks who are not familiar with the WWII tragedy become aware of the horrors of war - This thread is the exact point I am making.
I rather have folks remember a tragedy than not remember it at all.
An accolade in reference to a tragic incident is not a mockery, but just that, a mere reference.
I wholeheartly agree, its all in the perspective of the audience. I don't think a mission should be deleted or modified for the sake of a few. For the most part, it helps folks who are not familiar with the WWII tragedy become aware of the horrors of war - This thread is the exact point I am making.
I rather have folks remember a tragedy than not remember it all.
An accolade in reference to a tragic incident is not a mockery, but just that, a mere reference.
Heck, I never realized it was a reference to a real thing until i got bored and did some research.
Thinking back, a lot of the history textbooks I had over my school life never mentioned the Indianapolis. I would never have known were it not for the accolade.
Why, exactly, does one immediately assume that the accolade is based within U.S. military history? Shark in the Water is also a song. Can computer game accolades not be inspired purely by pop culture? Maybe a dev was a fan of V.V. Brown?
When I first saw it, my first though was "Huh, another Accolade". Not once did I think "USS Indinapolis".
Especially since sharks have this habit of... well... being in water, and also tend to do a "frenzy" while eating sometimes.
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On top of that, Cryptic clearly isn't mocking or otherwise deriding the event in any way.
You're being a bit too sensitive about it, I think.
I have a feeling whoever wrote the mission and came up with the Accolade title only knows of the Indianapolis sinking from Quint's monologue in Jaws, but one of the things that makes that monologue so powerful is that it's all pretty much true.
All I'm saying is that here I am playing a Star Trek game, and suddenly I'm thinking about real people being bitten in half, or dying from exposure, or from delirium. Of approximately 1,200 crew members, only about 300 survived the ordeal, and out of the 900 casualties, the one-third that went down with the ship were the lucky ones.
It's a very powerful event to reference, and quite honestly the mission doesn't earn that powerful an association, which also contributes to making the fact that Cryptic uses it anyway feel... unsettling. I just think it would be better if Cryptic renamed the Accolade to something else.
With regards to it being 73 years ago, so was the Holocaust. I doubt an "Arbeit Macht Frei" accolade for freeing the Deferi from the Breen would go down too well though (nor indeed should it). What's the official expiry date or tragedy threshold for a given event with regards to it's legitimacy for off colour references? I deffinitely don't know, and I think all in all, it's easier to avoid them if they're completely unneccessary. And this from somebody with one of the most off colour sense of humour you could encounter. (I'm admittedly playing devil's advocate here)
i have no real issue with it myself. its a historical event. lots of games have references to wars and death in some way or another. some that go back thousands of years. im sure their deaths were just as unpleasant and tragic.
i personally think it should stay. perhaps some see it as tactless, perhaps some dont. end of the day nothing has happened other than some dont personally like it. i dont see that as enough to change it.
In the same mission where you murder thousands of unborn Jem'Hadar babies? I can tell you the accolade didn't shock me nearly as much.
Yeah, they could grow up to be peace loving farmers and artists and shop keepers and award winning authors for all we know. It's not like they've been geneticly bred to crush all resistance in the Alpha Quadrant because the previous version that was bred to crush resistance in general wasn't quite good enough at it. The destruction and death that would have resulted from their surviving to hatch would be far greater, and visited upon many innocents, rather than geneticly bred killing machines, sentient or (which at the time) not.
I think the OP is being a bit over-sensative too, and that Revo has the right of it.
You can find offense in it, sure, but always more important is the sentiment, the intent behind something. I don't htink this was meant as a joke or insult and stand with Revo's viewpoint on it.
You can place your own meaning on it but if that meaning doesn't match that of the authors, you're more or less looking to find offense where none was intended.
So I guess we won't be seeing a Jem'Hadar bridge officer since that would be an impossibility, right? I should space all my Jem'Hadar duty officers too. Just in case.
Exactly.
And it wasn't an "easter egg"; the whole thing is very blatant and aggressively obvious. If they really want to keep the Indianapolis thing going for the accolade, then they should reference, say, the PBY Catalina that first spotted the survivors.
Not the sharks.
Oh, now your just looking for something to whine about. Really.
Do you think of the people of Chernobyl when radiation is used in-game or any other game for that matter...
Please....
Go visit 2Chan, then come back and tell us if STO still makes you feel icky and uncomfortable.
Besides, if you are going to nitpick this accolade, there are many, many, other accolades guilty of the same offense. What about "Death from Above" where you use orbital strikes in the final mission of the Romulan series? Do you similarly protest this accolade in deference to those who died at Hiroshima, and the countless other victims of aerial bombardment? And I am sure you also note the irony wherein the last successful mission of the Indianapolis was to deliver the critical enriched uranium to Tinian island, which was subsequently detonated over Hiroshima?
The accolade did nothing of the sort. If this thread hadn't been made, you'd still be clueless about it.
Absolutely not. Your example does not reference a very specific moment in history. If that mission had been written specifically to bring to mind, say, the fire-bombing of Dresden, as "The New Link" specifically and deliberately references and attempts to mimic the Indianapolis tragedy, you'd have an argument. But it doesn't. The two things are not at all alike.
And had the accolade not been created or titled such, you would not have made this thread.
I suppose you similarly feel uncomfortable anytime someone uses the phrase "phyrric victory" as well?
So I can't mention the titanic every time the server crashes either?
Talk about over sensitivity. You must have passed out when you learned you can kill dozens of airport civilians in Call of Duty. And do you have any idea how many people play that video game?
Is this a tasteless joke? I highly doubt it. You know what I think this is? It's Star Trek. Throughout the franchise there are many references to darker days in human history, is this done to poke fun at those times? No, it's to grab your attention, turn the spotlight on and say "This. This actually happened" because if we remember, then we can learn from it. Like I said it's a constant theme, some might say one of the main points of Star Trek.
Now, NeoNoir, please read this next bit carefully, and understand I am not flaming you. You are being ignorant, pig headed and judgemental. You have looked at this from a narrow perspective and found offense and thus far have ignored other perspectives presented and you have no more information pertaining to the creation of this accolade than anyone else, though I might say, others seemed to have considered more of the information available than you.
I have looked at this your way and can't see it th eway you do. Of course, I will change my mind if the person responsible tells us it was a tasteless joke, will you change yours if they say otherwise?
More than one way to view a situation, always.
Well the ship is named the same, and that particular historical event involving the same named ship is known for one of the worst shark attacks as well. 4 days in the water and being picked off by sharks before the rest were rescued. Coincidence? Perhaps, but it seems to be a reference of a particular nature.
So it's pretty hypocritical for somebody to be flinging insults like "ignorant, pig headed and judgemental" based on a straw man argument they created themselves.
Now you're just arguing for the sake of arguing. How is it lazy, sloppy, careless writing to make a historical allusion? What does "evokes imagery they couldn't control and didn't earn" even mean?
..You Will Always Find It...
<shrug>
I wholeheartly agree, its all in the perspective of the audience. I don't think a mission should be deleted or modified for the sake of a few. For the most part, it helps folks who are not familiar with the WWII tragedy become aware of the horrors of war - This thread is the exact point I am making.
I rather have folks remember a tragedy than not remember it at all.
An accolade in reference to a tragic incident is not a mockery, but just that, a mere reference.
Heck, I never realized it was a reference to a real thing until i got bored and did some research.
Thinking back, a lot of the history textbooks I had over my school life never mentioned the Indianapolis. I would never have known were it not for the accolade.
When I first saw it, my first though was "Huh, another Accolade". Not once did I think "USS Indinapolis".
Especially since sharks have this habit of... well... being in water, and also tend to do a "frenzy" while eating sometimes.